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 Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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 Re: Maine Teachers Warned!  [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1343292 - 02/28/03 04:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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i'm more concerned with teachers pushing their views on students when they should be teaching the class.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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seti
n00b
Registered: 12/31/02
Posts: 92
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Innvertigo]
#1343325 - 02/28/03 05:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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 hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Innvertigo]
#1343346 - 02/28/03 05:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree with Innvertigo and Mr. Mushrooms on this one. Maybe teachers should have something similar to a doctor's hypocratic oath to swear to, and in it should be a promise to promote the value of thinking/acting morally, WITHOUT dictating any particular morals. At least, keep it veerrrry general. In fact I think the same should go for parenting.
It's up to each individual to develop his or her own morals, and to decide what opinion to have on any issue. Sure, it's good for us to learn early that there are plenty of different opinions, very good, but it's also good to learn early that it's our OWN job to decide what we believe about right and wrong. Kids are too impressionable and morals are too subjective for imparting them to be a teacher's job.
'Specially with all the retards teaching. 
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Innvertigo]
#1343539 - 02/28/03 06:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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come on...the frickin' kids went home crying...
Because of an opinion. Iraqi kids will come crying because their parents are dead. No big difference.
Notice ZERO news coverage of teachers backing the War on Iraq! Nothing like balanced reporting.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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 Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Swami]
#1343630 - 02/28/03 07:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Wow Swam, ignoratio elenchi again?
You're getting to be an old pro at it.
Try aiming at the topic, you'll have better results. 
Ignoratio elenchi
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 6 years, 23 days
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: ]
#1344104 - 03/01/03 12:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks for that link!
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: seti]
#1344224 - 03/01/03 04:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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ha ha...i remember that girl..that's a riot. I never said they wern't weird.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Swami]
#1344225 - 03/01/03 04:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Because of an opinion. Iraqi kids will come crying because their parents are dead.
we're not in Iraq so your point is moot.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: ]
#1344234 - 03/01/03 04:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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and i was going to have to look that up. Thanks, i don't know latin..
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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 Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Innvertigo]
#1344238 - 03/01/03 04:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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 Not a problem. Some people like to take the thread off-topic with irrelevant remarks. That doesn't prove anything other than they don't know how to defend a point.
I am fairly well versed in logical argumentation. I need it to help me understand.
Consider it a bullshit-o-meter.
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snark
dunno
Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 4
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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 Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1347887 - 03/03/03 03:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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If you're saying one doesn't need to master calculus in order to teach third grade math, I agree. But pedagogy is a field unto itself. People need both maturity and training to be good teachers. I do think that "student teaching" comprises too small a part of the education curriculum. One needs lots of supervised experience in the classroom, before going solo.
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,384
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Innvertigo]
#1348019 - 03/03/03 05:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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"unless i'm wrong, do you guys actually want teachers to teach your kids what their opinion of the world is?"
Maybe. Is their parents view of the world somehow better than their teacher's view? They should be taught all viewpoints.
Are you just objecting to their teaching the kids a viewpoint because you disagree with it? If a teacher in Nazi Germany explained to his students that persecuting jews was wrong, would you be against that?
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,384
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Innvertigo]
#1348022 - 03/03/03 05:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oh. If they're harassing kids, that's different.
I still don't see why opinions can't be laid out in the classroom. As long as the teacher isn't teaching that an opinion is the one right thing.
Kids should be taught both sides of an issue. They should be taught to debate the issue. They need to be exposed to viewpoints that differ from their parents.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Phluck]
#1348031 - 03/03/03 05:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Maybe. Is their parents view of the world somehow better than their teacher's view?
Moot point, the teacher's aren't the parents. Their job is to teach the facts. A lot of hypocrites around these days. How about if the teacher taught creatism, would you be as supporting?
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They should be taught all viewpoints.
It's not their job.
Quote:
Are you just objecting to their teaching the kids a viewpoint because you disagree with it?
No i object to teachers spreading their opinions (no matter what side they support) because with ever-plunging test scores teachers should concentrate on actually teaching the facts that kids need. I thought this was obvious but apparantly not. After school then spout away.
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If a teacher in Nazi Germany explained to his students that persecuting jews was wrong, would you be against that?
it depends on what the class is, is it math? then i'm against it. It's the parents job to teach right from wrong. I think you libbies are just agreeing with the teachers because you agree with the teacher. Would all the libbies be in support of a teacher stating that the christian cruseades were just?
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,384
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Innvertigo]
#1348038 - 03/03/03 05:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Generalizing about home-schooled kids is dumb.
Some of them will be excellent, some will be shitty, and some will fall somewhere in between. Their parents are not trained teachers, and they are certainly more likely to impose opinions on the kids. Some will be awful teachers, and will produce some of the most badly educated kids possible. Some will do a great job.
It's all relative.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Phluck]
#1348040 - 03/03/03 05:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kids should be taught both sides of an issue.
if it's taught in a history class maybe but to say that the war with Iraq is wrong or right is just editorial teaching which is what today's educational system has turned into....a joke.
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They need to be exposed to viewpoints that differ from their parents.
that's up to the parents to decide, maybe that's why home schoolers and private scholl excel.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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snark
dunno
Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 4
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: Innvertigo]
#1348064 - 03/03/03 05:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think, in a social studies class, inviting the students to examine recent news from varied perspectives is legitimate. My daughter has participated in such discussions in her high school civics class, and I like the results. It's the first time she's given serious thought to world events. Although a teacher who uses this as an opportunity to spout his own opinions is being self-indulgent, he might at times play "devil's advocate" to promote discussion.
The commissioner raises a legitimate point about sensitivity and respect. I don't see it as an attack on free speech. Yet I believe that he was mistaken to send this out as a memo to all. The pronouncement could have a "chilling effect" on classroom discussion. Also it gives an appearance of bias, since he does not cite similar problems associated with hawkish or jingoistic statements made by teachers. IMHO, it would have been better for the commissioner to quietly speak with specific teachers who had been the target of parent complaints.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 3 days, 11 hours
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: ]
#1348088 - 03/03/03 05:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks, Mr Mushrooms -- that contained quite a bit more information about what was in the Department of Education's response, but still not a full text of the letter sent. However, from what has been quoted of the letter, I still fail to see how ANYTHING in it can be considered a censure or a reprimand or a restriction or anything other than a reminder to use common sense when discussing controversial subjects (ANY controversial subject) with pre-adolescent children in a classroom environment.
I'm sincerely baffled here -- what's the big deal? Some teachers stepped over the line (porbably not realizing they were doing so), the head cheese issued a gentle reminder in the form of an overall policy letter directed globally rather than targeting any specific alleged "offenders". Hopefully those involved will now have the sense to think things through before re-opening the subject.
No black marks on anyone's record, no publicity storm, just a reminder that children's feelings can be hurt if certain things aren't handled in a professional manner. Remember, these aren't high school kids we're talking about here, they're pre-adolescents.
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 3 days, 11 hours
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: snark]
#1348114 - 03/03/03 06:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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snark writes:
My daughter has participated in such discussions in her high school civics class, and I like the results.
There's a world of difference between how to present a topic to a high schooler and how to present the same topic to a grade schooler.
Even then, there are dangers in teachers using the classroom to promote their own agenda. Many teenagers give an undue amount of weight to what a teacher says vs what some random stranger, classmate, or even their own parents say. Despite the cynicism expressed by many modern teenagers, "hero worship", conscious or unconscious, is a real phenomenon for a large percentage of other teenagers. A good teacher is well aware of this phenomenon, and takes pains to minimize it.
pinky
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: Maine Teachers Warned! [Re: snark]
#1348122 - 03/03/03 06:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think, in a social studies class, inviting the students to examine recent news from varied perspectives is legitimate
i agree. If it's in the scope of the proper subject then it is a good thing to teach about the topic of discussion, however the teacher should be neutral.
Quote:
My daughter has participated in such discussions in her high school civics class
these kids were in elementry school...a little young to evaluate such logic.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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