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 kablamo
the Brave
Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Japan
Last seen: 11 months, 23 days
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 Drug testing welfare recipients 
#11244327 - 10/14/09 08:27 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I got a forwarded e-mail from my mother, a right wing conservative christian, where as I am a Libertarian constitutionalist psychedelic head.
Quote:
“Like a lot of folks in this state, I have a job. I work, they pay me. I pay my taxes and the government distributes my taxes as it sees fit. In order to get that paycheck, I am required to pass a random urine test with which I have no problem.
What I do have a problem with is the distribution of my taxes to people who don’t have to pass a urine test. Shouldn’t one have to pass a drug test to get a welfare check because I have to pass one to earn it for them?
Please understand, I have no problem with helping people get back on their feet. I do, on the other hand, have a problem with helping someone sitting on their butt, making babies or doing drugs, while I work. Can you imagine how much money the state would save if people had to pass a drug test to get a public assistance check?”
My response is this: Private companies choose to drug test you. If you are too much of a tool to keep weirdos from sniffing your peepee, then that's your problem. It's not a welfare recipient's problem.
You assholes (not shroomerites) keep telling me "If you have such a problem with drug testing then just go work somewhere else." Well, take that and shove it up your ass because YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO GO WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE TOO. Nobody is forcing you to work for those companies that want to be your nannies, so you can't say shit to other people.
Meanwhile I search for this post on the internet and find countless blogs that post it and read line after line after line after line after line after line after line supporting this thing, not only supporting it, but saying, we need to drug test every citizen to get a drivers license.
 
Seriously, what the fuck. What. The. Fuck.
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 Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck 
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 Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: kablamo]
#11244384 - 10/14/09 08:55 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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while I dont agree with drug testing for drivers licenses, I certainly do
support it for collecting government benefits, go hang out at the welfare
office for an afternoon and when you see the bitch in her huge new SUV
with the 22" spinners you may reconsider, I also believe these people
should be kept under light surveillance for a few months and spot checks
throughout the year. I've seen plenty of abuse with the system and it's
not simply because people can exploit it, it's because there's little in
place to prevent exploitation and nothing done to stop it when it's occurring
remember, it's your tax dollars paying for some woman to help support
her live in jobless boyfriends crack/meth habit, you should be concerned
with whom the money is actually benefiting
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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Fraggin
Multi-Faceted
Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 8,707
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11244585 - 10/14/09 10:20 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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At this rate Microsoft will be drug testing you before you can enroll on xbox live.
But, then again. Drug tests are not only easy to beat, but very few companies actually do random ua's. Using Drugs is a privelage, not a right.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Fraggin]
#11247029 - 10/14/09 05:59 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Still drug tests disproportionately punish marijuana users over users of other drugs that do not show up as easily on drug tests. It may be difficult for someone who is honestly on welfare and only using marijuana occasionally to afford to cheat a drug test, while someone who spends every cent on booze gets off "clean". Until Marijuana policy changes this will be a bad idea.
If people wanted to bust the crackers and tweakers on welfare spot tests would have to be administered a day or two after welfare checks are issued.
I am unsure as to how I would feel about this. I usually don't feel bad at all when those sorts of people die, but something does seem a bit mean-spirited about it.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
Edited by ScavengerType (10/14/09 06:04 PM)
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DreamRoom
Hunter
Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 81
Loc: 60 miles from New Orleans
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Welfare is a privilege, not a right. Welfare is there to help responsible people get back on their feet. If you can't be responsible enough to get off drugs for the time being, then you aren't a good candidate for receiving free money. I don't believe in the current welfare system at all, but I know it is there for a good reason. We don't need people taking advantage of a good thing and running it bankrupt right when one of us needs it (God Forbid).
As far as cannabis goes, I think that the world would be a much better place if that was taken off all but the most necessary drug tests (CIA, high risk/liability jobs, etc).
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: DreamRoom]
#11247749 - 10/14/09 08:03 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't agree unless one were to add alcohol to the same drug tests.
I should add I've never seen or heard of a drug test that tests for mushrooms.
And finally to the point. I'm not sure welfare is so much for people to get back on their feet. Many disability welfare cases will never get back on their feet (no pun intended). Welfare is also issued to mothers who are not being (sufficiently) supported by their partner (if they have one). There are many reasons to support people on welfare outside of "helping people get back on their feet" that is often cited by people who either reject or misunderstand the role of the modern welfare state. It is for supporting those who have been prevented from supporting them-selves, this means disability (motherhood), chronic unemployment (high unemployment rates or low amount of unskilled jobs) and perhaps even crippling drug addiction.
To take unemployable people and keep them from the means to survive is cruel and results in a lot of crime and other undesirable social outcomes. It is likely the reason some people get into illegal activities (drug dealing, whoring/pimping to name a few) while on welfare. It would be difficult to measure the social expense of not keeping a proper welfare system on a society.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: kablamo]
#11247852 - 10/14/09 08:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Before we start worrying about drug testing welfare recipients, I think we should drug test all publicly elected politicians and appointed judges.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Seuss]
#11247959 - 10/14/09 08:29 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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...and deny all applicants who test negative for pot.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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DreamRoom
Hunter
Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 81
Loc: 60 miles from New Orleans
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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If you can't support yourself, that means you can't afford basic needs. If you can't afford basic needs, you shouldn't be doing drugs. I'm not completely convinced that this means we should drug test all welfare recipients, but I will not feel sorry for them if they do start to.
I understand what you are saying. It is very easy for me to say while sitting in my nice home, typing on my mac, with no worry of having to apply for welfare anytime in the near or distant future.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 24,804
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: DreamRoom]
#11248048 - 10/14/09 08:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DreamRoom said:
If you can't support yourself, that means you can't afford basic needs. If you can't afford basic needs, you shouldn't be doing drugs.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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DreamRoom
Hunter
Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 81
Loc: 60 miles from New Orleans
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Also, if you look at my first post I did say I don't agree with the "current welfare system" I also said that I know it is there for a good reason.
By this I was trying to convey that I believe there are people who really do need it, and for more than one reason. The idea of a welfare system is a great one. It shouldn't be looked down upon, it should be fixed, weening out the people who take advantage of it. Would drug testing do that? maybe.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: DreamRoom]
#11248260 - 10/14/09 09:15 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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the ones taking advantage of it are the ones beating the system currently. I don't think any manner of drug test will sort pimps and drug dealers or people taking the cheques and working for cash on the side out.
Also chronic drug(crack/meth) addicts are the ones who likely would create the most crime problems were they without the money afforded to them by welfare. Additionally many of them are nuisances or even liabilities on the job until they can end their habits. When was the last time you felt entirely safe around a meth addict running a forklift? The only reason to drug screen on welfare was if you were willing to offer rehab programs.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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DreamRoom
Hunter
Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 81
Loc: 60 miles from New Orleans
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Shits weak. Have you ever been to new orleans or heard of the immense amount of crime coupled with one biggest welfare population in the country. You drug test them, you cut half of them off from dependence from the government, saving us half of the money used to go to someone else’s addiction.
In my ideal world that I see inside of my head, we would use this savings to fund rehab programs. Prisons do not convert addicts into model citizens to say the least.
A good idea would be to: instead of cutting their welfare funding and forcing them into 24/7 crime, keep them on welfare as long as they are in a rehab program. Relapses happen, so a one strike your out would not work either, but at what point do you draw the line. How much federal money should go towards funding illegal activity?
Or you could fund the police department to battle the extra crime. They could use it.
There are many ways that our money could be put to better use.
Long term dependence just is not the answer. The people who advocate welfare (Liberals mostly) would not be able to win important elections without the welfare state. Liberals need poor people to depend on them.
We could argue this for days, the best we can hope for is to balance each others opinions. Most times the right answer is in the middle of the two extremes.
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DreamRoom
Hunter
Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 81
Loc: 60 miles from New Orleans
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: DreamRoom]
#11248522 - 10/14/09 09:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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My ideal testing/rehab program is actually a possibility. After doing a bit of research I found this:
The bill would require any savings and additional money to go to increased drug treatment programs. Those who test positive for drugs would have to receive treatment or lose their welfare check, LaBruzzo said.
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/05/house_committee_revives_welfar.html
It's not perfect but if you can't at least go to rehab after testing positive then you are obviously one of the systems abusers.
P.S. I hate when government intervenes in daily lives, but we need to be more efficient with our dollars, and by applying for welfare you are asking the government to directly intervene in you daily life in a positive way.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: kablamo]
#11249150 - 10/14/09 11:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Drug testing welfare recipients
Seems redundant. 
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: DieCommie]
#11250187 - 10/15/09 02:08 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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The problem is not just the crime but the imprisonment as well. It cost a whole lot to imprison people in comparison to simply giving them money for their fix. Indeed heroin or smack can be a far cheaper prison to contain them in than an actual jail.
Rehab funding is far cheaper than prison when it works.
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: DieCommie]
#11253137 - 10/15/09 03:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Drug testing welfare recipients
Seems redundant.
Indeed. And yeah, I'm with Scavenger. Test for alcohol, too. And nicotine.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Still drug tests disproportionately punish marijuana users over users of other drugs that do not show up as easily on drug tests.
if you're on welfare you shouldnt be able to afford marijuana or crack
cocaine, if you can afford drugs on welfare you obviously have plenty of
cash and dont need welfare
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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royer
±±±±±±±±±±
Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 4,792
Loc: anywhere but here
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11253169 - 10/15/09 03:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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--------------------
=================================================
if you have any questions please feel free to pm me , thx :-)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: royer]
#11253656 - 10/15/09 04:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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if you have 22" rims on your news SUV you probably dont need welfare
either, unfortunately there's no piss test for fraud
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,575
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11255183 - 10/15/09 08:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
while I dont agree with drug testing for drivers licenses, I certainly do
support it for collecting government benefits, go hang out at the welfare
office for an afternoon and when you see the bitch in her huge new SUV
with the 22" spinners you may reconsider, I also believe these people
should be kept under light surveillance for a few months and spot checks
throughout the year. I've seen plenty of abuse with the system and it's
not simply because people can exploit it, it's because there's little in
place to prevent exploitation and nothing done to stop it when it's occurring
remember, it's your tax dollars paying for some woman to help support
her live in jobless boyfriends crack/meth habit, you should be concerned
with whom the money is actually benefiting
ronald reagan was a lying sack of shit.. and i cant believe ppl are still listening to all his bullshit 5+ years since hes' been pushing up the daisys'.. and 20+ years since he was POTUS...there never was..and still isnt..such a thing as a pink-cadillac-driving-welfare-queen.. it was just an excuse to fund reagans' tax cuts for the wealthy with former welfare funding...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,030
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Annapurna1]
#11255262 - 10/15/09 08:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annapurna1 said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
while I dont agree with drug testing for drivers licenses, I certainly do
support it for collecting government benefits, go hang out at the welfare
office for an afternoon and when you see the bitch in her huge new SUV
with the 22" spinners you may reconsider, I also believe these people
should be kept under light surveillance for a few months and spot checks
throughout the year. I've seen plenty of abuse with the system and it's
not simply because people can exploit it, it's because there's little in
place to prevent exploitation and nothing done to stop it when it's occurring
remember, it's your tax dollars paying for some woman to help support
her live in jobless boyfriends crack/meth habit, you should be concerned
with whom the money is actually benefiting
ronald reagan was a lying sack of shit.. and i cant believe ppl are still listening to all his bullshit 5+ years since hes' been pushing up the daisys'.. and 20+ years since he was POTUS...there never was..and still isnt..such a thing as a pink-cadillac-driving-welfare-queen.. it was just an excuse to fund reagans' tax cuts for the wealthy with former welfare funding...
bullshit. there are houses right on my street that are clearly welfare recipients. you know what else they do? sell illicit substances. they drive around in HUGE vehicles, and technically have no income and thus qualify for "aid."
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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 24,804
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Annapurna1]
#11255265 - 10/15/09 08:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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You can't seriously be claiming that welfare fraud is non-existent.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 2 years, 29 days
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Annapurna1]
#11256200 - 10/15/09 10:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't think you would recognize the truth, through the fog of your prejudice! People that actually need help can't get it, because of the massive fraud. 
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Annapurna1]
#11256405 - 10/15/09 11:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annapurna1 said:
ronald reagan was a lying sack of shit.. and i cant believe ppl are still listening to all his bullshit 5+ years since hes' been pushing up the daisys'.. and 20+ years since he was POTUS...there never was..and still isnt..such a thing as a pink-cadillac-driving-welfare-queen.. it was just an excuse to fund reagans' tax cuts for the wealthy with former welfare funding...
yeah, it's just a coincidence that the parking lot has a half dozen of
them parked there, I grew up in the low income housing, knew a bunch of
families on welfare driving caddy, lincoln and mercedes, I've seen it
recently when I went to show DFCS proof of insurance on my kids, I
walked in one door and big momma whom I parked next to dragged her kids
into the other door for her welfare appointment
the was a mexican family near me that was living in a half million
dollar home busted for welfare fraud, 3 adults working business's under
the table and drawing welfare with kids in the catholic school
absolutely, fraud is non existant
not my neighbor hood but hey... since they dont exist
Quote:
http://www.dss.cahwnet.gov/fraud/PG270.htm
May 2007 – Los Angeles County
Lana M. and her husband collected welfare benefits in 2003, claiming they earned less than $24,000. But authorities say Lana M., the former office manager of a job-training center for immigrant welfare recipients, also owned a liquor store and recycling business. Authorities say, she drove a $76,000 luxury car, shopped at Neiman Marcus and Saks Fifth Avenue and had $147,980 stashed in her bedroom dresser.
Quote:
http://www.nbc11news.com/home/headlines/33443284.html
former Colorado State Trooper who plead guilty to welfare fraud recieved his sentence Tuesday morning.
Meanwhile, court documents say his ranch was pulling in $49,000 and he was collecting anywhere from $800 to more $2,000 in Veteran's benefits. They say he owned atleast four cars, a utility trailer and three ATVs.
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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Jaegar
Stranger
Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 895
Last seen: 6 days, 9 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11257964 - 10/16/09 06:55 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have to agree that to cut them off from welfare and force them into crime and prison cells sounds allot more expensive.
the state would not make any savings from such a proposal.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Jaegar]
#11258033 - 10/16/09 07:26 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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if they can afford new cars, fancy cloths, etc... while on welfare,
they're already committing more than one crime, cutting them off of
welfare wouldnt force them into anything, they can just continue what
they were doing and what ever happens, happens
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,030
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Jaegar]
#11258035 - 10/16/09 07:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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you're right, it's better to continue giving them money that was confiscated from productive members of society
--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Yrat]
#11258125 - 10/16/09 08:04 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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while working under the table or dealing dope and committing welfare
fraud, any way you try and look at it, they're eligible for prison
and at least while they're in prison we take care of them and know
that they're only getting what they deserve
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Yrat]
#11258440 - 10/16/09 10:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said:
you're right, it's better to continue giving them money that was confiscated from productive members of society
Yes, because putting them in jail would be free, right? 
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,030
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Redstorm]
#11258503 - 10/16/09 10:19 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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of course not, but it is absurd to rationalize their continued handouts by arguing, "well, it's either this, or paying for jail."
perhaps the discontinuation of the free money would inspire some to achieve legitimate sources of income and become productive members of society. the threat of jail is certainly a motivating factor.
for those who would choose to continue with their risk taking, well, that's entirely their choice. and they can assume responsibility for their actions if caught.
--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Redstorm]
#11259700 - 10/16/09 02:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Yrat said:
you're right, it's better to continue giving them money that was confiscated from productive members of society
Yes, because putting them in jail would be free, right?
Not free but definitely cheaper. Five of them in jail is much cheaper than a hundred on welfare.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11259742 - 10/16/09 02:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Where do "five" and "one hundred" come from?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Redstorm]
#11260136 - 10/16/09 03:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I made them up to make a point. Generous welfare causes excess welfare recipients. Why work, even if you can, when you have a guaranteed income? See UK. Rather than turn to crime don't you think most will do their utmost to get a real job? Why do you assume that just because people are lazy they will naturally turn to crime if they don't get handouts? Maybe they'll make a decision not to have that baby they can't support.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11260581 - 10/16/09 05:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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> Why do you assume that just because people are lazy they will naturally turn to crime if they don't get handouts?
The original premise was welfare recipients use fraudulent means to increase their handout and welfare recipients sell illegal drugs to supplement their income, thus welfare recipients, being inclined to breaking the law, will most likely continue to break the law were welfare taken away. (Not that I agree with this point, but that is where the assumption is coming from.)
A real kicker would be putting time limits on welfare (much like unemployment), reducing the payouts based upon having more dependents (discourage breeders), and legalizing all drugs (no more money for illegal drug sales). Talk about ripping the rug out from under ACORN. I guess they would still have election fraud and illegal alien child prostitution to work with...
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Fraggin
Multi-Faceted
Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 8,707
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Seuss]
#11260660 - 10/16/09 05:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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A crack head once gave me his Lone Star Card (texas welfare card) as collateral for the $40 I loaned him.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Seuss]
#11261603 - 10/16/09 07:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
welfare recipients, being inclined to breaking the law, will most likely continue to break the law were welfare taken away.
could you see any reason why they'd stop, other than being incarcerated, if their cash cow had dried up?
Quote:
A real kicker would be putting time limits on welfare (much like unemployment), reducing the payouts based upon having more dependents (discourage breeders),
aledgedly they have a 2 year limit and they've supposedly put limits on
what can be collected per family just to prevent the welfage breeding
but I'm quite certain they have also established some means for people
to get around these controls
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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CollegeGuy
Addict
Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 286
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11261822 - 10/16/09 08:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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When I lived in a pretty bad area of Charleston, I had crack heads with EBT cards (welfare/food stamps) trying to pay for my stuff if I gave them cash.
I remember one time in particular, when I was leaving the grocery store a man was standing there is his kid, that was eating a bag of chips, asking people for money and he would buy there stuff with the ebt card. The kid looked so sad and neglected and the dad looked strung out as hell...
I say drug test them! Welfare isn't meant to be forever it's only supposed to help in hard times and if you can't pass one or two drug tests your fucking restarted and don't diverse any FREE MONEY.
If you don't have money to live and have to get welfare you don't have money for drugs period there are priorities and drugs are a privileged to people smart enough to get away with it.
Rant over...
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All posts from this account do not contain any factual or real events only ones that could happen.
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DreamRoom
Hunter
Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 81
Loc: 60 miles from New Orleans
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: CollegeGuy]
#11263359 - 10/17/09 01:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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If cannabis were taken off the drug test list would this thread exist?
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,575
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: DreamRoom]
#11263698 - 10/17/09 03:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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it might be worth pointing out that according to the reaganite religion practiced by most americans.. you are either a member of the ruling class..or one of their slaves...if you dont fall into either of those categories..then your necessarily guilty of some kind of welfare fraud..usually in conjunction with some other crime...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
Edited by Annapurna1 (10/17/09 11:52 PM)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Annapurna1]
#11267195 - 10/17/09 08:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I never realized just how deluded liberals can be
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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Jaegar
Stranger
Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 895
Last seen: 6 days, 9 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Annapurna1]
#11268639 - 10/18/09 12:57 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't locking people up has any rehabilitation affects on them but would put them into contact with more serious criminals.
And we wonder why organized crime is only growing. Lets build more jails where all the crims can get together and spread their experiences/knowledge.
Fascinating point I read somewhre is how the shadow economy makes up around 20% of the worlds GDP now and is growing.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Jaegar]
#11268952 - 10/18/09 01:51 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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well shit, lets let all the baby rapists go free since it'll just make them criminals to sit in prison
I'm all for the other option, death penalty for those committing welfare fraud
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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Jaegar
Stranger
Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 895
Last seen: 6 days, 9 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11269000 - 10/18/09 02:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Rapists should be castrated in my opinion.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Jaegar]
#11269180 - 10/18/09 02:46 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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That wouldn't help. Rapists feed off of having power over the weak, not being horny.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11276851 - 10/19/09 01:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Still drug tests disproportionately punish marijuana users over users of other drugs that do not show up as easily on drug tests.
if you're on welfare you shouldnt be able to afford marijuana or crack
cocaine, if you can afford drugs on welfare you obviously have plenty of
cash and dont need welfare
I was speaking in general.
However it's important to realize that as is particularly the case with addictive drugs and even common place addictive tings like chocolate or junk food. The need to feed the addiction can trump the need to eat a (nutritious) meal or even house oneself properly. If addicts who aren't willing to quit on their own are expected to look after themselves they will much more likely go to jail than quit.
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
if you have 22" rims on your news SUV you probably dont need welfare
either, unfortunately there's no piss test for fraud
Agreed, but I do not think drug tests would be effective in this respect.
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11277038 - 10/19/09 02:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
well shit, lets let all the baby rapists go free since it'll just make them criminals to sit in prison
I'm all for the other option, death penalty for those committing welfare fraud
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/unreported-world/episode-guide/series-2009/episode-14
As I said drug testing disproportionately effects marijuana users. Cocaine and amphetamines leave your system within a day or two. All that bad father trying to sell his food stamps in the grocery store (another crime) has to do, is quit for two days every time he has a test. A person on welfare who smokes pot must research an elaborate or expensive (store bought) method to beat the test if he's done it within a few weeks.
----
Also if you have a history of making up incorrect statistics (whomever you may be) why should anyone do anything but laugh at you?
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Or, maybe, stop getting high on my fucking dime. What a fucking concept.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11278193 - 10/19/09 05:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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perhaps you misunderstand the dynamics of hard drug addiction.
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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bigredkarlwithak
Mycophiliac
Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 103
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11278327 - 10/19/09 06:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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i think it should be done even though they could still spend it all on booze
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It's not the walls that are moving only your perception.
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ELECTIC
Stranger
Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 19
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11278364 - 10/19/09 06:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I completely agree with drug testing welfare cases, its like this one dude i know who's a drug dealer and is now getting unemployment despite driving an escalade with 24's, besides the fact that the welfare system is nothing more than a means to keep poor people poor and in there place its screwed and needs some real reform, why work when u get free money
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,279
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: ELECTIC]
#11278397 - 10/19/09 06:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm not reading this thread because I just got home from work and I have things to do, but I am 100% in favor of drug testing for welfare recipients.
I want to know that my money isn't being spent on their habit.
Hell, alcohol testing too.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
perhaps you misunderstand the dynamics of hard drug addiction.
What's to misunderstand? I don't want to pay for your dope. Perhaps you don't understand I don't want to pay.
--------------------
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kablamo
the Brave
Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Japan
Last seen: 11 months, 23 days
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11278757 - 10/19/09 07:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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How about this?
Legalize ALL drugs, have public health clinics for drug addicts where they are supplied with clean drugs, counseling, and medical treatment of their addictions. No more accidental overdoses, no more drug dealer profits, no more turf wars over drug trafficking.
Drugs are cheap when they are legal, opiates can be made legitimately for pennies and made with very precise strengths and dosages. Syringes are cheap too.
Bam- you now have a drug addict parent going to the clinic to get his free fix (it would probably cost the taxpayers like 2 or 3 dollars at a time) and spending the welfare money on groceries and rent and stuff like they are supposed to. You also get rid of drug dealer assholes who make no money on paper and defraud the welfare system by undercutting their products.
Can I get my Nobel Peace Prize now?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: kablamo]
#11279098 - 10/19/09 08:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
kablamo said:
How about this?
Legalize ALL drugs, have public health clinics for drug addicts where they are supplied with clean drugs, counseling, and medical treatment of their addictions. No more accidental overdoses, no more drug dealer profits, no more turf wars over drug trafficking.
Drugs are cheap when they are legal, opiates can be made legitimately for pennies and made with very precise strengths and dosages. Syringes are cheap too.
Bam- you now have a drug addict parent going to the clinic to get his free fix (it would probably cost the taxpayers like 2 or 3 dollars at a time) and spending the welfare money on groceries and rent and stuff like they are supposed to. You also get rid of drug dealer assholes who make no money on paper and defraud the welfare system by undercutting their products.
Can I get my Nobel Peace Prize now?
How about this? Legalize all drugs and anybody who gets in trouble can go fuck themselves unto death. Personal responsibility and the dignity of risk.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
As I said drug testing disproportionately effects marijuana users. Cocaine and amphetamines leave your system within a day or two.
what the hell does it matter, drugs are drugs, marijuana costs money that
a welfare recipient shouldnt be spending, it also doesnt stop the workers
from popping in to drug test recipients periodically, one of the many ways
to fight welfare fraud by 'investigating' the recipients
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
|
ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11281112 - 10/20/09 12:38 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
ScavengerType said:
perhaps you misunderstand the dynamics of hard drug addiction.
What's to misunderstand? I don't want to pay for your dope. Perhaps you don't understand I don't want to pay.
No I understand, you are so convinced that an amount of your tax money so disproportionately small compared to the imperialist wars you do support is going to some small percentage of welfare recipients drug habits. That you will make up statistics to the effect of proving your deluded false reality. Rather than realizing that prisons are expensive and require a lot of resources to manage.
According to wikipedia
Quote:
average cost of incarceration per prisoner in the United States was $23,876. That comes out to $65.41 per day.
Now I have a hard time believing that welfare recipients are pulling in figures upwards of $100k annual from the government. If that were the case, I would agree that perhaps there is a problem here.
The reality is that European states that have adopted cheap measures like Kablamo has outlined, have done so with success and with a greater over all social benefit as well as immeasurable cost reductions in places ranging from health to prison & policing. Keep on that old diatribe though I'm sure your jaded old views will be the one thing that this world needs to right itself. A good laugh.
---
Prisoner#1:
Drug dealers and fraudsters are the first people who will be able to pass the drug test, they will likely pass before the crackers/tweekers. They deal with these concerns from others whom they work with in the drug trade and some of the fraudsters will not even be users.
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
|
Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Prisoner#1:
Drug dealers and fraudsters are the first people who will be able to pass the drug test, they will likely pass before the crackers/tweekers. They deal with these concerns from others whom they work with in the drug trade and some of the fraudsters will not even be users.
as I said... investigation, it's obvious that it's not occuring like it should since they admit themselves that they only investigate a percentage of the reported cases
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11282284 - 10/20/09 07:20 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
How about this? Legalize all drugs and anybody who gets in trouble can go fuck themselves unto death. Personal responsibility and the dignity of risk.
My sentiments, exactly. I want the government to protect my right to screw up, not to protect me from screwing up. When I do screw up, I don't expect the government to bail me out.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Seuss]
#11284694 - 10/20/09 04:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
Quote:
How about this? Legalize all drugs and anybody who gets in trouble can go fuck themselves unto death. Personal responsibility and the dignity of risk.
My sentiments, exactly. I want the government to protect my right to screw up, not to protect me from screwing up. When I do screw up, I don't expect the government to bail me out.
Yea because it'd be just fucking terrific if a company with the adverting power of the cigarette industry was suddenly able to mass market meth. Perhaps it'd be better to go with what we can see has worked, rather than what we can see hasn't.
Free market my balls. Go back to Russia!
--
prisoner: Why do you think that drug-testing recipients would be wise if it is unlikely to catch fraudsters?
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
Edited by ScavengerType (10/20/09 04:40 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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|
Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
ScavengerType said:
perhaps you misunderstand the dynamics of hard drug addiction.
What's to misunderstand? I don't want to pay for your dope. Perhaps you don't understand I don't want to pay.
No I understand, you are so convinced that an amount of your tax money so disproportionately small compared to the imperialist wars you do support is going to some small percentage of welfare recipients drug habits. That you will make up statistics to the effect of proving your deluded false reality. Rather than realizing that prisons are expensive and require a lot of resources to manage.
According to wikipedia
Quote:
average cost of incarceration per prisoner in the United States was $23,876. That comes out to $65.41 per day.
Now I have a hard time believing that welfare recipients are pulling in figures upwards of $100k annual from the government. If that were the case, I would agree that perhaps there is a problem here.
The reality is that European states that have adopted cheap measures like Kablamo has outlined, have done so with success and with a greater over all social benefit as well as immeasurable cost reductions in places ranging from health to prison & policing. Keep on that old diatribe though I'm sure your jaded old views will be the one thing that this world needs to right itself. A good laugh.---
I don't want to put them in jail either, so your stupid little distraction is of no merit. Just cut them off from my titty. "Well I was gonna go to work, but then I got high". Fuck that. I'm not interested in buying drugs for losers. Or anybody else for that matter.
--------------------
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11285163 - 10/20/09 05:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Your premise unrealistic. You prefer to use a more expensive and more difficult method to get drug addicts off of welfare and you refuse to take seriously the external costs that will drive up the expense of your "plan". Has it occurred to you that your plan could put a potential breadwinner in prison and leave an entire family still on welfare with no hope of getting off and with the added cost that is more than my annual income to keep this man in prison? Further a refusal to regulate the purity and quality/dosages as well as administer addiction counseling, will keep people addicted and keep them on welfare. Not to mention the fact that drug testing many of these individuals with advanced notice is basically like not testing them at all and spot tests would be logistically near impossible to administer as well as grossly expensive.
So your being a little unrealistic. It is akin to me saying that I'd like an army of unicorns to break US imperialism and enforce the mandates of the UN around the globe as well as ending pollution and cheaply expanding public transit worldwide. It sounds pretty awesome to me right, and I can't say I'd mind saying it once and a while. However I'd be a total asshole if I actually expected it to happen or even thought it was logistically possible.
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
prisoner: Why do you think that drug-testing recipients would be wise if it is unlikely to catch fraudsters?
who says it's unlikely to catch the ones engaged in criminal activity,
welfare fraud being a part of that... it's a simple statement that has
been posted dozens of times in this thread, if you can afford drugs, you
can afford to be cut off from welfare and you can afford to repay what
you've taken in from welfare... tax dollars shouldnt be paying for drug
habits, if you want welfare you should be ready to give up drugs to get it
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Your premise unrealistic. You prefer to use a more expensive and more difficult method to get drug addicts off of welfare and you refuse to take seriously the external costs that will drive up the expense of your "plan".
he hasnt stated he wants them locked up, he's been responding to
everyone else claiming that prison would be the only other option, as it
stands, there's other options including the ones currently in effect,
one major one includes repaying your fraudulently obtained funds, if you
refuse or dont repay, then it's prison and all those fraudsters in
prison are a reduction to the crime rate... fraud is a crime after all
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11286259 - 10/20/09 08:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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same place it is proved that that welfare fraud is significant.
Nobody has made any evidence claiming anything in this thread except me. Arguing is not valid evidence. I've seen rates of crime correlating with lack of assistance for people unable to get work. It is pretty obvious, if there is no work and someone's only means of survival are removed it will lead to an increase in crime and an increase in organized crime. This is more obvious of a fact than that welfare can and is being defrauded. Moreover there is no proof in your statement that
Quote:
if you can afford drugs, you can afford to be cut off from welfare
I've seen people who could not, it is obvious that people who consume drugs like crack/cocaine prefer drugs over food and sometimes rent. If they already are engaged in criminal activity then it is not a short step to being engaged in more of it to make the bills.
Yet somehow you refuse to make those connections and instead say (not to be confused with proving) that "drug tests will prevent fraud" and "marijuana users should be kicked off", WTF mate?
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Moreover there is no proof in your statement that
Quote:
if you can afford drugs, you can afford to be cut off from welfare
I've seen people who could not, it is obvious that people who consume drugs like crack/cocaine prefer drugs over food and sometimes rent. If they already are engaged in criminal activity then it is not a short step to being engaged in more of it to make the bills.
so what you're saying is that if instead of taking care of the expenses
that welfare is meant for that they should keep buying drugs with the
money even though both aspects of that venture are illegal and forbidden
in the regulations regarding welfare, if the program were called
'dopefare' I'd have no issues with it and I'd be applying myself but the
money is supposed to be slated to pay bills and provide for basic needs,
drugs are not a need
those engaged in selling drugs can certainly afford to sell a little
more and live the same luxurious lifestyle with out my tax dollars in
their pocket and those just spending the money on dope are using it
inappropriately and need to find another source, if that source
contributes to the crime rate then they hang themselves when they get caught
BTW, there's a difference in 'could not' and 'will not'
Quote:
Yet somehow you refuse to make those connections and instead say (not to be confused with proving) that "drug tests will prevent fraud" and "marijuana users should be kicked off", WTF mate?
I'm not saying that drug testing will prevent fraud, I'm saying that it
will reduce it but by doing simple random drug testing in the home it's
not difficult to find that a spouse or boyfriend with a job is living in
the home, the recipient is renting a room to someone which is unreported
income or that somehow they're living well beyond their welfare means,
if that's through prostitution or dealing drugs once again, it's
unreported income and it's fraud
as for kicking the marijuana users off welfare, absolutely, illicit
drugs are just that, my money shouldnt be used to pay for that, in the
mean time I know a lady that was prosecuted for foodstamp fraud because
her husband had the title of his car sent to her address, the is a woman
with no car, no job a husband that lives 200 miles away and a kid in
school, the title was sent there because it was a stable address, I
figure if they'll prosecute her, they need to be pressing the issue
against everyone
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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> Yea because it'd be just fucking terrific if a company with the adverting power of the cigarette industry was suddenly able to mass market meth.
I agree completely. Freedom isn't always easy, but it should be protected. And it isn't as if the pharmaceutical industry, which is much larger than the tobacco industry, isn't already already marketing meth.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Your premise unrealistic.
What premise? That I don't feel like buying drugs for you? Anything else you want me to buy for you?Quote:
You prefer to use a more expensive and more difficult method to get drug addicts off of welfare and you refuse to take seriously the external costs that will drive up the expense of your "plan".
I don't think buying drug addicts drugs is going to help them get off the habit, do you? My "plan" is to stop enabling their addiction. Your plan seems to be to supply an army of irresponsible assholes with the means to zombify themselves forever. Nice guy you are.Quote:
Has it occurred to you that your plan could put a potential breadwinner in prison and leave an entire family still on welfare with no hope of getting off and with the added cost that is more than my annual income to keep this man in prison?
Breadwinner? On welfare? And for the last fucking time I DON'T WANT TO PUT ANYBODY IN JAIL FOR DRUGS. ANY DRUGS. I don't want to put them in jail. I want to stop buying their drugs. Quote:
Further a refusal to regulate the purity and quality/dosages as well as administer addiction counseling, will keep people addicted and keep them on welfare.
And buying their drugs will get them off welfare and stop their addiction?Quote:
Not to mention the fact that drug testing many of these individuals with advanced notice is basically like not testing them at all and spot tests would be logistically near impossible to administer as well as grossly expensive.
So says you. Here's how to spot test. Make them pee in a cup any time as a condition to get their check. No pissee no checkee. Not that hard. They aren't thaty expensive and the savings could be mammoth. Welfare agencies are supposed to be monitoring the recipients for fraud anyway. Otherwise why not just give every asshole looking for money whatever they want? What are we paying social service employees for anyway?Quote:
So your being a little unrealistic. It is akin to me saying that I'd like an army of unicorns to break US imperialism and enforce the mandates of the UN around the globe as well as ending pollution and cheaply expanding public transit worldwide. It sounds pretty awesome to me right, and I can't say I'd mind saying it once and a while. However I'd be a total asshole if I actually expected it to happen or even thought it was logistically possible.
Wow. What senseless blather. It isn't that fucking hard to drug test people. Private industry does it all the time, as well as millions of public employees. Cops in NYC and many other classes of workers are subject to random drug tests. It is not akin to riding a unicorn into battle against carbon dioxide.
I have stated it many times and will state it again:
There should be zero drug prohibition for adults. Zero. The net positive budgetary savings, billions upon billions, would dwarf any welfare fraud expenses. I don't care if you fuck yourself but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for it. Your own admission about the paltry state of your annual personal earnings makes it quite clear that you continue to advocate for the spending of other people's money even to the point of enabling them to fuck up their lives. You really are evil on so many levels it wobbles the mind.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11304069 - 10/23/09 03:28 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
I don't think buying drug addicts drugs is going to help them get off the habit, do you?
Yes
You don't have any idea what you are talking about when it comes to drug rehabilitation or social policy because you are not interested in that. All you are interested in is attacking the stereotypical constructs whom you have built up in your mind be them Arab or chronicly unemployed.
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
I'm not saying that drug testing will prevent fraud,
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
while I dont agree with drug testing for drivers licenses, I certainly do
support it for collecting government benefits, go hang out at the welfare
office for an afternoon and when you see the bitch in her huge new SUV
with the 22" spinners you may reconsider
well you obviously fooled me...
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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> You don't have any idea what you are talking about when it comes to drug rehabilitation or social policy because you are not interested in that.
One could say the same thing about you... if it doesn't fit your world view, then you have no desire to consider other people's viewpoint.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Quote:
I don't think buying drug addicts drugs is going to help them get off the habit, do you?
Yes
You don't have any idea what you are talking about when it comes to drug rehabilitation or social policy because you are not interested in that. All you are interested in is attacking the stereotypical constructs whom you have built up in your mind be them Arab or chronically unemployed.
Methadone, LOL. Methadone is a maintenance addiction. Methadone is part of rehab. What part of welfare system is rehab? What part of buying welfare idiots reefer has to do with idiots being in rehab? Did you make a rehab requirement? No you did not, all you did was advocate that welfare money be spent on drugs instead of food, housing and other essentials. Not drugs, not cable TV, not cars.
Chronically unemployed? Stereotype? Do you even know what the word stereotype means? Here's a stereotype for you. People chronically unemployed and on welfare who do drugs (and drink) are not helping themselves to get off welfare. They are just helping themselves to get high and do nothing else.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Seuss]
#11306096 - 10/23/09 03:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> You don't have any idea what you are talking about when it comes to drug rehabilitation or social policy because you are not interested in that.
One could say the same thing about you... if it doesn't fit your world view, then you have no desire to consider other people's viewpoint.
except I've cited facts that directly contradict his claims and am speaking from a body of research on the matter.
to be the same as him I would have to blame the chronic unemployment on lazy capitalists and make up statistics to bolster my claim.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Quote:
Seuss said:
> You don't have any idea what you are talking about when it comes to drug rehabilitation or social policy because you are not interested in that.
One could say the same thing about you... if it doesn't fit your world view, then you have no desire to consider other people's viewpoint.
except I've cited facts that directly contradict his claims and am speaking from a body of research on the matter.
No you haven't. That is a lie, an all too common feature of your posts. You posted a link to something about methadone leading to longer term addiction than heroin. Fucking duh. That has nothing to do with the argument that I don't want to buy shitheads drugs. Not everybody who does drugs is a shithead, by the way. Just the loser assholes who can't maintain a life with them and still choose to use. A man's got to know his limitations. Harry CallahanQuote:
to be the same as him I would have to blame the chronic unemployment on lazy capitalists and make up statistics to bolster my claim.
Did I make any claim that all chronic unemployment is caused by drug use? Another lie from a lying liar.
When I'm giving away charity to failures I insist that it be for what I want it to be for. Food, housing, clothing, the bare necessities. No drugs, alcohol or cigarettes. If they have money for those things they obviously don't need my money for food. That's why the food stamp program can't be used for certain purchases. Like beer and cigarettes. Money is fungible. Any money spent by a welfare recipient on drugs, alcohol and cigarettes came out of my pocket and not for what I meant it for. Which means no more money for them. They embezzled.
Jail and rehab? My position on jail is quite clear. Never under any circumstances. Rehab? Sure, I'll go along if they mean it. If they don't? Good bye.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11307544 - 10/23/09 07:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thank you Zappa... saved me the trouble of typing. We don't always agree on everything, but on this we agree 100%.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,279
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Seuss]
#11307630 - 10/23/09 07:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I agree with him 100% as well.
That has to pretty much cover the political spectrum.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
I'm not saying that drug testing will prevent fraud,
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
while I dont agree with drug testing for drivers licenses, I certainly do
support it for collecting government benefits, go hang out at the welfare
office for an afternoon and when you see the bitch in her huge new SUV
with the 22" spinners you may reconsider
well you obviously fooled me...
you're obviously easily fooled because that that statement didnt say it would prevent fraud
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
|
ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11308115 - 10/23/09 09:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
No you haven't. That is a lie, an all too common feature of your posts. You posted a link to something about methadone leading to longer term addiction than heroin. Fucking duh.
learn to read! it is saying... well wait lets just quote the first line of the article. Literally the first thing you would read had you even looked at it.
Quote:
A Canadian study that found giving heroin to hardcore drug addicts at a supervised clinic leads to a higher rate of recovery than giving them methadone was published Thursday in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine.
I did advocate for a system as Kablamo had mentioned similar to one in the Netherlands which lowered overall social costs of drug users. This data from the article co-relates to the rehabilitation strategies utilized in the Netherlands and to a lesser degree in other European nations.
I never said that it was a good idea to allow welfare recipients to be drug addicts. Just that the costs of kicking them off for addiction would outweigh the costs of leaving them on. Something that I was able to show earlier with statistics in direct opposition to the actual liar who actually lied about the costs of welfare v. prisons. Funny thing is that after he was proved wrong his position was proved wrong by facts he shifted his argument to the notion that kicking someone off welfare is not equivalent to sending them to prison. If I disproved your first claim you lied about, why should I bother with your second.
I know that Americans are not interested in treating social issues that save money in the long run, but the mater at hand is as I said that the method you seem to prefer here is not cost effective. Cost effectiveness being annother thing you Americans do not seem to value.
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
I'm not saying that drug testing will prevent fraud,
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
while I dont agree with drug testing for drivers licenses, I certainly do
support it for collecting government benefits, go hang out at the welfare
office for an afternoon and when you see the bitch in her huge new SUV
with the 22" spinners you may reconsider
well you obviously fooled me...
you're obviously easily fooled because that that statement didnt say it would prevent fraud
You didn't even use a period between the two statements and the end of the spinners statement "you may reconsider" infers an application of the statement to the former. The statement infers that the person is making an income external to the welfare payment and this constitutes fraud (legally).
Also while we're on the comment of your sentence structure didn't and don't require one of these "'". It's right next to the enter button that you usually hit every 6 to 10 words. So why not try to watch for it.
Edited by ScavengerType (10/23/09 09:04 PM)
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11308218 - 10/23/09 09:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
Yes, because putting them in jail would be free, right?
Not free but definitely cheaper. Five of them in jail is much cheaper than a hundred on welfare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Cost_of_incarceration
Quote:
The United States spends an estimated $60 billion each year on corrections.[78] While cost varies from state to state, in 2005, the average cost of incarceration per prisoner in the United States was $23,876. That comes out to $65.41 per day.
in case any liars here need a refresher they said that the cost of welfare recipients is greater than $1308.20 per day. More than an average min wager makes in an entire month.
Though, I'm sure he's amending the psychic toll on his mind and those of wealthy pricks (not inferring that he is one but just inferring that wealthy pricks would be the likely demographic to feel this psychic loss), that weighs so heavily because their tax dollars may be supporting flawed people financially rather than dropping bombs on babies.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
Edited by ScavengerType (10/23/09 09:19 PM)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
I'm not saying that drug testing will prevent fraud,
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
while I dont agree with drug testing for drivers licenses, I certainly do
support it for collecting government benefits, go hang out at the welfare
office for an afternoon and when you see the bitch in her huge new SUV
with the 22" spinners you may reconsider
well you obviously fooled me...
you're obviously easily fooled because that that statement didnt say it would prevent fraud
You didn't even use a period between the two statements and the end of the spinners statement "you may reconsider" infers an application of the statement to the former. The statement infers that the person is making an income external to the welfare payment and this constitutes fraud (legally).
Also while we're on the comment of your sentence structure didn't and don't require one of these "'". It's right next to the enter button that you usually hit every 6 to 10 words. So why not try to watch for it.
and where exactly does it state or imply that it would prevent welfare fraud
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
|
ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
|
Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11308858 - 10/23/09 11:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
and where exactly does it state or imply that it would prevent welfare fraud
Getting welfare while you have an external source of income (farmer, paid under the table or drug dealer) is fraud. For other examples of how you could have said it without using the word "fraud".
edit:
Here's a few sources for those who think I'm full of shit.
Heroin supply clinic 'cuts crime' London
Experts hail heroin clinic trial Germany
Heroin prescription 'cuts costs' Netherlands
But, what do I know? I'm just citing elitist "expert" opinions on actual existing trials in several nations, so maybe your personal opinions are better informed than these articles published by a well known and respected journalistic source from government and scholastically studied and endorsed data.
Or perhaps on the other-hand you could take your misinformed opinions apply some lubricant and shove them up your asses. That way when looking for a source for your argument leaves you trying to find your ass with two hands and a flashlight, an example of what you may be doing wrong just might fall out.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
Edited by ScavengerType (10/24/09 12:10 AM)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Here's a few sources for those who think I'm full of shit.
Heroin supply clinic 'cuts crime' London
Experts hail heroin clinic trial Germany
Heroin prescription 'cuts costs' Netherlands
But, what do I know? I'm just citing elitist "expert" opinions on actual existing trials in several nations
and how exactly is that working out here in the US with the methadone
clinics since the US is not a foreign country?
http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/pavement/in/methadone-clinics-help-and-hurt-the-south-bronx/
Quote:
“The community sees us a double edge sword – we help them but we hurt them in the same time,” said Yolanda Ramos, a clinical coordinator of this 35-year-old substance abuse program, a part of the nonprofit Hunt’s Point Multi-Service Center, Inc. (HPMSC). “There is such a high concentration of chemically dependents, and clinics need to be here to provide treatments. But too many clinics in one place may decrease the economic standing of a neighborhood and increase crime.”
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
|
ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
|
Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11309436 - 10/24/09 02:02 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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That's methadone and not relevant to discussion, I've already cited why. In fact I think it was in every cite that I made other than the prison stat.
Further the person you quoted said that it "may" increase crime. No statistics, just his opinion, which he basses on the fact that 20% of his "clients" come from other areas than South Bronx. So really this project coordinator who may or may not have previously lived in the area saying that it's possible that an increase in users has made crime worse in those areas.
However (later in that same article):
Quote:
“Methadone clinics are in neighborhoods where their services are needed, and South Bronx is such a neighborhood,” said Mario Bodden, who manages the community revitalization programs at the South Bronx Overall Economic Development Corporation (SoBRO). “People don’t want to live next to them but if they are not there, crime and drug use would be a lot worse.”
So realy WTF are you getting at? Are you drunk or high? Or just plane trollin?
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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I guess the concept of "drug clinic moves in, people that could be robbed move out" escapes you
of course there's a reason the crime drops, people that own stuff move elsewhere
ghettos were not always ghettos, many were middle income housing
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11309503 - 10/24/09 02:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Sorry what was that you were saying. You were mumbling your typing over your buthurt nonsense.
So what if people move away from a drug clinic? All of these sources even the one you provided say that they decrease crime in the neighborhood as well as overall? Are you trying to say that the people who moved are getting robbed elsewhere? By that logic there should be a dope clinic on every corner.
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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can you actually develop a linear train of thought?
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
|
ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11309608 - 10/24/09 03:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes in fact I believe I did. If you think I didn't, please point to a flaw in my argument rather than try to derail this with a philosophical debate.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
Edited by ScavengerType (10/24/09 03:02 AM)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Sorry what was that you were saying. You were mumbling your typing over your buthurt nonsense.
So what if people move away from a drug clinic? All of these sources even the one you provided say that they decrease crime in the neighborhood as well as overall? Are you trying to say that the people who moved are getting robbed elsewhere? By that logic there should be a dope clinic on every corner.
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
|
ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11309807 - 10/24/09 04:02 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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You say that people who can be robbed leave, now if they leave the area are they being robbed at this alternate location away from the drug addicts? WTF is your point?
Just because I am joking that a drug clinic on every corner seems to be the solution does not change the fact that there is no reason that the persons who move away from these areas should be subject to robbery elsewhere.
NOW I'LL TYPE THIS ONLY ONCE MORE, CLEARLY AND IN ALL CAPS SO THAT YOU UNDERSTAND. THE DECREASES IN CRIME ARE BECAUSE THE ADDICTS ARE GETTING THEIR DRUGS FOR FREE AND DO NOT NEED TO STEAL OR OTHERWISE ENGAGE IN CRIMINAL ACTIVITY TO GET THEIR FIX. THERE IS NO OTHER LIKELY REASON WHY CRIME RATES DECREASE AROUND DRUG TREATMENT CENTERS.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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> But, what do I know? I'm just citing elitist "expert" opinions
Expert opinions that have nothing to do with the question asked. Wow, news flash, free access to drugs lowers crime rates. Shocker there. Now what does that have to do with welfare fraud?
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Just another spore in the wind.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Seuss]
#11311895 - 10/24/09 02:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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It doesn't, I think you've forgotten that there are two lines of argument in this thread.
However, there is a correlation I just outlined a few posts ago. Get off your lazy asses and fucking read what I posted for a change. I tend to try to keep it pretty short and to the point so it shouldn't be too hard. I mean what? Are you guys fuckin illiterate now or something?
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
Edited by ScavengerType (10/24/09 02:55 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
It doesn't, I think you've forgotten that there are two lines of argument in this thread.
There wasn't until you introduced a meaningless and irrelevant point about rehab, which has zero to do with welfare fraud or misappropriation of welfare monies.Quote:
However, there is a correlation I just outlined a few posts ago. Get off your lazy asses and fucking read what I posted for a change. I tend to try to keep it pretty short and to the point so it shouldn't be too hard. I mean what? Are you guys fuckin illiterate now or something?
No. We just don't accept your pointless and ludicrous derailing of a thread about welfare fraud into some unrelated discussion of the values of jail vs rehab.
Not only would I not force drug offenders to go to jail, I wouldn't force them to go to rehab. What I am not the least bit interested in doing is buying their drugs for them outside of a medical rehab program. And I'm not interested in paying for their rehab if they themselves are not serious about QUITTING. Many people can take drugs and still avoid going on welfare. They buy their own drugs. They would almost certainly be better off not doing drugs but that is neither here nor there. If I don't have to pay I don't care and have nothing to say about it. Their business, not mine. But when I have to start buying food, clothing, housing for their loser asses then they are getting nothing if they don't stop wasting MY money on bullshit that keeps them in thrall to the state.
Can you follow that simple point are you going to go off on a pointless tangent yet again?
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Jaegar
Stranger
Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 895
Last seen: 6 days, 9 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11312767 - 10/24/09 05:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't see much benefit from attacking people who are already down and force them into more desperate actions.
If people are so concerned about their taxes their are allot more legitimate and costly subjects to engage in. White collar crime and the Madoffs for example.
But sure drugies and other weak people make easy defenceless targets, and brownie points for politicans.
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Jaegar
Stranger
Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 895
Last seen: 6 days, 9 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Jaegar]
#11312785 - 10/24/09 05:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote what started this thread "I got a forwarded e-mail from my mother, a right wing conservative christian".
I bet she was sold hook line and sinker on some political agenda persona with this easy bait. It really does appeal to the easy minds.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Jaegar]
#11313072 - 10/24/09 05:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jaegar said:
I don't see much benefit from attacking people who are already down and force them into more desperate actions.
If people are so concerned about their taxes their are allot more legitimate and costly subjects to engage in. White collar crime and the Madoffs for example.
But sure drugies and other weak people make easy defenceless targets, and brownie points for politicans.
So you think I should be compelled by the government to pay for your drugs? I asked before and I'll ask you. Should the government be able to compel druggies who can't take care of themselves to attend rehab? Is there any other item you think I should supply so they can continue to destroy themselves and contribute to their failure? Not all drug users are total losers, you know. But if you are on public assistance then the public gets to decide what you can spend THEIR money on. Hookers and dope are not on that list.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11313151 - 10/24/09 06:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Are you hoping he's too lazy to read my links or the rest of the thread so you can "win" an argument or something?
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Obviously he can read anything he wants. You made several pointless posts that had nothing to do with welfare fraud. Maybe you should start a thread about the merits of rehab over jail for drug users, replete with a cost benefit analysis. I prefer to keep this thread on topic, which is welfare fraud.
I find it touching that you seem to be so intent on saving me money. I appreciate your efforts but I really don't need them. I can determine how I would like my money spent quite well all by myself. I suggest you work on determining how you would like your money spent and not worry so much about mine.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11313288 - 10/24/09 06:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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All my posts are on the topic which is drug testing welfare recipients. Fraud is a correlating side issue that was brought up by prisoner. I have shown great examples of successful and economical drug policy that could be adopted in any nation. Even ones that are too backwards to go metric.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
Edited by ScavengerType (10/24/09 06:28 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Fraud is using welfare checks for anything but necessities. That's why you can't use food stamps to buy beer or cigarettes. Get it yet?
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11313547 - 10/24/09 07:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh sorry, I didn't realize there was a written statement that recipients signed that made them swear they wouldn't spend the money on drugs or since you can't prove via drug test that they bought them, simply consumed them. If I would have known this I would have known this is a fraud rather than just bad manners.
Here's a dictionary. Have fun.
Edited by ScavengerType (10/24/09 07:15 PM)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
You say that people who can be robbed leave, now if they leave the area are they being robbed at this alternate location away from the drug addicts? WTF is your point?.
according to you they're being robbed in the alternate location, have you some evidence to back it up?
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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Here is the question. See if you can stay on topic
Quote:
Shouldn’t one have to pass a drug test to get a welfare check because I have to pass one to earn it for them?
The discussion is about that. Not about the efficacy of jail or rehab or different forms of rehab.
Since you keep wanting to talk about rehab I will ask YET AGAIN.
Should attendance and adherence to a rehab program be a prerequisite to get the bum check? If they have money for dope why do they need my money for food? If they have no money and I give them welfare which they buy dope with aren't I giving them too much money? Wouldn't that money be better spent somewhere else on someone more serious about turning their life around?
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11314232 - 10/24/09 09:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
according to you they're being robbed in the alternate location, have you some evidence to back it up?
That was a joke, I was asking you WTF you were getting at so what if they "have" to move because there is a clinic in their neighborhood? There is less crime there anyway. Put down the mirror and dollar bill and read for two seconds.
---
I have already outlined my feelings on how such a system should work. You did not pay attention.
Summary:
I said that drug tests would not be usefull if they were used as a criteria to kick recipients off because the net costs of actually kicking them off are on average much greater. However it would likely lead to positive outcomes if such a program were to be used to allocate rehabilitation resources as I outlined with the references and the links of such programs success, this includes giving the addicts clean versions of the drugs in a manner outlined in them as well (not all are the same but the specifics are less important).
As for fraud, it should be obvious that drug tests will only expose drug users and only the ones who are dumb enough to get caught. So it will not be effective with that respect.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
I said that drug tests would not be usefull if they were used as a criteria to kick recipients off because the net costs of actually kicking them off are on average much greater.
that's like saying it would cost me more to boot someone out of a rental
property I could be making money on as opposed to letting a junkie live
there for free which would cost me less...
if you receive $800 on welfare each month and drug tests cost $25, well
you pissing dirty on one test equates to a net savings of $775 in the
first month alone...
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
|
ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11318383 - 10/25/09 03:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes if you only work in the welfare department and are not concerned with government expenses as a whole that would be correct. However if policing and health concerns are a component of the over all expense, or hell if the direct costs of all the problems kicking desperate people off welfare were factored in. It is a net loss.
I'm learning python, if after reading this you still claim not to understand, go fuck yourself.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,243
Last seen: 5 hours, 9 minutes
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How desperate can they be if they have money for drugs?
I ask again:
Will you compel them to enter rehab? If they don't go to rehab they aren't trying are they. Just happy little druggie bums on the dole.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: zappaisgod]
#11319128 - 10/25/09 05:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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so?
What does it mater?
It's cheaper to have them on the dole than causing problems...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11318514
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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it's cheaper to have them in a grave, your convoluted logic doesnt hold
water, boot them from government aid and the health and wellbeing of these
people is their own responsibility, if they need medical attention it's
far cheaper for them to visit the health department or one of the many
charity hospitals, some are publicly funded but lots of private funding is
there as well just as well as the private funding of the soup kitchens
and when they further add to the crime rate, they can be incarcerated,
after a few more long term stays they can get food, clothing, shelter
and medical care on the state for life...
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
|
ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11320839 - 10/25/09 10:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Are you suggesting killing welfare recipients who test positive for drugs or killing criminals?
Nobody has mentioned it exclusively but as a subtext it is obvious to me what your problem with these approaches is. Reminds me of a joke I read the other day.
Quote:
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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tha_doctor
student of the Plant Teachers
Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 1,346
Loc: Melbourne
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Prisoner#1]
#11322511 - 10/26/09 04:45 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Drug tests are not good. This is because cannabis can be detected in urine almost a month after the last use. Weras cocain, heroin, amphetamies and other hard drugs can be detectable in urine only for 3 or so days after the last use.
If drug tests were everywere, people who want to use cannabis for it's many therapuric benefits won't be able to (in places where it's illegal) because it can be detected for many weeks after last use. This would also make teenagers more inclined to try hard drugs because they could easily get away with it.
In the perfect world, cannabis would be legal and people wouldn't have this problem. But that will take many years of campagning, and governments will waste many more billions of taxpayer money on the "War on Drugs" to try to stop the inevidable
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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> Are you suggesting killing welfare recipients who test positive for drugs or killing criminals?
No, you are. You keep talking about cheaper rather than better. "It's cheaper to have them on the dole than causing problems..." Taken to the extreme, killing welfare recipients is the cheapest solution.
It is obvious that you are arguing that welfare recipients should be allowed to waste the tax money they receive on anything they desire, illegal drugs included, rather than being required to spend the tax money they receive on basic necessities such as food and shelter. Every time somebody points this out, you change the subject... crime rates, rehab, welfare-ocide, etc.
Getting to the point, why should welfare recipients be allowed to spend tax payer money on illegal drugs, prostitutes, gambling fueled trips to vegas, etc?
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 23 hours, 49 minutes
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Seuss]
#11323045 - 10/26/09 10:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Getting to the point, why should welfare recipients be allowed to spend tax payer money on illegal drugs, prostitutes, gambling fueled trips to vegas, etc?
From the opinions Scavenger has expressed in his past posts, I am pretty sure he opposes the corporations receiving TARP funds paying their CEOs and top sales people what they are currently paying them. I'll go out on a limb and guess that he approves of Obama's Pay Czar slashing these compensation packages drastically. So here's a question for him -
If companies receiving government money are to be prevented from spending some of it on the essential elements of their business they believe it is best spent on (for example, compensating their top people sufficiently to keep them from taking employment at a competitor), why should welfare recipients receiving government money be allowed to spend some of it on non-essentials such as recreational drugs?
Phred
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Phred]
#11325438 - 10/26/09 05:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Seuss, you are definitely misrepresenting what I said. Dare I say trolling. I also suspect that you haven't read one of those links because of your accusations.
Phred:
I have not seen any data concluding that these CEOs will save the government and/or create revenue that would otherwise not be there on the order of the amount of money that is being taken in bonuses. Nor will there be a clear statistically linked likelihood of a great public expense if these CEOs are not given their bonuses. Without significant data I see no reason why the issue should not be controversial, but I am not closed to information on the matter. However I will be particularly wary of biased and/or anecdotal information on the subject, as I was with the welfare topic.
Unlike some of the Randites here I do not like to take data sets from one instance (particularly anecdotal) and apply them to another where they may not fit. Nor do I apply one goal that I say has merit universally over other goals or expenses.
Further I find it odd that people who claim to support fiscally conservative and oppose the drug war are not more interested in this approach which shows to be effective and cost effective
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
Edited by ScavengerType (10/26/09 05:57 PM)
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 23 hours, 49 minutes
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Quote:
I have not seen any data concluding that these CEOs will save the government and/or create revenue that would otherwise not be there on the order of the amount of money that is being taken in bonuses. Nor will there be a clear statistically linked likelihood of a great public expense if these CEOs are not given their bonuses. Without significant data I see no reason why the issue should not be controversial, but I am not closed to information on the matter. However I will be particularly wary of biased and/or anecdotal information on the subject, as I was with the welfare topic.
Not real big on clarity of expression, are you? I scanned that rat's nest of mangled syntax a few times without finding an answer to my question. Let me ask it again -
Do you approve of Obama's pay czar ordering the companies which have taken TARP funds to slash the compensation of their employees? Yes or no? You can provide an explanation supporting your yes or your no, if you like, but first give us a yes or a no.
If your answer is yes, then please explain to us why the government should not similarly prohibit welfare recipients from spending government funds (welfare payments) on drugs.
Phred
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Phred]
#11326746 - 10/26/09 08:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I haven't read much about it because it doesn't effect me and I'm not particularly worried about it. You have to admit it's not something that is cross-applicable to other nations and/or is likely to happen in such a fashion again. I stated my feelings with regard to why the situations are not alike, not weather or not I supported it or not, because I knew the former and not the latter.
Either way, this is beginning to sound like a convoluted attempt to draw the topic away from welfare and drugs to Obama's policy. I have already told you that I am not a dem or even a liberal and do not unconditionally support Obama's policies. So what lead you to believe that following from this thread I would support this issue?
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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kablamo
the Brave
Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Japan
Last seen: 11 months, 23 days
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How about this?
The more power you give the government for controlling the people, the less power the people have as a whole.
Welfare recipients are a convenient scapegoat, and I'm sure the fed has a huge boner at the idea of force piss testing them, because if you can say
"hey, we are already piss testing welfare recipients"
it's a lot easier to say "we should also test drivers to get a license"
or "we should drug test all University students upon admission"
or "we should give police the right to randomly drug test people walking the streets"
or "we should require all doctors to administer drug tests for all patients on every visit"
So you don't want to pay for other peoples drugs? Cry me a fucking river. Don't pay your fucking taxes then. How about all the cocaine and hooker binges that government officials make sure nobody finds out about? Who do you think pays for those?
You know what I don't like? I don't like paying for bombs with my tax money that murder brown children in their sleep. I can't believe people around here.
Your taxes pay for all of the stupid anti drug advertisements that waste millions and don't fucking work on anybody. Your taxes pay for private security contractors to go to brown countries and rape and pillage and wreak havoc while not being required to follow the Geneva conventions because they aren't an actual military.
Not to mention, your taxes pay for the government involvement in the South American cocaine trade.
The bottom line is this: Don't give any more power to the government, ever under any circumstances, especially classist bullshit like this.
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Yrat
Hello
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,030
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: kablamo]
#11329738 - 10/27/09 07:13 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,279
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: kablamo]
#11329778 - 10/27/09 07:37 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
kablamo said:
How about this?
The more power you give the government for controlling the people, the less power the people have as a whole.
Welfare recipients are a convenient scapegoat, and I'm sure the fed has a huge boner at the idea of force piss testing them, because if you can say
"hey, we are already piss testing welfare recipients"
it's a lot easier to say "we should also test drivers to get a license"
or "we should drug test all University students upon admission"
or "we should give police the right to randomly drug test people walking the streets"
or "we should require all doctors to administer drug tests for all patients on every visit"
So you don't want to pay for other peoples drugs? Cry me a fucking river. Don't pay your fucking taxes then. How about all the cocaine and hooker binges that government officials make sure nobody finds out about? Who do you think pays for those?
You know what I don't like? I don't like paying for bombs with my tax money that murder brown children in their sleep. I can't believe people around here.
Your taxes pay for all of the stupid anti drug advertisements that waste millions and don't fucking work on anybody. Your taxes pay for private security contractors to go to brown countries and rape and pillage and wreak havoc while not being required to follow the Geneva conventions because they aren't an actual military.
Not to mention, your taxes pay for the government involvement in the South American cocaine trade.
The bottom line is this: Don't give any more power to the government, ever under any circumstances, especially classist bullshit like this.
Okay, nice diatribe.
But I still don't want to pay for drugs for people on welfare.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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did you actually read the thread?
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,279
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 4 days, 1 hour
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Yes, the whole thing.
I even posted it in several days ago.
Have you read it?
Why are you asking?
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,341
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Seuss, you are definitely misrepresenting what I said. Dare I say trolling.
you mean to say he's done in this thread the exact same thing you've done?
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 2 days
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Seuss, you are definitely misrepresenting what I said. Dare I say trolling. I also suspect that you haven't read one of those links because of your accusations.
And yet again, you managed to avoid answering the question that is directly on topic... Dare I say ... 
Quote:
Getting to the point, why should welfare recipients be allowed to spend tax payer money on illegal drugs, prostitutes, gambling fueled trips to vegas, etc?
Well?
Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Either way, this is beginning to sound like a convoluted attempt to draw the topic away from welfare and drugs to Obama's policy.
Nope, he is trying to illustrate the double faced nature of your apparent position... supporting restrictions on companies that take tax money while not supporting restrictions on people that tax tax money. In other words, corporate waste of tax money is bad, but personal waste of tax money is fine.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Quote:
ScavengerType said:
did you actually read the thread?
Look at the thread title, Einstein. You don't make a thread about whatever you want it to be just by changing the topic.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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mad town why would you want to pay more taxes to force people on welfare to live in this precarious and desperate drug war?
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
Edited by ScavengerType (10/27/09 03:06 PM)
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 3 days, 21 hours
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Re: Drug testing welfare recipients [Re: Seuss]
#11331563 - 10/27/09 03:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
Getting to the point, why should welfare recipients be allowed to spend tax payer money on illegal drugs, prostitutes, gambling fueled trips to vegas, etc?
They have to pay their rent or whatever so if any of them do this to incredible expense they will likely loose their home address and their welfare.
I agree about the illegal drugs part and that's why I suggested that the government provide them for free in an environment where it can push rehab services on these people.
Quote:
Quote:
ScavengerType said:
Either way, this is beginning to sound like a convoluted attempt to draw the topic away from welfare and drugs to Obama's policy.
Nope, he is trying to illustrate the double faced nature of your apparent position... supporting restrictions on companies that take tax money while not supporting restrictions on people that tax tax money. In other words, corporate waste of tax money is bad, but personal waste of tax money is fine.
No he's trying to make a strawman argument by tying it into an entirely unrelated fiscal matter that he presumes I have an opinion about. I've made clear why they are not related.
It is funny that some of you accuse me of drawing this off topic by suggesting rehabilitation and drug services but don't make the same association when you draw some other unrelated example of government spending to fit your argument.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club
Edited by ScavengerType (10/27/09 03:05 PM)
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