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 sterbeklang
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Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 824
Loc: Filthy Rock
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 Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved)  [Re: solstice]
#10748329 - 07/27/09 11:39 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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lol... this is the enlightened one
you don't have to fast to connect your body to your soul
you just have to put one foot over your neck and your other foot in your vagina.
actually, i don't see why fasting would be so bad for you.
exercise is degrading to one's body as well and that seems to be good for you.
i'm sure there is a line you don't want to cross, but it's not that big of a deal.
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 solstice
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: sterbeklang]
#10748407 - 07/27/09 12:00 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
i don't see why fasting would be so bad for you.
Tell me you're joking friend! You don't see how depriving your body of essential nourishment is bad?
Exercising is simply a mean to keep your body fit. Of course, you can exercise it to a point where it becomes detrimental, but then again, this would be considered an improper extreme. Same as fasting for a month, like the muslims do, thinking that it makes them holier than thou, opposed to fasting for a day or two in the optic of flushing out toxins from the body.
Once again, the topic here is fasting in a " spiritual " optic, which is something akin to brainwashing techniques sometimes used by the military and other fanatics in order to make followers more receptive.
There are far more healthy and efficient ways to progress spiritualy than to deprive the body of essential nourishment.
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My level is seldom seen. Few and far between, dem fools they couldn't douse my keen.
The system must fail, what will happen then? www.thevenusproject.com
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sterbeklang
w/e
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 824
Loc: Filthy Rock
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: solstice]
#10748461 - 07/27/09 12:14 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
solstice said:
Quote:
i don't see why fasting would be so bad for you.
Tell me you're joking friend! You don't see how depriving your body of essential nourishment is bad?
Sure, but it's also pretty difficult to kill yourself through starvation, so I don't know why you're having this over-the-top reaction to the subject.
Quote:
Once again, the topic here is fasting in a " spiritual " optic, which is something akin to brainwashing techniques sometimes used by the military and other fanatics in order to make followers more receptive.
And the slope gets slipperier. All I'm saying is that every once in awhile, people can gain something good from doing harm to themselves. Many people do it in one way or another. I'm not the fasting type, but I also don't have a problem with someone doing it and can see what the advantages might be. I find if I push my eating time back just a little and become hungry, I get more clarity of thought. Then after I eat, the clarity and energy are gone again.
How long would someone typically fast for spiritual purposes? I find a lot of people who say they're fasting are cheating... they'll have water or juice or whatever... food basically. 
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solstice
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: sterbeklang]
#10748503 - 07/27/09 12:26 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I don't know why you're having this over-the-top reaction to the subject.
Well, one of the reasons for it would be such an example: " All I'm saying is that every once in awhile, people can gain something good from doing harm to themselves."
 uh... what? What's up with the tendency to seek self-punishment? Is that some lingering remnant of judeo-christian guilt people? What's next? self-flagellation?
Quote:
Many people do it in one way or another.
That doesn't make it right. Basically, I'm " over-reacting " because often, these types of behaviors are considered okay while using psycho-actives is frowned upon. Both produce hallucinations but one of them is harmful. Can you guess which one? It's just another case of paradoxal consensus. Some things are outlawed while others are accepted, the problem is, it should be the other way around, like in the case of cannabis and cigarettes, alcohol and ayahuasca.
Quote:
I find if I push my eating time back just a little and become hungry, I get more clarity of thought. Then after I eat, the clarity and energy are gone again.
No offense friend, but don't you think that might have something to do with delusional thoughts due to lack of food? We could rephrase your intervention thus: I find that if I push my eating time back just a little and become hungry, I get light-headed. Then, after I eat, the clarity and energy are back to normal.
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My level is seldom seen. Few and far between, dem fools they couldn't douse my keen.
The system must fail, what will happen then? www.thevenusproject.com
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sterbeklang
w/e
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 824
Loc: Filthy Rock
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: solstice]
#10748559 - 07/27/09 12:45 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I hate to burst your bubble, but you're poisoning yourself to some extent with psychoactives in order to get high.  Shrooms make some people vomit. Ayahuasca makes everyone vomit. Coming down off of acid makes you all shivery, tight and tense. Those are signs that the body is not entirely happy with what you are doing.
There are certain limits to which people can push their bodies/minds through physical ordeals and the altered reality that sets in because of it can sometimes be used for good.
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solstice
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: sterbeklang]
#10748682 - 07/27/09 01:15 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
sterbeklang said:
I hate to burst your bubble, but you're poisoning yourself to some extent with psychoactives in order to get high. Shrooms make some people vomit. Ayahuasca makes everyone vomit. Coming down off of acid makes you all shivery, tight and tense. Those are signs that the body is not entirely happy with what you are doing.
There are certain limits to which people can push their bodies/minds through physical ordeals and the altered reality that sets in because of it can sometimes be used for good.
Still, and I am talking about natural psycho-actives such as tryptamines and phenylethylamines, what makes them active in our metabolism are molecules similar to some of the major neuro-transmitters contained in the human brain: norepinephrine and serotonin so, even though some uncomfortable feelings can arise after consumption, using tryptamines and other natural hallucinogens is far more natural than to deprive the body of what it needs.
In addition, the symptoms you are referring to are experienced, as you said so well, either as you come down, when the body is done metabolising the said molecules, or at the beginning of the experience, when the body purges itself of unwanted elements in order to proceed with the hallucinogenic journey, in cases such as ayahuasca drinking. In such cases, fasting is sometimes encouraged because of the journey that will come afterwards, but the fast is not an end, it is a way to prepare.
It's also false to say that ayahuasca Quote:
makes everyone vomit
. This is a false statement. It is also well known, as I said, that the vomiting induced by ayahuasca does not happen because the body rejects the ayahuasca, the vomiting and/or the diarrhea happens because the body needs to clean itself. This is part of the ayahuasca experience, hallucinations being only a part of the entire spectrum of experiences offered by the brew.
But, going back to the main topic, as I said, psycho-actives provide a much healthier mean of progressing spiritually and experiencing hallucinations than fasting, self-torture and other self-restraining or self-inflicted ordeals. In fact, to me and to a lot of people, such ordeals endured in order to progress spiritually are delusional substitutes for something that is the genuine source of these types of experience.
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My level is seldom seen. Few and far between, dem fools they couldn't douse my keen.
The system must fail, what will happen then? www.thevenusproject.com
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dieselkush
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: sterbeklang]
#10748703 - 07/27/09 01:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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lol, no shit. I agree with you, but not the guy above. as fasting is not bad for the body. again, it flushes it of deadly toxins that we consume everyday. toxins from food, products used for the body etc. this has ben done for years through out history.
"When you begin a fast your body first looks to your digestive track nutrients and calories which it could use for 8-12 hours. Once your body has used up the energy from the digestive track it goes to the liver for glycogen stores. The stores of glycogen also last about 8 to 12 hours. After the glycogen stores are used the body then goes for muscle tissue which converts it to glucose energy. You should not be afraid of the energy taken from the muscle tissue, the body does not like to loose any more muscle then it feels is needs to so as the fast continues it will quickly switch to consuming primarily fat"
once your body starts eating through your primary fats it becomes a danger. as this will cause the body to start taking from vital organs in the body, and eventually leading to organs shuting down. your not depriving your body of nutrients, as you go back to eating after the fast. you just use up most of what the body has stored, and in doing so gives the body time to flush itself. and helps heal any problems the body may have.
read this thread to find more detail about fasting. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6439069#6439069
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sterbeklang
w/e
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 824
Loc: Filthy Rock
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: solstice]
#10748737 - 07/27/09 01:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
solstice said:
It is also well known, as I said, that the vomiting induced by ayahuasca does not happen because the body rejects the ayahuasca, the vomiting and/or the diarrhea happens because the body needs to clean itself.
In that case, you don't vomit or have diarrhea when you fast because your body is already purified from not eating. Therefore, your body can naturally go to higher realms without requiring you to take some alien molecule into your digestive tract, a molecule that rocks the fragile boat of your internal ecosystem into believing it's having a spiritual experience via an unnatural chemical imbalance centered in the brain.
Just tell me you're the product of a Greek, Italian or Jewish mother and I'll go away. Aren't they the ones stereotypically overfeeding everyone?
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solstice
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: sterbeklang]
#10748886 - 07/27/09 01:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
as fasting is not bad for the body. again, it flushes it of deadly toxins that we consume everyday. toxins from food, products used for the body etc. this has ben done for years through out history.
Again... this topic is not about the benefits of fasting in order to flush toxins out of the body, this topic is about the spiritual benefits of fasting. These are two completely different things. I do not deny the benefits of fasting with the goal of purifying the organism, what I am against though, is this idea of depriving the body of either food, air, sex and other essentials and believing that it will make you holier.
That, is bullshit and most probably a mean to break the will of naive seekers. What's interesting is that you can find such a practice encouraged by any religion known to man, it says a lot.
Quote:
In that case, you don't vomit or have diarrhea when you fast because your body is already purified from not eating.
Sources for such a claim? Someone might say that even if you fast, " The stores of glycogen " will be purged before you come to enjoy the benefits of, let's say ayahuasca. In fact, aboriginal tribes who use ayahuasca strongly suggest to avoid sugar amongst other things before launching into such an experience.
Quote:
Therefore, your body can naturally go to higher realms without requiring you to take some alien molecule into your digestive tract
Again, your previous statement would have to be backed by hard facts in order to make that one true. Therefore I will go on scoffing at claims of reaching " higher realms " made by people who shy away from food and will keep on going through the " trouble " of cooking healthy, organic food that does not keep one away from those " higher realms ", even though some may claim otherwise. At the very least, I'll have the luxury of being well adapted to the physical realm since I am still a mere mortal and as such, having to take care of my physical self... As for your " alien " molecules... you do know that dimethyltryptamine is endogenous right? And that phenylethylamines are to norepinephrine what DMT is to serotonin?
Quote:
Just tell me you're the product of a Greek, Italian or Jewish mother and I'll go away. Aren't they the ones stereotypically overfeeding everyone?
None of the above.
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My level is seldom seen. Few and far between, dem fools they couldn't douse my keen.
The system must fail, what will happen then? www.thevenusproject.com
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stzacrack
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: solstice]
#10749016 - 07/27/09 02:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Solstice, are you aware that when you excersize, lift weights, etc...you are tearing muscle fibers, and it's the tearing and repairing of these muscle fibers that eventually leads to more dense, lean, and stronger muscles?
What makes you certain that what is more efficient or healthier for you may be the same for others?
Who is left to draw the line between indigenous wisdom and indigenous myth? Is there anyway for you to be sure before you had tried yourself?
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Fraggin
Multi-Faceted
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity [Re: iluvfungi]
#10749031 - 07/27/09 02:26 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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When fasting, it is important to be healthy foremost. Secondly, ensuring water intake is also important. You can live days on end without food, but not water. Glucose levels are also important to take note of when fasting. This is how fasting can be dangerous. If your blood sugar falls too low, this could be a problem.
Now, if you are healthy, and you do want to fast, I would not reccomend jumping into a fast head first. I would reccomend cutting back calorie intake for a few days, eating only pure foods, specifically raw, uncooked, fruits and vegetables.
If you can do this for a week or two successfully, then there is no reason you cannot give fasting a try.
If you do want to give fasting a try, I would reccomend it over an extended weekend. You don't want to be running a marathon or doing a normal routine while fasting. Reserve as much energy as possible.
Now for the lenght of a fast, I would never reccomend anyone go more than 3 days of not eating unless they are experienced. I cannot see any effects of going longer than 5 days to be beneficial in any aspect other than being self-sacrificing.
The state that people talk about being in while fasting generally occurs between day 2 and day 5. For me, it's day 3. The general feeling of well being is attributed to lack of food in your digestive system. The amount of work it takes to break down food into useable nutrients for the body is significant. When the mind and body is free from this task, the resources can be used elsewhere.
After a certain point, your body will begin autolysis and start killing off weak cells for use as food and fuel. This is supposedly one of the other beneficial aspects of fasting.
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sterbeklang
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Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 824
Loc: Filthy Rock
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: solstice]
#10749074 - 07/27/09 02:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
solstice said:
Quote:
In that case, you don't vomit or have diarrhea when you fast because your body is already purified from not eating.
Sources for such a claim?
It's simple logic. When you fast, you don't have food in your digestive tract. Therefore, there is nothing to purge from the system. Therefore, if ayahuasca is making you vomit/diarrhea in order to purify you, then it must be the food that is making you impure. Ayahuasca has to purge the food from your body before it can work. People who fast have already skipped this step by purging their system on their own.
Yes, I have DMT in my brain naturally, but it is held at a certain level where I am not tripping balls 24/7. Therefore, I posited that getting high off DMT is creating an unnatural chemical imbalance in the brain, not that the molecule itself was unnatural. Of course, I'm not saying this is bad. I'm down with both drugs and fasting. Whatever you want to do. Do both. I don't care.
This argument is entirely impractical. Perhaps people who fast are first purging their bodies of impurity (on their own) by fasting, then also manipulating the balance of brain chemicals (on their own) through meditation. 
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solstice
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity [Re: Fraggin]
#10749169 - 07/27/09 02:51 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Solstice, are you aware that when you excersize, lift weights, etc...you are tearing muscle fibers, and it's the tearing and repairing of these muscle fibers that eventually leads to more dense, lean, and stronger muscles?
Yes, I was more or less aware of that but I hardly think it is the same as completely cutting yourself off from food in order to achieve enlightenment Anywhere I see such a thing advertised, I react because some people might take it for truth...
Quote:
What makes you certain that what is more efficient or healthier for you may be the same for others?
I am not certain. I just think certain things make more sense than others. Human beings are human beings, they need food, they need air, water and sleep. Hallucinations are the results of altering brain chemistry. You can either achieve such an alteration by cutting yourself off from primordial elements needed for survival and health or you can get there by using what nature offers. Incidently, these gifts have been test-driven for you so you know that they present no risks as long as you use them properly.
I don't know about you... but to me, spiritual progress doesn't seem right when it has to result in risking my health or my life.
Quote:
Who is left to draw the line between indigenous wisdom and indigenous myth?
Instead, the question should be" What information is left for us to draw the line? "
Well, centuries of information gathered and available. In other words, Occam's razor. The only thing that gives genuine results, amidst the pile of claims that people make that this and that will produce " spiritual results " are the psycho-active plants. The rest is mere speculation that cannot be reproduced in a lab. Of course hallucinations can occur when you reach a certain point in abstinence, but is that the best way since it can also be reached by avoiding such risks?
Quote:
Is there anyway for you to be sure before you had tried yourself?
Oh, I do know what I am talking about. I was once a muslim and fasted for months on end thinking that it would get me closer to God. What bullshit! and those who think that it's true will hopefully snap out of it sooner than later. Same as the christian tendency to see one's self as a sinner and live your life as such. What makes us think that suffering is part of spiritual progress? It doesn't have to be.
The bottom line is, you want hallucinations? You want to explore your consciousness? You want to analyse yourself? your life? Well, nature has what you need and this is not only true about spiritual purposes, it is also true for everything, in every sphere of our lives! Nature gives us what we need, and it's been that way from the beginning so to think that we can achieve anything by cutting ourselves from the eco-system and what is offers us, the eco-system which, in a way, acts as some sort of placenta for not only our species but for all the species living on this bio-sphere, is delusional ego-centrism.
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My level is seldom seen. Few and far between, dem fools they couldn't douse my keen.
The system must fail, what will happen then? www.thevenusproject.com
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solstice
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity [Re: solstice]
#10749238 - 07/27/09 03:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's simple logic.
No it's not, it's speculation. Unless you can present to me enough evidence of people who fasted before drinking ayahuasca and did not " purge ", this will remain speculation. Although, I admit it makes sense.
Quote:
Yes, I have DMT in my brain naturally, but it is held at a certain level where I am not tripping balls 24/7.
Well, in a way, you are. The natural brain chemistry we enjoy on a day to day basis, is some sort of trip, or at least, one of the many ways to experience reality and life. DMT is part of that natural chemistry and when you alter it's level, or the level of any other chemical in your brain, you alter reality, your reality.
This is old news, but it still says a lot that the most important catalyst for hallucinations are molecules similar to what the normal brain chemistry contains, tryptamines and phenylethylamines.
Quote:
Therefore, I posited that getting high off DMT is creating an unnatural chemical imbalance in the brain, not that the molecule itself was unnatural.
You did say something about alien molecules... But the point is, an imbalance generated by the use of molecules similar to those normally found in the brain is most probably better than an imbalance generated by the brain acting to " fill in the gaps " because you are not feeding yourself like you should do. In other words, if nature intended us to eat only once a week, we wouldn't go hungry every couple of hours.
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My level is seldom seen. Few and far between, dem fools they couldn't douse my keen.
The system must fail, what will happen then? www.thevenusproject.com
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,027
Loc: NY
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity [Re: solstice]
#10749524 - 07/27/09 03:51 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Early man didn't have a choice to fast, he ate when the food was available. I don't see the point of fasting for days at a time, it seems like a impractical austerity. Didn't the Buddha choose the Middle Path for a reason? Fasting a few hours before taking psychedelics on the other hand makes sense, you don't want to mix impure foods with these sacraments.
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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
    
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Fraggin
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#10749540 - 07/27/09 03:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Early man didn't have a choice to fast, he ate when the food was available. I don't see the point of fasting for days at a time, it seems like a impractical austerity. Didn't the Buddha choose the Middle Path for a reason? Fasting a few hours before taking psychedelics on the other hand makes sense, you don't want to mix impure foods with these sacraments.
Buddha said that man cannot meditate on an empty stomach. Or something to that regard.
Fasting has it's applications, but I wouldn't say any of such applications refers to enlightenment or spirituality. IF so, perhaps practicing desirelessness, but thats about all.
In terms of health, fasting can be beneficial. And partial fasting for health reasons can be even more beneficial than complete fasting.
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Melt the Chill
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: solstice]
#10751755 - 07/27/09 10:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well there are different ways to reach "enlightenment". If you are a greedy person, you must enlighten yourself to not be greedy by realizing that what you lust after is meaningless. This is an example of how enlightenment works... so it is easy to understand how fasting may enlighten you.
By fasting, you are showing your body and "spirit" that food is just a part of your entire life, not to be considered something that is a reason to live.
Sure, you may be able to hallucinate by fasting- but hallucination is not the only means to reach enlightenment. Hallucination through fasting is stupid, and I don't see how that could enlighten anyone.
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JohnP
Why?
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: stzacrack]
#10752457 - 07/28/09 12:31 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Solstice is the only one disagreeing. I think this is funny. Let him disagree. IF he doesnt want to benefit from it, thats fine. we all know it can be beneficial for certain people including ourselves and can fast if we like.
Just like tripping, not for everyone, maybe, but in time, we all wont be eating.
And heres something nice to remember... just how refreshing the sun can be sometimes.
The fruit diet sounds interesting.
And solstice, not to argue but not everyone eats healthy, alot of food out there, the bulk of it, 95% of it in the US in many places at least is food that kills with nasty addatives, Genetically modified, pesticides, preservatives, natural and artificial flavorings, not to mention ... all the other nasty combinations people may happen to eat.
I'd rather fast and eat healthy every 3 days than eat shit, Everyday.
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JohnP
Why?
Registered: 08/07/06
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: JohnP]
#10752464 - 07/28/09 12:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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And imo, reality is a psychosomatic paradise. It's all in our heads.
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iluvfungi
Registered: 06/18/09
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Re: Fasting to reach spirituallity (moved) [Re: JohnP]
#10752527 - 07/28/09 12:49 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wow, it was just an idea/topic. You guys sure like to chat it up.
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