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Anonymous #1 said:
If we wernt over there the terrorists would have an easier time recruiting more terrorists.

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Anonymous #1 said:
Ya whatever you say there kiddo

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Anonymous #2 said:

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Anonymous #1 said:
Ya whatever you say there kiddo

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im not a kid fag

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Anonymous #6 said:

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Anonymous #1 said:
Ya whatever you say there kiddo

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im not a kid fag

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Anonymous #5 said:
It could be argued (and has) that the US is the leading terrorist vehicle in the world. I think atleast we have definitely engaged in terrorism. We attacked Nicaragua repeatedly in the 80's with undue force, targeted strictly civilian areas, and disregarded the sanctions from the UN asking us to cease.

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Anonymous #3 said:

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Anonymous #5 said:
It could be argued (and has) that the US is the leading terrorist vehicle in the world. I think atleast we have definitely engaged in terrorism. We attacked Nicaragua repeatedly in the 80's with undue force, targeted strictly civilian areas, and disregarded the sanctions from the UN asking us to cease.

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I agree with your "at least," i.e. terrorism has been funded and abetted, disagree with your "is."

The horrors committed in South America need to be understood in the context of the Cold War; they were horrific and massive over-reactions to the perceived threat of communism, an awful chapter of a war for the world's very soul.

EDIT: And I'd say actually "engaged in" is not quite right. We have funded terrorism, have provided the training and the motivation, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of american servicemen committing terrorism. I am not saying that's a good defense or that funding terrorism is somehow less reprehensible than committing it, but I believe in speaking precisely.

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Anonymous #6 said:
Terrorist= freedom fighters, patriots, rebels, or whatever you don't want to call them because it is not scary enough.

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Anonymous #1 said:
Ya whatever you say there kiddo

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im not a kid fag

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btw: wonderful troll thread man if this isn't a troll thread...... you probably look like this guy

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Anonymous #10 said:
Some people are so fucking bought into the whole "America is the greatest" shit it makes me want to throw up. Blind ass mother fuckers who just go along with what is explained to them by an authority deserves looking the way they do when they open their mouths. It's to bad there are millions of people who don't fucking get it. They just let shit happen because it doesn't bother them. They just believe what they are told because it's easier to accept that than look into it themselves and disagree because then they might feel that they have to do something about it. As a collective the American people FAIL. 

America is not good and not free. They are good at telling you that you are free all day long, but their actions SCREAM that they want to control you as Americans. What makes you think they aren't hardcore doing it for their own interests in another country during a war that we started to people that they don't have to care about?

Oh yes, we started it. We put it into motion years ago.

War is not the answer to violence. We jumped on that shit faster than we jumped on Katrina. We were ready to go fuck shit up and were glad for the opportunity. How enlightened and how noble are we. Freedom fighters my ass. Sheep and murderers is more like it. Sad.

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Here are a hundred quotes by decent people that say what I'm trying to say perfectly. Try to find one that you can understand.

1. “As far as I am concerned, war itself is immoral.” -U.S. WWII General Omar Bradley
2. “The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home.” -James Madison
3. “If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” -James Madison
4. “No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. ” -James Madison
5. “Of all the enemies of public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.” -James Madison
6. “The executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question, whether there is or is not cause for declaring war.” -James Madison
7. “It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.” -James Madison
8. “Having seen the people of all other nations bowed down to the earth under the wars and prodigalities of their rulers, I have cherished their opposites, peace, economy, and riddance of public debt, believing that these were the high road to public as well as private prosperity and happiness.” -Thomas Jefferson
9. “The most successful war seldom pays for its losses.” -Thomas Jefferson
10. “The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.” -Thomas Jefferson
11. “Governments constantly choose between telling lies and fighting wars, with the end result always being the same. One will always lead to the other.” -Thomas Jefferson
12. “I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind.” -Thomas Jefferson
13. “Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it.” -Thomas Jefferson
14. “If there is one principle more deeply rooted in the mind of every American, it is that we should have nothing to do with conquest.” -Thomas Jefferson
15. “Conquest is not in our principles. It is inconsistent with our government.” -Thomas Jefferson
16. “War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.” -Thomas Jefferson
17. “A coward is much more exposed to quarrels than a man of spirit.” -Thomas Jefferson
18. “Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto.” -Thomas Jefferson
19. “War…is as much a punishment to the punisher as to the sufferer.” -Thomas Jefferson
20. “I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be.” -Thomas Jefferson
21. “Over grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty.” -George Washington
22. “The constitution vests the power of declaring war in Congress; therefore no offensive expedition of importance can be undertaken until after they shall have deliberated upon the subject and authorized such a measure.” -George Washington
23. “Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.” -George Washington
24. “It is our true policy to steer clear of entangling alliances with any portion of the foreign world.” -George Washington
25. “Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force…Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.” -George Washington
26. “Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all.” -George Washington
27. “My first wish is to see this plague of mankind, war, banished from the earth.” -George Washington
28. “Wars are not paid for in wartime, the bill comes later.” -Benjamin Franklin
29. “A highwayman is as much a robber when he plunders in a gang as when single; and a nation that makes an unjust war is only a great gang.” -Benjamin Franklin
30. “I hope….that mankind will at length, as they call themselves responsible creatures, have the reason and sense enough to settle their differences without cutting throats…” -Benjamin Franklin
31. “When will mankind be convinced and agree to settle their difficulties by arbitration?” -Benjamin Franklin
32. “All wars are follies, very expensive and very mischievous ones.” -Benjamin Franklin
33. “There never was a good war or a bad peace.” -Benjamin Franklin
34. “Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” -Benjamin Franklin
35. “Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.” -John Adams
36. “Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak…” -John Adams
37. “A people free to choose will always choose peace.” -Ronald Reagan
38. “The defense policy of the United States is based on a simple premise: The United States does not start fights. We will never be an aggressor.” -Ronald Reagan
39. “History teaches that war begins when governments believe the price of aggression is cheap.” -Ronald Reagan
40. “Peace is not absence of conflict, it is the ability to handle conflict by peaceful means.” -Ronald Reagan
41. “…no mother would ever willingly sacrifice her sons for territorial gain, for economic advantage, for ideology.” -Ronald Reagan
42. “People do not make wars; governments do.” -Ronald Reagan
43. “We must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women.” -Ronald Reagan
44. “I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
45. “How far can you go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without?” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
46. “We seek peace, knowing that peace is the climate of freedom.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
47. “We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
48. “Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
49. “You can’t have this kind of war. There just aren’t enough bulldozers to scrape the bodies off the streets.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
50. “War settles nothing.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
51. “There is no glory in battle worth the blood it costs.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
52. “We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
53. “Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
54. “When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
55. “This world of ours… must avoid becoming a community of dreadful fear and hate, and be, instead, a proud confederation of mutual trust and respect.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
56. “I think that people want peace so much that one of these days government had better get out of their way and let them have it.” -Dwight D. Eisenhower
57. “Statism needs war; a free country does not. Statism survives by looting; a free country survives by producing.” -Ayn Rand
58. “Do not ever say that the desire to ‘do good’ by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives.” -Ayn Rand
59. “No protracted war can fail to endanger the freedom of a democratic country.” -Alexis de Tocqueville
60. “All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.” -Alexis de Tocqueville
61. “If we don’t stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, we’re going to have a serious problem coming down the road.” -George W. Bush, before becoming president and doing exactly what he promised not to.
62. “Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don’t attack each other. Free nations don’t develop weapons of mass destruction.” -George W. Bush (I wish he had governed according to the principles in this quotation.)
63. “War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it.” -George Orwell
64. “Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.” -George Orwell
65. “The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labor.” -George Orwell
66. “Political language… is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable.” -George Orwell
67. “War is a way of shattering to pieces…materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable and… too intelligent.” -George Orwell
68. “All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.” -George Orwell
69. “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” -George Orwell
70. “What is absurd and monstrous about war is that men who have no personal quarrel should be trained to murder one another in cold blood.” -Aldous Huxley
71. “A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny.” -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
72. “The next war … may well bury Western civilization forever.” -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
73. “In all history there is no war which was not hatched by the governments, the governments alone, independent of the interests of the people, to whom war is always pernicious even when successful.” -Leo Tolstoy
74. “A man who says that no patriot should attack the war until it is over…is saying no good son should warn his mother of a cliff until she has fallen.” -G.K. Chesterton
75. “War is the greatest plague that can affect humanity; it destroys religion, it destroys states, it destroys families. Any scourge is preferable to it.” -Martin Luther
76. “How vile and despicable war seems to me! I would rather be hacked to pieces than take part in such an abominable business.” -Albert Einstein
77. “It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.” -Albert Einstein
78. “There is no way to peace. Peace is the way.” -The Mahatma Gandhi
79. “What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?” -The Mahatma Gandhi
80. “Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary.” -The Mahatma Gandhi
81. “Liberty and democracy become unholy when their hands are dyed red with innocent blood.” -The Mahatma Gandhi
82. “I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.” -The Mahatma Gandhi
83. “If we don’t stop behaving like the British Empire, we will end up like the British Empire.” -Pat Buchanan
84. “All forms of violence, especially war, are totally unacceptable as means to settle disputes between and among nations, groups and persons.” -The Dalai Lama
85. “The best defense is no offense.” -Dr. Ivan Eland
86. “It is not enough to say we must not wage war. It is necessary to love peace and sacrifice for it.” -Martin Luther King, Jr.
87. “The chain reaction of evil–wars producing more wars — must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.” -Martin Luther King, Jr.
88. “We have guided missiles and misguided men.” -Martin Luther King, Jr.
89. “The bombs in Vietnam explode at home; they destroy the hopes and possibilities for a decent America.” -Martin Luther King, Jr.
90. “Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal.” -Martin Luther King, Jr.
91. “The greatest purveyor of violence in the world today is my own government.” -Martin Luther King, Jr.
92. “‘Emergencies’ have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.” -F.A. Hayek
93. “The essence of so-called war prosperity; it enriches some by what it takes from others. It is not rising wealth but a shifting of wealth and income.” -Ludwig von Mises
94. “Economically considered, war and revolution are always bad business.” -Ludwig von Mises
95. “The attainment of the economic aims of man presupposes peace.” -Ludwig von Mises
96. “History has witnessed the failure of many endeavors to impose peace by war, cooperation by coercion, unanimity by slaughtering dissidents…. A lasting order cannot be established by bayonets.” -Ludwig von Mises
97. “War prosperity is like the prosperity that an earthquake or a plague brings.” -Ludwig von Mises
98. “War…is harmful, not only to the conquered but to the conqueror.” -Ludwig von Mises
99. “Society has arisen out of the works of peace; the essence of society is peacemaking. Peace and not war is the father of all things.” -Ludwig von Mises
100. “Whoever wants peace among nations must seek to limit the state and its influence most strictly.” -Ludwig von Mises

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Anonymous #1 said:
So tell me why the gov wants us in the middle east? It's not like were getting any oil or resources

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these people are tards.  We're in the middle east because a pack of animals got aboard airplanes on september 11th, 2001.  They killed the pilots and slammed these planes into buildings/the ground in PA.  I supposrt the war on the people behind this though That's what we have soldiers for is to get kill people.

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Anonymous #9 said:
Here it from directly from the blood thirsty war monger's mouth.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11

Watch 1:10 - 1:20

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I agree Iraq was a bad move it's called WAR, we fucked up, tough shit.

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Anonymous #9 said:
Really it's called war?  No it's called an invasion on a sovereign country and the murdering of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.  You're a fuck up, you can eat shit

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Great debate skillz

I bet if your mom was murdered in the WTC you'd sing the same tune right? "Let's just let it go, they only killed my mom"

Fuck that pussy shit.

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Anonymous #1 said:
So tell me why the gov wants us in the middle east? It's not like were getting any oil or resources

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Anonymous #7 said:

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Anonymous #1 said:
So tell me why the gov wants us in the middle east? It's not like were getting any oil or resources

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Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy.

How do you figure that is sustained considering trade deficits and ever raising debt of the USA?

The whole system is basically world scale Mafia operation. Every country pinch in to sustain USA in return USA don't fuck with your county and even get a reward sometimes if you do the "right thing".

Hence it is very tough job to be an US president keeping everyone in check, that's also why no president can ever make any radical changes in foreign policy.

For example Sadam stopped trading oil in dollars prior to the invasion, and a completely plausible reason for Bush to attack Iraq is to keep the petrol dollar system going, and also deter other countries such as Iran from doing the same thing.

Anyhow the system is complex and fragile, decent is not tolerated. But all the glory to the US for being able to sustain such a broken system for so long.

Because another way to look at it is that USA are the greatest alchemists in all time, because one is able to transform paper to any goods in the world, gold, oil, cars, anything, just by applying some green paint to the paper.

And if you are US president, would you not do anything, sacrifice any desert country or few thousand soldiers in order to keep the system going and feeding 300 million americans? Ofc. you would because that's your job as president to serve your country.

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Anonymous #8 said:

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Anonymous #7 said:

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Anonymous #1 said:
So tell me why the gov wants us in the middle east? It's not like were getting any oil or resources

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Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy.

How do you figure that is sustained considering trade deficits and ever raising debt of the USA?

The whole system is basically world scale Mafia operation. Every country pinch in to sustain USA in return USA don't fuck with your county and even get a reward sometimes if you do the "right thing".

Hence it is very tough job to be an US president keeping everyone in check, that's also why no president can ever make any radical changes in foreign policy.

For example Sadam stopped trading oil in dollars prior to the invasion, and a completely plausible reason for Bush to attack Iraq is to keep the petrol dollar system going, and also deter other countries such as Iran from doing the same thing.

Anyhow the system is complex and fragile, decent is not tolerated. But all the glory to the US for being able to sustain such a broken system for so long.

Because another way to look at it is that USA are the greatest alchemists in all time, because one is able to transform paper to any goods in the world, gold, oil, cars, anything, just by applying some green paint to the paper.

And if you are US president, would you not do anything, sacrifice any desert country or few thousand soldiers in order to keep the system going and feeding 300 million americans? Ofc. you would because that's your job as president to serve your country.

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I had a link that proves this all to be bullshit but don't want to waste my time finding it, this guy holds the bearing of truth so it's not my job.  Sources etc.

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Anonymous #9 said:
Really it's called war?  No it's called an invasion on a sovereign country and the murdering of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.  You're a fuck up, you can eat shit

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For example Sadam stopped trading oil in dollars prior to the invasion, and a completely plausible reason for Bush to attack Iraq is to keep the petrol dollar system going, and also deter other countries such as Iran from doing the same thing.

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...
neighboring countries into obedience then you are the good guy.
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War is war, different methods, same goal, terrorist is just a new label on people that has shit we want

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Anonymous #3 said:

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...
neighboring countries into obedience then you are the good guy.
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War is war, different methods, same goal, terrorist is just a new label on people that has shit we want

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I'd like to think that no one thinks America is the "good guy" on this one, it's a matter of weighing the good (no moar Saddam) versus the bad (hundreds of thousands of dead people and a playground for international terrorism).

See, that's the only thing we differ on. I understand that terrorism can operate at a state level, Soviet state terror is a good example.

I disagree though that you or anyone else (gov't included) can just redefine "terrorism" at will (and I think you're talking about perhaps attempts at doing so by previous administrations, or even this one)

Quite simply:

The US invades your country, so you kill a soldier in a humvee with a roadside bomb. It's not terrorism just because you don't have a uniform and a humvee of your own, that's just asymmetrical warfare in my book. That's fucking people up that fucked your country up.

You set off a bomb in someone else's mosque because you disagree with them, THAT is terrorism.

Do you see the distinction I'm trying to make?

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I do truly believe that the people that led us into Iraq via deception, things they knew were lies were trying to do the right thing. I believe that they believed that they could bring democracy to Iraq in a straightforward manner.

I do not believe in evil. I believe in stupid.

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You set off a bomb in someone else's mosque because you disagree with them, THAT is terrorism.

Do you see the distinction I'm trying to make?

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Definition from dictionary:

terrorism |ˈterəˌrizəm|
noun
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Let's not redefine terrorism.

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Anonymous #9 said:
this whole thread agree's with you and is back up by well known facts U.S. has been a state sponsor and exporter of terrorism since the Vietnam War.



right? 

LOL

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this is sad/retarded.  What would you rather us have done after 9/11, wrote them thank you cards?

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Anonymous #12 said:
We're freeing nations of people from oppression, and even though there are casualties in the process, and resouces to be had, it's a means to a better quality of living for those people who yearn for freedom.

Some might say oh that's not your place America while they sit idley by and look the other way, which is one thing we will not do, nor apologize for! It's short sighted pigeon holers who make us look like we have the wrong intentions.

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Anonymous #12 said:
We're freeing nations of people from oppression

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Anonymous #9 said:

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Anonymous #12 said:
We're freeing nations of people from oppression

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That is funny.


Your rules suck, we are going to come and kill some of you to make you realize how much better our rules are, I guess rulz is rulz.

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Anonymous #8 said:

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Anonymous #12 said:
We're freeing nations of people from oppression, and even though there are casualties in the process, and resouces to be had, it's a means to a better quality of living for those people who yearn for freedom.

Some might say oh that's not your place America while they sit idley by and look the other way, which is one thing we will not do, nor apologize for! It's short sighted pigeon holers who make us look like we have the wrong intentions.

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yea this has nothing to do with why we went to war though

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Anonymous #12 said:
We're freeing nations of people from oppression, and even though there are casualties in the process, and resouces to be had, it's a means to a better quality of living for those people who yearn for freedom.

Some might say oh that's not your place America while they sit idley by and look the other way, which is one thing we will not do, nor apologize for! It's short sighted pigeon holers who make us look like we have the wrong intentions.

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The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

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Anonymous #12 said:
Hitler? Hitler who wanted to create the ultimate Aryan race? America  frees people from murderous oppressors and helps to build their societies up against those who pose a threat to everyone, how can you even connect the two without using rhetorical propaganda plz.

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Anonymous #12 said:
I'm a

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