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 Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 1 day, 13 hours
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 Re: The Extravert and the Introvert  [Re: Lakefingers]
#10733970 - 07/24/09 06:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nah, he taught my Psychology of Personality course, actually. Spending a lot of time on the very topic we're discussing now. That's the only reason I know he was both extraverted and neurotic -- he was not bashful about it.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/18/06
Posts: 9,618
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 15 hours, 45 minutes
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
#10733982 - 07/24/09 06:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sounds like a psych professor I had. He was so focused on the students that he would purposely call on the person who he saw was paying the least attention, and so neurotic that he did it as many times as it was necessary to embarrass the person into waking up.
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 5,660
Loc: mumuland
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
#10733984 - 07/24/09 06:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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aye
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 1 day, 13 hours
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: xFrockx]
#10734052 - 07/24/09 06:38 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
Sounds like a psych professor I had. He was so focused on the students that he would purposely call on the person who he saw was paying the least attention, and so neurotic that he did it as many times as it was necessary to embarrass the person into waking up.
No, this guy was much more extreme than that.
He had interesting reactions to just about everything.
For instance, he'd see someone peek into the room from a door, which is literally hundreds of feet away, and would have quite the reaction. Seemingly distracted from his thought, until he'd snap back. Then, being aware that we're all going "wtf", he'd explain. Claiming that someone just ran up to the door to make a face at him. Or some equally unlikely random occurrence.
Or once he stopped standing in the middle of the room, and moved all the way to the far corner, simply because he felt something strange about the middle. I would have loved to have known what that "something strange" was, but he was super fluid in all these actions. Only delaying class a moment to make his adjustment (aloud) and then continue from his new position.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
#10734712 - 07/24/09 08:52 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Doen't 'liking' someone usually mean that you're 'alike?'
p.s. I agree, we've been giving extraverts a hard time.
How about the introverts with their paranoia and delusions of grandeur? 
Am I understanding Jung correctly when I say, no schizophrenic will be anything but intensely introverted?
Interestingly enough, if you look at the work of William Herbert Sheldon - Somatatypes (Ectomorph, Mesomorph, Endomorph - or Don Knotts, Arnold Schwartzeneggar, Dom DeLuise respectively, and in the extremes), there is a correlation between body type and associated temperament, and mental illness types. Ectomorphs with their overdeveloped nervous systems tend to become schizophrenic. Mesomorphs with their big boned, heavily muscled bodies and aggressive temperaments tend to develop paranoid disorders, delusions of grandeur and persecution, and soft viscera-dominated Endomorphs with their viscerotonic emotional and pleasure-seeking temperaments tend to develop manic-depressive (now, bi-polar) disorders.
There is some correlation with Ectomorphs tending towards introversion while the Mesomorphs (action-oriented) and Endomorphs (social-oriented) tend toward extraversion. So an Ectomorph will tend toward the more catatonic schizophrenia type, while the schizophrenic Mesomorph will tend toward the paranoid type. Manic-Depression used to be considered an "affective psychosis" which would permit Endomorphs to fit into a category quite similar to schizophrenia in that manic-depression AND schizophrenia were both psychoses.
Is this clarifying anything? I think I'm now confused. Anyway, body type corresponds with temperament, and both of these correspond with tendencies towards certain mental illnesses. Jung knew Sheldon. Sheldon's God-father was the great William James. Maybe better to talk about ideas than persons. Nobody owns an idea.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 1 day, 13 hours
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ecto-who? meso-what?
As if I didn't have enough to read as it is 
Thanks for the tidbits. Sounds like a more modern adaptation of phrenology.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 6 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
#10737040 - 07/25/09 09:36 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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bradley
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 6,893
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Heh, I don't usually think badly of extraverts, this thread just sort of temporarily skewed my view - it seemed like you were really ranting on them for a minute. Anyway, that is pretty amazing about Walt Whitman. Have you read Narcissus and Goldmund? How you described WW makes me think the story was more about the extravert/introvert relationship more than anything.
Quote:
Ectomorphs with their overdeveloped nervous systems tend to become schizophrenic.
I've scanned a couple sites on schizophrenic nervous sytems and they seemed to say they have reduced limbic and cortex volume with less spines and dendrites, lower connectivity, but with greater neuronal density. Isn't this more deteriorated than built up?
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TheMushaman
Philosophical Wanderer
Registered: 05/31/09
Posts: 442
Loc: Electric Ladyland
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: TYL3R]
#10741602 - 07/26/09 05:52 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
TYL3R said:
My grasp on Extroverts :
Extroverts are preoccupied with the objective world meaning the things they do in their outward/social life
that makes them feel happy, accomplished or content with their reality. They don't look for happiness inside themselves, because the only happiness they've known has come from outside themselves.
So they remain empty and abandon their own goals and dreams to fulfill a lifestyle that their environment presents. They seek from their immediate environment what they believe will bring them connection, fulfillment and happiness in their lives. Their entire consciousness and reality is centered outward to the surrounding world looking for things that compel them and give direction.
That is a very cynically subjective take on the extrovert my friend. I presume that you are an introvert? You seem biased.
Not all extroverts look outside for happiness because they cannot find it inside. A small percentage do, but it would be silly to base your opinion of extroverts off of those few. Many extroverts are actually quite the contrary of your unfortunate perception. We are quite satisfyed with our inner selves, so much we choose to seek to help the world and others.
The extrovert/introvert identity is a very retrospective situation. You seem very subjective in your view as stated. In fact, this is the very beauty of it all. Your subjectivity made you cynical in your perception of extroverts! Think more objectively and you shall see the beauty in both sides. Being objective is simply that! Objectivity is looking at a situation from an unbiased stance. Once you view the world from a completely objective position you will be able to see the true beauty of the world and life itself. In order for that to happen, one must be truly content and comfortable with who they are.
But hey, thats just me.
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The messages and posts submitted by this user are purely hypothetical and intended for educational/entertainment purposes only. The above user does not advocate any illegal activities or substances. However, the user feels that proper education and awareness is needed in all aspects of life. This user is open to intelligent discourse and any variety of topics, but only for educational/research purposes and to expand the awareness of others. Freedom is a beautiful thing, but can only be obtained through elevated awareness. Simply put, free thy mind and thy ass shall surely follow.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
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 Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: bradley]
#10745925 - 07/27/09 12:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Acording to Sheldon, ectomorphs develop from the ectodermal germ layer. Tall thin body types have dendrites closer together and the ectomorph is physically more sensitive to the enviornment. This, in connection with less muscular, skeletal or adipose bulk tends to make ectomorphs more physically fragile. The cerbrotonic temperament that corresponds is given to 'nervousness' and psychological exaccerbations effecting cerebration - thinking, hence thought disorders, i.e., schizophrenias. It's working from cerebrotonia/ectomorphy to psychopathology, not, as you put it, the other way around. Of course other types can develop schizophrenia.
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CaptainCrunch
Contrary ToPopular Belief
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 908
Loc: Somwhere Over the rainbow
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Which one comes first? Thought or emotion?
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TheMushaman
Philosophical Wanderer
Registered: 05/31/09
Posts: 442
Loc: Electric Ladyland
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Acording to Sheldon, ectomorphs develop from the ectodermal germ layer. Tall thin body types have dendrites closer together and the ectomorph is physically more sensitive to the enviornment. This, in connection with less muscular, skeletal or adipose bulk tends to make ectomorphs more physically fragile. The cerbrotonic temperament that corresponds is given to 'nervousness' and psychological exaccerbations effecting cerebration - thinking, hence thought disorders, i.e., schizophrenias. It's working from cerebrotonia/ectomorphy to psychopathology, not, as you put it, the other way around. Of course other types can develop schizophrenia.
Do you have a source? I am obliged to doubt that. Do you know if Sheldon was discredited for that study, and either way I would love to read it as it is a fascinating concept.
Quote:
CaptainCrunch said:
Which one comes first? Thought or emotion?
Most presume thought, but it depends on what theory of drive and incentive you go by. Arousal Theory as well as Maslow's Hierarchy of needs would say thought came first. Drive Reduction Theory would say emotion comes first. Instinct Theory is better thought of as a less tangible mix of the two. However, I suppose that is subjective in it's self.
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The messages and posts submitted by this user are purely hypothetical and intended for educational/entertainment purposes only. The above user does not advocate any illegal activities or substances. However, the user feels that proper education and awareness is needed in all aspects of life. This user is open to intelligent discourse and any variety of topics, but only for educational/research purposes and to expand the awareness of others. Freedom is a beautiful thing, but can only be obtained through elevated awareness. Simply put, free thy mind and thy ass shall surely follow.
Edited by TheMushaman (07/27/09 02:27 AM)
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 1 day, 13 hours
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: TheMushaman]
#10749488 - 07/27/09 03:45 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you have a source? I am obliged to doubt that. Do you know if Sheldon was discredited for that study, and either way I would love to read it as it is a fascinating concept.
Did you read the Wiki that Markos linked?
It addressed that IMO.
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Prof. Astro
acirebma
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: bradley]
#10749660 - 07/27/09 04:14 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Extrovert by definition in terms of psychology is a person who is well spoken, charming and to use the expression "the life of the party."
Introvert is the inner life, not meaning mentally ill just sort of the lost in thought type to make it simple.
What is interesting is that most serial killers are extroverts with extraordinary abilities to seem as though they are a charming and trustworthy person.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
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Loc: South Florida
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Quote:
CaptainCrunch said:
Which one comes first? Thought or emotion?
Ah, this remind me of the 3rd time I took acid - blue-grey 1/4" blotter acid - with my original tripping buddy Kenny. Yes, by cracky, it was 1972, and we were walking in South Mountain Reservation, in west Orange, NJ, and the profound thought occurred to me: "Emotions are melted thoughts!" I don't know why I posted this. I might be entering into my 'second childhood'  . Clearly, emotions exist prior to 'thought.' Awareness in the neonate is sensori-motor, but we are born with a primal cry which is emotion at its most primitively organismic - total emotion - hard-wired. Thinking requires repetition of experience, building up of a schema, development of some symbolic structure, like some baby-sound for bottle or breast (I know, I know, some of youse guys still have baby-sounds for breast  ).
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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Prof. Astro
acirebma
Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 4,083
Last seen: 1 month, 19 days
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Sounds like you have oral fixation tendencies, tell me about your mother -- did she stop breast feeding early?
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TheMushaman
Philosophical Wanderer
Registered: 05/31/09
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Prof. Astro]
#10751701 - 07/27/09 10:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wikipedia is not a credible source. It is user generated and not checked for facts. I can get on there right now and make up some animal or something. If your are going to use a source, use a credible one please.
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The messages and posts submitted by this user are purely hypothetical and intended for educational/entertainment purposes only. The above user does not advocate any illegal activities or substances. However, the user feels that proper education and awareness is needed in all aspects of life. This user is open to intelligent discourse and any variety of topics, but only for educational/research purposes and to expand the awareness of others. Freedom is a beautiful thing, but can only be obtained through elevated awareness. Simply put, free thy mind and thy ass shall surely follow.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
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Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 1 day, 13 hours
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: TheMushaman]
#10752201 - 07/27/09 11:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheMushaman said:
Wikipedia is not a credible source. It is user generated and not checked for facts. I can get on there right now and make up some animal or something. If your are going to use a source, use a credible one please.
What exactly was presented that requires a source? A theory?
You don't trust Markos to be delivering the theory correctly?
I don't exactly understand what you're looking for here 
The source of the thoery, is the theorist -- William Sheldon.
The source of Markos posts, seems to be Markos.
I don't believe Markos is speaking from any particular book, he is speaking from his own general knowledge of the theory proposed by Sheldon. I'm not sure how many books Sheldon produced, or how many papers, but I'm sure Markos has read his share of them. What he has posted seems to be a regurgitation of that knowledge. So, again, Markos is the source.
I asked if you read the Wiki because it discussed a bit about the second half of your question: "Do you know if Sheldon was discredited for that study"
Not to provide you with some scientific source for... well, I don't really know
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TheMushaman
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
#10753088 - 07/28/09 03:07 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
TheMushaman said:
Wikipedia is not a credible source. It is user generated and not checked for facts. I can get on there right now and make up some animal or something. If your are going to use a source, use a credible one please.
What exactly was presented that requires a source? A theory?
You don't trust Markos to be delivering the theory correctly?
I don't exactly understand what you're looking for here
The source of the thoery, is the theorist -- William Sheldon.
The source of Markos posts, seems to be Markos.
I don't believe Markos is speaking from any particular book, he is speaking from his own general knowledge of the theory proposed by Sheldon. I'm not sure how many books Sheldon produced, or how many papers, but I'm sure Markos has read his share of them. What he has posted seems to be a regurgitation of that knowledge. So, again, Markos is the source.
I asked if you read the Wiki because it discussed a bit about the second half of your question: "Do you know if Sheldon was discredited for that study"
Not to provide you with some scientific source for... well, I don't really know
I simply meant that if he were going to talk about Sheldon like his theory was real, I would like a more credible source than wiki. I'd love to read that study. It's just I have been taught otherwise. It's an interesting and very creative theory, I'd love to read the studies on it.
I meant no attack to Markos, he is a great guy. I just wanted to read the study, there was no hostility. Wiki is just a bullshit source, I'd love to read more on it.
Markos, do you happen to know the name of the book or study done on Sheldon's theory? Not shooting you down, I love the idea, just much rather have a credible source to read on it from. Thanks
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The messages and posts submitted by this user are purely hypothetical and intended for educational/entertainment purposes only. The above user does not advocate any illegal activities or substances. However, the user feels that proper education and awareness is needed in all aspects of life. This user is open to intelligent discourse and any variety of topics, but only for educational/research purposes and to expand the awareness of others. Freedom is a beautiful thing, but can only be obtained through elevated awareness. Simply put, free thy mind and thy ass shall surely follow.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: TheMushaman]
#10758247 - 07/28/09 11:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Um...I read the Wiki material before I post it to see if it is accurate, based upon my own knowledge of Sheldon. I was first introduced to in high school psychology (first time they ever offered it) in 1970, but met up with many years later through Ropp's The Master Game, and later still, in grad school. His work was in personality textsbooks. I also managed to find a copy of his Atlas of Man - a rare find. He died before he could do a parallel study with females.
All Wiki is not bogus. I have taught graduate school - Masters level - in personality and human development, just so you know that I actually possess come academic integrity. I was not asked to come back as an adjunct because I didn't insure grades of A just because people could afford to sit in a private university. I actually ended up giving both the questions AND the friggin' answers to the midterm and final exams, and these losers STILL could not get the 'A' they wanted! It was an expensive diploma mill, but I refused to simply fudge their test scores. F**k 'em! And, if you think I'm uncritically posting stuff that I haven't first looked into, the same to you. 
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