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 blackout
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 sterilizing dry (or partially dry) grains and adding sterile water later 
#1272709 - 02/03/03 05:27 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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has anybody added sterile water to sterile grains. i figure i can fit about twice the amount of dry grain into a pc. i could have water boiling to sterilize it, while my pc is doing grain or rice. there should be enough moisture in dry grain to sterilize it properly, if not a small amount of water could be added. if grain is sterile and then water is added and used to fill AC bags, they should only require steaming to resterilise them and to get the water to absorb. this may be beneficial to people with small PCs. you could PC a large bag of grain and use it to fill small jars which could then be steamed in a large pot.
i asked before (with no replies) about buying presterilized grain. some hemp seed is meant to be sterile, is this the plant or is it irradiated. it should only require steaming if irradiated. anybody working in a lettuce factory could stick a sly sack of grain in the irradiator machine 
Edited by blackout (10/30/09 06:31 PM)
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 Bilge
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#1272724 - 02/03/03 05:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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i can't answer your question, but when hemp seed (or any seed) is said to be sterile, it usually means that it will not germinate, not that it is void of microorganisms.
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La_Magdalene
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 Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#1273573 - 02/03/03 10:03 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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First off...hemp seed contains too high of an oil content, mycillium would not survive. Secondly, is much easier to just soak the seed first and allow it to retain the maximum amount of moisture it can handle. Then PC it. To add water to dry, sterilized seed, you run the risk of not getting the H2O content just so. 
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Azmodeus
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: La_Magdalene]
#1273612 - 02/03/03 10:12 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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A good idea, but without proper moisture in the dry grain i question the effectiveness of pressure cooking....
Dont think it would work...
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Curious_George
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: Azmodeus]
#1273750 - 02/03/03 10:46 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You can fit more dry grain in a jar, but it needs to expand in order to absorb water and will use the same space!!!
And by transfering your grain to other jars, you open them up to contams!!
no go!
sorry.
cg
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blackout
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: Bilge]
#1276094 - 02/04/03 01:24 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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"hemp seed contains too high of an oil content, mycillium would not survive"
yeah ive heard that. i thought popcorn has a high oil count too but it seems to work. i was really just asking if it was sterile or sterilized.
"you run the risk of not getting the H2O content just so."
some would argue that you can get it more accurate. weigh your grain and measure your water, many recipies are available
"but without proper moisture in the dry grain i question the effectiveness of pressure cooking"
thats why i say you could add a little more. its about 12% moisture to begin with.
"You can fit more dry grain in a jar, but it needs to expand in order to absorb water and will use the same space!!!"
thats why you put them in a big bag and fill the jars later. i can only fit 3 jars in my PC but about 100 in a big pot(keg). i think i could fit about 2kg of dry grain in the pc which will fill a lot more than 3 jars.
"And by transfering your grain to other jars, you open them up to contams!!"
exactly why you resterilize them, but this time the should only require steaming.
more arguments please!
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Anno
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#1276174 - 02/04/03 02:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You are sterilizing once, then steaming again.
In the time you need for sterilizing/steaming you could easily sterilize twice, and be sure that the grain is sterile.
I?d say, try what you described here, and then report on your findings and results.
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blackout
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: Anno]
#1276483 - 02/04/03 05:39 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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i'm not sure what you mean there Anno. i steam because contams will be introduced when loading my jars, not because i'm unsure the pc worked.
i can only fit 3 jars in my PC. say i can fit enough dry grain for 21jars. i pc for say 2 hours to be sure, then load my 21 jars and steam for 2 hours in the big pot. thats 4.5 hours including 1/2hr heat up for the pc (start heating my stock pot when pcing). to do 21 jars would take 7 uses of the pc taking at least 1.5hr each including heat up. that is 10.5hrs altogether, which actually would take longer taking into account cooldowns and loading unloading.
steaming for 2 hrs may be overkill since the grain will be hot coming from the pc and i could add boiling water to the jars so they are up to temp instantly.
anyway, i will give it a go on a small scale first
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Curious_George
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#1278805 - 02/04/03 05:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm stoned right now.. so i might not make much sense..
but i think i finally understand what you are up to... correct me if i got it wrong...
You need a PC to kill all bacteria in grains, ie: to penetrate the grain and sterilize it.... PC dry grain and transfer to clean jars with sterile water while grain is still hot and then boil/steam to kill contams you introduce while stransfering to jars as steaming aparently takes care if it!!!
I know what you mean about the small PC< my 6 Qt presto sucked, 3 pints max at a time,,, a bag with dry grain could hold enough to fill 7-8 maybe more!
Not bad. there is just the water content factor you will need to find!
good luck!
cg
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zeta
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#1279143 - 02/04/03 06:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Unpopped corn has a fat content of 3%.
It only has a high oil content because lardasses pour melted butter all over it 
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blackout
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: zeta]
#1294788 - 02/09/03 11:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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i pc'd a kilo of ryegrass seed yesterday in a bag for 90 mins in an a/c bag. i then pc'd some water straight away. let it get to 15psi and turned the cooker off. i opened 30 mins later poured in to make the bag up to 2 kilos and sealed it. i microwaved it on "2" for 30 mins.
BTW i had too much water in at the start and some got in the bag. the bag weighed about 1.2kg when it came out so about 200ml of water got in during pcing.
i'll innoc with mex a soon
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Waldarbeiter
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#1295186 - 02/10/03 05:16 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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well I think sterilizing dry grain won't do much harm to contaminants.
Some endospores can easily survive a heat of 130?C, which your PC may have.
The real "killer" is the high-velocity water molecules; you know... the hotter matter gets, the faster it moves.
So the water molecules may act as sort of ammunition, destroying the bad spore's cells...
P:S: what I wrote above may be bullshit, but to me it sounds OK.
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blackout
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#1336271 - 02/25/03 11:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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this is just an update- i got no contams after almost 2 1/2 weeks incubated at 27C. i have since opened the bag (it wasnt inoced) to transfer it to a gallon jar and stuck it in the microwave. i have a few gallon jars being fractionally sterilised in the microwave and i think i may be able to keep the moisture levels right too.
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blackout
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#4810475 - 10/16/05 12:42 PM (7 years, 8 months ago) |
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Resurrecting this old thread. I cannot remember what happened to those jars.
I have pc'd 1kg of barley for 70 mins. It was dry with no water added at all. I will add water and microwave a small amount for 1 hour.
If this works it may be a good way of sterilizing in large batches. I buy things in a particular store, use them and return them within 16 days for a cash refund. Hippiechick does the same thing and gave me the idea of buying a very large AA pc. You could keep it for as long as the store allows, dry sterilize a huge amount of grain and return it. Then you have dry sterile grain that you can keep for years, that only requires steaming.
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MagicalMystery
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#4811171 - 10/16/05 04:11 PM (7 years, 8 months ago) |
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I would think that the ideal method would be to sterilize grains when they are wet, then desiccate them and vacuum store them.
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BubbleBoi
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: MagicalMystery]
#4822174 - 10/18/05 09:04 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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if you boil or steep your grain before pressure cooking them, they'll absorb plenty of water... I boil my seed for almost an hour and then drain it using a pillow case and mix a little whole wheat flour with it. The idea is to get the grain to absorb the water it needs before pressure cooking it when I do that. Dunno if that'd help you out any, if you seal the grain in a bag before pressure cooking it, should be straight I'd imagine. But it seams like overcomplicating it if you're just gonna be putting that grain into jars and then sterilizing it again... I'd rather sit on my ass and wait another hour on the pressure cooker.
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blackout
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: BubbleBoi]
#4823753 - 10/19/05 04:20 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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You guys are missing the point. How many 1/2pint jars could you fit in your PC? now how much grain you could fit? probably 2kg in a small PC.
So if you do 2kg in 90mins, this is enough for 10 quart jars, 20 pint jars or 40 1/2 pint jars. If you load the jars up straight after the grain is pc'd you can add boiling water and steam for 90mins on the other cooker ring in a large stock pot, while pcing even more dry grain.
Or like I said get a loan or return a massive PC after processing a few years worth of dry grain. This would be useful for those with no pc or small pcs. Or vendors could do it, many sell grains, some sell wet grain, but the postage is more.
Some people may want to try grains but do not wish to buy a pc (yet), they could buy some steamable grain from a vendor to try out.
Note to myself: jar=252g grain=121g aim for 464-494g wet. start at 550g
microwaved for 90mins. to 462g. added pin from invitro texan jar 20-10-05
Edited by blackout (10/21/05 04:36 AM)
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blackout
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#4840671 - 10/23/05 10:03 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is the texan pin that I added
It is starting to colonise some grains now. Early days yet.
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blackout
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#4878453 - 11/01/05 04:37 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Damn, lost it to wet spot. Took a while for it to start though. I was not very clean when I transferred the pin to the jar. Could wet spot be from contams in the air? or is it usually from within the grains?
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Seuss
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#4878523 - 11/01/05 06:32 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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> i could have water boiling to sterilize it
You mean pasteurized, not sterilized. There are plenty of organisms that can survive boiling water at STP.
Wet spot could have come from either the grain or from contams in the air. Repeat your experiement, but create some controls. In this case, transfer to one jar and leave the other jar sealed. If both jars contaminate, then you know the transfer was not the cause (or at least not the only cause).
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blackout
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: Seuss]
#4878560 - 11/01/05 07:42 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Boiling tap water is enough to sterilize it, endospores will survive boiling water, but there should be none in tap water (possibly in regions with very poor drinking water which is undrinkable).
I will repeat it and not inoculate the jar. I have millet I fractionally microwaved months ago which has not contamed yet.
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Seuss
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#4878819 - 11/01/05 10:59 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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> Boiling tap water is enough to sterilize it, endospores will survive boiling water
Sure, boiling sterile water will result in sterile water (assuming that no contamination was accidently added during the process) but it is a very bad assumption that tap water is sterile to begin with... it most certainly is not. My tap water comes from a cistern under my house which is collected from rain fall that lands on the roof. The house I grew up in got its tap water from the water well out back... I used to put the tap water under the microscope when I was kid to watch all the little microscopic organisms swim around... again, certainly not sterile.
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blackout
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: Seuss]
#4878867 - 11/01/05 11:21 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I never said tap water was sterile to begin with, just that drinkable tap water will have no endospores that require a PC to kill. It will be full of all sorts of conaminants, easily killed by a simple boiling.
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blackout
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#11353357 - 10/30/09 07:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just revisiting this old idea. I have had good success with adding lots of LC to partially dry grains, even to bone dry grains which were drier than how they started.
I got 700g of wheat and boil/PC'd it for about 5mins, very low pressure. It then weighed 1130g, so this meant 430ml of water was added. This is quite a bit less than many recommend. I sterilized at up to 17-22psi for about 100mins, when coming out the grains looked reasonably wet and none had exploded. I presume the lack of moisture means they are less prone to exploding, another bonus. When cooled they did look quite dry.
I added 50ml of LC (Penis envy). This showed no growth for several days, in the past I have had 80-90% colonisation using a lot of LC in just 3 days, though in larger ratios. I had thought I would have to add more LC to get it going, but now about 1 week on the bag shows colonisation throughout the entire bag.
This is another advantage to using a lot of LC, you may not have to shake the grains at all, just add your LC, mix well and leave it colonise. I have a second tupperware container which I have fruited in before. I added normal moisture PC'd grain to this and then microwaved it driving the moisture out and sterilizing the container in the process, my plan is to add lots of LC, have it colonise quickly but it will already be in its fruiting chamber, so I only have to case it so it never experiences any shaking after myc growth has begun. I also figure this could result in a far stronger myc seeing as it is never disrupted. My LC is MS, but I would also guess a proper isolate would have far better results. This also should minimise the risk of contams in the stage where you shake grain and add to a container and then case, I expect it might rip through the casing layer.
When grains are soaked properly and cooked until dry in a microwave they remain a larger size/volume, this is like a sponge which then sucks moisture in very easily. I have read about how grains will grow in volume when roasted. I have successfully grown on burnt/roasted grains in the past too. You can read about how roasted grains increase in size here
http://www.international-agrophysics.org/artykuly/international_agrophysics/IntAgr_2002_16_2_167.pdf
There might be other benefits from roasting the grain before PC'ing
http://www.roast-a-matic.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=32
This is related to animals but I wonder if shrooms might benefit too.
Quote:
The dry heat from the roaster at a high temperature destroys the toxic enzymes in the raw soybeans which interfere with digestion and growth in all animals. Also, the soluble protein is decreased and the by-pass protein content is increased. The protein degradability is slowed down so that much of it passes through the rumen and is utilized in the small intestine known as by-pass protein. High levels of by-pass protein from roasted beans is a very important ingredient to supplement soluble protein being fed from early-cut legume haylage. Roasted beans are high in lysine, which is an important amino acid, and are very palatable to livestock.roast_on_trailer.jpg
The oil is an important material retained in a whole roasted soybean. About 20% of the bean is oil, making it a tremendous source of concentrated energy. It provides 2 1/4 times as much energy as a carbohydrate. By roasting it, it is converted to a more digestible form. It is an economical and convenient way to provide necessary energy dense rations without providing too much fermentable carbohydrates in the rumen.....
he roasting of corn destroys mold and reduces mycotoxins to tolerable levels. Herbicide carry over microscopic mold and fungus are greatly reduced. This process enables you to feed out-of -condition grain. By sterilizing the grain, there is no harmful stress coming from the feed so that the total feed is assimilated for peak production. When corn is roasted at high temperatures, there is a 10% increase in available energy. Roasting ruptures the walls of the starch cells making the starch water-soluble. This is called gelatinization. The gelatinization of starch makes it more digestible, thereby increasing the feed efficiency. Roasted corn grinds easier which saves on grinding costs......
Further testing is obviously needed, but you the grain did appear quite wet so I think I can get away with adding a lot less water and still sterilizing it properly.
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dancefloordale
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: blackout]
#11404763 - 11/07/09 02:57 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was just browsing (I am constantly researching things) and I came upon this.
I really like the idea of not disturbing the myc at all and it has crossed my mind before. I try to minimize my disturbances, one way like you discussed is shaking well after inoculation with LC. I even shake with MS to grain.
This seems like something you may well be interested in...
Grain LC's are a nice way to know when you make an LC that it is not contaminated, that's why I like 'em. I'm guessing you are familiar. Well approximately 10cc's of solution never make it make out of the half pint jars used for this. You look at the grain and think there is no way this will not contam now. Flipping it upside down, laying it on its side, rolling it over, just move it around so the water doesn't stay pooled in one place. The myc loves this, and will really bounce back, much more vigorous than before.
I think it is something worth looking into and it may help with WBS poor moisture retention. Maybe not though.
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blackout
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: dancefloordale]
#11499865 - 11/21/09 06:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I just PC'd 1.5kg of wheat, it was boiled for a few minutes and weighed 2050g and came out quite wet looking, 80mins @ ~20psi.
I am going to make a lid with a needle attached and a self healing hole. I hope to be able to inject the bag and turn the jar on its side to pour the LC into the bag,
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Mr. Mushroom
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: dancefloordale]
#11536138 - 11/27/09 10:09 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
dancefloordale said:
I was just browsing (I am constantly researching things) and I came upon this.
I really like the idea of not disturbing the myc at all and it has crossed my mind before. I try to minimize my disturbances, one way like you discussed is shaking well after inoculation with LC. I even shake with MS to grain.
This seems like something you may well be interested in...
Grain LC's are a nice way to know when you make an LC that it is not contaminated, that's why I like 'em. I'm guessing you are familiar. Well approximately 10cc's of solution never make it make out of the half pint jars used for this. You look at the grain and think there is no way this will not contam now. Flipping it upside down, laying it on its side, rolling it over, just move it around so the water doesn't stay pooled in one place. The myc loves this, and will really bounce back, much more vigorous than before.
I think it is something worth looking into and it may help with WBS poor moisture retention. Maybe not though.
I had a few jars that had more moisture in them then they should have, i would just keep moving them around, setting them upside one day, on the side the next, just different sides at the end, now as you can see my jars took off pretty good, and i think its due to extra moisture, but at the same time this extra moisture can be bad thing....
if you look close at the bottom of these jars youll see the moisture has cause a milky buildup on the rye your myc will have a hard time eating through this, since these jars were done over a month ago and have had little progress in the last couple weeks.
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dancefloordale
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Re: sterilizing dry grains and adding sterile water later [Re: Mr. Mushroom]
#11537647 - 11/27/09 04:19 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think the main difference is that the grains are already colonized when adding the extra water. Too much water before colonization is much more likely to lead to contams. I haven't looked into this anymore though, been kinda busy lately....
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