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 Wiccan_Seeker
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 Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation?  [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#10554923 - 06/22/09 07:02 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Please see my "one in a million" example in the context of the universe as I see it.
I believe we will reincarnate in every possible guise, over and over again, that all these lives are one circle and that all of us are in fact incarnations of that One.
Everybody (which is One) is inevitably on their way to enlightenment, but after the very summit is reached we will let go of all that splendor again and voluntarily crawl through the mud to dance our part in the eternal dance again.
Most lives out there won't be the ones that give enlightenment. Like you say ShivasWisdom this isn't a thing you effect in a single lifetime. But since all lives are this one being which is the essence of you, there is nothing unfair about this.
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we all still have the possibility to reach enlightenment in this life.
Ah but you believe in possibility! You believe one can go either left or right. Me, I believe in a completely fixed destiny, where whether you will end up going left or right is predestined by the entirety of the universe.
I use possibility as a convenient working hypothesis, but my deeper self believes in absolute predestination.
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Poptart
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#10555009 - 06/22/09 07:18 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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So how do these enlightened ones drive in these altered/higher states of conciousness?
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shivas.wisdom
בּ וואלה
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: Poptart]
#10555019 - 06/22/09 07:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Wiccan, I think we are actually in agreement with eachother, just the personal nature of these experiences are leading us to describe it in different ways. I don't know, but I agree with a lot of what you just said.
And with regard to enlightened people driving?
Simply put, I don't think they would drive. But if for some reason they decided to, it wouldn't be like driving under the influence.
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druqs
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#10555037 - 06/22/09 07:27 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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no, not for me anyhow.
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Rocker232
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: Rocker232]
#10555118 - 06/22/09 07:44 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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That is a very poor example of jhana. Jhana is an extremely deep state of being which leaves the person unable to leave once they are in it. It is the definition of "leaving" this plane and going to another. It is an extreme state of bliss that is supposedly unrivaled. I can see with that definition how it could be misunderstood.
I would most likely compare it to say a level 5 trip, no control whatsoever, you leave when "it" decides you will.
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With Allure I Look to the Sky With Awakened Eyes
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Poptart
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#10556803 - 06/23/09 12:39 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Wiccan, I think we are actually in agreement with eachother, just the personal nature of these experiences are leading us to describe it in different ways. I don't know, but I agree with a lot of what you just said.
And with regard to enlightened people driving?
Simply put, I don't think they would drive. But if for some reason they decided to, it wouldn't be like driving under the influence.
I know I was just kidding.
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 Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: Poptart]
#10556821 - 06/23/09 12:42 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Meditation and psychedelics lead to two completely different mind states. Can't even compare the two and doing so does an injustice to both.
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Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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Poptart
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: druqs]
#10557002 - 06/23/09 01:25 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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So how many of you have actually reached these higher states?
Was it worth all the time and effort involved?
How long did it take you?
What about having experiences similar to a dmt trip? Is that possible?
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notapillow
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: Poptart]
#10557049 - 06/23/09 01:38 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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yes
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Jair
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: notapillow]
#10557148 - 06/23/09 02:05 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I haven't quite read everything said thus far and I am pretty high, but with that being said-
I have heard crazy stories of people going into intense states of meditation where they lose track of time and become frozen in a seated position for days straight. When they regain their grip on reality the blood rushes to their extremities and causes excruciating pain.
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OrganizedChaos
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: Jair]
#10557212 - 06/23/09 02:30 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not that I claim to be some fuckin' monk,
But meditation really does help center ones self, and can bring in a completely different perspective, including compassion, mindfulness, appreciate, love, the feeling of ecstasy and this is only my limited experience YMMV.
It has a similar feel to drugs, but it most certainly isn't.
Then again, our brain is the puppet master for the show, its all about the chemicals, and it really doesn't matter in the scheme of things how they get there (naturally, or induced).
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It is what it is, Let it be!
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TsalagiSpirit
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: OrganizedChaos]
#10557340 - 06/23/09 03:16 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I was doing my shamanic work long before I first started taking psychadellics and as far as I'm concerned you can get to the same place, people are just lazy. Now I'm not saying theres no difference between the two but people don't want to put dedication into anything anymore they want a short cut. Normally the biggest difference between the two is when I trance out is with psychadellics I feel I have a guardian (the plant spirit) watching me and guiding me to the visions I need to see. Without them I search until I find my destionation. I like to use psychs for healing or to learn, without I find that I feel indepandant and a stronger person afterwards than if I go with the plant/fungi.
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Caution: All information on this post or from this account are fictional and images are for entertainment purposes only. I do not condone the use, sale, manufacture or distributation of controlled substances in any country.
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whattheheck
Chief Love Lover
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Loc: Denver Colorado
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#10557451 - 06/23/09 04:10 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
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Monks have been doing it for 1000's of years, it is possible but it certainly takes a lot of dedication
No 
See this guy?
You will NEVER achieve that degree of muscularity. Not ever. You can eat the same foods, lift the same weights, shoot the same steroids but you will NEVER achieve that.
Genetically, he is one in a million. If you don't have those genetics, its simply not possible. You hit a plateau you cant get over, or your joints start to wear out, or you rip a weak tendon or bloodvessel and thats IT for you.
Its the same with meditation. Most people wont even consider meditation. Most people who do, will give up after some time. Of the people who stick with the program, most will NEVER achieve the deep profundity sought after.
Just like that bodybuilder is one in a million, people who have deep profound meditation results are one in a million - and you can bet that it takes genetics AND environment AND making the right clicks to "get there".
That "dedication" alone can do it is one of the cruelest fallacies. 999,999 out of that million will never reach "enlightenment" in this lifetime no matter what they do.
Most of those monks had meaningful interesting lives - but so can a goatherd, and he produces cheese and meat to feed the village with, to boot.
AWESOME analogy Wiccian. That's Ronnie Coleman isn't it?
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A society whose whole idea is to eliminate suffering and bring it's members the greatest amount of comfort and pleasure is doomed to be destroyed -Thomas Merton
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Tranquil Toad
A.I. Living Inside the Internet
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: whattheheck]
#10557752 - 06/23/09 06:56 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think it's silly to get too worked up about trying to achieve enlightenment. Do you even know what it is that you spend your whole life meditating in hopes of achieving? Just some lofty far off goal that sounds like it must be awesome? If you truly believe that we are all reflections of one source, and there is no real "you" at all, then there is nothing to be done. Instead of posting some far off goal called enlightenment, just be here now. Chill.
I think having any goal at all detracts from the whole point of meditation. Its like a dance: you don't dance to come to a finish, you do it because it feels good.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: whattheheck]
#10557764 - 06/23/09 07:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:
Monks have been doing it for 1000's of years, it is possible but it certainly takes a lot of dedication
No
See this guy?
You will NEVER achieve that degree of muscularity. Not ever. You can eat the same foods, lift the same weights, shoot the same steroids but you will NEVER achieve that.
Genetically, he is one in a million. If you don't have those genetics, its simply not possible. You hit a plateau you cant get over, or your joints start to wear out, or you rip a weak tendon or bloodvessel and thats IT for you.
Its the same with meditation. Most people wont even consider meditation. Most people who do, will give up after some time. Of the people who stick with the program, most will NEVER achieve the deep profundity sought after.
Just like that bodybuilder is one in a million, people who have deep profound meditation results are one in a million - and you can bet that it takes genetics AND environment AND making the right clicks to "get there".
That "dedication" alone can do it is one of the cruelest fallacies. 999,999 out of that million will never reach "enlightenment" in this lifetime no matter what they do.
Most of those monks had meaningful interesting lives - but so can a goatherd, and he produces cheese and meat to feed the village with, to boot.
Fuck this illusion of genetic predetermination. Be all you can be; if you don't try your hardest you won't know if you've lived up to your fullest potential.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Frost
Transcension Hypothesis
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#10557775 - 06/23/09 07:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
I would disagree. Dropping a tab of cid will appear to have more immediate, intense effects. The meditation experience is not like this, it is a separate state of altered consciousness. Meditation should not be expected to give a psychedelic type state of mind. If you are going into meditations with preconceptions it will affect the process.
Meditation can be incredibly intense though, just takes a long time and work. How long have you been practising meditation? It will probably take several years before you start to really get deep within yourself. But the longer your practise, the easier it will be to get into this deep state. At these deep levels, loss of ego is very common and an 'emptiness' which is really 'everything' is encountered. CEV are common at this point too, ime portraying the chakras, hindu/buddhist gods, the spiritual body, as well as insights into the subtle nature of our world.
These experiences still do not resemble a psychedelic state though. It is an altered state all to its own. Honestly, I would recommend combining them all, as their are many synergies present when you begin to combine. If you feel meditating while high helps, do it. Meditation on psychedelics is VERY powerful. Two other techniques I know of to induce altered conciousness are yoga, and trance dancing/drumming.
Don't think one altered state has to be the same as another. There is variety in all parts of life. They all have certain strengths and weaknesses, but as I said, combine them all for a most intense effect.
I can just feel the sincerity in your post.
Thanks for sharing that little bit of wisdom, good sir.
I hope to one day have the patience and learn meditation.
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Stars in the Universe far outnumber all sounds & words ever uttered by all humans who ever lived. -Neil deGrasse Tyson
Edited by Frost (06/23/09 07:29 AM)
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Frost
Transcension Hypothesis
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: Frost]
#10557792 - 06/23/09 07:31 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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... and Wiccan_Seeker is on point as usual. You are a living legend sir.
I agree with most everything you say...except for maybe the part about Determinism. Maybe it is denial, because I kind of don't want to believe it, but I stand on the fence for now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
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Stars in the Universe far outnumber all sounds & words ever uttered by all humans who ever lived. -Neil deGrasse Tyson
Edited by Frost (06/23/09 07:32 AM)
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Wiccan_Seeker
gold foil hat admin
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: Poptart]
#10557928 - 06/23/09 09:06 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Aye, Ronnie Coleman - the biggest bodybuilder I know of that has his muscles esthetically proportionate rather than turning into an Akira-esque amorphous blob. The parallel holds true. Whether you are developing your body or mind, both mostly follow the same rules. In the same analogy you can equate psychedelics and steroids. Both can greatly assist your development, provided you actually get with the program and stick with it.
You can take roids or psychedelics and sit on your ass watching a movie. In both cases you and the drug won't even come close to living up on their potential. You got to work with em - and happen to have a high potential of possibilities. I do believe that if you have Person A who uses Meditation B, that generally he will get further if psychedelics are wisely incorporated into the program than without them - just like roids do for bodybuilding. "Wisely incorporated" might mean a glass of ayahuasca every two weeks or a single LSD trip in a lifetime, and anything in between. Like with the roids, it is NOT the case that more is better. OPTIMAL is better - anything less or more than optimal is a disadvantage.
Quote:
So how many of you have actually reached these higher states?
Was it worth all the time and effort involved?
How long did it take you?
What about having experiences similar to a dmt trip? Is that possible?
I reach considerably altered states in meditation routinely. Was it worth the time and effort? If it takes significant effort, you're doing it wrong. Try to take a significant effort to fall asleep and tell me in the morning how that went. Meditation isnt sleeping, but with that too, effort and strain are counterproductive and only lead to frustration.
How long did it take me? I'd say at least 10 years before I got anywhere deep. It was interesting all the while though - you shouldnt want all at once and do NOT postpone satisfaction until sparks come out of your ears.
Some people can have meditative effects comparative to DMT. DMT has much in common with a Kundalini experience, and you can meditate specifically to get there. Falun Gung does. But! Wiki "Kundalini". Kundalini experiences can be associated with really intense mental disturbances and physical symptoms that can wreck your life for years on end. I would NEVER try to force Kundalini experiences through goal directed meditation. Hell no. If it doesnt come naturally in this life, I sure won't seek it out.
One of the things interesting me now is a form of Advaita Vedanta
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shivas.wisdom
בּ וואלה
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: Wiccan_Seeker]
#10558885 - 06/23/09 01:24 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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So than wiccan_seeker, what are your thoughts on the necessity of an accomplished guru, to guide you through the process? Especially in light of what was said about truly enlightened individuals being extremely rare.
That is one of the facets that I have always had a hard time accepting. I don't feel a guru is necessary, nor even a possibilty, for most people.
Or perhaps I do have a guru, from the many plants and substances around me.
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Wiccan_Seeker
gold foil hat admin
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Re: Can you honestly say it's possible to reach the same states with meditation? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#10558988 - 06/23/09 01:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I believe an accomplished guru can be very helpful, or very detrimental. I consider it one of the intrusions of earthly institutions on spirituality, just like Catholic babies need to be baptized quickly or they will go to hell.
Who decides who is an accomplished guru?
I feel people should primarily follow their own path and be especially distrustful of books. Books can only approach you through the mind. Spiritual enlightenment comes from beyond, certainly not through grasping concepts.
As I see it, you should do your own thinking and let nothing come between you and the Cosmos. Direct experience and thought should guide you.
If someone is of sound mindset I much rather see them follow a Mushroom or a Cactus, than some selfproclaimed guru or even worse, a book written by one. Words only go so far, and few gurus outside of anime can zap you with their aura to make you "see the light".
For yourself, theres nothing more sacred than your own path. A guru needs to be way above average to be of any help, and not a hindrance, to someone who's path is radically different than their own.
If you scrutinize the Bible, it becomes clear from Jesus' own utterances that not even His disciples truly "got it".
Follow your own path, be your own disciple and listen to the Universe directly. Mushrooms decrease the hold your conditioning has on you, so they can help you get ahead.
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