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 houdinihar
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 Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems 
#11099166 - 09/21/09 10:39 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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hello everyone. i'm still hanging in there with the edible tropical mushrooms.
i need some help from you all, especially anyone who has successfully grown these guys to fruit and harvest.
i am working on the Volvariella volvacea species, aka Paddy straw mushroom.
i've read everything i can get my hands on about this tropical, including chang, quimio, stamets, and various sundry authors from all parts of the globe. real growing details seem to be missing in most cases. at the moment i am in the process of obtaining quimio's classic updated work on growing tropical mushrooms as noted in another post.
let me tell you what i've down, and what i am doing today.
have done---
i have home made compost that is about 6 weeks old now and it is made of straw, coffee grounds, a little gypsum ,H2O, and various kitchen vegetable pieces-- all this has been composted well with good texture. next i chose some compost and brought it up to field capacity with H2O, then pasteurized at 150 degrees F for 90 minutes. next after cooling, i mixed my commercially obtained spawn into the compost at about 15% by volume---for quick colonization, then placed into clean new plastic tubs 12 by 12 by 3". i then covered with aluminum foil and poked holes in the top as shown on RR's videos and put into incubation mode at a room temp of about 78-80 F.
after only 2 days i have great jump off of the mycelium onto the compost, but i also have boukou cobweb mold. i read everything i could find on cobweb mold again, since i usually don't have any problems with it. the problem is, like with most newly spawned substrate high CO2 levels and high humidity are the norm. according to what i've read about cobweb mold, 122 degrees F for 30 minutes is enough to kill their spores--my pastuerization process exceeds that. another reality is that cobweb mold likes high humidity and no air movement which is typical for newly spawned substrates.
finally questions---so how can i achieve high CO2 with high humidity and air movement to try to keep this mold inactive? this seems so counterintuitive based on the primitve way in which many people in certain countries grow V. volvacea out in the open fields.
doing today---
now something that did not escape my attention in stamets book "growing gourmet and medicinal mushrooms" is that some japanese growers are using sterililzed substrates for some tropicals, so i am in the process of sterilizing some of my compost in mycobags and will try in a completely sterile envorinment to grow these babies.
future work---
another thing i thought of just for grins is to try changing the H2O capacity of the compost to see if lowering the water content can decrease the potential for cobweb mold, yet still allow good jump off, and to try changing the content formula by adding some sawdust/chips to my mix. i'll try anything to get success here. also decreasing the actual spawn percent volume will be altered to help minimize excessive thermogenesis.
any other thoughts on the matter, especially from those who have actual experience here would be greatly appreciated. learning is often trial and error, but it saves tons of time if you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
thanks for this great site and all the friends i have made here. let's keep the ball rolling. i need your insights. my 2 cents worth will be shared as i go along.
houdinihar
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solumvita
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: houdinihar]
#11101213 - 09/21/09 05:49 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Most paddy straw mushrooms are grown on uncomposted material, this aids with creating the high temperatures that the mushrooms need to fruit. Try a simple lime water (about 2%) soak with fresh uncomposted material, most eastern growers use rice straw, not sure what you can get but i imagine still green hay/straw would work.
Layer the material about 10cm thick, and sandwich the spawn in between the layers, taper the mound towards the top a bit like a pyramid.
Once you have created the mound cover it with plastic and leave it to get hot, real hot  . Generally the inside of the mound should get to be about 50 deg C and the edges closer to 40 deg C. This is the reason for layering the spawn and also for keeping closer to the edges of your layer, where it is slightly cooler.
Spawn layer
Paddy straw mushrooms
Basic stack
ciao
Edited by solumvita (09/21/09 05:57 PM)
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bioBot
Registered: 05/02/09
Posts: 254
Last seen: 20 days, 21 hours
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: houdinihar]
#11101266 - 09/21/09 06:02 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think that you will succeed with the filter
patch bags, but I also think that with a few
modifications your original method could prove
to be worthwhile.
My understanding is that you mixed together your
spawn with compost and then placed in tubs,
covering with the foil.
What you may want to try is first filling the
tubs with compost, then adding a layer of spawn
to the surface without mixing. Rather than
immediately puncture holes in them, let them rest
for 2-4 days to get a head on invaders.
Mycelium will normally do better in layers.
Another possible modification would be to first
add a bit of spawn the floor level of the tubs
before adding the layer of compost and top level
of spawn.
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houdinihar
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Registered: 09/12/08
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: bioBot]
#11101715 - 09/21/09 07:22 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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thanks, both solumvita (esp the nice pics, and i thank you publicly for the nice culture sent to me) and bioBot. as mentioned earlier i am in the midst of further trials. i have plenty of water hyacinth available. i read that some growers use green banana leaves, too. maybe the partially composted is better for the V. volvacea than fully composted material for some reason. lots to learn about this species.
keep the ideas coming folks. there's work to do.
houdinihar
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 Imorph
journeyman
Registered: 11/10/01
Posts: 146
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: houdinihar]
#11103129 - 09/21/09 11:15 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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hello houdinihar,
i hope that you're successful figuring out how to get these Heat Lovers to fruit. i am of
course after the same successful end. I couldn't really add anything earlier because i am
likewise learning on the job and am waiting on the experienced to chime in.
This is also very interesting since i have been trying to get a same specie LC (other thread)
going and get a small grow before these thermophiles get chilled.
It very good to get input from some ppl who have had some handon experiences with this
species. From my reading already I think its very interesting in that we have some growers who
do go thru the 2 to 7 day fermentation/light composting on straw and cotton hulls improving
its' digestibility ...to other success's who are focused on spawn seeding active hi temp
composting heaps. There are 2 somewhat diff ways of growing and fruiting V.volvacea....
lightly partially composted straw and/or hulls or layering uncomposted straw substrate with
spawn to help generate the composting temps producing fruiting bodies. anymore good insights
would be appreciated. out all contams,Imorph
ps- houdinihar ...when i saw your name i thought of the great Erich Weiss and remembered that
it's only a month and a few days before Halloween :o
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houdinihar
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: Imorph]
#11103229 - 09/21/09 11:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
when i saw your name i thought of the great Erich Weiss
very interesting individual, Harry Handcuff Houdini. thanks Imorph.
yeah, we'll try to keep this rolling for awhile. maybe it will be as successful as the cordyceps thread. i liked that, too, and it was worthwhile to pry open the secrets of that little dude. big commercial don't necessarily want you to know everything and how they do it. glad we have this open forum.
houdinihar
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solumvita
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: houdinihar]
#11103525 - 09/22/09 12:14 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks.
I am sure you will do very well with the banana leaves houdi 
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One of these days all the answers will be revealed until then we learn from each other!
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houdinihar
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: solumvita]
#11113559 - 09/23/09 06:03 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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update
here is the booklet i am getting from an interlibrary loan:
Technical Guidelines for Mushroom Growing in the Tropics (FAO Plant Production and Protection Papers) (Paperback)
by T.H. Quimio (Author), S-.T. Chang (Author), D.J. Royse
Paperback: 155 pages
Publisher: Food & Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) (December 31, 1991)
ISBN-10: 925103026X
ISBN-13: 978-9251030264
FAO will sell this for $30.00 plus dollars USD. way better to peruse through our free library lending system.
have already made more sterilized compost in mycobags today and will inoculate more substrate with my V. volvacea spawn. this time i used compost, gypsum, spent coffee grounds, sawdust and vermiculite. i have read in several places that sawdust and supplements like wheat bran can be added to the mix.
also read that phase 2 composting will cook (pasteurize) the compost in sealed rooms at 140 degrees F for 48 hours. why do we only pasteurize for 1 hour? what is the difference here? big difference between 48 hours and 1 hour, you know what i mean vern?
come on people let's rev.
houdinihar
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mycochef
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Registered: 05/25/09
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: houdinihar]
#11113798 - 09/23/09 06:39 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Pasteurization is a time/temperature dependent ever bought an egg in the shell that has been pasteurized? Eggs cook at 140 degrees but if you bring them to 200+ degrees for a fraction of a second it will have the same effect as something that has been pasteurized at 140 degrees for 15 minutes.
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bioBot
Registered: 05/02/09
Posts: 254
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: houdinihar]
#11113897 - 09/23/09 06:53 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm not totally sure, but bulk pasturizing in a
room environment with a large pile of whatever
will generate an endothermic reaction. At 140F
ambient temp, the inside of the pile will reach
much higher - I'm not expert on this so can't
give a definite figure.
edit: endothermic is probably not the right term
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Edited by bioBot (09/23/09 07:38 PM)
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Jef
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Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 739
Loc: near Duncan, BC
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: houdinihar]
#11114902 - 09/23/09 09:07 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
houdinihar said:
also read that phase 2 composting will cook (pasteurize) the compost in sealed rooms at 140 degrees F for 48 hours. why do we only pasteurize for 1 hour? what is the difference here? big difference between 48 hours and 1 hour, you know what i mean vern?
houdinihar
IT's heat plus time that kills. A lower temperature for a longer time can be almost equivalent to higher temperatures for longer. Superpasteurization they do for up to 24 hours at a time.
Ideally, microbes generate the heat, rather than us using electricity or fossil fuels.
The rooms that are used for artificial pasteurization are usually very well insulated so that once they are up to temperature, very little addition of heat will keep them hot for long periods.
Compare that to our standard water baths in metal drums that are open on top and not insulated on any side.
For us to easily simulate their procedures on our very small scale is quite wasteful of energy and therefore expensive.
It could probably be done better, but the equipment and effort required are too heroic for most of us.
Too bad really.
Good growing,
Jeff
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I am my own lab rat.
“Young lady!” cried Mr. Grout, very much appalled. “It ill becomes a young person of no consequence, such as yourself, to go about slandering great people in all the dignity of their property!”
- Mrs. Mabb, The Ladies of Grace Adieu, by Susanna Clarke
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houdinihar
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: Jef]
#11115649 - 09/23/09 11:29 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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experiments continue. good to talk though.
absolutely good tunes in the 'phones tonight as i listen to Propellerheads Decksandrumsandrockandroll.
i could see a large amounts, i mean literally tons, of compost cooking in those big rooms like Jef said. once they warmed up they could maintain their own internal temps for some time after the heat was turned off. maybe that is why it takes 2 days to pasteurize them, i don't know. just cooking a small batch of anything on the stove in a water bath, takes a good amount of time for the core to heat up to the pasteurization temp without overshooting the mark too much.
i imagine the only way to heat a large room efficiently would be to separate the piles of compost so the heated air could circulate between them, like maybe on a rack system or something.
houdinihar
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wbastz
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: houdinihar]
#11118039 - 09/24/09 10:57 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hi Houdinihar,
I think what they are doing during these two days is the conditioning of the compost, when the free ammonia and other gases are eliminated or converted to nutrients and beneficial actinomycets will grow during the Phase II of composting . The presence of actinomycets is beneficial for the production of mushrooms, resulting in a more selective substrate for mushroom growth . I'm not sure about this process regarding the temperatures involved , because I'm writing this by memory only. This information should be confirmed.
Cheers,
Wilson
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houdinihar
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: wbastz]
#11132520 - 09/26/09 06:21 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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bad problems. first 3 mycobags are showing signs of green mold around the spawn seeds. i will resteriize 3 other compost bags i have. these were cooked at 250 degrees, 15 psi for 2 hours. will also cooked some of the enriched sawdust bags as mentioned by stamets on monday.
oddly enough, some of the original tubs are surviving outside from the cobweb mold that had been sprayed with 3% peroxide.
houdinihar
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houdinihar
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: houdinihar]
#11155977 - 09/30/09 11:09 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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1. got the sawdust bags cooked
2. made a new batch of 40 agar plates, MEA with a dash of dextrose added. will start plating out more V. volvacea plus other species i'm working on.
3. read more thoroughly stamets book, the mushroom cultivator, page 77-107 has a great section on composting and explains in detail more info about phase 1 and phase 2 composting. phase 2 is done in a large insulated room with a controlled environment. the temps produced are exothermic because of breakdown of the food materials by bacteria and some fungal species. as a rule it is not something we can easily do at home (defintely not a cheap set-up). this is a pasteurization and conditioning time to kill pest organisms, to get rid of excess ammmonia and to grow beneficial microbes/fungal elements to aid in the mushroom mycelial growth and to resist competitor molds. this phase 2 compost is not re-pasteurized like we do it in a water bath. the pasteuriztion take splace in situ in the insulated room once only. the growers use the phase 2 directly in their substrate beds/containers and inoculate once temps reach 80 degerees F. the whole phase 2 can take 8-10 days or so.
dig, dig, dig----always new things to learn and/or find like little Easter eggs.
houdinihar
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bioBot
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: houdinihar]
#11157692 - 09/30/09 04:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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A dedicated room would indeed be costly.
Instead, what would happen if phase-2 was
done inside large bags, like the kind used
for growing bulk oyster?
One might prepare like 3-4 six ft long bags
of Phase-1 composted material for incubation
in a small closet with space heater.
???
btw - I've never prepared more than a few plates
at once... by what method do you store such a large
amount for eventual use?
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houdinihar
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: bioBot]
#11160152 - 09/30/09 10:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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bioBot,
Quote:
Instead, what would happen if phase-2 was
done inside large bags, like the kind used
for growing bulk oyster?
phase 2 depends on freely circulating air/oxygen. you don't want to create an anerobic environment and disturb the biomass heater (microbes). putting everything in bags really wouldn't do for what phase 2 is designed for.
great thoughts though, bioBot. keep up the good work.
houdinihar
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Herbal_Elixer
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: houdinihar]
#11162946 - 10/01/09 12:19 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Glad to see this in depth thought process.. I love paddy straws, and would love to grow them myself
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solumvita
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: houdinihar]
#11163599 - 10/01/09 02:27 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
houdinihar said:
bioBot,
Quote:
Instead, what would happen if phase-2 was
done inside large bags, like the kind used
for growing bulk oyster?
phase 2 depends on freely circulating air/oxygen. you don't want to create an anerobic environment and disturb the biomass heater (microbes).
houdinihar
I think in theory a large bag would work provided that you circulate air. Some commercial growers place the phase 2 on a mat which allows air from underneath to be forced through to ensure even air circulation through the room. Perhaps a hessian or loose weave bag with air pipes underneath it.
Beware of the smell though, this is not a project to attempt in your house! The smell can get pretty bad.
Ciao
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One of these days all the answers will be revealed until then we learn from each other!
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houdinihar
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Re: Paddy Straw Mushroom and Compost Questions/Problems [Re: solumvita]
#11164342 - 10/01/09 04:56 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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maybe if the bags were semipermeable, like tyvek, the air circulation idea might work. another reason for the enclosed room is to keep temps moderately high during phase 2. the tyvek idea might be useful if the temps can be controlled in the ranges they need to be during the 8-10 days needed to complete phase 2.
stamets says:Quote:
1st part of phase 2 is the Pasteurization. Air and compost temps held at 135-140 degrees F for 2-6 hours [can use long probe thermometers for that]...Do not let temps get above 140 degrees F.
Part 2 -Phase 2, Conditioning--Compost held at 118-130, once pasteurization is complete. Then gradually lower the temp over 24 hours to 122 degrees F at the center of the compost. Compost should not be deeper than 8 inches. Drop the core temp down in steps 2 degrees F per day until all traces of ammonia are gone.
most likely someone can come up with an idea for temp control for a homemade phase 2. i know in the hydro industry there are good timers available for greenhouse environments with some that have remote probes for temp and co2 monitoring, or onboard monitors. a refrigerator no longer in use could become a small phase 2 maybe for the serious home grower of these tropicals. they are well-insulated and can be warmed as easily as cooled.
everyone has such good ideas here. let's keep up the good work.
back to my dilemma. i can't believe my last 3 compost mycobags have some kind of green mold in them. they have never even been opened since i sterilized them. pisses me off really.
i sterilized those varmints for 2 hours last time. this time i am going for a full 3 hours. i will kill all life forms in close proximity to those bags.
i don't have that problem with the sawdust of course, only the compost. questions...
having to make up more spawn on my own now, too. everything takes time. fortunately my temps are still in the mid- 90's here.
houdinihar
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