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 Wiccan_Seeker
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 OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... 
#11033395 - 09/10/09 12:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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The New Inflation Threat
By Paul Nathan Printer Friendly Version Bookmark and Share
Aug 31 2009 11:00AM
www.kitco.com
Late on a Friday in August, when most people around the world were not looking, the international monetary system, in an unprecedented move, evolved. We were notified by the IMF of the following:
Aug. 28 (Bloomberg) -- The International Monetary Fund said it today pumped about $250 billion into foreign-exchange reserves worldwide, acting on an April call from leaders of the Group of 20 nations to boost global liquidity.
Countries will be able to convert the money, to come from so-called Special Drawing Rights, into hard currencies through “voluntary trading arrangements” with other members, the IMF said on its Web site today. The SDRs are the institution’s unit of account based on a basket of currencies.
The allocation, approved by the IMF’s board of governors earlier this month, will not increase the fund’s pool of money available for lending, the IMF said. “It will, however, provide members with an additional method to obtain hard currencies.”
Another smaller reserves allocation of about $33 billion will take place Sept. 9 and will be limited to members that joined the lender after 1981, such as countries from the former Soviet bloc, the IMF said.
About $110 billion of the total allocation will go to emerging-market and developing countries and $20 billion to low- income nations.
“A number of members with sufficiently strong external positions” have already said they are ready to set up or expand existing arrangements enabling the sale or purchase of SDR's, the IMF said. The lender typically acts as a broker and arranges transactions between parties at no cost. (End News Release)
What this means is that for the first time in history we have a world central bank capable of creating money out of thin air. No longer does the IMF need to borrow money with a vote of all members plus the consent of the US congress. It can simply create whatever amount of money it needs through the creation of SDRs. Not for itself, mind you, but for the world. The SDR has been around since 1967, but never as a convertible asset. That changed Friday, August 28th, 2009. The SDR has quietly mutated.
The decision was made August 7th, in an IMF vote. According to the IMF "global reserves will increase from just USD33bn to USD283bn or about 4% of global reserves excluding gold. In addition, the IMF will start issuing SDR notes later this year (China, Brazil and Russia will be the main buyers). These SDR notes can be counted as part of currency reserves and hence SDR assets could reach 5% of total reserve assets later in 2009 and possibly surpass GBP, JPY and CHF in importance as reserve assets." This is a foot in the door.
The prospect of this happening was covered in my article, The Making Of An International Monetary Crisis:
"The spectacle of billions of inconvertible dollars frozen in the vaults of central banks has brought on cries of condemnation over the dollar’s credibility as a reserve currency. The Policy Maker’s theory of a stable yet artificially ever-expanding reserve currency has failed.
The "solution" to the problem (if the Policy Maker remains consistent) will be to evolve the international monetary system from a system in which an ever-expanding reserve currency provided the world with credit and liquidity, to a system in which an ever-expanding reserve "asset" will fill that role. Like the dollar, this reserve "asset" will amount to circulating debt, i.e. something owed rather than something owned. It will be a non-market instrument, deriving its acceptability from government cooperation and decree, "immune from the laws of the free market and outside the reach of greedy speculators."
Where will this "asset" come from? Under the Bretton Woods system, dollar reserves were furnished by the U.S. central bank. Both the bank and the "asset" failed to provide sufficient stability. The next step is to create a world bank (a larger bank of last resort) controlled by an international organization (the IMF) with the power to create a new "asset," independent of any single government’s monetary policy.
As a supplement to gold and like the dollar before it, this "asset" should be a credit instrument. Unlike the dollar, it would have the backing of an entire world of central banks. The "asset" should be ever-expanding and should provide both liquidity and stability." That asset is the SDR and the potential became a reality this weekend. (For a further discussion of creating international reserves and the SDR, see my articles The Making Of An International Monetary Crisis and Bretton Woods 1944-1971, under "Other articles" by Paul Nathan).
As of this weekend, the world is 250 billion dollars "richer". No products were produced. No taxes were raised. Not even one cent was borrowed. The IMF simply created a bookkeeping entry on behalf of those countries it felt worthy of receiving additional reserves. The reserves, SDRs, are a claim to "hard currency". The hard currency will be provided by those with "sufficiently strong external positions”, in other words, surplus nations.
There is no reason for surplus nations to part with hard currency, save two, that I can think of: Altruism or Power. And in my opinion they are having a go at the latter. My read on this is that the surplus nations have just made an end run around the United States and the US Congress who have veto power over IMF decisions. Surplus nations can now provide “voluntary trading arrangements” with non-surplus (importing) nations with the IMF as "broker". This sounds like a mechanism for the surplus nations to provide buying power to importing nations at the expense of us all.
The ability to inflate has now been augmented. It has transcended national boundaries from national central banks to a world central bank. This "new" bank now has the power to create money. Inflation is no longer limited to one currency but will affect all paper currencies in the world. We now have the prospect of a synchronized international inflation. It's not enough that citizens throughout the world had to keep a keen eye on their nations central bank, now we all need to keep an eye on the IMF.
The "IMF's Board Of Governors", a group never elected to office, unknown to most, and accountable to no one, has now gained the power to create new claims on production without legal limits or oversight from any regulatory body. All it need do is vote for more SDRs.
Given the "announcement in the dead of night" tactics just employed, I suggest we all sharpen our eyesight. This development doesn't change the inflation outlook for the next month or even for the next year. But make no mistake -- the "powers that be" just took the fiat system and the inflation threat to a new level.
Paul Nathan
August 31, 2009
Source
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 zorbman
Be Prepared
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 Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#11033570 - 09/10/09 01:24 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
As of this weekend, the world is 250 billion dollars "richer".
Yippee!!!!!!! 
If the economic crisis was the result of a lack of money why not just give every person their very own printing press?
That way when money is needed you just go into your office and print whatever money you need!! 
Problem solved.
Right?
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Why does changing the party in power never change policy? Could it be that the views of both parties are essentially the same? - Ron Paul
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Wiccan_Seeker
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: zorbman]
#11034163 - 09/10/09 03:10 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I must admit, if i could print my own money I'd celebrate it too by printing $250.000.000.000
250 G dollars
6 G people
$42 for each of us to pay to fund the victory party of the IMF taking world domination one step further.
We pass $42 as easy as a wet fart, but for many people in Africa its two months of income.
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Mr.Al
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#11034808 - 09/10/09 04:59 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
I must admit, if i could print my own money I'd celebrate it too by printing $250.000.000.000
250 G dollars
6 G people
$42 for each of us to pay to fund the victory party of the IMF taking world domination one step further.
We pass $42 as easy as a wet fart, but for many people in Africa its two months of income.
At some point no one will accept paper anymore.... Hopefully people would stop having faith in government then.
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Silversoul
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#11034883 - 09/10/09 05:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Do you really expect this money to be spent on inflationary things like derivatives? Or do you suppose it will go into wealth-producing things like infrastructure? I suspect it's the latter. You know, it's not just the amount of money that causes inflation. It's all in how it's spent. If in fact the IMF is just giving away this money instead of loaning it out, that's great news, as it will allow these countries to pay off their loans more easily.
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Mr.Al
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 Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Silversoul]
#11034957 - 09/10/09 05:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Perhaps this new way of creating money will make things more affordable Silversoul?
Maybe if the purchasing power of a nation's money is improved through increased production that might help things just a smidgen?
I'm sure the guys at the I.M.F. are really swell fellas who go to sleep at night planning about all the nice things that they can do for poor folk in third world countries!  
Edited by Mr.Al (09/10/09 05:26 PM)
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Wiccan_Seeker
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Silversoul]
#11034966 - 09/10/09 05:28 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you really expect this money to be spent on inflationary things like derivatives?
It's not about what its spent on, the very creation of the surplus money devalues all money in the money supply.
And look at this, its the IMF. A private bankers consortium is printing money and spending it in the world to their advantage. The IMF is a business. They put countries over their ears in debt and then let them pay it by selling their infrastructure off.
It is very worrisome that the world a few days ago got its own privately owned "federal reserve" in the guise of the IMF printing money as they see fit.
The little control there was, them having to borrow money, is out the window now.
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Silversoul
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#11035000 - 09/10/09 05:36 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
It's not about what its spent on, the very creation of the money devalues all money in the money supply.
Wrong. If I have 100 widgets and 100 dollars, then each widget will cost a dollar. If I increase the money supply to 1000 without producing anything, then each widget will cost 10 dollars. HOWEVER, if I use the extra 900 dollars to produce 900 more widgets, then they will still only cost 1 dollar. If you use new money to bid up the price of existing assets(speculation), that will cause inflation. But if you use it to create wealth, that is not inflationary.
Quote:
And look at this, its the IMF. A private bankers consortium is printing money and spending it in the world to their advantage. The IMF is a business. They put countries over their ears in debt and then let them pay it by selling their infrastructure off.
There's a lot to criticize the IMF about, and I really don't like the way they have all those countries in debt slavery. But it does them no good to inflate their currency in the denomination that is owed back, because then the money owed to them is worth less.
Quote:
It is very worrisome that the world a few days ago got its own privately owned "federal reserve" in the guise of the IMF printing money as they see fit.
The little control there was, them having to borrow money, is out the window now.
It is my wish that all central banks and monetary systems would be in government hands. But if they're giving money to these countries without further indebting them, I would consider this a very good thing. In fact, even if the countries didn't want to spend the money, they could hoard it and keep it out of circulation, and that would prevent inflation as well. The mere existence of money means nothing until it starts circulating.
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Mr.Al
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 Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Silversoul]
#11035054 - 09/10/09 05:47 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Your widget analogy is priceless...
It falls apart when you realize that the money supply is not increased across the board evenly...
What I mean to say is that it is not as if some benevolent individual is dropping money into everyone's wallet....
No Silversoul. A few well connected corporations will benefit greatly from the influx of new money. The Average Joe & Jane merely see prices begin to creep up and wonder why their paycheck doesn't buy shit anymore!
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zorbman
Be Prepared
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Silversoul]
#11035149 - 09/10/09 06:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you use new money to bid up the price of existing assets(speculation), that will cause inflation. But if you use it to create wealth, that is not inflationary.
As a practical matter, how could they limit spending to capital expenditures only?
Wouldn't that injection of money eventually spill over into the broader economy?
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Why does changing the party in power never change policy? Could it be that the views of both parties are essentially the same? - Ron Paul
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Silversoul
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: zorbman]
#11035191 - 09/10/09 06:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
As a practical matter, how could they limit spending to capital expenditures only?
If it's in government hands, they could spend it on infrastructure.
Quote:
Wouldn't that injection of money eventually spill over into the broader economy?
Once the money has been spent on the capital, it will have grown the economy. Thus, the money circulating afterward will be proportional to the existing wealth within the society.
As a historical example, let's look at Spain and Portugal on the one hand, and England and the Netherlands on the other. During the age of exploration, Spain and Portugal were bringing all this gold into their own countries only to enrich the aristocracy, thus resulting in massive inflation. However, English and Dutch privateers would steal the gold out of Spanish and Portugese ships, and then the money was used to create infrastructure, helping their economies grow tremendously. There was some inflation in their countries, but it was a small, manageable amount compared to that of the Iberian peninsula.
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ArmFromTheAbyss
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#11035308 - 09/10/09 06:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Obviously the money supply has an effect on prices, but its more complex than that. This notion that prices are directly tied to the quantity of money fails to account for several factors:
First there is velocity. If velocity of money is declining, it will negate "money printing" to an extent.
Second, there is the psychological aspect. When people have the expectation of future inflation they tend to speculate and bid up the prices of assets like gold, oil, real estate and commodities. One must not confuse speculation with inflation.
The financial markets, contrary to popular belief, are terrible at valuing things. Just look at the stock market rally- its based not on fundamental earnings growth, but rather expectations of "green shoots."
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"The man who knows something knows that he knows nothing at all" -Badu
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ChuangTzu
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
#11036160 - 09/10/09 09:06 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
ArmFromTheAbyss said:
Obviously the money supply has an effect on prices, but its more complex than that. This notion that prices are directly tied to the quantity of money fails to account for several factors:
...
Second, there is the psychological aspect. When people have the expectation of future inflation they tend to speculate and bid up the prices of assets like gold, oil, real estate and commodities. One must not confuse speculation with inflation.
...
Bingo. That's why this article came from kitco.com.
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Mr.Al
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 Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
#11041298 - 09/11/09 05:30 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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None of you ponder what an increase of M1 by 5 TRILLION dollars would do to the value of the dollar in America. The dollar presently has 4% of the purchasing power it had in 1913.
If an organization like the I.M.F. is allowed to create new money then there is a new mechanism for inflation of the money supply.
This is not sustainable economics. Throughout history economies have collapsed due to hyperinflation of the money supply.
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meams
Blessed
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Mr.Al]
#11042714 - 09/11/09 10:24 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I don't like this.
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 11,359
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: meams]
#11044516 - 09/12/09 05:04 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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too bad! what are you going to do?
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meams
Blessed
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Shins]
#11045469 - 09/12/09 11:19 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
too bad! what are you going to do?
Try to get a job with the IMF, duh.
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koppie
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Shins]
#11046013 - 09/12/09 01:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
too bad! what are you going to do?
Gemany has the right idea.
Quote:
TG-Gold-Super-Markt, a German company, has installed a vending machine at the [Frankfurt] airport this week and the demand is really encouraging...All you have to do to buy your gold is insert your euros in the slot and a prettily wrapped bar of the world’s favourite precious metal thuds into the dispenser. It's very convenient — no waiting time — you just put in your cash and a minute later you are an investor in gold.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: koppie]
#11046564 - 09/12/09 03:30 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
TG-Gold-Super-Markt, a German company, has installed a vending machine at the [Frankfurt] airport this week and the demand is really encouraging...All you have to do to buy your gold is insert your euros in the slot and a prettily wrapped bar of the world�s favourite precious metal thuds into the dispenser. It's very convenient � no waiting time � you just put in your cash and a minute later you are an investor in gold.
I'm sure the premiums are ridiculous.
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meams
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: ChuangTzu]
#11048088 - 09/12/09 09:22 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm tryin to rob that vending machine.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: meams]
#11050612 - 09/13/09 09:27 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said:
I don't like this.
Why do you think it's such a bad thing for the I.M.F. to be able to create money.
I'm sure the bankers have our best interests in mind right guy? 
You see why paper is so troublesome, it is just altogether too easy to counterfeit!
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meams
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Mr.Al]
#11052678 - 09/13/09 06:05 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
You see why paper is so troublesome, it is just altogether too easy to counterfeit!
The benefits of paper money far exceed its downsides. My opinion, of course.
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Yrat
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: meams]
#11056201 - 09/14/09 07:35 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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what benefits?
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"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root
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Wiccan_Seeker
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: meams]
#11056254 - 09/14/09 08:26 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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This is a Canadian Platinum Maple Leaf coin:
One ounce. Slips right into your shirt pocket.
If you rather have 14 of these:
You are a completely different person than I am.
THAT PAPER IS BACKED BY NOTHING. The coin however isn't just backed by something in a vault somewhere, its backed by what you hold in your hand.
Know what inevitably happens when paper isn't backed by something?
The dollar will shrink to ZERO. Its not about if, its about when.
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ArmFromTheAbyss
Old Hand
Registered: 10/09/02
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#11056704 - 09/14/09 11:28 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Couldn't you just melt the coins down and dilute it with nickel or something?
And there really isn't enough physical precious metals for everyone to use as you describe. I think thats why they started using the goldsmith's trick...
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"The man who knows something knows that he knows nothing at all" -Badu
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Mr.Al
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
#11056765 - 09/14/09 11:41 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
ArmFromTheAbyss said:
Couldn't you just melt the coins down and dilute it with nickel or something?
And there really isn't enough physical precious metals for everyone to use as you describe. I think thats why they started using the goldsmith's trick...
That is erroneous thinking. Instead of thinking in terms of what should be decreed as being money we could simply throw out legal tender laws. Competition in a free market would rid us of the inflationary paper or the issuers of said paper would have to exercise some serious restraint in the creation of their money.
The marketplace itself can determine the best things that it needs to utilize as a medium of exchange if people are not required by law to accept paper.
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ArmFromTheAbyss
Old Hand
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Mr.Al]
#11056876 - 09/14/09 12:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'll give you two marbles for your car. Deal? Btw, we do have a market for money its called forex.
The "free market" doesn't do anything at all besides make commission fees for the insiders. You cannot have a true free market because it is human nature to be greedy and manipulate prices. If there is anything we can learn from modern history its that financial markets determine prices not by real supply and demand but expectation of future supply and demand. So its nothing more than the tail wagging the dog.
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"The man who knows something knows that he knows nothing at all" -Badu
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meams
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
#11056973 - 09/14/09 12:32 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Wiccan:
That is a nice silver coin. Just 1oz, slips right into my shirt pocket. Well, WTF is it doing in my shirt? I certainly can't spend it - how do you make change for such a coin? I suppose if I needed to transport large sums of cash, that coin would be nice and inconspicuous. And certainly if I needed to store some wealth, that silver coin would be perfect: it doesn't take up any room and it's virtually risk free.
But I'm not in a situation where I have $1400 I need to store. Not many people I know are. We need our wealth stored in a manner that can be accepted everywhere, easily broken down into smaller units, and is just as easy to carry as your silver coin. We have it, it's called paper currency.
Certainly, in theory, a perpetually inflated currency will eventually be worth nothing. But implying that our use of a paper currency will inevitably result in a zimbabwe-like hyperinflationary environment is silly. We all know why zimbabwe ended up that way - and his last name is Mugabe. He's one of the absolutely most corrupt, least human-rights minded rulers alive today.
In case you forgot why Zimbabwe experienced hyperinflation, here's a quick rebriefing [Keep in mind, Zimbabwe's entire government is run under the complete control of Mugabe, so the actions of Zimbabwe's Federal Reserve are merely an extension of Mugabe's own will]:
Quote:
Inflation was stable until Robert Mugabe began a program of land reforms that primarily focused on taking land from white farmers and redistributing those properties and assets to black farmers; this in turn sent food production and revenues from export of food plummeting.[22][23][24] Though inflation in Zimbabwe was a monetary phenomena (the result of Mugabe's government printing money) as can be seen by the appearance of ever higher face value printed notes (whose face value exceeded the sum of all previously existing notes).
Early in the 21st century Zimbabwe started to experience chronic inflation. Inflation reached 624% in 2004, then fell back to low triple digits before surging to a new high of 1,730% in 2006. During that time, the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe revalued its currency on 1 August 2006 at a rate of 1,000 old Zimbabwean dollars to 1 revalued Zimbabwean dollar. In June 2007 inflation in Zimbabwe had risen to 11,000% year-to-year from an earlier estimate of 9,000%. On 5 May 2008 the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe issued bank notes or "bearer cheques" for the value of ZWD 100 million and ZWD 250 million.[25]. Ten days later on 15 May, new bearer cheques with a value of ZWD 500 million (then equivalent to about USD 2.5) were issued.[26] Five days later on 20 May a new series of notes in the form of "agro cheques" were issued in denominations of ZWD 5 billion, ZWD 25 billion and ZWD 50 billion. An additional agro cheque was issued for ZWD 100 billion on 21 July.[27] Meanwhile inflation has officially surged to 2,200,000%[28] with some analysts estimating figures surpassing 9,000,000 percent.[29] As of 22 July 2008 the value of the ZWD had fallen to approximately 688 billion per 1 USD, or 688 trillion pre-August 2006 Zimbabwean dollars.[30] On 1 August 2008, the Zimbabwe dollar was redenominated by removing 10 zeroes. ZWD 10 billion became 1 dollar after the redenomination.[31].
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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 Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: meams]
#11057207 - 09/14/09 01:28 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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You aren't looking at the numbers.
Checkout M2. M2 increased around 700-800 Billion recently.
The nature of fractional reserve banking is that money in M2 is eventually loaned out and MULTIPLIED into M1. Interest rates are still ridiculously low. Artificially low interest rates encourage debt and irresponsible lending - see housing bubble...
What do you think prices would do in the U.S. if M1 increased to the tune of TRILLIONS?
Edited by Mr.Al (09/14/09 01:46 PM)
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meams
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Mr.Al]
#11057255 - 09/14/09 01:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
You aren't looking at the numbers.
Says the Austrian 
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: meams]
#11057267 - 09/14/09 01:43 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nice.
What do you suppose an increase in M2 by 700-800 Billion means?
Anything intelligent to say about that?
Celente on U.S. economy:
Edited by Mr.Al (09/14/09 01:47 PM)
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Silversoul
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: meams]
#11057729 - 09/14/09 02:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I remember hearing once that hyperinflation is actually a form of debt deflation, where that debt is owed in foreign currency, and thus the government has to print money to pay off the debt instead of growing their economy. That would certainly hold true of the German hyperinflation of the 1920's. I don't know enough about Zimbabwe to tell if that's the case over there, but I think there was something about it that involved their debt to the IMF. I do know that generally once the economy starts to look weak, currency speculators come in and start short-selling the currency, making the situation a lot worse. That's one reason why I think there needs to be stronger regulation on currency speculation, particularly short-selling.
Anyway, for any transactions over a few dollars, I'll take checks and electronic money over cash or coin any day. It's backed by the numbers in my bank account, and that's all it needs to be back by. This notion that money has to be "backed by" something other than people's confidence in it is pure superstition.
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zorbman
Be Prepared
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Posts: 5,746
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: meams]
#11057807 - 09/14/09 03:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
You aren't looking at the numbers.
Says the Austrian
Are you going to address what Mr. Al said?
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Why does changing the party in power never change policy? Could it be that the views of both parties are essentially the same? - Ron Paul
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ChuangTzu
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
#11059150 - 09/14/09 07:34 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
ArmFromTheAbyss said:
The "free market" doesn't do anything at all besides make commission fees for the insiders. You cannot have a true free market because it is human nature to be greedy and manipulate prices.
Right, the government and friends aren't insiders, will set prices fairly, and not be greedy or manipulative... Because they have plenty of incentive.... 
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meams
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: zorbman]
#11059446 - 09/14/09 08:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
Quote:
meams said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
You aren't looking at the numbers.
Says the Austrian
Are you going to address what Mr. Al said?
No. Can't answer it  But i'd bet a moderate sum that it's less severe than whatever Mr. Al says it is.
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kadakuda
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: meams]
#11062067 - 09/15/09 03:57 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's a good time to buy land, fuck platinum and gold. pick a country and buy acreage.
Quote:
And there really isn't enough physical precious metals for everyone to use as you describe. I think thats why they started using the goldsmith's trick...
if it was common enough for everyone, it would just be another steel or aluminum.
Quote:
I certainly can't spend it - how do you make change for such a coin?
i don't see its value in CAD but gold coins and such that have a marked value, say $1 are legal tender and can be used as a $1 piece....stupid obviously, but legally ok. Also with things like coins, it is more readily cashable by places like banks, smiths etc because they know it purity. here in taiwan you cannot sell pure gold to banks or anyone but small companies unless it is either swiss brick with their hologram thing, or coins from the government because they are all known purity/weights etc. bricks require a bit more investment (larger size, at least here) so coins are really nice and convenient especially because if they are from a -safe-...??? country they are generally universally accepted and cashable.
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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
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Mr.Al
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: meams]
#11062781 - 09/15/09 10:35 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said:
Quote:
zorbman said:
Quote:
meams said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
You aren't looking at the numbers.
Says the Austrian
Are you going to address what Mr. Al said?
No. Can't answer it But i'd bet a moderate sum that it's less severe than whatever Mr. Al says it is.
It has appeared to me that it is part of human behavior to have a dismissive attitude towards bad news. I get that from people when I talk about economics with them.
Perhaps it is the tendency for people to not examine the economic situation honestly that contributes the most to the eventual collapse of an economy?
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meams
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Loc: In a Tree
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Mr.Al]
#11063079 - 09/15/09 12:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
It has appeared to me that it is part of human behavior to have a dismissive attitude towards bad news. I get that from people when I talk about economics with them.
Perhaps it is your perpetually dismal viewpoints that cause people to be dismissive towards your economic conversations.
Because B comes after A it does not mean that A caused B.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: meams]
#11063130 - 09/15/09 12:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's not all bad.
Nanotech developments could fix much of our problems...Checkout Arrowhead Research.
You guys don't really have an intelligent rebuttal to the concerns I voice in regards to the money supply or unsustainable debt.
If people were willing to look at the stuff that isn't pretty we wouldn't be in this economic mess to begin with.
A refusal to examine things deeply is apathetic behavior. Apathy is far more depressing than examining things because apathy gives you the feeling that you can't do anything to fix the problems.
Taking a firm resolution to examine all the information you can on economics should be empowering!
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meams
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Posts: 17,478
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Mr.Al]
#11063409 - 09/15/09 01:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm sure it is empowering. But i have so much goddamn economics in my life between my graduate classes and being a TA for two undergrad econ classes, that I just dont' want to do extra research to argue on the shroomery. I just want to come on here and say my quick little quips that exemplify how I feel about the conversation, even though they lack any empirical backing.
Take it or leave it, it's the shroomery.
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 11,359
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Mr.Al]
#11064552 - 09/15/09 05:10 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm with you Mr. AL. the apathy is saddening.
when i try to talk about this stuff 4 times out of 5 people say
"i'm not interested"
"i don't like politics"
etc.
people get angry when i say thing like
"your lack of interest is going to ruin your children's lives"
or
"your apathy makes you part of the problem"
both true but some people would rather cuss me out than take 2 hours away from the boob tube and take an honest look.
i think it's kind of like sushi in the way that you either love it or you hate it.
some people look at the raw fish go "eeew" and turn up their noses.
well anyways, keep fighting the good fight, I'm with you bro. our numbers are growing (despite what zappa thinks.)
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zorbman
Be Prepared
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,746
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Re: OK this is bad, this is really f*cking bad... [Re: Shins]
#11064673 - 09/15/09 05:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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People, even very smart people, are just not prepared for the paradigm shift that is coming. They won't change their minds until circumstances force them to. They have grown up with the present system and we seem to have gotten along well until now with it- that is until you dig a little deeper into the news.
If you only read the mainstream financial press or watch CNBC, which is basically a cheerleader for the markets..one which utterly failed to warn investors of the present crisis btw, you won't get it. These outlets have helped create a "group think" mentality amongst the public. They have a huge blind spot in their collective vision and only a major crisis, and I'm talking bigger than what we've seen so far, will dissuade them from it.
The present economic and monetary system is dead. It's not coming back, now now..not ever. It simply does not mesh with the reality of an overpopulated world with rapidly depleting resources. The harder we try to hang onto the present system the more catastrophic will be its final collapse.
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Why does changing the party in power never change policy? Could it be that the views of both parties are essentially the same? - Ron Paul
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