Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently! - The Psychedelic Experience

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thunderfox
Student of Perception

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 115
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months

Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

#11822361 - 01/13/10 04:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

There is evidence that LSD, MDMA, and other hallucinogens can produce visual problems even in people who do not have HPPD. So far, experiments have not been conducted with drugs other than LSD. Dr. Henry Abraham, the leading researcher on the topic of HPPD (and the originator of the term), did two experiments on LSD-related visual disorders. In both experiments, he used three groups of subjects. The comparison or 'control' group had never taken LSD. The second group consisted of former LSD users who had never experienced visual problems and who said they hadn't taken LSD in a long time. The final group consisted of LSD users who reported HPPD symptoms.

The first test measured the ability of the groups to distinguish colors. The control group scored the best, the former LSD users fell in the middle, and the HPPD group scored the worst. The results were statistically significant with a P < 0.001, which theoretically means that there was less than 1 in 1000 chance that the measured differences were caused by random chance. [Abstract]

The second test measured the ability of each group to distinguish light flicker. A light was rapidly strobed on and off. Above a certain frequency subjects perceived the flashing light to be on continuously. Again, the control group performed best, the former LSD users fell in the middle, and the HPPD subjects scored the worst. The results were again statistically significant (P<0.001). [Abstract]

These experiments seem to show that even HPPD-free LSD users may be experiencing long-term changes in their vision. It is not known why these changes are so distracting to people with HPPD while not being bothersome to other LSD users. It is very important to note, however, that not much research has been done in this area and these results have not been confirmed by other research.

Speculation: These results are difficult to explain. They would seem to point to a slow degradation in perception caused by LSD. HPPD seems to have very rapid onset in many cases, often after very few LSD experiences. It would be interesting to see if the strength of distortions could be correlated to total LSD experiences. It would also be interesting to do longitudinal studies of current LSD users to see how their perceptions change. There is a PhD thesis in the making for somebody!

http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/health/hppd/hppd_faq.shtml#hppdfree
http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=1232
http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=1245

What do you think? How does this influence your opinion on using LSD/shrooms (how often etc.)?

Thunderfox

--------------------
Trading B+ spore prints.

Looking for Penis Envy print.

Edited by thunderfox (01/13/10 04:27 PM)

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B0RNR3ADY
Stranger

Registered: 05/27/09
Posts: 70
Last seen: 1 month, 5 days

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: thunderfox]
#11822419 - 01/13/10 04:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Hmmm sounds plausible,
I know that I have developed mild HPPD symptoms after using 2C-E
However I dont regard the symptoms as a problem at all, their quite entertaining :smile:

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teeter
Mindfucked

Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 1,081
Loc: Philadelphia PA
Last seen: 1 month, 5 days

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: thunderfox]
#11822449 - 01/13/10 04:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Visual disturbances don't really bother me. I have them fairly strongly, but its just not a big deal. They are so easy to ignore and I barely notice them unless I think about it. Plus this isn't brain damage, its just a change in perception. LSD works in the brain by setting off a chain reaction, only a very small percentage of the already minute dose of LSD crosses the blood-brain barrier. Following that logic, it would be easy to assume that some of these effects could be long lasting. Who cares though? Any informed user knows the risks: mild possiblity of psychosis, risk of bad trips and risk of HPPD. There are no bad physical effects and LSD has not been shown to actually damage the brain in any function way. This study mearly shows that effects can be persistant. This isn't making the people in the study dumber, its just changing their vision a bit. If you do a lot of acid, your perception may be permanently altered, you may also have some trippier thought patterns and a new ability to understand complex topics and visualize things, creativity may be improved. The study shows that LSD effects are persistant, we already knew that. It doesn't point to brain damage. If I change the tires on your car, I haven't damaged it, I've just made a minor change. My life isn't ruined because I perceive mild fractals all over blank surfaces and because I see colors in the dark.

--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." - William Blake

"Psychedelics helped me to escape.. albeit momentarily.. from the prison of my mind. It over-rode the habit patterns of thought and I was able to taste innocence again. Looking at sensations freshly without the conceptual overly was very profound." - Ram Das

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LSDreamer
Psychedelic Atheist

Registered: 03/11/08
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: thunderfox]
#11822466 - 01/13/10 04:32 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

HPPD is not necessarily damage. Everybody who uses psychedelics knows about HPPD. Few people ever develop it, and few of the people who do care that they do, meaning the number of people who have their lives disrupted by HPPD is vanishingly small. You have more of a chance being injured in a car wreck.

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Shad0w
In trouble again.

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 3,639

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: teeter]
#11822490 - 01/13/10 04:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Who cares though?

I like your attitude. :mushroom2:

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thunderfox
Student of Perception

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 115
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: teeter]
#11822492 - 01/13/10 04:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, i was not talking about phisical damage. LSD people definitly cannot process visual data as good as people who have not used LSD. The question is: Do the advantages top the disadvantages?

To

Quote:

teeter said:
If I change the tires on your car, I haven't damaged it

If one of your weel always points a bit to the right, so that "the way your car drives is altered", it is damaged.

Thunderfox

--------------------
Trading B+ spore prints.

Looking for Penis Envy print.

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teeter
Mindfucked

Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 1,081
Loc: Philadelphia PA
Last seen: 1 month, 5 days

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: thunderfox]
#11822512 - 01/13/10 04:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
HPPD is not necessarily damage. Everybody who uses psychedelics knows about HPPD. Few people ever develop it, and few of the people who do care that they do, meaning the number of people who have their lives disrupted by HPPD is vanishingly small. You have more of a chance being injured in a car wreck.

Way more of a chance of being in a car crash. The chance of getting HPPD is like that chance of getting in a car wreck, just this year, not ever. The chance of giving a shit is even smaller. Its so not a big deal. Since you aren't high from [insert psychedelic] the visuals just stop being all that distracting. Plus they are far less intense than under the influence and you also quickly get used to them. If anything, it just makes you better at doodling and its fun to watch the tracers on people's hands when they are vigorously talking with their hands and boring you to death with their babble.

Quote:

Shad0w said:
Quote:

Who cares though?

I like your attitude.

I like it too! :tongue:

Quote:

thunderfox said:
Ok, i was not talking about phisical damage. LSD people definitly cannot process visual data as good as people who have not used LSD. The question is: Do the advantages top the disadvantages?

To
Quote:

teeter said:
If I change the tires on your car, I haven't damaged it

If one of your weel always points a bit to the right, so that "the way your car drives is altered", it is damaged.

Thunderfox

Good counter with the tires. I however feel that the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. The only people who dislike HPPD are people who have it REALLY bad to the point where its an impairment and also get anxiety about it due to the "When the fuck will I comedown, OH SHIT!!!" factor.

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Shad0w
In trouble again.

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 3,639

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: thunderfox]
#11822516 - 01/13/10 04:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Short Answer : The answer varies from individual. Most of it is opinion.

Mine is that whatever negative effect it MIGHT have on my mind, Are most assuredly, trumped by the enormous positive effects it has had on my mind. :thumbup:

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teeter
Mindfucked

Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 1,081
Loc: Philadelphia PA
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: Shad0w]
#11822550 - 01/13/10 04:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shad0w said:
Short Answer : The answer varies from individual. Most of it is opinion.

Mine is that whatever negative effect it MIGHT have on my mind, Are most assuredly, trumped by the enormous positive effects it has had on my mind.

TRUE DAT!

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Benzine
Stranger

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Loc: Russian Federation

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: teeter]
#11822730 - 01/13/10 05:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Something funny about this, I was doing MDMA a lot last year and I had some pretty bad hppd even after I stoped and for a few months. Than I did some strong mushrooms and had a rly good trip (hadnt done shrooms in a while and never done shrooms this potent of quality) and after that in the next weeks I noticed the xtc induced hppd which was bad was not worsened by doing shrooms, which are much more hallucinogenic, but it was fixed. For the first time in a while I had no hppd at all. Psilocybin fixed my receptors. I havnt done shrooms sense and I rly want to and I hope that they might fix the hppd I have now. Ive had it again ever sense I have done 2C E. And Iv also done a lot of acid and lately been doing Mescaline but they didnt have that fixing of hppd that shrooms gave me. I hope that it would happen again next time I do em and wasnt just a 1 time thing they had to offer

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oxalic32

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 3,615
Loc: .
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[Re: Benzine]
#11823885 - 01/13/10 07:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Edited by oxalic32 (12/19/10 11:57 PM)

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Lizardman
Reptilian Space Pope

Registered: 01/11/10
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: oxalic32]
#11824109 - 01/13/10 08:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The title is patently stupid, sorry.
Where do shrooms appear in the text you quoted?
The study is entirely about LSD.
Also, there's no brain damage involved.
Brain damage is an organic phenomenon, this is more of psychological issue. There has never been any evidence of LSD neurotoxicity, and i highly doubt there ever will.

As far as permanent perceptive changes are concerned, they do happen of course.
We already knew that (given that we have been smart enough to do our research, which is easy as pie nowadays).
One thing that strikes me about all studies regarding perceptive changes from acid is that most impairments affect areas that will not make you function any worse or otherwise pose a problem.
An exception are the few people who experience very severe forms of HPPD all the time and have trouble reading or making out details because their visuals get in the way.
Such cases are one of the reasons why i don't trip often, but not the most important one.
I don't feel the need to trip more than every couple of years in the first place- this isn't like weed, booze, amphetamines or other habituating substances, where all you retain from the high is a memory of "feels good man" and get the urge to do it again.
It's something that produces lasting experience and detailed, clear memories of your impressions, something that can inspire me for years.
It produces something instead of inspiring more and more consumption.
So tripping is always a conscious decision for me, not an act of indulging in a habit.
It's something i do when i have reached a specific point in my life, a time when i feel the need to once more go to my limits and undergo a rite of passage, as well as an experiment with substances that have always intrigued me.
It's about encountering something new and unique, an expedition into the unknown to expand my horizon.
So the main reasons why i trip would get lost if i did so all the time.
That's why i don't worry about such findings.
If i'd be tripping every weekend, this might be different, but the few people who do so have decided this for themselves and are both aware of and willing to live with the consequences (or at least they should be).

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Scudreloaded
psychonaut

Registered: 03/15/09
Posts: 2,981
Loc: Wonderland

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: Lizardman]
#11824435 - 01/13/10 09:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

sometimes i wish i had HPPD

--------------------
We were somewhere around Barstow on the edge of the desert when the drugs began to take hold. - Hunter S. Thompson

- believe what you may but take the internet with a grain of salt

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alexithymia
Smiling Puppy

Registered: 07/08/09
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: Scudreloaded]
#11824482 - 01/13/10 09:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Honestly, giving up a minute fraction of my visual ability is worth a lifetime of enlightenment in my opinion.

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Scudreloaded
psychonaut

Registered: 03/15/09
Posts: 2,981
Loc: Wonderland

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: alexithymia]
#11824556 - 01/13/10 09:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with myself more spiritually than before my entheogen experiences that i do feel have awakened me to new things and thought patterns in life.
Think about it guys. We see and know of things some don't within the world.

--------------------
We were somewhere around Barstow on the edge of the desert when the drugs began to take hold. - Hunter S. Thompson

- believe what you may but take the internet with a grain of salt

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teeter
Mindfucked

Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 1,081
Loc: Philadelphia PA
Last seen: 1 month, 5 days

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: Scudreloaded]
#11825369 - 01/13/10 11:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Scudreloaded said:
sometimes i wish i had HPPD

Its mad fun. When I'm bored I throw on The Universe (history channel) and listen to trippy particle physics and stuff like that while I make tracers with my laser pointer. :aweoverdose:

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Scudreloaded
psychonaut

Registered: 03/15/09
Posts: 2,981
Loc: Wonderland

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: teeter]
#11825437 - 01/13/10 11:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

i don't feel like shrooms give effects that i feel the day after. other than maybe just coming back to reality.
the 2c-b illies i had once i had flashes of pink tin the sky whenever i'd stand up after a while of sitting. Wouldnt mind stuff a long the lines of that again.
Cant find LSD which is a bummer to me, i'll keep looking.
Never had an day after Ketamine effects either.

--------------------
We were somewhere around Barstow on the edge of the desert when the drugs began to take hold. - Hunter S. Thompson

- believe what you may but take the internet with a grain of salt

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Mykologist
Often too lazy to post...

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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: Shad0w]
#11825497 - 01/14/10 12:00 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not going to stop tripping mushrooms a couple times a year just because I wont be able to sit in a lab testing room and tell some PhD if the light in front of me is flashing fast enough. :wtf:

A few things I don't like about the study:

-no estimates on the amount/frequency of LSD use

-doesn't explain why HPPD patients scored WORSE when both have ingested the same chemical
and (a little farther fetched...)

-we're comparing LSD users' vision to that of "regular," sober peoples vision to standardize "impairment." I agree with what some of what I've heard on this thread, perspective change. This is the same reason why younger children score proportionally higher on IQ tests; because their psychology is so much different than an adult's.

meh who gives a damn. I haven't noticed a THING. Literally, I haven't noticed any physical repercussions of my drug use other than some lag during times of heavy pot use.

I'm not the one to care if my vision is impaired to some obscure degree that I can't notice in everyday life. I see nature, it's still beautiful (if not more beautiful) as when I was a kid. I read books and my mind is doing just lovely.

Quote:

Shad0w said:
Short Answer : The answer varies from individual. Most of it is opinion.

Mine is that whatever negative effect it MIGHT have on my mind, Are most assuredly, trumped by the enormous positive effects it has had on my mind.

Stole the motherfucking words outta my ass.
Myk

--------------------

Where would you rather be?

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: Mykologist]
#11825889 - 01/14/10 12:53 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, it does seem like LSD tends to degrade visual change response time in its users for a long period of time after its use... presumably this is similar to how trails work; neurons in the visual cortex are stimulated for much longer than normal under the influence of the psychedelic which leaves an after-image of whatever you are viewing and having this effect persist during sobriety makes it harder to tell when the sensory event that caused the original firing of the neuron in the visual cortex has stopped occurring.

However, it's unclear how much LSD usage is required to reach this point during ordinary life and whether this finding also applies to other psychedelics. The benefits of responsible LSD usage far outweigh the possibility of this minor degradation in response time IMO, however, unless you're an air-traffic controller, pilot, racecar driver, or something equally ridiculous that requires extreme visual acuity. If you're extremely concerned about it then minimize your dosage and frequency of use of LSD or preferably switch to another psychedelic.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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appleorange
Rainbow Technician

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: deCypher]
#11826350 - 01/14/10 02:09 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

teeter,

is HPPD permanent? can you describe to me what it is like? never heard or met anyone who had it.

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: appleorange]
#11826364 - 01/14/10 02:12 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.hppdonline.com/forum/index.php

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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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LSDreamer
Psychedelic Atheist

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 8,638
Last seen: 8 months, 7 days

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: appleorange]
#11826375 - 01/14/10 02:13 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
teeter,

is HPPD permanent? can you describe to me what it is like? never heard or met anyone who had it.

HPPD usually fades when you stop using.

--------------------

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appleorange
Rainbow Technician

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: LSDreamer]
#11826439 - 01/14/10 02:30 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

i'm all freaked out now. most of the people who have this come across as miserable. one guy on that forum has had it for 18 years.

constant floaters and trails?

when focusing on something, everything else becomes distorted and wavy?

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LSDreamer
Psychedelic Atheist

Registered: 03/11/08
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: appleorange]
#11826448 - 01/14/10 02:34 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Well, let it bother you if you want. It's a fairly low risk.

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deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: appleorange]
#11826462 - 01/14/10 02:38 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
i'm all freaked out now. most of the people who have this come across as miserable. one guy on that forum has had it for 18 years.

constant floaters and trails?

when focusing on something, everything else becomes distorted and wavy?

Keep in mind that the HPPD forum is a biased sample of people who have had significant problems stemming from their drug use whereas the Shroomery is a biased sample of people who have used psychedelics to generally very little ill effect. There is the exception to every rule; just be aware that psychedelic drugs can fuck you up even if this is rare.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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appleorange
Rainbow Technician

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: deCypher]
#11826489 - 01/14/10 02:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I've heard HPPD get dropped once or twice, but always was under the impression you just saw floaters for a couple days afterwards.

I feel really bad for some of the people on that forum though.

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Lucas89
lysergicmescalcybin

Registered: 07/03/08
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: appleorange]
#11826520 - 01/14/10 02:55 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

meh i like hppd, i see it as permanent free acid. i constantly feel like im on a low dose of acid. doesnt bother me to the slightest.

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thunderfox
Student of Perception

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 115
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: appleorange]
#11827277 - 01/14/10 10:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
I've heard HPPD get dropped once or twice, but always was under the impression you just saw floaters for a couple days afterwards.

I feel really bad for some of the people on that forum though.

yeah, me too. I also was in this forum before I opened this thread. These people there are really fucked.

Days after I took a low dosis of shrooms (first time) I still see colors very intense. Thats what scares me, what happens if I take a high dosis.

--------------------
Trading B+ spore prints.

Looking for Penis Envy print.

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StickyRicky
Stranger

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Loc: Ont.

Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: thunderfox]
#11827951 - 01/14/10 01:42 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

id say for most people there is a ceiling to how bad it can get, as in it doesn't get worse and worse with every trip. And also the vast majority of hppd people will get better over time without tripping.

I myself have it (through frequent use after like 100 trips), its not all that bad. Sometimes it can be mildly annoying, but it doesn't interfere with my daily life and its only really noticeable if I'm just staring at something and doing nothing.
When I'm busy or out and about i rarely ever notice it.

So basically if you don't want it, don't trip every week or more for months/years on end. and if you do get it, life goes on and you will adjust and probably recover.

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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist

Registered: 05/03/08
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: thunderfox]
#11828017 - 01/14/10 01:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

thunderfox said:
Ok, i was not talking about phisical damage. LSD people definitly cannot process visual data as good as people who have not used LSD.

what sort of "damage" are you referring to? did these "studies" show lesions in V1 cortex of those with HPPD?

my past LSD use hasn't impaired any aspect of my vision, and MRIs haven't showed any lesions in my visual cortex.
my night vision is still acute in my 30's, and I don't use/need glasses. I also think you underestimate brain elasticity; the visual cortex isn't quite like the cochlear organ (auditory), damage isn't necessarily permanent.

--------------------
"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.
In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." ~R.A. Wilson

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highdroponics
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: piracetam]
#11828116 - 01/14/10 02:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I think I have that visual problem.

So this really wouldn't surprise me, I got it more from using RCs than anything else though.

--------------------
Dr :ronpaul:

says to stop trying to treat the side-effects of big government and focus on the core issues. End the Federal Reserve/audit the gold reserves at Fort Knox, abolish the IRS, end all wars and occupancies, stop the building of an empire that will inevitably fail, and cut all unconstitutional federal programs. Put the power back in the peoples' hands by ending this nanny-state.

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teeter
Mindfucked

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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: piracetam]
#11828135 - 01/14/10 02:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I have it pretty mildly compared to people that actually have the "disorder." Its more like aftereffects that are really strong for me. I see fractals all over everything, but they are really light and transparent and contain no color, so they are really easy to ignore. I also see much longer than natural tracers, especially out of the corners of my eye. If someone is talking with their hands and I look over for a second, I will see massive tracers coming off their hans, but once I focus back in on them, the tracers will be less noticable. Its not really a big deal at all, absolutely zero subjective impairment.

The people that are miserable are the ones that have it so bad they can't read; which is like 1% of the already super small percentage of people that experience HPPD symptoms.

It does go away when you stop tripping and it goes away even faster if you stop smoking weed too. At least, this is the case for most people. Mine doesn't bother me so I've made no attempt to get rid of it.

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highdroponics
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: teeter]
#11828455 - 01/14/10 03:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

It's nothing to stop me from continuing my psychedelic use, but i definitely wish it could be fixed as it can be annoying at times.

I have come to the conclusion that this is mostly from using 2c-x chemicals though, as 2c-i feels to me like I'm never coming down and I still can't help but feel like I never did because of the visual distortions I still have to put up with.

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silosighbin
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: highdroponics]
#11828478 - 01/14/10 03:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

getting stoned gives me visuals now. it's the best fucking thing in the world when i go to sleep. thanks to hppd... fuck it it'll go away someday once i stop use psychedelics but for now i'm enjoying it for a few years .... :deemsters:

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Lizardman
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: silosighbin]
#11828550 - 01/14/10 03:51 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silosighbin said:
getting stoned gives me visuals now.

Same here, and with a lot of other people as well.
Some people object to it when i refer to this as "HPPD" or "flashbacks" (DSM-IV doesn't though) and they do have a point, as smoking weed has become more psychedelic in general and i attribute this more to an increased awareness of such effects than any actual change in visual processing.
Either way, at this level, it's pretty much fun, as i can turn it on and off almost at will by taking a specific substance.
It doesn't happen when i smoke frequently, though.

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silosighbin
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: Lizardman]
#11828582 - 01/14/10 03:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lizardman said:
Quote:

silosighbin said:
getting stoned gives me visuals now.

Same here, and with a lot of other people as well.
Some people object to it when i refer to this as "HPPD" or "flashbacks" (DSM-IV doesn't though) and they do have a point, as smoking weed has become more psychedelic in general and i attribute this more to an increased awareness of such effects than any actual change in visual processing.
Either way, at this level, it's pretty much fun, as i can turn it on and off almost at will by taking a specific substance.
It doesn't happen when i smoke frequently, though.

yeah trust me I know a lot about HPPD... i've actually found medicine that works for it but really only klonopin and that shit's crazy addictive. i'd rather just cope with a stranger reality :shrug:

at least i will have lived an original life i guess.

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Whitewater
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: silosighbin]
#11828973 - 01/14/10 04:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I defenetely could be wrong, but I think HPPD might really by some manifestation of an anxiety disorder. (I know nothing about HPPD :wink:

). I sometimes can be a hypochondriac :tongue:

and am aware of how entwined the physical functioning of your body is with your psychological state. When I read accounts of HPPD, I feel like I've had mild HPPD since I was a child. It seems plausible then, that if I had some negative experiences with psyches, felt they were bad for me in someway, or was already scared of the possibility of HPPD I could see my natural visual disturbances in a new way and become scared of it, causing them to exaggerate. I dunno, I don't mean to offend anyone with it if because I know it can seriously ruin quality of life, just an idea. And, for the record, I love my visual disturbances :stoned:

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thunderfox
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: Whitewater]
#11829106 - 01/14/10 05:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Whitewater said:
I defenetely could be wrong, but I think HPPD might really by some manifestation of an anxiety disorder.

Nice idea, but I don't think so. The altered perception is completly independend from emotional states AFAIK.

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Lizardman
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: Whitewater]
#11829142 - 01/14/10 05:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The thing with psychedelics is, they really make you pay more attention to the things you see.
Just consider the following about being on LSD for the first time :
- you make the experience that you cannot take what you see for granted
- you automatically scrutinize everything you see with extreme curiosity
- you are also that much easier impressed and conditioned by your experiences
It's no surprise that this changes the way you perceive the world.

Like everybody, i've occasionally seen floaters since forever, but after i grew up, i never consciously noticed them again until i was coming up on LSD for the first time and saw them everywhere (in fact, i have never seen as many floaters in my whole life as in this moment- after reading up on them and their entoptic nature, i wonder if this was due to the onset of the nystagmus that is typical for LSD).
After watching them in a state where i was eagerly waiting for optical phenomena to happen, is it any surprise that i pay attention to floaters again?

I could say similar things about hypnagogic hallucinations.

A lot of people read about HPPD, mistake these effects for it and get all hypochondriac.
Don't do this. You are not working on improving an actual medical condition this way, you are just making integration of your experience more difficult.

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owls
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: thunderfox]
#11829151 - 01/14/10 05:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

yes, there are definately changes that come along with psychedelic use,

but they are in no way ever detrimental (unless you let them be)

my opinion is: who gives a fuck, tripping is so worth it and these plants are sacred

edit: psilocybin/LSD are in absolutely no way capable of causing "permanent brain damage"

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Edited by owls (01/14/10 05:13 PM)

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Cloudkicker
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: owls]
#11829172 - 01/14/10 05:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Why focus on the negatives LSD does when the only negative for most ppl is a very very mild vision impairment(if you even want to use the word impair) , why not focus on the HUGE amount of positivity this drug brings to us

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owls
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: LSDreamer]
#11829189 - 01/14/10 05:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Quote:

appleorange said:
teeter,

is HPPD permanent? can you describe to me what it is like? never heard or met anyone who had it.

HPPD usually fades when you stop using.

sorry to double post, but this is totally incorrect. for those who aquire genuine HPPD, it does not simply "fade away" with time. the visuals that HPPDers experience constantly are hardwired into the brain

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you are beautiful! :rockon:

COME TOGETHER, JOIN THE PARTY!!

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owls
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: thunderfox]
#11829236 - 01/14/10 05:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

thunderfox said:
If one of your weel always points a bit to the right, so that "the way your car drives is altered", it is damaged.

Thunderfox

did you ever consider the possibility that psychedelics might not be for you? :tongue:

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i love you ♥

you are beautiful! :rockon:

COME TOGETHER, JOIN THE PARTY!!

"what beith a man if he doth not enjoy cannabis?" :mushroom2:

Edited by owls (01/14/10 05:23 PM)

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owls
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: thunderfox]
#11829237 - 01/14/10 05:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

thunderfox said:
If one of your weel always points a bit to the right, so that "the way your car drives is altered", it is damaged.

Thunderfox

did you ever consider the possibility that psychedelics might not be for you? :tongue:

--------------------
i love you ♥

you are beautiful! :rockon:

COME TOGETHER, JOIN THE PARTY!!

"what beith a man if he doth not enjoy cannabis?" :mushroom2:

Edited by owls (01/14/10 05:22 PM)

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piracetam
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: owls]
#11829256 - 01/14/10 05:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

owls said:
Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Quote:

appleorange said:
teeter,

is HPPD permanent? can you describe to me what it is like? never heard or met anyone who had it.

HPPD usually fades when you stop using.

sorry to double post, but this is totally incorrect. for those who aquire genuine HPPD, it does not simply "fade away" with time. the visuals that HPPDers experience constantly are hardwired into the brain

where's the solid evidence of this?
I don't believe this at all.
there is seldom anything that's hardwired into the brain that wasn't already there (i.e. genetically predisposed)

--------------------
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In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." ~R.A. Wilson

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LSDreamer
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: owls]
#11829280 - 01/14/10 05:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

owls said:
Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Quote:

appleorange said:
teeter,

is HPPD permanent? can you describe to me what it is like? never heard or met anyone who had it.

HPPD usually fades when you stop using.

sorry to double post, but this is totally incorrect. for those who aquire genuine HPPD, it does not simply "fade away" with time. the visuals that HPPDers experience constantly are hardwired into the brain

You're totally wrong. Very few cases of HPPD are permanent. Unless you define HPPD as permanent, in which case there's incredibly few cases of HPPD.

--------------------

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owls
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: piracetam]
#11829287 - 01/14/10 05:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

exactly. go to hppdonline.com and read about it

people who get HPPD were already predisposed to it

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i love you ♥

you are beautiful! :rockon:

COME TOGETHER, JOIN THE PARTY!!

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owls
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: LSDreamer]
#11829298 - 01/14/10 05:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Quote:

owls said:
Quote:

LSDreamer said:
Quote:

appleorange said:
teeter,

is HPPD permanent? can you describe to me what it is like? never heard or met anyone who had it.

HPPD usually fades when you stop using.

sorry to double post, but this is totally incorrect. for those who aquire genuine HPPD, it does not simply "fade away" with time. the visuals that HPPDers experience constantly are hardwired into the brain

You're totally wrong. Very few cases of HPPD are permanent. Unless you define HPPD as permanent, in which case there's incredibly few cases of HPPD.

exactly, you answered your own question. chances of getting HPPD are 1 in a million

--------------------
i love you ♥

you are beautiful! :rockon:

COME TOGETHER, JOIN THE PARTY!!

"what beith a man if he doth not enjoy cannabis?" :mushroom2:

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thunderfox
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: owls]
#11829340 - 01/14/10 05:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

owls said:
Quote:

thunderfox said:
If one of your weel always points a bit to the right, so that "the way your car drives is altered", it is damaged.

Thunderfox

did you ever consider the possibility that psychedelics might not be for you?

Yes. And you, do you reflect about your actions?

By the way: Why do you make three posts in a row for 4 sentences?

@piracetam: I have to agree that HPPD lasts for months or years in most cases. References are already in this thread.

Thunderfox

PS: what the fuck, two new one-sentence-posts from you, owls. Stop spamming.

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senya
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: appleorange]
#11829638 - 01/14/10 06:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

ive never used lsd and ive eaten mushrooms only once. however, i do ingest weed daily and i can say that i may have a very mild form of hppd. the symptoms i experience are: flashing balls of light in the dark, seeing flashes of colors like red or green in the dark, seeing dark spots out of the corner of my eye when nothing dark is there, perceiving a sound as a completely different sound, seeing trails with every light that stands alone and when im out in sunlight not looking directly at the ground, the ground looks as if it its rushing like a river underneath me. these symptoms could make some people feel miserable or scared but ive gotten used to them now and i kind of enjoy them actually.

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briant230

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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: thunderfox]
#11829956 - 01/14/10 07:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, I would hardly classify having slight visual disturbances as brain damage. Yes a change in perception, but I've yet to hear a case that was life altering, or even really anything that effected their daily lives for more than a few weeks tops, and usually the people who had it bad for days or a week were people who had been using copious amounts for awhile and usually the last time they ingested was a massive dose. I've had floaters since I was to young to even know what LSD was, I don't know if that should really be considered HPPD.

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StickyRicky
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: briant230]
#11830391 - 01/14/10 08:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

floaters doesn't = hppd, symptoms like static overlaid on your vision, trails from moving objects, slight movement or breathing, and after images are the more obvious ones.

I think that it could be easily a negative thing to some people, my case isn't so bad and i accepted it without much trouble, but not everyone would be so accepting of these symptoms. Especially since its not often talked about as a potential consequence so many people are unaware this is even a possibility.

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briant230

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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: StickyRicky]
#11830696 - 01/14/10 09:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

How bad are your symptoms StickyRicky? and how long have they been occurring?

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highdroponics
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: StickyRicky]
#11830758 - 01/14/10 09:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

StickyRicky said:
static overlaid on your vision, trails from moving objects, slight movement or breathing.

This is what I have.

And because I have it I don't notice it nearly as much when I'm actually tripping, it used to be much, much more intense, now it just seems normal.

Edited by highdroponics (01/14/10 09:13 PM)

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StickyRicky
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: briant230]
#11830922 - 01/14/10 09:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

at the moment actually its been pretty tame compared with before, i think it might be subsiding slowly. Ive had it for 8-12 months i'd geuss, although i didnt stop tripping entirely so that probably kept it going.
I have symptoms like when i look at text or something and if i look away at the wall i can see a faint negative image of the lines projected onto the wall, if i wave my arm i get trails like up to a foot long although not as intense as when tripping. And i have moving static (its like what i see with my eyes closed is still visible with my eyes open)that is most apparent in certain lighting, sometimes there is specks of color and things mixed in. And more rarely what im looking at might start crawling a bit.

That all sounds pretty scary and intense, but after a little while it becomes normal and fades into the background. I don't notice it too much nowadays unless i purposefully look for it.

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StickyRicky
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: StickyRicky]
#11830952 - 01/14/10 09:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

at its worst a room would appear to be filled with thick static, with little buzzing movement happening all over the place in my peripheral vision and was sometimes impossible to ignore.

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Scudreloaded
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Re: Significant! LSD/Shrooms damage your brain permanently!

[Re: StickyRicky]
#11831754 - 01/14/10 11:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

i don't think that shrooms damage the brain. Once i was in a deep binge of em and people said i talked a little slower and spoke in riddles and very philospical. But soon later my voice got back to normal speed and i still talk philosopical but i lessened the riddles.
I can only describe it in one way.
A door opened in my head and it just took me a little bit to understand it.
As for HPPD and what not, i believe it goes away with time.

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