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 ModusPwnd
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Registered: 07/08/10
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 Re: Solar panels on cars  [Re: karma35]
#13041615 - 08/12/10 03:38 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong -- I'm not bashing solar here. Solar has it's place, but the top of your automobile ain't it :-)
Agreed, this is clearly the case. The closest we will get to solar cars is cars with great battery that get charged by large stationary arrays of solar panels.
Why would we want to put the solar panel right on the car? Thats a silly thing to do.
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bbl337
genetic material is Ar based
Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 7,008
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Re: Solar panels on cars [Re: karma35]
#13041618 - 08/12/10 03:38 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
karma35 said:
Heh. Every year or so there's another story about MIT or Caltech or [insert university here] coming out with some new solar panel prototype that will increase efficiency by xx%. This has been going on for decades, but it never seems to materialize into a product that you can actually but.
Not that it matters in this case though: There's a limit to how much energy you can get from the sun over a given surface area, and it's around 2500 watts in the two square meters you have available on the top of your car. This isn't an engineering problem; it's a fundamental limit. There's just not any more energy than that coming out of the sun.
So even if someone managed to design solar panels with 100% efficiency, you're only going to get 2500 watt-hours mounting them on your car.
It takes 70,000 watt-hours worth of gas to drive for an hour, and you have 2500 watt-hours *at best* coming from your solar panels.
Even if you manage to build some super-sleek vehicle that reduces the energy need by a third (say, to 25,000 watt-hours over the course of an hour), you're still an entire order of magnitude short with your 100% efficient solar panels: 25,000 watt-hours needed, 2500 watt-hours generated.
If you've ever seen the solar-powered "cars" that come out of the tech schools (or independent inventors), they're a far cry from what you think of when you imagine getting in a car with a friends or family and driving to the store for groceries.
Running anything like today's cars on solar is not just impractical; it's totally impossible.
Don't get me wrong -- I'm not bashing solar here. Solar has it's place, but the top of your automobile ain't it :-)
your gas to electric conversion is faulty although I don't disagree with you overall. Gas engines are about 20% efficient for the "eco" mobiles and the ac induction numerous phase motors that companies like tesla use are well into the 90% efficiency. IF you were to say solar panels became 100% efficient and could store that power 100% efficiently when gas would require 70k watt hours the electric motor would require approx 15,555 watt hours to do the same job
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JT
Registered: 03/01/07
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Re: Solar panels on cars [Re: bbl337]
#13041621 - 08/12/10 03:39 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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However, some authors consider that the successful Brazilian ethanol model is sustainable only in Brazil due to its advanced agri-industrial technology and its enormous amount of arable land available;[7] while for other authors it is a solution only for some countries in the tropical zone of Latin America, the Caribbean, and Africa.[8][9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil
so it's possible..but only under good conditions.
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karma35
Stranger
Registered: 09/07/07
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Quote:
Nativeinabush said:
Whoa man so many numbers. You make a good point.
I'm not necessarily saying that we need to do this right now. We could give it 20-30 years for the technology to get there. But we will eventually get there.
In 20-30 years it won't matter, because we'll be out of oil anyway, and then there won't be anything to fight over :-)
Look at the car in the photo pictured above. Something like that is typically built using panels of around 20% efficiency (standard commercially available panels). With 40% efficient panels -- the best anyone has ever done in a lab setting -- you're not going to end up with something that looks fundamentally different. Maybe with 100% efficient panels you might start to have something resembling a car, but if the history is any guide, you're going to need to give it more like 200-300 years, rather than 20-30.
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WakeboardrB
Pepe Silvia
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Re: Solar panels on cars [Re: JT]
#13041630 - 08/12/10 03:41 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
JT said:
ethanol by itself is great, but it's got problems too. making ethanol takes a ton of energy, and it uses up food resources. we are one of the top corn producing nations in the world, but consumer prices for corn products have still risen considerably over the last 5-10 years as the demand for ethanol has grown.
Corn is a relatively poor crop for the production of Ethanol. Brazil uses Sugar Cane and certain switch blade grasses that can produce much higher levels of Ethanol than corn can.
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Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.
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karma35
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Re: Solar panels on cars [Re: bbl337]
#13041663 - 08/12/10 03:49 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
bbl337 said:
your gas to electric conversion is faulty although I don't disagree with you overall. Gas engines are about 20% efficient for the "eco" mobiles and the ac induction numerous phase motors that companies like tesla use are well into the 90% efficiency. IF you were to say solar panels became 100% efficient and could store that power 100% efficiently when gas would require 70k watt hours the electric motor would require approx 15,555 watt hours to do the same job
Yeah, the numbers were admittedly off-the-cuff and I expected they would be somewhat inaccurate, but they paint the general picture: The energy that we can currently get from solar isn't even in the same league as gas, and even in the best case solar scenario (100% efficient panels), we're still not even particularly close.
Unfortunately, I fear "eco" cars are stillborn. Where's the money going to come from? We have 250 million gas-burning vehicles in this country, and we're fundamentally bankrupt. Maybe if we had concentrated on building eco-cars from the start we could have done it, but it's a bit too late now.
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bbl337
genetic material is Ar based
Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 7,008
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Re: Solar panels on cars [Re: JT]
#13041672 - 08/12/10 03:52 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
JT said:
However, some authors consider that the successful Brazilian ethanol model is sustainable only in Brazil due to its advanced agri-industrial technology and its enormous amount of arable land available;[7] while for other authors it is a solution only for some countries in the tropical zone of Latin America, the Caribbean, and Africa.[8][9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil
so it's possible..but only under good conditions.
They're also developing tech to make bio based diesels from random weeds along with ethanol from them too. They're not perfected yet, but they do work so it's not just theory
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TheCityBeef
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I've always had this idea. What if you put some sort of generator's on all 4 wheels. when the car roll's, all 4 wheels produce electricity for the car.
Quote:
Corn is a relatively poor crop for the production of Ethanol
Btw the last thing we need is Corn. Look at your supermarket its all corn all repackaged even down to the meat and the milk.
Fuck you Global asswholes and your Fucking corn you corn pushin motherfuckers.
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
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Re: Solar panels on cars [Re: bbl337]
#13041690 - 08/12/10 03:57 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
bbl337 said:
None of that engine charges the battery crap, just save the energy done by braking
It does.
It uses the energy produced by braking and it charges the battery, it's called regenertive breaking I think. I also shift to breaking mode when approaching a light or whatever, which is like downshifting, and that uses the resistance to charge the batts and slow down.
My engine also totally shuts off when I stop, slow down or even go downhill.
I can also go to 60 in less than 11 seconds... it's not a corvette, but it's pretty peppy. I have no problems getting into traffic, and I laugh at people who think they need "race car" performance.
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bbl337
genetic material is Ar based
Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 7,008
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Quote:
TheCityBeef said:
I've always had this idea. What if you put some sort of generator's on all 4 wheels. when the car roll's, all 4 wheels produce electricity for the car.
Quote:
Corn is a relatively poor crop for the production of Ethanol
Btw the last thing we need is Corn. Look at your supermarket its all corn all repackaged even down to the meat and the milk.
Fuck you Global asswholes and your Fucking corn you corn pushin motherfuckers.
you need a lesson in physics, won't work.
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said:
Quote:
bbl337 said:
None of that engine charges the battery crap, just save the energy done by braking
It does.
It uses the energy produced by braking and it charges the battery, it's called regenertive breaking I think. I also shift to breaking mode when approaching a light or whatever, which is like downshifting, and that uses the resistance to charge the batts and slow down.
My engine also totally shuts off when I stop, slow down or even go downhill.
I can also go to 60 in less than 11 seconds... it's not a corvette, but it's pretty peppy. I have no problems getting into traffic, and I laugh at people who think they need "race car" performance.
I know that's one of the ways they get power and yes, that name is correct. And, the fastest clocked times I've seen for a prius is about 10 seconds. And, I do need the "race car" performance. I track day my car - a lot. If I just needed fuel economy and comfort an e320 cdi bluetech woulda been my choice
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
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Re: Solar panels on cars [Re: bbl337]
#13041721 - 08/12/10 04:06 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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The best part is that I care about my car about as much as most people care about what brand of shoelaces they have. It goes from A to B faster than walking, has air conditioning, and gets 400+ miles off a $20 full tank. I never understood man's fascination with inanimate modes of transportation.
Also, it's all paid off and still worth $20,000!
I can't wait to sell it when gas is $5 a gallon. 
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Ima Trooper
Chilldog Extraordinaire
Registered: 02/21/08
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Quote:
Nativeinabush said:
twig, just because there isnt good weather doesnt mean it cant work. While the car is parked somewhere on a nice day it would charge the batteries and store it so it becomes potential energy. And that ebergy would be able to run the car for a day or two.
Modus, they are not too heavy, And yes they are expensive but it would be a gradual thing. And tell me, how do we hurt the environment? The sun is an unlimited amount of energy source. Oh an, how do we consume gas? Thats the whole point of the whole thing.
The only problem with that is that batteries are extremely heavy. Ever changed a car battery? Most are anywhere from 20-40lbs. And it takes lots of those batteries to be able to hold enough of a charge to power a car.
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OP is now RP! Read about it here!
"Its moving of its own accord...and I like that in a shirt!"
deCypher said:
Schizophrenia beats dining alone, you know.
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 Az0th
quantum transfiguration
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 53,411
Loc: The Void
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Quote:
WakeboardrB said:
Solar panels are nowhere near efficient enough to provide enough power to drive the average passenger vehicle. It's not a fucking government conspiracy, it's just that the technology just not there yet.
This.
We are very close though... solar panel technology has come a REALLY LONG WAY in the past 10 years.
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~Thought Creates Reality~
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karma35
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Registered: 09/07/07
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Quote:
TheCityBeef said:
I've always had this idea. What if you put some sort of generator's on all 4 wheels. when the car roll's, all 4 wheels produce electricity for the car.
This is known as a "perpetual motion machine". :-)
While it would indeed be cool if someone built one -- and people have been trying for centuries -- it unfortunately violates the laws of thermodynamics.
To quote Eddington:
"The law that entropy always increases holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation. "
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Re: Solar panels on cars [Re: twighead]
#13041782 - 08/12/10 04:18 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
twighead said:
there are already solar powered cars.
well, kinda...
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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bbl337
genetic material is Ar based
Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 7,008
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said:
The best part is that I care about my car about as much as most people care about what brand of shoelaces they have. It goes from A to B faster than walking, has air conditioning, and gets 400+ miles off a $20 full tank. I never understood man's fascination with inanimate modes of transportation.
Also, it's all paid off and still worth $20,000!
I can't wait to sell it when gas is $5 a gallon.
You get over 60 miles per gallon? Do you move at a crawl?
Also, it's the care for something you own, spend a lot of time in (for many of us) and some people thoroughly enjoy going fast. I took off all of my cars "LOOK AT ME!" parts, sold them, and put that $ towards performance. Some of us enjoy going fast
My car is also worth more now than when I bought it, and I'm debating getting an old porsche 944 to restore. You're saying if you had an awesome car you wouldn't enjoy it?
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Ima Trooper
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Re: Solar panels on cars [Re: bbl337]
#13041811 - 08/12/10 04:25 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've been telling my mom (who drives a ford taurus automatic and gets like 17mpg) to get an 89-91 civic sedan. Way back in 1989-91, before all the electric/hybrid cars came out, me and my friends were getting 40mpg. In a car that now will probably cost you less than $2000.
Well, my friend was getting 40mpg. I was getting 30, but I had a DOHC ZC engine swap in my CRX lol.
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OP is now RP! Read about it here!
"Its moving of its own accord...and I like that in a shirt!"
deCypher said:
Schizophrenia beats dining alone, you know.
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bbl337
genetic material is Ar based
Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 7,008
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Quote:
Ima Trooper said:
I've been telling my mom (who drives a ford taurus automatic and gets like 17mpg) to get an 89-91 civic sedan. Way back in 1989-91, before all the electric/hybrid cars came out, me and my friends were getting 40mpg. In a car that now will probably cost you less than $2000.
Well, my friend was getting 40mpg. I was getting 30, but I had a DOHC ZC engine swap in my CRX lol.
I think it was jalopnik that had an article on this. Light weigh + small engines = fuel efficient. Plus, there are TONS of cheap aftermarket parts for the crx so if anything breaks you can replace or upgrade it dirt cheap
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karma35
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Re: Solar panels on cars [Re: Az0th]
#13041852 - 08/12/10 04:30 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said:
We are very close though... solar panel technology has come a REALLY LONG WAY in the past 10 years.
Timeline of solar cells:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_solar_cells
Key events:
1883: ~1% efficiency achieved in a lab
1954: 6% efficiency achieved in a lab
1955: 2% efficient cells commercially available
1959: 10% efficient cells commercially available
1960: 14% efficiency achieved in a lab
1985: 20% efficiency achieved in a lab
1994: 30% efficiency achieved in a lab
2007: 40% efficiency achieved in a lab
2010: 42% efficiency achieved in a lab, 20% efficiency commercially available.
Extrapolating between 1994 and 2007, we might have hit around 35% in a lab in 2000, and maybe 15-18% efficient cells commercially available.
So we've gained maybe 5% in the lab over the last 10 years, and 2-3% commercially.
To say we've come a "REALLY LONG WAY" is a bit optimistic even if you go back 30 years. To say it about the last 10 years is bordering on delusional :-)
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
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Re: Solar panels on cars [Re: bbl337]
#13041857 - 08/12/10 04:31 PM (2 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
bbl337 said:
You get over 60 miles per gallon? Do you move at a crawl?
Also, it's the care for something you own, spend a lot of time in (for many of us) and some people thoroughly enjoy going fast. I took off all of my cars "LOOK AT ME!" parts, sold them, and put that $ towards performance. Some of us enjoy going fast
My car is also worth more now than when I bought it, and I'm debating getting an old porsche 944 to restore. You're saying if you had an awesome car you wouldn't enjoy it?
About 22 bucks or so gets me 10 gallons, or a full tank. I get 42 or so MPG which goes ~420 miles. I wish I got 60 miles a gallon... the best I've done was 52 from NJ to Virginia. I drive at the speed limit, but I accelerate to that limit rapidly and then coast in cruise control.
And to me, there is no 'awesome car'. I look for air conditioning, comfort and fuel economy. If I had to choose any car out there, I'd probably take a top of the line Tesla Roadster because I hate using gas at all and they look badass. If my plans go as scheduled, I should be able to afford one soon enough.
If it helps, when I was a teenager I liked Grand Nationals.
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