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Kickle
A Dying Hope


Registered: 12/16/06
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The Extravert and the Introvert
#10718339 - 07/22/09 01:13 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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At it's most basic, these two can be broken down as follows: Extravert - Preoccupied with the objective world Introvert - Preoccupied with the subjective world
The following quotes are from Jung's Psychological Types
The Introvert...
Quote:
the introvert interposes a subjective view between the perception of the object and his own action, which prevents the action from assuming a character that corresponds with the objective situation.
Ok, simple enough, but why?
Quote:
The world exists not merely in itself, but also as it appears to me. Indeed, at bottom, we have absolutely no criterion that could help us to form a judgment of a world whose nature was unassimilable by the subject.
So if we have no basis for the world, other than what we, the subject, prescribe, we must assume the world is subjective, right?
But how can the subjective nature of the world be anything but another base to build upon. If you deny an objective world, by claiming that everything is subjective, you must establish a base to stand upon. This subjectivity is the base -- one stands upon one's own perception. And this, can lead to problems in communication.
Quote:
Thus, just as it seems incomprehensible to the introvert that the object should always be decisive, it remains just as enigmatic to the extravert how a subjective standpoint can be superior to the objective situation. He reaches the unavoidable conclusion that the introvert is either a conceited egoist or a fantastic doctrinaire.
And the extraverts are generally correct in calling the introvert an egoist! For standing solely upon ones perception leaves little room for anyone else. Particularly when there is a strict denial of objective reality.
If the introvert were to pull their subjectivity from the self, rather than from the ego, this problem would not arise. Unfortunately, the self is integrated into the objective world, and when the objective world is written off as being subjective, so too is the self. The ego, which has no roots in an objective world, is substituted.
The Extravert:
Quote:
[The extravert] naturally has subjective values, but their determining power has less importance than the external objective conditions. Never, therefore, does he expect to find any absolute factors in his own inner life, since the only ones he knows are outside himself. Epimetheus-like, his inner life succumbs to the external necessity, not of course without a struggle; which, however, always ends in favour of the objective determinant. His entire consciousness looks outwards to the world, because the important and decisive determination always comes to him from without. But it comes to him from without, only because that is where he expects it.
Much as the introvert makes a base around his own subjective experience, the extravert makes his base around objective experience. Giving himself entirely to the objective world, body, mind, and soul. However, the world is not solely objective, just as it is not solely subjective. And this too has ramifications.
Quote:
Objective conditions may be either temporarily or locally abnormal. An individual who is accommodated to such con certainly conforms to the abnormal style of his surroundings, but, in relation to the universally valid laws of life. He is, in common with his milieu, in an abnormal position.
If the conditions are maladaptive, say for example, in a crime stricken ghetto, the extravert will nearly blindly follow the predominant functioning of such a location, perpetuating the cycle of dysfunction.
In terms of society, if society starts to go to hell, the extraverts are going to be the ones who continue to drive it into the ground. But extraverts are necessary for any such system to exist in the first place. I guess it is only natural for the captain to go down with the ship.
This is the early stages of integrating this information, so I'm interested in feedback. Does each type have its strengths and weaknesses, or is one to be valued above the other? Why are we seemingly born with a predisposition to view the world in such a polarized way? And which type are you  Discuss.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
#10721327 - 07/22/09 04:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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My Lady and I are both INTPs, about 3% of the US population. She has less of a social need than I have, but I prefer introverts over extraverts, those whose inner lives predominate the outer life in significant ways. We are not psychotics or autistics, but we would rather have a discussion with one or two people about spirituality, religion, psychology, mythology, politics (for me as an outgrowth of type), than so sit with a bunch of drunken screaming football fans in front of a televised game.
My inner life, which among other things is fairly well-ordered w/o being OCD, manifests in my manner of dress and the aesthetics of house and yard. Anyone with any psychedelic experience should feel immediately at home at our home, inside and out. Those who do not, like conservative Christians and police officers, have to be verbally reassured that nothing here is intended to convey anything sinister, artistically. To the last cop who walked from front to back yard had to be told by me, "Don't worry, there's nothing here that will embarrass you," meaning, don't worry, there's nothing here that is gonna cause you to arrest the guy who called you here.half of life to be introverted when everyone (except other introverts) are 'going out' into the world to act and court and fight and f**k.
During the second half of life, with the empty nest syndrome and retirement, extraverts lose their minds. The external activities gone, they are forced to confront their own impoverished inner lives. They become those paunchy, grey, former NFL players with headsets who pontificate about the fine points of today's televised game. It's all about the game. That strikes me with horror and disgust at a life wasted, but that is why inner-directed people seem egoistic. For me, the inner precedes the outer. An ecstatic hermit in a cave lives an infinitely more meaningful and potentially more fulfilling life than a Hugh Hefner, who even in his seventies is proped up in his endeavor not to experience the emptiness. But that's just me. This didn't stop me from envying Hef when I was 12-18, but as I began to awaken, so did my ethics, and my sexual behavior insisted on more than just hedonism.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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xFrockx


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" For me, the inner precedes the outer. An ecstatic hermit in a cave lives an infinitely more meaningful and potentially more fulfilling life than a Hugh Hefner, who even in his seventies is proped up in his endeavor not to experience the emptiness"
Why is one better than the other? What makes the difference exactly? Are they not both livers? What criterion makes some experiences "better" than others?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: xFrockx]
#10721591 - 07/22/09 05:43 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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There is no 'objectively better.' The inquiry of Kickle's was for personal testimony. I was only speaking from my own experience. Certainly, the flaming extravert takes an opposite view. I remember a former colleague, soccer-mom type exclaiming something like, "I can't stand coming home to an empty house!' Her life would be a nightmare for me with her two spoiled kids going to dance and soccer and karate and play dates, and on and on. Never reading, thinking, contemplating, but always attempting to fill an existential vacuum with endless activity. She once said, "You don't marry for love, you marry for lifestyle." That was pretty much the last straw for me. What a mindless, materialistic suburban bimbo she turned out to be. I'm not a loud and obnoxious person, and whereas all extraverts are not loud and obnoxious to fellow extraverts, they usually are experienced that way by introverts. Much of this seems constitutional, a la William Herbert Sheldon's somatotypes and associated temperaments.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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stereolab
zig zag wanderer



Registered: 06/08/09
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Loc: NY
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I'm an INFP, but only ~50-60% introverted so I'm fairly close to an ENFP. I think I am preoccupied with my subjective world, but my subjective world includes, ideally, a good amount of external interaction, which is sometimes a lot more fun than "my own world". Although of course the external interaction is still a part of "my own world" I tend to try to distance myself from the past and future and just focus on making the moment fun.
Introverts do tend to be more self-centered, but this is not always the case. Extraverts can be quite self-centered too, treating reality more as a giant popularity contest with them at the center. Introverts might FOCUS on themselves more, but that doesn't mean they don't feel others are equally important to them (or, for depressed introverts, "I'm not okay, everyone else is okay").
Neither is better. Being an extravert seems to be more common in American society, but I would imagine in other countries that is not the case. Since it is more mainstream, many people might come up with the illusion that it is "better" when this is not true. Are Blink-182 better than The 13th Floor Elevators just because they're more popular? Of course not. I think introverts might tend to get more depressed easier, because they cling to their subjective world which is more difficult to change, and break out of negative patterns, than an objective world, where you can just change the location.
I think if I try hard enough, some days, I can be quite extraverted when I'm around with good people and environments, but when I'm alone I'm definitely more introverted and normally don't like to make plans to see others except for my close friends.
They're really just labels though. Good labels, but labels none-the-less. I think it's possible to be both introverted and extraverted. Why not?
good topic
-------------------- The spiritual revolution
starts inside.
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stereolab
zig zag wanderer



Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 940
Loc: NY
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: There is no 'objectively better.' The inquiry of Kickle's was for personal testimony. I was only speaking from my own experience. Certainly, the flaming extravert takes an opposite view. I remember a former colleague, soccer-mom type exclaiming something like, "I can't stand coming home to an empty house!' Her life would be a nightmare for me with her two spoiled kids going to dance and soccer and karate and play dates, and on and on. Never reading, thinking, contemplating, but always attempting to fill an existential vacuum with endless activity. She once said, "You don't marry for love, you marry for lifestyle." That was pretty much the last straw for me. What a mindless, materialistic suburban bimbo she turned out to be. I'm not a loud and obnoxious person, and whereas all extraverts are not loud and obnoxious to fellow extraverts, they usually are experienced that way by introverts. Much of this seems constitutional, a la William Herbert Sheldon's somatotypes and associated temperaments.
That lady's attitude sounds familiar. But if she's happy, and doesn't go out of her way to harm or bother others, it shouldn't really matter. I don't like annoying people, but as long as they're not trying to make the world a worse place, I just ignore them.
I think the extreme introvert and extreme extravert are less desireable than the more centered, but that is, of course, just my opinion. Many extreme extraverts seem quite miserable when they're alone, which is a bad way to live, whereas many extreme introverts seem quite miserable when they're with other people, which is a bad way to live.
-------------------- The spiritual revolution
starts inside.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: stereolab]
#10722514 - 07/22/09 08:45 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm fairly balanced as introverts go, but one cannot be an introvert and an extrovert - it doesn't work that way. I can extrovert socially with no problem BUT I do not choose to spend a lot of time with obvious extraverts because it is all about the outer world, first and foremost. I clearly have not been attracted to, nor am I attractive to the cheerleader type female. Intelligent, inner-directed females find me interesting and if interesting, the correlate is sexy. The feeling is mutual. For males, I enjoy creative, or imaginative people. INTPs, for example, are into what is possible more than what simply is. Hence paths and experiences which glimpse what Maslow called 'The Further Reaches of Human Nature' are infinitely more interesting than who made today's winning touchdown, who won on American Idol, or what drugs was Michael Jackson on.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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bradley
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In another thread you said that introverts have mystical experiences on psychedelics or with spiritual practice, while extroverts have ecstatic experiences. Can an ecstatic experience be shallow?
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Kickle
A Dying Hope


Registered: 12/16/06
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Markos, have you read Jung's Psychological Types? I can't help but get depressed by it. Jung just couldn't resist looking at the dark side of both types. It has made me feel as though there is no escaping these issues, because, as you've pointed out, you cannot be both introverted and extraverted. You are one or the other, and that is your fate.
I suppose I will have to read more of his work to look for a ray of sunshine. Certainly he himself must have gone 'wow, that's dark' after writing it, and created some sort of thought to offset it.
Anyways, thanks for the responses.
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bradley
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If I understand correctly, it seems a terrible thing to develop an extroverted personality. In that thread you also said that psychedelics can't change an extrovert to an introvert. Doesn't that suck?? I mean, honestly there must be some way for a purely materialistic person to add some depth to her life. People say vegetarian diets make them feel more introverted...
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Kickle
A Dying Hope


Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: stereolab]
#10724133 - 07/23/09 12:30 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Introverts do tend to be more self-centered, but this is not always the case. Extraverts can be quite self-centered too, treating reality more as a giant popularity contest with them at the center.
Indeed. Jung argues that for those on the farther ends of the spectrum, whom contain a near complete repression of subjective factors, an intense egoism will manifest from the unconscious.
Quote:
I have referred in detail to the ultimate consequences of this exaggeration of the extraverted attitude, viz. to the injurious suppression of the subjective factor. It is only, to be expected, therefore, that a psychic compensation of the conscious extraverted attitude will lay especial weight upon the subjective factor, i.e. we shall have to prove a strong egocentric tendency in the unconscious. Practical experience actually furnishes this proof.
Edited by Kickle (07/23/09 12:34 AM)
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Silversoul
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
#10724243 - 07/23/09 12:45 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm an INFP. I find that I can be very introverted when it comes to starting conversations and meeting new people, and almost pathologically so when it comes to making important phone calls or asking for help. But once I get comfortable with someone, I open up very rapidly, and can actually be quite a chatterbox. In High School, I was very anti-social with my fellow classmates, but always raised my hand in class.
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bradley
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Silversoul]
#10724288 - 07/23/09 12:51 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think an extravert can be shy too though.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope


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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: bradley]
#10724318 - 07/23/09 12:56 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Dunno about that -- an extravert is not concerned with the subjective, i.e. personal, experience. Shyness is a subjective experience, one which a true extravert will suppress.
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bradley
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
#10724334 - 07/23/09 12:58 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Oh. But all feelings are subjective, does an extrovert not feel?
I guess a 100% extrovert would tend not to notice any feelings.
Edited by bradley (07/23/09 12:59 AM)
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Kickle
A Dying Hope


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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: bradley]
#10724397 - 07/23/09 01:07 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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The feelings revolve around objects. Jung describes this better than I could ever hope to.
Quote:
Feeling in the extraverted attitude is orientated by objective data, i.e. the object is the indispensable determinant of the kind of feeling. It agrees with objective values. If one has always known feeling as a subjective fact, the nature of extraverted feeling will not immediately be understood, since it has freed itself as fully as possible from the subjective factor, and has, instead, become wholly subordinated to the influence of the object. Even where it seems to show a certain independence of the quality of the concrete object, it is none the less under the spell of traditional or generally valid standards of some sort. I may feel constrained, for instance, to use the predicate 'beautiful' or 'good', not because I find the object 'beautiful' or 'good' from my own subjective feeling, but because it is fitting and politic so to do; and fitting it certainly is, inasmuch as a contrary opinion would disturb the general feeling situation. A feeling-judgment such as this is in no way a simulation or a lie -- it is merely an act of accommodation. A picture, for instance, may be termed beautiful, because a picture that is hung in a drawing-room and bearing a well-known signature is generally assumed to be beautiful, or because the predicate 'ugly' might offend the family of the fortunate possessor, or because there is a benevolent intention on the part of the visitor to create a pleasant feeling-atmosphere, to which end everything must be felt as agreeable. Such feelings are governed by the standard of the objective determinants.
Edited by Kickle (07/23/09 01:11 AM)
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Etherealfeeling
invisible suture



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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: stereolab]
#10724410 - 07/23/09 01:10 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm an INFP as well.
--------------------
read expressions on a face I don't have
"He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts."
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bradley
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
#10724428 - 07/23/09 01:12 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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To me that means the same thing as tending not to notice feelings - only aware of externals - unaware of internals or consciousness.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope


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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: bradley]
#10724461 - 07/23/09 01:16 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes, and the introvert is equally as unaware of the external, and only aware of the internal. Neither one is consciously complete. But both the external and the internal exist. So where one side is neglected by consciousness, it must be taken care of by the unconscious.
edit: Extraverts also lose track of their health until it becomes objectively noticeable. I.e. problems start to manifest.
For this reason, Jung believes they are far more prone to addiction. They use a substance without regard for its effects, until the effects actually physically manifest. And by that point, well, it's a little late to BEGIN being concerned.
Edited by Kickle (07/23/09 01:24 AM)
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TheMushaman
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Re: The Extravert and the Introvert [Re: Kickle]
#10724733 - 07/23/09 02:03 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm ecstatic to see other Jungians on this forum. I am in the middle of The Undiscovered Self and will start Man and His Symbols. I need to pick that one up.
I love Jung's ability to perform analysis without the arrogance, pessimism, and declaration that his view is the only right perception. That is exactly what made Freud ended up so discredited and his ideas were eventually dis-proven by neuroscience. Jung on the other hand was more objective, and he tended to be more retrospective. Neuroscience cannot prove Jung wrong. In fact I know a few neuro-scientists who are Jungians.
Freud was much more subjective. He was arrogance and neurotic, maybe due to the fact it is suspected he was a cocaine addict, but largely because of his subjectivity. He always used his personal experiences and life events in his work. In The Interpretation of Dreams he constantly analyzes his own dreams and those close to him. He was very subjective, though his work in that book lead to the creation of the very field that proved him wrong. It almost paradoxical in a very comical way.
The very difference between those two minds is the very difference you speak of. Jung was an extrovert where as Freud was an introvert. I really wonder if his time with Freud lead to some of this work? It is much more intriguing and interesting to see the difference as you read each of their works.
Wonderful discussion.
-------------------- The messages and posts submitted by this user are purely hypothetical and intended for educational/entertainment purposes only. The above user does not advocate any illegal activities or substances. However, the user feels that proper education and awareness is needed in all aspects of life. This user is open to intelligent discourse and any variety of topics, but only for educational/research purposes and to expand the awareness of others. Freedom is a beautiful thing, but can only be obtained through elevated awareness. Simply put, free thy mind and thy ass shall surely follow.
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