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Yellow, had my second trip last night, 5 middle size shrooms (can't weigh'em yet) and I'm very confused about the psychedelic experience; my question is basically what is it that people "see"? I'm finding it hard to describe, but I appart from the particular theme of the trip I feel like I can, for instance since it's something many wouldn't do I suppose, talk to my parents while at the peak (I mean literally, not as if in thought) because the reality of the experience has nothing to do with visuals. Essentially the tone of the world shifts radically. No visuals at all, I'm just bound to experience it (and there's a contradictory feeling which I think I understand that it's real because self-evident and yet "a learning ride", a species of real) in a different tone. Last night I think what best desribes the whole gama of violating feelings is that I felt like theatrically engaged in a "child by the mother sexually and emotionally abused". Quite overwhelming, and I suppose what'd be deemed a "bad trip". But this word trip... what I experience is just as real. I can't even make a comparison to a previous mode of consciousness because of how that moment imposes itself upon me.
I should say I keep expecting (when taking a psychedelic) to see something irreducible of its reality - I want to see the other, or a miracle, for as Terence Mckenna said as I recall, secures the possibility of an infinity more. I want to see a UFO, something stranger than that, I want to be abducted, have the visuals of the normal state of consciousness deconstrued, so forth and so on; I want to see something "inconceivably strange". And then what that turns out to be is the very easily describable situation of being of cardboard depth, feeling separate, etc, unable to feel magic and wonder - ego intensified.
I mean, perhaps I should take more but, the theme and content of my experience doesn't seem to be in congruence with anything I was taught and expected - are people really seeing colorful pattens and entities? How real is that? Can it be to the point of surpassing a friendship induced state of mind?
I don't mean to reduce the experience bcause it hasn't worked for me yet (it has but in the strangest way I could think of, and the least expected), but are my shrooms good? First time grower too. See all this uncertainty - I want something from it that's irreducible, I want to look and be overwhelmed by its ontology and how much it differs from the normal state. To say "THAT'S IT! The thing!". Of course I don't know what the thing is, but because I've been instructed by Terence I have an idea that that's the reaction based on which I'll know.
Perhaps I should simply take more. And do it alone, which is what I want. I think that what it was asking me to do is to essentially ditch my friend's (suggestive) presence so that I can move onto a transpersonal dimension - and I mean this in the ordinary state of consciosness, proportional to how it feels after ingesting the mushroom. I've been in some inner conflict regarding them. I don't feel very well saying this but I feel like they bring me down. Normal human interaction is so reductive of experience, and I can language I think the outcome of my increasingly depth of seeing; but this speech doesn't seem to fit much in the normal state.
This contrasts greatly from when we earlier in the day smoke green... there was such a neat group-mind, lead by synchronicity and Transference we construed quite a profound and complex set of associations which culminate in varied ideas. We were in awe, wonder ruled.
Well I feel like I have to take responsability for what I want, trust myself and have my conviction unshaken - push forward alone.
I apologize for the lenght of this (and how poorly structured it may be), and it's a very small portion of what I want to discuss/say, mainly regarding them, and expectation/projection ruling their experience and the effects an invasive attitude of theirs has on me, such contrasting and heavy feelings traslated acted in a cannabinated-like drama.
I know not what to expect as replies, merely hopeful it's a "trust yourself, do it alone, take more" case.
I should say I keep expecting (when taking a psychedelic) to see something irreducible of its reality - I want to see the other, or a miracle, for as Terence Mckenna said as I recall, secures the possibility of an infinity more. I want to see a UFO, something stranger than that, I want to be abducted, have the visuals of the normal state of consciousness deconstrued, so forth and so on; I want to see something "inconceivably strange". And then what that turns out to be is the very easily describable situation of being of cardboard depth, feeling separate, etc, unable to feel magic and wonder - ego intensified.
I'm afraid you've been brainwashed in elementary school, and by Hollywood.
Experiences such as this are hard-pressed to find. Although I find it strange that you would want to seek out something like being abducted (!) I would recommend taking Salvia. Depending on where you live, you can order it online, just make sure it's 20x or 50x preferably if you want such intense effects. But even then, it will likely not be what you're thinking of.
Just being alone makes a doses SEEM stronger at unhinging the corners of your mind.
BUT.
I agree. I think... You watch to much TV.
I guess. It depends on what you really want.
have you taken 5g? thats what McKenna recommended.
I should think a sitter may be appropriate tho.... just to keep you from doing anything while you are unaware.
-------------------- Nothing I write on Shroomery's message boards or in private messages are true. I am fucking crazy and I make all this shit up because I can.
[quote]sploogepanz55 said: ^^^ haha what a bummer, shad0w. All this talk about dying. [/quote]
[quote]psychoanomaly said: And so, I feel your intolerance and phobia towards rectal administration of psychedelics is a violation of the music of the spheres [/quote]
[quote]shroom_sandwich said: I could have sworn I seen a thread about a guy saying his dog killed the neighbors chickens earlier....[/quote]
If you want to experience psychedelcis to the fullest;
Eat 3 - 4 times as many mushies as you did on your last trip. Trip alone or with one friend in a dark room. If you want to listen to music i recomend shamanic drumming (other types will distract you). While tripping, all you gotta do is let your ego go, surrender to the trip and let the drugs do all the work.
I agree. The type of trip you're looking for is extremely hard to come by. It's not something you have control over. You'll increase the odds of seeing something "inconceivably strange" with a larger dose but I definitely wouldn't suggest doing such a large dose so early. You've only done mushrooms twice.
I've been doing them for more than 5 years and I know the planning and preparation that goes into such a large dose can be very difficult. Even then, only experienced trippers should be taking a large dose alone.
My advice...if you truly want to experience what the mushroom has to offer, let go of all your expectations. Dose by yourself, but be careful not to dose too much. Let the mushroom be the guide and let it take you away. You might be surprised at what you find.
So it sounds like what you want is ego-death? Or contact with higher beings/aliens? Maybe go into salvia, like already said, or look into DMT. But you should probably get more experience with the psychedelic experience before wading into that deep territory. I've had a few trips on a few different psychedelics, and I've yet to experience ego death. Work your way up nice and easy. Buy a scale and measure out 3g of mushrooms, and build it up to 5g after you've had more trips. Do it alone, in the dark and simply meditate. No need for music, but it could help. Good luck, man
I actually don't watch TV at all, only hear it during meals. Though I've watched today a vid, and I was thinking a lot about ways it could affect me. I didn't (necessarily) mean a literal UFO abduction, rather the potential I think such a thing could have to leave a longlasting sense of awe (now reflecting on this I know not why other than because may symbolize the vastness of the universe or the self), to the point of changing my laziness to learn/read etc. That's what I want, a radical change in certain attitudes of mine.
Maybe I should've told more about the trip - I actually asked it (the mushroom (or tried)) to experience ego-death. And the images which came (I was laying in darkness in my bed, stomach down) was of being strangled. The rest of the night was everything I didn't want it to be, and was pointed toward leaving the friends, promessing the potential for such an experience. And as I think more about it I feel like my interactions with them killed the possibility of an ascent. From the previous one I could see discourse draws us to the personal level - was very much about process, or I tried to understand it in process-philosophy terms and its involved hierarchy, in which dialogue equated to a descent.
I couldn't focus because of them, my notions and importance of premeditation/preparation were exchanged by worry for them, their comfort. I tend to rationalize my way into validation of being with them, afterwards realizing I dismissed the opportunity to see the thing. I now understand these must be ruthlessly dismissed, despite how cruel the implications to our relation - which were the theme of the trip, like I needed this sort of momentary suffering to set such a course in my "normal" state of mind; I've always had problems with affirming my desires.
Hum and I may've agreed to do this with them the second time because the first destroyed my sense of an idealized set, it felt as if the phenomena, if it were real, was completly independent of anything previous (would simply be apperceived in varying depth). This one contrasts greatly.
Also we talked a lot and I felt like I was looking out for (or assuring) them, giving my experience up for it, like a father or a cop-like guide or so. This seems only to have validity facing the emotional bashing I was getting.
Well it's settled I think, and again I feel this is very incomplete and confusing (I went back and forth to write). The whole thing seems quite positive now, though at the time unbearable. They seem more emotionally/ affected though, despite having had a softer/happier kind of trip (though claiming the lack of our connection was extremely strange), having reached the lowest point in one of them being very sad after accidentally breaking my bong after smoking today, bought yesterday.
Yes, I'll dismiss DMT until I've understood the mushroom's sort of method/theme.
Strange in the least expectable way. Mushrooms seem to really enjoy figuring out exactly how to get you where you least expect it.
Listen, my advice to you is this. Inoculate a bunch of millet, spawn it to 50/50 hpoo and straw mix. Pick the mushrooms *JUST* before the veils break. Dry 'em and get a scale. 2.5 to 3.0 grams will be plenty.
If you feel like you need more beyond that point, by all means eat up.
If you want to be abducted, start researching DMT. By far the most astonishing and completely exquisite "visuals" I've ever been witness to.
A few more tips before I go, learn to enter the experience without expectation. But with a readiness and willingness to experience whatever may come your way. I'll also support the dosing alone suggestions. Lots of times I've found myself tripping in a group, I feel like a student at a lecture, and theres all this important shit being thrown my way, and I'm trying like hell to pay attention, but everyone around me wants to distract. The times I've dosed alone have always been more powerful.
Comcouveflor (cauliflower?), welcome to the Shroomery! I was intrigued by your post. What is a trip? Good question. You've really got me thinking, so forgive the long-winded ramblings of an eccentric Englishman.....
Quote: What is a trip?
One of the reasons I keep shrooming is because the experience is so intriguing and mysterious. The true essence of a trip is hard to define & difficult to explain. Accurately remembering and reflecting on a trip is difficult, because it's hard to put yourself back into the tripping mindset when you are sober. The overall result is that the nature of a trip can remain quite "ineffable" even after multiple experiences.
Quote: my question is basically what is it that people "see"?
It's common for people to remark that psychedelics do not actually cause "hallucinations" in the strict sense of the word - they don't usually cause people to see imaginary things that they believe to be real. The visuals are more like distortions of reality. There are some drugs such as datura that cause genuine hallucinations, but they are not widely recommended. A good description of these kind of bizarre datura hallucinations can be found in this post. If you want an all-encompassing hallucination that is difficult to tell apart from reality - you could always try dreaming (!). When you really think about it, dreams are a complete mindfuck....
I find that shrooms do cause some convincing hallucinations but they are normally restricted to the periphery of my vision. For instance, I'll be writing in my notebook and notice changes and movement in the room either side of me, but if I look directly there is nothing there. This is similar to something that happens when you are sober - for example if there is a coat hung on a door (at the edge of your vision where you can't quite see it properly) - you may perceive it as the figure of a person.
For me personally, I think the true nature of psychedelic visuals from mushrooms can be seen best as closed-eye-visuals (CEV). The first time I really started to feel like "this is it" with shrooms was the moment my CEV just seemed to come alive behind my eyelids - as though a new visual field was opening up somewhere inside my head, creating it's own 3D space and depth.
Mushroom CEV can involve all sorts of random scenes, but the characteristic effect for me is a seething, flourescent cauldron of colorful coiling, spiralling and folding shapes - as though a new reality has opened up within my head. I once wrote down a rather cryptic remark during a trip that "everything convulses within itself" and those visual effects are what I was talking about. It's not exactly what you would see in a kaleidoscope, it's not exactly similar to mandelbrot fractal imagery, but it's very distinctive and you'll know it when you see it. Sometimes it has a cartoonish aspect, or an appearance similar to brightly lit neon advertising, other times it's quite sinister and alien, but always flourescent and colorful. It's just doing it's own thing "down there" and you don't have a clue where "down there" can possibly be - it's just invaded the innerspace inside your mind....
On high doses, these kind of CEV start bleeding into my visual field, so that I start to see CEV with my eyes open or closed and cannot get away from it. It's a peculiar effect. I've had a few occasions where the open-eye visuals (OEV) have been spectacular - bursts of flourescent energy climbing the walls, some kind of psychedelic forest growing up each side of me - but generally my open-eye visuals are more subdued than the CEV.
In fact, waiting intently for some OEV to appear can be a bit like sitting on a train which is stopped at a station. You look at the train next to yours, and one of them starts moving, but you cannot decide if you are moving or the other train is moving. With shrooms, sometimes you see very little, but nevertheless you feel very odd, and realise that you have entered some strange kind of mental realm. The room itself appears to be within this realm, it looks completely normal, but you have a horrible feeling that the reason it looks normal is because the external reality you are looking at is within your brain. Now that is scary.
Quote: I feel like I can, for instance since it's something many wouldn't do I suppose, talk to my parents while at the peak
On a heavy dose, this will come to seem like an inconceivably bad idea. During one of my trips I was thinking about my folks, nad imagining myself out walking with my Dad and his dog. I could picture myself calmly telling him that I was God, and that everything was going to be OK. You do not want to talk to your parents during the peak of a delusional psychedelic experience unless you want them to think you have gone crazy.
Quote: I should say I keep expecting (when taking a psychedelic) to see something irreducible of its reality - I want to see the other, or a miracle, for as Terence Mckenna said as I recall, secures the possibility of an infinity more.....I want something from it that's irreducible, I want to look and be overwhelmed by its ontology and how much it differs from the normal state.
As you say yourself, take more, and do it either alone or maybe with an intelligent, experienced sitter and very few distractions. Increase each dose gradually (maybe 0.5g increments) to gradually get familiar with stronger trips. I would warn you that when this kind of drug "reveals itself" you may start to wish very strongly that it hadn't - it can be a nightmarish discovery that you are being engulfed by a state of mind that you cannot comprehend, that you never previously conceived of, that you are not able to cope with. At this point, you are too not too concerned with visuals; even though the visuals may be very beautiful and engulf your conscious experience. You are no longer worried about visuals beacuse you are drowning in a rising tide of panic; you have gone over the edge and are disappearing into the abyss....
Quote: are people really seeing colorful pattens and entities?
Colourful patterns, yes. Entities....not really, in my experience. A component of the trip that is worth considering is the experience of delusions. This is where you are not seeing anything visually (except perhaps as part of some kind of scene in your CEV) but you become convinced of very strange ideas. For instance I've had several trips where I get a sudden "realisation" that God is very much real; an almost concrete sense of "feeling the presence of God." I should point out that, when sober, I am about as religious as Richard Dawkins. This is a totally wild characteristic of mushrooms at high doses - a kind of temporary psychosis featuring what are basically paranoid delusions. So I could say to you that I "met God" during my trip, and show you writings that seemed to be religiously inspired, but I never really had an actual visual hallucination of any kind of entity. I've seen a lightshade glow and change color, and interpreted it as some kind of religious sign....but that's just a delusion based on fairly normal visuals.
Quote: Maybe I should've told more about the trip - I actually asked it (the mushroom (or tried)) to experience ego-death. And the images which came (I was laying in darkness in my bed, stomach down) was of being strangled. The rest of the night was everything I didn't want it to be, and was pointed toward leaving the friends, promessing the potential for such an experience. And as I think more about it I feel like my interactions with them killed the possibility of an ascent. From the previous one I could see discourse draws us to the personal level - was very much about process, or I tried to understand it in process-philosophy terms and its involved hierarchy, in which dialogue equated to a descent.
The nature of "ego death" is that the shrooms are working against the conscious desires of your ego. They do not do what you want, they crush you, they "bring you to your knees." They force you to relinquish control. They rule you. Anyway, talking about ego death is not always a good idea, as not everyone has the same concept of it. I did write a longish post about it here - What am I going through on shrooms?
Personally, I think of ego death as the downward spiral that comes before the ecstatic, spiritually uplifting feeling that I've heard described as the "psychedelic peak experience." If this "peak psychedelic experience" is heaven - a very spiritual, wonderful, nice place to be - then "ego death" is the hell or purgatory that you have to go through to reach it: where you feel the presence of God and God is not pleased; or you face whatever imaginary entity / external force / inner conflict you believe to be your tormentor; where you are crushed and burned and obliterated until you stop resisting. It's getting a bit off topic, but this is actually quite similar to the Ancient Egyptian concept of the afterlife - to reach heaven you have to spend a night journeying through the perils of the underworld before you get there.
So...ego death....I think it's fair to say that this kind of experience can sometimes be more of a descent into hell than an ascent into heaven. If you feel as though the mushrooms have you by the throat, maybe you are on the right track! The good news is that there is something worth reaching at the end of a long, difficult trip. And you don't need to fight your way through the trip to reach it - you simply need to surrender. Basically, if you take enough mushrooms, you will get to where you want to go, via a few places you didn't. And if all this sounds relentlessly negative and unpleasant, it's not that bad. Keep your sense of humour, remember your sense of adventure, and realise it's all part of the psychedelic experience. They are called trips because they take you to places in your head you didn't know existed.
Trust yourself, Do it alone, Take more!
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
Aldebaran I really enjoyed your post! And I've thought about it quite a bit more now and have reached about the same conclusion - it does seem to be a night sea journey indeed. Asking for ego-death does seem silly now. I'll dose again sunday night alone, hopefully devoid of expectation - yet I've decided to embrace the possibility of another experience as emotionally hard as this seemed to me; happily
Wasn't that a song by the Ramones? No wait, that was sedated.
Quote: I want to look and be overwhelmed by its ontology and how much it differs from the normal state. To say "THAT'S IT! The thing!"
Well yeah, but it doesn't work that way in practice.
What you have on the one (ordinary or nominal) side is an expectation that can never be fulfilled while retaining your (call it rational) perspective. Only in retrospect after a successful "trip" can you look back and say "oh yeah, that was a trip!"
The rest is just vain hopes - while you are actively tripping you aren't going to be able to think about it much from the nominal perspective (until and if you do a huge amount of groundwork and become very experienced about the various transition states). There's no you there to acknowledge the difference...
Anyway, the Stones said it a bit more concisely: You can't always get what you want / But if you try sometimes / You get what you need
From talking about the UFOs and stuff - you may have a fantasy-prone personality - many people do. That can make it hard to distinguish perceptual shifts. Don't worry, mushrooms can still feed your mind just fine.
A spirit guide could be extremely helpful in the quest - many books on shamanism describe how to locate your totem animal and make contact. Without some connection to those realms you can end up kind of blowing in the breeze under high doses - you'll see a lot of people reporting frightening trips here where they were obviously just getting lost in hyperspace.
A spirit guide will teach you what you need to know, they're insanely good at it. Personally I have seen - and contacted - a lot of entities over the years. Many of them made elaborate claims as well. Esoteric Buddhism can help you with this kind of thing - thousands of years of intense exploration provides a pretty reliable map of what's out there...
Just take your time, work on your grows, learn how to select for potency and so on, lots of info here on anything you could want to learn. And just from personal experience - ease up on the dope, it won't help you get to where you'd like to get. Mushrooms are reality manifesters, weed is like a brain insulator IME.
Go by stages as suggested, ramp up your doses until you start to see the kind of thing you're after. Then go beyond that (when you're ready - it'll be obvious) and you'll blow the doors off.
After that happens you won't be wondering what it's all about anymore.
Peace -PS
-------------------- ....................................................................The ConstruKction of Light: king crimson .........................Budhha comes and Buddha goes, what'cha gonna do about it?
Maybe not. I've been reading up a little more on ego death / ego loss. There are some interesting posts by Wiccan_Seeker in this thread which help clarify the terms.
It seems like "ego death" was a term originally used by Stanislav Grof to describe the kind of traumatic experience I talked about in my long post above:
Quote: While only a small step separates us from the experience of radical liberation, we have a sense of all-pervading anxiety and impending catastrophe of enormous proportions. The impression of imminent doom can be very convincing and overwhelming. The predominant feeling is that we are losing all that we know and that we are.
That quote comes from an article The Future of Psychiatry. The section titled "Fourth Perinatal Matrix (BPM IV)" talks about the idea of ego death in more detail.
The outcome of this "ego death" is a kind of transcendental state or "divine epiphany."
As Grof says in that article:
Quote: Immediately following the experience of total annihilation - 'hitting cosmic bottom'- we are overwhelmed by visions of light that has a supernatural radiance and beauty and is usually perceived as sacred.
This "vision of light" links into the concept of "ego loss" in Leary's well known work The Psychedelic Experience
This work links concepts from Buddhism to the experience of psychedelics. "Ego loss" is seen as a state comparable to deep meditation, where the mind is conscious; experiencing some kind of transcendental state, but is not engaged in actively thinking about anything. The "ego" in terms of a thinking, rationalising, goal-driven sense of "me" is temporarily lost.
A few extracts from "The Psychedelic Experience":
Quote: The first sign [of ego loss] is the glimpsing of the "Clear Light of Reality," "the infallible mind of the pure mystic state." This is the awareness of energy transformations with no imposition of mental categories.
Quote: The nervous system in a state of quiescence, alert, awake but not active is comparable to what Buddhists call the highest state of dhyana (deep meditation) when still united to a human body. The conscious recognition of the Clear Light induces an ecstatic condition of consciousness such as saints and mystics of the West have called illumination.
Leary speaks of the "peaceful attainment of illumination" and seems to view ego loss as something that can be achieved without the trauma of Grof's concept of ego death. In other words, you don't necessarily have to go through the grinder of ego death to achieve the sought-after ecstatic, mystical state of ego loss.
To confuse matters, Leary uses the term ego-death and ego-loss interchangably, but his vision of ego loss, and Grof's vision of ego death, seem to be two sides of the same coin. If the moment of "ego death" is seen as a fixed point, Leary is concerned with the ego-less state that comes after, Grof with the process of dying that comes before. The main difference between them seems to be that Leary views the state of ego loss as something that can be achieved peacefully, whereas Grof is talking about a painful but cathartic experience which is linked to his ideas about reliving memories of birth.
Frankly, I think both Leary & Grof have some bizarre ideas. I wouldn't read too much into their theories, but they do give some useful insights into different aspects of the psychedelic experience, and terms such as "ego death" or "ego loss" remain in use because there aren't many other phrases that describe these kind of mental states without going into massive detail about a particular trip.
So.. if you are trying to achieve ego loss, that is not a silly idea. I think the term has been hijacked slightly to convey the idea of a massive dose where there is no awareness of anything - a kind of mental blackout. This is clearly not what Leary is talking about, and the doses he suggests to achieve ego loss are large but not insanely large.
Personally, I think it's better to just do your own thing with your trips, with the simple aim of "seeing what happens". They are unlikely to turn out quite how you expect, so "devoid of expectation" is probably the way to go. If the experience hits you hard - so be it. It gets easier over time. As the dosage increases, you'll definitely get to experience some very unusual and surprising visions/thoughts/delusions/revelations. If you are dosing alone, just make sure you are somewhere safe where you have the option to lie down and ride out the trip if it gets a bit too much.
Good luck - let us know how you get on with your next trip!
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
No real life TV, you get too lost in it, just watch cartoons or play videos if you have to be inside at all. I would say if you want to truly trip eat the same or a slightly higher dose than you usually would, don't eat the day before at all because it makes the mushrooms hit you much harder. Then once you eat them just step outside and go for a four hour walk in a forest with headphones and water alone.
But at the same time you need to do what you want. I would say the best way to generate a psychedelic is to face the fears that you have within your mind, and attempt to discover what is within you and what you can pull out of the Universal mind, or whatever other minds are present that you have the ability to peer inside of.
If you want to know a bit more about what a trip is like I actually just created a fairly detailed trip log that is a free pdf, the link will be/is on my signature.
Quote: But at the same time you need to do what you want. I would say the best way to generate a psychedelic is to face the fears that you have within your mind, and attempt to discover what is within you and what you can pull out of the Universal mind, or whatever other minds are present that you have the ability to peer inside of.
Ok I've never tripped before but I have a lot of crazy nightmares so you think its best for me to face my fears and find out why I am having this problem and try to conquer them by facing my subconscious mind? Or, should I just try to relax more and find way to reverse this before experiencing this?
-------------------- "In the end, it's not going to matter how many breaths you took, but how many moments took your breath away" - shing xiong
The weirdness your after is definitely available through the mushroom. You say you want to be abducted, but ignore the content of the trip and those violating feelings as something else? Sometimes the beings are only felt. Sometimes extreme, some times gentle- sometimes seen, sometimes hellbent. Yeh, definitely with the pushing forward alone! Planning and preparing for safety and isolation.
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Personally I have seen - and contacted - a lot of entities over the years. Many of them made elaborate claims as well. Esoteric Buddhism can help you with this kind of thing - thousands of years of intense exploration provides a pretty reliable map of what's out there...
