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 communeart
Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1,021
Loc: 
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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 Drug testing welfare recipients 
#12848411 - 07/04/10 06:57 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Like many here i am concerned about drug testing since it is clearly against our ideology here of allowing people to decide what they put in their bodies that is everything not just alcohol, i also don't think we have the right to decide what would welfare recipients do with their money, even if we can personally judge they shouldn't use it to party and rather use it for food,rent and getting a new job.
i also find it stupid that a person can abuse alcohol but if anyone uses an illegal drug he would be cut from welfare, it might also lead him to be homeless and other dire consequences because he is taking a drug that the government doesn't allow for older racist ideas that mushrooms,marijuana and opium were drugs used by foreigners to corrupt our youth which were followed by hysterical propaganda such as the reefer madness. the concept was eventually applied to new chemical drugs.
However, a person of african-american origin in the united states stated he was in favor of such a measure( i do not remember when it was suggested though), and then said that if you want to be fair,anyone receiving government money be tested for drugs like goldman sachs CEO for example. he also asks where those tests will take place so that he can bring his camera to publicly shame a few wealthy cokeheads.
while i disagree with putting shame on anyone based on drugs, i think he has a good point that this measure is pretty much aimed at attacking the poorer class in america.
now after seeing simplictry's signature i suggest we talk about welfare in general (i admit i am a bit shocked) . i will start by saying that such social parasites only make up less than 1% of the budget and you should cut down in the military if you want less of a strong government, even ron paul says he will cut the military before attacking social services. in an economy like we have even now with the forced inflation we have and unnatural employment there is bound to be people without job and they should have something to survive. there is simply never full employment in capitalism.
Edited by communeart (07/04/10 07:27 PM)
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 Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,366
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck 
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: communeart]
#12848706 - 07/04/10 08:25 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
communeart said:
i will start by saying that such social parasites only make up less than 1% of the budget
that's a ridiculous statement since the budget for social programs is larger than the military budget
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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 zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,327
Last seen: 3 minutes, 45 seconds
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: communeart]
#12849354 - 07/04/10 11:05 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
communeart said:
Like many here i am concerned about drug testing since it is clearly against our ideology here of allowing people to decide what they put in their bodies that is everything not just alcohol, i also don't think we have the right to decide what would welfare recipients do with their money, even if we can personally judge they shouldn't use it to party and rather use it for food,rent and getting a new job.
Their money?Quote:
i also find it stupid that a person can abuse alcohol but if anyone uses an illegal drug he would be cut from welfare, it might also lead him to be homeless and other dire consequences because he is taking a drug that the government doesn't allow for older racist ideas that mushrooms,marijuana and opium were drugs used by foreigners to corrupt our youth which were followed by hysterical propaganda such as the reefer madness. the concept was eventually applied to new chemical drugs.
Alcohol is verboten for bums too.Quote:
However, a person of african-american origin in the united states stated he was in favor of such a measure( i do not remember when it was suggested though), and then said that if you want to be fair,anyone receiving government money be tested for drugs like goldman sachs CEO for example. he also asks where those tests will take place so that he can bring his camera to publicly shame a few wealthy cokeheads.
while i disagree with putting shame on anyone based on drugs, i think he has a good point that this measure is pretty much aimed at attacking the poorer class in america.
now after seeing simplictry's signature i suggest we talk about welfare in general (i admit i am a bit shocked) . i will start by saying that such social parasites only make up less than 1% of the budget and you should cut down in the military if you want less of a strong government, even ron paul says he will cut the military before attacking social services. in an economy like we have even now with the forced inflation we have and unnatural employment there is bound to be people without job and they should have something to survive. there is simply never full employment in capitalism.
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communeart
Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1,021
Loc:
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#12849892 - 07/05/10 01:32 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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now i just realized there are plenty of other threads about this 
Quote:
that's a ridiculous statement since the budget for social programs is larger than the military budget
fuck apparently you're right. sorry ( i couldn't get the image to work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f9/U.S._Federal_Receipts_-_FY_2007.png/350px-U.S._Federal_Receipts_-_FY_2007.png
problem i have with this is, where are the welfare recipients? where the fuck is education? do we really have to include medicare and medicaid? ( sorry but for me healthcare is public in canada so that's why i tend not to include but i guess we should). also how the hell do you guys get tax revenues from social security, i guess people who pay for unemployment benefits pay for it? i guess i understand why the people in the united states are so pissed about welfare, the real working class actually pays for it. though of course asking for the rich to pay more for it would be COMMUNISM.SOCIALISM!!! HELL NATIONAL SOCIALISM.
also we should look at unemployment benefits,unemployment insurance, retirements and mothers and nothing else like other social programs to help you get a job, we are talking about welfare recipients, though of course this is all manipulation of data either on your side or my side :/.
it is about 3-5% of the budget in canada anyway because i sincerely don't count healthcare in it. healthcare is about 25% of the budget. healthcare is equal for the rich (albeit there is some privatization if they want to have it faster) so it doesn't make any difference if you are on welfare or not.
what i really mean is that if you are on welfare or not should be what matters. i also don't think unemployment benefits would be tested for drugs if this measure pass through.
Edited by communeart (07/05/10 02:14 AM)
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libertarian23
strangeranger
Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 78
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: communeart]
#12854099 - 07/06/10 12:15 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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i think it is a terrible idea but if you are going to recieve welfare you kind of must accept the fact that you are enslaving yourself to the state and they can do what they want to you...i've heard from numerous people that if you get government housing you are not to have a weopon in your house...so is it an invasion of their privacy yeah and i'm outraged! but do they get to complain when they make a deal with the devil and he bites fuck no! lets have the better talk of whether these programs actually do accomplish what they were intended to and i think not--so we should get rid of them---compassion by force of the state isn't compassion but theft.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 881
Last seen: 4 hours, 20 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: libertarian23]
#12856625 - 07/06/10 03:40 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Those who turn to the government for a better life will find misery, and they deserve every minute of it. I laugh at their pathetic existence.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
Edited by Simplicitry (07/06/10 07:17 PM)
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 881
Last seen: 4 hours, 20 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: communeart]
#12856661 - 07/06/10 03:49 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
communeart said:
there is bound to be people without job and they should have something to survive. there is simply never full employment in capitalism.
There is, it's called unemployment insurance. The goverment forces you to pay for it, and when your benefits run out it's over(unless they extend it of coarse). So it's not even remotely the same thing as wellfare. Those who use it paid for it.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Simplicitry]
#12857095 - 07/06/10 05:28 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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> There is, it's called unemployment insurance. The goverment forces you to pay for it
Actually, the government forces your employer to pay for it. If you are self-employed, you don't have to pay a cent for unemployment insurance. Of course, in this case, you cannot collect unemployment should you become unemployed.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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GI_Luvmoney
Vote Republican!
Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 939
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: communeart]
#12857353 - 07/06/10 06:16 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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We could just make Soylent Green out of them.
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slssurvivor
Mack
Registered: 03/15/10
Posts: 115
Last seen: 1 month, 12 days
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: communeart]
#12877730 - 07/10/10 03:26 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
communeart said:
now i just realized there are plenty of other threads about this
Quote:
that's a ridiculous statement since the budget for social programs is larger than the military budget
fuck apparently you're right. sorry ( i couldn't get the image to work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f9/U.S._Federal_Receipts_-_FY_2007.png/350px-U.S._Federal_Receipts_-_FY_2007.png
No thats not right at all. Dont trust wikis or the government accounting. A lot of the money in those charts will end up magically "unaccounted for" at the end of the day. The military budget dwarfs everything, sry...
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Joie
Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 3,615
Last seen: 28 minutes, 26 seconds
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: slssurvivor]
#12878246 - 07/10/10 05:23 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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What is fair is cash-value time-limited food, utilities, rent, clothing or transport stamps, refundable to suppliers with tills networked for approved products, and at least if they do become currency someone eventually spends those on food, utilities, rent, clothing or transport or the economy reabsorbs the benefits. 
It doesn't make moral sense for taking drugs to be a criminal offence. I don't agree the state should give out welfare if it is generally being misspent, but aih drug testing is unfair, they might as well test recipients for alcohol and monitor all leisure.
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communeart
Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 1,021
Loc:
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Joie]
#12878469 - 07/10/10 06:08 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
What is fair is cash-value time-limited food, utilities, rent, clothing or transport stamps, refundable to suppliers with tills networked for approved products, and at least if they do become currency someone eventually spends those on food, utilities, rent, clothing or transport or the economy reabsorbs the benefits.
It doesn't make moral sense for taking drugs to be a criminal offence. I don't agree the state should give out welfare if it is generally being misspent, but aih drug testing is unfair, they might as well test recipients for alcohol and monitor all leisure.
well i think someone had this idea to have some kind of money for food or clothes to prevent people from using it for other ends. especially parents on welfare, some may say drug dealer are not very moral for a start (which is bullshit) and i guess crack dealer won't care as much, but it is logical to prefer real money instead of food money.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#12878567 - 07/10/10 06:27 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
communeart said:
Like many here i am concerned about drug testing since it is clearly against our ideology here of allowing people to decide what they put in their bodies that is everything not just alcohol, i also don't think we have the right to decide what would welfare recipients do with their money, even if we can personally judge they shouldn't use it to party and rather use it for food,rent and getting a new job.
Their money?
Yes, once the government gives it to them, it's theirs, what's so hard to understand about this? 
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
communeart said:
i also find it stupid that a person can abuse alcohol but if anyone uses an illegal drug he would be cut from welfare, it might also lead him to be homeless and other dire consequences because he is taking a drug that the government doesn't allow for older racist ideas that mushrooms,marijuana and opium were drugs used by foreigners to corrupt our youth which were followed by hysterical propaganda such as the reefer madness. the concept was eventually applied to new chemical drugs.
Alcohol is verboten for bums too.
That's not true, welfare recipients are legally allowed to purchase alcohol with their welfare money.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: slssurvivor]
#12878592 - 07/10/10 06:30 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
The military budget dwarfs everything, sry...
Bullshit.
If you're going to make a claim like this, you're going to have to back it up with evidence. Just saying so doesn't make it true.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Redstorm]
#12878656 - 07/10/10 06:43 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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This source shows that the government spends over 50% of its funds on the military:
The Federal Pie Chart
Quote:
MILITARY: 54% and $1,449 billion
NON-MILITARY: 46% and $1,210 billion
Current Military
$965 billion:
• Military Personnel $129 billion
• Operation & Maint. $241 billion
• Procurement $143 billion
• Research & Dev. $79 billion
• Construction $15 billion
• Family Housing $3 billion
• DoD misc. $4 billion
• Retired Pay $70 billion
• DoE nuclear weapons $17 billion
• NASA (50%) $9 billion
• International Security $9 billion
• Homeland Secur. (military) $35 billion
• State Dept. (partial) $6 billion
• other military (non-DoD) $5 billion
• “Global War on Terror” $200 billion [We added $162 billion to the last item to supplement the Budget’s grossly underestimated $38 billion in “allowances” to be spent in 2009 for the “War on Terror,” which includes the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan]
Past Military,
$484 billion:
• Veterans’ Benefits $94 billion
• Interest on national debt (80%) created by military spending, $390 billion
Human Resources
$789 billion:
• Health/Human Services
• Soc. Sec. Administration
• Education Dept.
• Food/Nutrition programs
• Housing & Urban Dev.
• Labor Dept.
• other human resources.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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slssurvivor
Mack
Registered: 03/15/10
Posts: 115
Last seen: 1 month, 12 days
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Redstorm]
#12878658 - 07/10/10 06:43 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
The military budget dwarfs everything, sry...
Bullshit.
If you're going to make a claim like this, you're going to have to back it up with evidence. Just saying so doesn't make it true.
wow you are cranky redstorm. As far as evidence, the first rule of successful government is to make sure no one person knows the whole story and these days accounting is one of the most creative fields you can go into, so nobody is gonna be able to prove this one way or the other. I believe the military budget dwarfs everything and you believe it doesn't. Thats the closest we are ever gonna get to the truth until a certain so called 'federal' institution gets audited.
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slssurvivor
Mack
Registered: 03/15/10
Posts: 115
Last seen: 1 month, 12 days
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Poid]
#12878768 - 07/10/10 07:10 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
That's not true, welfare recipients are legally allowed to purchase alcohol with their welfare money.
But sadly they cant use their food stamps to do so
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: slssurvivor]
#12878778 - 07/10/10 07:12 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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That's why they're called "food stamps". 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: slssurvivor]
#12878795 - 07/10/10 07:16 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Those numberQuote:
slssurvivor said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
The military budget dwarfs everything, sry...
Bullshit.
If you're going to make a claim like this, you're going to have to back it up with evidence. Just saying so doesn't make it true.
wow you are cranky redstorm. As far as evidence, the first rule of successful government is to make sure no one person knows the whole story and these days accounting is one of the most creative fields you can go into, so nobody is gonna be able to prove this one way or the other. I believe the military budget dwarfs everything and you believe it doesn't. Thats the closest we are ever gonna get to the truth until a certain so called 'federal' institution gets audited.
So, in other words, you're not going to support your claim. Just as I thought. I can provide evidence. Just because you believe it is not valid doesn't mean that it actually IS invalid.
You, on the other hand, can provide nothing but speculation.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Poid]
#12878823 - 07/10/10 07:20 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
This source shows that the government spends over 50% of its funds on the military:
The Federal Pie Chart
Quote:
MILITARY: 54% and $1,449 billion
NON-MILITARY: 46% and $1,210 billion
Current Military
$965 billion:
• Military Personnel $129 billion
• Operation & Maint. $241 billion
• Procurement $143 billion
• Research & Dev. $79 billion
• Construction $15 billion
• Family Housing $3 billion
• DoD misc. $4 billion
• Retired Pay $70 billion
• DoE nuclear weapons $17 billion
• NASA (50%) $9 billion
• International Security $9 billion
• Homeland Secur. (military) $35 billion
• State Dept. (partial) $6 billion
• other military (non-DoD) $5 billion
• “Global War on Terror” $200 billion [We added $162 billion to the last item to supplement the Budget’s grossly underestimated $38 billion in “allowances” to be spent in 2009 for the “War on Terror,” which includes the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan]
Past Military,
$484 billion:
• Veterans’ Benefits $94 billion
• Interest on national debt (80%) created by military spending, $390 billion
Human Resources
$789 billion:
• Health/Human Services
• Soc. Sec. Administration
• Education Dept.
• Food/Nutrition programs
• Housing & Urban Dev.
• Labor Dept.
• other human resources.
I understand what they're asserting, but I'm skeptical of their methodology (particularly b/c they don't explain it). Not to mention that the page does not address government spending, but how income taxes dollars are used. These are very different things.
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