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 ChronicCluster
Lord Cephalopod is Reborn!
 
Registered: 04/28/10
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 Re: Death Penalty.  [Re: Awebig]
#13372785 - 10/22/10 08:12 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Since Zappa doesn't like to actually read what people write.... I'll repeat myself; I believe in working toward the prevention of brutal crime. I could care less about 'punishment' whose model is to cause suffering to the guilty. Rehabilitation is impossible without the will to rehabilitate... So I wouldn't waste time forcing it.
This. Some people just cannot be helped. Most can.
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dshow
Nomad
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First off killing them is much cheaper then supporting them their entire lives. Even if it wasnt, im sure a simple hanging rope or gun squad could do it for UBER CHEAP lol. so scratch that humanitarian bs. On top of that people who are on deathrow usually have to wait years and on top of that are not allowed to see anyone. sounds pretty good to me. Ur right if they arent 100% PROVEN KILLERS, BUT CMON ON PEOPLE. this is like oj bullshit. you know they are.
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 Awebig
BAG
Registered: 01/24/05
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Re: Death Penalty. [Re: dshow]
#13374402 - 10/23/10 02:49 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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It is the legal costs. Not the actual deed.
Last time I bought a house if cost me $600 for the lawyer. A couple hours work for him to ensure there weren't any liens we were adopting or prevented the sale and to be present signing over the deed.
I can't even imagine the lawyer bill and court time the state must pony up in able to execute a person these days. It can take decades of appeals, usually to higher courts. I betcha they cost much much more than the original trials.
Not to mention the government resources and personnel time tied up during those appeals.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Death Penalty. [Re: Awebig]
#13375414 - 10/23/10 12:03 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Awebig said:
You are trolling and hijacking this thread.
If you aren't going to take part in it... Then stay out.
My statement was pretty simple... I felt surprised... I didn't imagine the results to land as they have so far.
You should have really read my posts.. It would have answered your rude questions for the most part and you wouldn't have made yourself seem so ignorant.
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Seuss said:
The only reason that I am against the death penalty is that you cannot bring somebody back to life if you later realize that they were innocent. Eventually, if it hasn't happened already, an innocent person is going to be 'murdered' by the state. I like the idea of a supermax prison for all 'death row' inmates... 23 hours a day, isolated in a tiny cell with no physical contact with other people; no books, no TV, no computers, nothing but time and four bare walls to stare at.
I always felt the same way. Still do for the most part. But I can't ignore that even in these supermax conditions, prisoners have arranged killings that were carried out, even orders to kill a persons family.
These men need to be stopped. In this case there is very little, if any doubt that these men will conspire to commit brutal murders again.
It is a sad truth that innocent people have been executed in the past. I would hope that methods to investigate and try defendants improve to lesson that possibility.
Since Zappa doesn't like to actually read what people write.... I'll repeat myself; I believe in working toward the prevention of brutal crime. I could care less about 'punishment' whose model is to cause suffering to the guilty. Rehabilitation is impossible without the will to rehabilitate... So I wouldn't waste time forcing it.
Death, Imprisonment; any condition imposed by the state would serve society best if prevention of future brutality is the consideration... How can we prevent this person to Kill, Rob, Rape? Not; how can we make this person suffer enough so that they never do it again? There is no answer to that question.
So you are in favor of pre-emptive searches and seizures? A Minority Report type thing? Just how do you propose to prevent violent crimes by first time offenders if not by providing a vicious disincentive? Answer: You don't. You have nothing. The only method is through punishment.
See, I have clearly thought about this far more than you have and the only trolling I see is from your statement that people who disagree with you haven't sufficiently studied the issue, i.e. this:
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I am kinda surprised at the poll results so far.
I imagine this section of the site sees more folks who would really consider this issue
What do you do when somebody given a life sentence kills another inmate? Give him another life sentence? See, I have thought about it more than you.
The rehabilitation model is an abject failure. The incontrovertible evidence of that is the atrocious recidivism rates. See, I have thought about it more than you.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Death Penalty. [Re: Awebig]
#13375418 - 10/23/10 12:05 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Awebig said:
It is the legal costs. Not the actual deed.
Last time I bought a house if cost me $600 for the lawyer. A couple hours work for him to ensure there weren't any liens we were adopting or prevented the sale and to be present signing over the deed.
I can't even imagine the lawyer bill and court time the state must pony up in able to execute a person these days. It can take decades of appeals, usually to higher courts. I betcha they cost much much more than the original trials.
Not to mention the government resources and personnel time tied up during those appeals.
It's huge. It is far more expensive to execute somebody than to imprison them for life. Which is not to imply that it is the wrong thing to do.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Re: Death Penalty. [Re: Awebig] 1
#13375768 - 10/23/10 01:42 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Awebig said:
I once was yer usual liberal compassionate, believing the state should never be allowed to execute anyone, no matter what.
Now I am on the fence for many reasons. Mainly, in a profoundly complex society that is overflowing with people, with limited resources, we really shouldn't have to keep and protect a %100 PROVEN brutal killer for dozens of years just because it's inhumane to kill them. There are soooo many people who struggle through life without ever hurting anyone. Peaceful people should have the right to live in a society that removes brutal killers and ENSURES they can't commit violent crimes ever again. Sometimes the only way is to end that life.
First of all you can never be 100% sure that someone is guilty. If you don't believe me, then explain wrongful convictions. Secondly, putting someone in prison for life actually does insure that they cannot murder innocent people again.
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Even from Supermax prisons, even in solitary confinement, AB gang leaders have been able to order the killings of snitches and the like... EVEN there children and wives. These men MUST be prevented from committing violent crimes. If the only way to do that is to kill them. Do it. Kill Them, because they will kill again.
All you need to do is prevent them from having literally any contact at all. Killing them isn't necessary
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The process to determine if a convict should live or die MUST have rigid guidelines and separate from the process that convicted them. Where there is no turning back, %100 certainty of guilt is necessary.
As I stated before, 100% certainty is IMPOSSIBLe.
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For me it is about preventing the most horribly violent from being able to commit further crimes. Rehab, meh; rarely works. Punishment; I'm not big on it either. Prevention, yup... this is the way to go. Any Means Neccessary.
The death penalty doesn't prevent any crimes, and anyone who is worth their salt will tell you, just look at the statistics. The people arguing for the death penalty even concede that it isn't a deterrent, their justification is on the basis of the retributive model of justice and say that regardless of if it is effective, the death penalty should be used because it gives the murderer what they deserve.
I really think you should do at least a little bit of research on the death penalty before trying to make all these meaningless claims
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Quote:
The rehabilitation model is an abject failure. The incontrovertible evidence of that is the atrocious recidivism rates. See, I have thought about it more than you.
Zappa what evidence are you referring to? All evidence I'm aware of, and everything I learned in school suggests that recividism rates are no higher, and in some cases are actually lower, when following the rehabilitation model.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Our entire prison system is based on the rehabilitation model and recidivism rates are atrocious.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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 How blind are you? None of our prisons are based on rehabilitation. We are almost purely retributive.
What's atrocious is the amount of ignorance displayed in that statement. Honestly, where do you even get that information? No politician wants rehabilitation because it goes against the idea of being "tough on crime" If we were rehabilitative, how do you explain constantly cutting funding for rehabilitation programs on top of being already severely underfunded? Not to mention Truth in Sentencing, labeling community based treatment (e.g. probation) as ineffective and cutting funding for it actually making it ineffective, when in fact community-based treatment rates of recividism are no higher than ones in prison. In fact, community-based is much better because it gives convicts ties to the community, allowing them to reintegrate into society better.
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Edited by learningtofly (10/23/10 02:42 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Almost all of them are. You just make shit up. It was adopted decades ago and every prison has programs. If the punishment model were adopted no prison would bother with education or rehab or any of that shit, which is almost always a complete waste of time and money.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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It was adopted decades ago and every prison has programs. If the punishment model were adopted no prison would bother with education or rehab or any of that shit, which is almost always a complete waste of time and money.
They don't. They barely fund any of them. And they actually work much better if you actually give them proper funding. Rehabilitation model died out in the 70s.
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Edited by learningtofly (10/23/10 02:44 PM)
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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If you're so worked up on prevention why don't you bother looking to the cause of crime rather than the consequences of it?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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I'm sure you are going to tell me it's money. Not enough money spent rehabilitating scumbag prisoners and not enough money spent pandering asshole losers. Maybe if we give everybody a guaranteed stipend no matter whether they worked or not there would be no crime. No.
A significant portion of the population is going to turn into complete scummy assholes no matter how much you give them. That corresponds almost perfectly with the current population of offenders. Crimes of desperation are probably far rarer than crimes of envy. And just general scumminess.
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learningtofly
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No, we have enough money, we just spend it on stupid things. Rehabilitation is important because the vast majority of prisoners are going to get out of prison, and we have to be prepared for them. It's evident we aren't considering that 2/3 of people in prison are repeat offenders.
Sure, we spend a LITTLE money on rehab, but it's a very very insignificant amount.
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F0SS1L
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-Imprisoning someone for life is cheaper than killing them
-You can never prove 100% guilt. And pursuing that goal, or even 99% guilt is a direct cause of my previous point. So good luck justifying state sanctioned murders at the cost of tax payers.
-Ineffective crime deterrent.
-Arbitrary application: I'm out of town atm so I don't have a source for this, but in some cases murderers of a dozen or more people have escaped capital punishment while others convicted of a single murder have been sentenced to death.
-May be a non-issue to some, but you can't take a moral high ground in support of death.
The only good argument for death is that it's cheap to put a bullet in a person's head. Unfortunately that's not the way it works.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Death Penalty. [Re: F0SS1L]
#13376210 - 10/23/10 03:30 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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What do you do to a prisoner doing life without parole who murders a guard or another inmate?
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
What do you do to a prisoner doing life without parole who murders a guard or another inmate?
What do you do to someone who tortures, rapes, and kills someone? Do you have the state rape them to death?
You can only escalate punishment so far.
From what I understand, you are suggesting we kill people that we cannot control. Perhaps you should be asking what created this monster in the first place
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Edited by learningtofly (10/23/10 04:02 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
What do you do to a prisoner doing life without parole who murders a guard or another inmate?
What do you do to someone who tortures, rapes, and kills someone? Do you have the state rape them to death?
You can only escalate punishment so far.
From what I understand, you are suggesting we kill people that we cannot control. Perhaps you should be asking what created this monster in the first place
If you mean "cannot control to stop them from killing", yes, I do. And if you think you can stop murderers and psychopaths through compassion you are an incredibly egregious, and particularly dangerous, type of fool.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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No, I recognize that some people's brains are just fucked up. However, I don't think that killing them is going to make society any safer than if they are already in solitary.
As to those who can orchestrate killings from inside prison, that's a minority.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Minority? Of course it's a fucking minority. So what? And 24/7 solitary is not allowed.
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