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 thedudenj
Man of the Woods
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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great scott
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"You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Chespirito
Stranger
 
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,258
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 Re: wine tomato sauce  [Re: thedudenj]
#10323559 - 05/11/09 07:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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ha yea that's the great part about the internet, meaningless arguments
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 eastuvdariver
Stranger thanwho?
Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 201
Loc: birdhouse in your soul
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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whoa, i didn't mean for this to get out of hand.
i think the bottom line is if it tastes good to you and the other people who are eating it than it really doesn't matter.
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DISCLAIMER: anything posted by ME are strictly the opinions of ME and does not reflect the opinions of friends,family,affiliates,etc. of ME. the opinions of ME may not apply to you, it may not apply to ME next week or tommorow as the opinions of ME reserve the right to be changed at anytime.
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soochi
Chef
Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,351
Loc: The Richest County
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I don't see how regulating the way a certain foodstuff is made is absurd. Again, I believe if we had something like that here it would greatly improve the quality of the average products we purchase here, as well as adding a source of pride that certain items can only be made here in the US. (Like Jack Daniels)
You really have to look in to what and why AOC and DOC even exists, primarily because it would be very easy for anyone to make hooch in their backyard and sell it as "Cognac" AOC's and DOC's are there as a method of consumer protection, as well as ensuring that those products are consistent and live up to the standards people all over the world have come to expect from it. That's absurd? what do you want then? Chinese-style regulation? inconsistent products? lead infested brandy bottles? These designations are for agricultural products only not recipes for a dish.
Some products like Rouqefort Cheese for example only get's it's distinct flavor from cave aging (specifically chalk caves) in and around the town of Roquefort. Sure you can try to make Roquefort without that, and many do, but the flavor is certainly not the same and those products cannot command the same price, and without an AOC designation that would mean anyone could make it anywhere with whatever milk and process they please. So that's something your against? I don't get it...
Corporate conglomerates already do have control of a lot of the production of these items. LVMH (Louis Vuitton Moet Hennesy) for example has the biggest stranglehold on alcohol production and sales in Europe; but even these big corporations realize they cannot adulterate their products because the things they are selling have heritage that dates back further than the founding of this country, as well as adding to the prestige and price. and making these products any other way would be a detriment to the quality of the product. Holding back big conglomerates is not the purpose of AOC/DOC designations, again it's to ensure quality,product consistency and to maintain the heritage of said region and protect the consumer from sub par products that could be sourced outside of the region or country (wouldn't that be nice to have here? or do you like the idea of drinking melamine tainted milk?)
Bolognese sauce isn't the same as Cognac, I've already stated their aren't any laws governing recipes, only declarations (meaning people don't have to abide by it, they don't sign packs or any of what you mentioned) but again I think the whole point of having things down as official is to simply preserve the authenticity and originality of the region in question (similar to your French language argument)It isn't a law for people to follow. Bolognese sauce was created and popularized in Bologna, does that mean people in Naples can't make it the way they want? Of course not. Please read my statements clearly, I've repeated myself more than once. I'm neither defending or praising the Italians for making certain recipes official. I'm just stating that there is in fact an official recipe that does exist (something you said does not)What purpose does that serve? I don't know, ask the Italian people, they approved it.
and by the way our government exerts heavy influence in all sorts of cultural endeavors in this country all the time. It's called the National Endowment for the Arts, look it up then tell me if the government in fact has "little" control over cultural issues. You'll find it's quite the opposite. I for one am for the abolishment of the NEA along with some members of Congress. I'm sure if you read into them you would agree.
A lot of people cared enough about the subject of English as the official language to voice concerns over what that would mean, even if you don't. What goal would that achieve? maybe a rise in minimum wage? Cultural acceptance and respect for the country that provides for you? Overall better communication and understanding between our citizens? I mean unlike every other country, the US is the only one where you're not expected to know the language of the land. I think that's a load of crap, if I lived in France I would be expected to know French right?? So when I get asked by a newly hired dishwasher "do you speak Spanish?" I say to him "I don't have to"
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Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
Edited by soochi (05/11/09 09:26 PM)
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Chespirito
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,258
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Re: wine tomato sauce [Re: soochi]
#10328888 - 05/12/09 09:18 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
soochi said:
You really have to look in to what and why AOC and DOC even exists, primarily because it would be very easy for anyone to make hooch in their backyard and sell it as "Cognac" AOC's and DOC's are there as a method of consumer protection, as well as ensuring that those products are consistent and live up to the standards people all over the world have come to expect from it. That's absurd? what do you want then? Chinese-style regulation? inconsistent products? lead infested brandy bottles? These designations are for agricultural products only not recipes for a dish.
I think that every company that wants to make 'Cognac' should be able to. Consumers will get to choose whether they want a good Cognac, or a shitty cheap one. You go into a store, and you will see Cognac of a poor quality for quite cheap, or Cognac of a good quality for more money. This is how capitalism works. The government would still regulate that the products are safe, Ive made no mention of this and it is amusing that you would introduce some kind of 'slippery slope argument' where we get infested brandy bottles. The Japanese already make Scotch, and you know what? Its pretty damn good. They cant call it Scotch however, but its Scotch, we all know its Scotch but this is just further proof of the bizarre reality we live in where words are for some reason sacred.
Quote:
soochi said: Some products like Rouqefort Cheese for example only get's it's distinct flavor from cave aging (specifically chalk caves) in and around the town of Roquefort. Sure you can try to make Roquefort without that, and many do, but the flavor is certainly not the same and those products cannot command the same price, and without an AOC designation that would mean anyone could make it anywhere with whatever milk and process they please. So that's something your against? I don't get it...
The Roquefort made in the special caves can advertise as such, the ones that aren't cannot advertise that. There are truth in advertising laws. In the end I'm fairly sure other caves would suit this cheese quite nicely. I doubt these are the only caves in the world able to produce this cheese.
Quote:
soochi said:
Bolognese sauce isn't the same as Cognac, I've already stated their aren't any laws governing recipes, only declarations (meaning people don't have to abide by it, they don't sign packs or any of what you mentioned) but again I think the whole point of having things down as official is to simply preserve the authenticity and originality of the region in question (similar to your French language argument)It isn't a law for people to follow. Bolognese sauce was created and popularized in Bologna, does that mean people in Naples can't make it the way they want? Of course not. Please read my statements clearly, I've repeated myself more than once. I'm neither defending or praising the Italians for making certain recipes official. I'm just stating that there is in fact an official recipe that does exist (something you said does not)What purpose does that serve? I don't know, ask the Italian people, they approved it.
Yes I was merely saying that the government claiming they have the official recipe is meaningless. What gives them the authority to have an official recipe more so than myself? Where does this right derive from?
Quote:
soochi said:
A lot of people cared enough about the subject of English as the official language to voice concerns over what that would mean, even if you don't. What goal would that achieve? maybe a rise in minimum wage? Cultural acceptance and respect for the country that provides for you? Overall better communication and understanding between our citizens? I mean unlike every other country, the US is the only one where you're not expected to know the language of the land. I think that's a load of crap, if I lived in France I would be expected to know French right?? So when I get asked by a newly hired dishwasher "do you speak Spanish?" I say to him "I don't have to"
False, there are many countries that have citizens that actively engage in multiple languages. There are countries with countless official languages that get along just fine. Do you think its fair to not put out government documentation in more than one language? You do realize that this entire country is basically an immigrant country? I just do not see why it is in the United States best interest to exclude languages and the interaction of groups of people.
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soochi
Chef
Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,351
Loc: The Richest County
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Cognac is a region in France, so is Champagne and Roquefort. Aoc/Doc guarantee the authenticity of the origin of the product as well. So any company can't just make Cognac. If it's not made in Cognac and follow AOC rules for production and aging then it is just plain brandy. They can still follow the methods, age in Limousine oak barrels, the whole nine, but in the end if it's not made in Cognac it can't be called Cognac. Again it's a region of origin as well as a product. Many companies already do make "Cognac-style" brandy. Just like "Methode Champagne" sparkling wine.
I don't think you still understand why these regulations are in place. The lengths these regions go to make a distinct product to carry that regions name is staggering, and in some cases certain ingredients or conditions are present no where else. So why wouldn't they want to protect that?
It's like buying a knockoff Chanel bag. Sure it may look and feel like a Chanel bag, but ultimately does it carry the mark of quality and hand craftsmanship? That is the reason these items can command a price, not just for the label. If Chanel starting making bags in China do you think people would still want to fork over $1200 dollars for it? If Harley Davidson bikes were assembled in India, do you think consumers would view that brand as highly as they do? and happily spend 30k on a bike? They're buying heritage too. That's something you can't just can attain by duplication.
The type of bacteria/mold that gives Roquefort its distinct flavor is found only in those caves around Roquefort(also, the breeds or sheep is distinct to the Roquefort region, what the animals eat is also dictated by AOC since that will ultimately affect the taste of the cheese)
From Wikipedia:
"In 1925, the cheese was the recipient of France's first Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée when regulations controlling its production and naming were first defined. In 1961, in a landmark ruling that removed imitation, the Tribunal de Grande Instance at Millau decreed that although the method for the manufacture of the cheese could be followed across the south of France, only those whose ripening occurred in the natural caves of Mont Combalou in Roquefort-sur-Soulzon were permitted to bear the name Roquefort."
I don't understand your skepticism to why these people are so fussy? and why these production methods seem Byzantine to you. Europeans in general are very passionate about their food, and it shows in the quality of the things you buy there. And people all over the world have no problem spending more for their products, no matter what you talk about (food,clothes,cars,etc.)
Obviously there is a meaning to the Italians for having an official recipe for anything, even if people don't abide by it every time. Why would they even bother then? Why would their citizens vote to have those declarations present in public spaces? Again, that's something you'll have to ask a red blooded Italian. I think it just boils down to being passionate and proud of your country,history and region? What's meaningless about that?
You said you've been to France? Every time I'm there and fail to even try and speak a little French to someone they're quick to snub you. They print a lot of documents there in multiple languages but when it comes to daily interaction your expected to know the language.
Go back to my dishwasher analogy, do you really think if you plopped an average hispanic dishwasher in France that he wouldn't come around and learn French as fast as he could? Oh, but here it's fine to not be able to communicate to the predominantly English speaking population? I tell my dishwashers and cleaning staff all the time to try and pick up English since this would mean a less likely chance of them being exploited because of their lack of education as well as making them more competitive in the job market. I have a different stance on this subject than most minorities because I interact with so many Hispanics and other races in the restaurant industry. If I could adapt to this culture and be successful why can't they?
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Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
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Chespirito
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,258
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Re: wine tomato sauce [Re: soochi]
#10329819 - 05/12/09 11:45 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well I think its clear we just have a fundamental disagreement on how culture should evolve. You want to keep some things as they have been, whereas I am for everything evolving organically.
As for living in France, honestly I never noticed the standard line about French people not putting up with non-French speakers. The only people I saw that from were the older generation. Hell I got laid and I could never even hold a conversation with her 
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soochi
Chef
Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,351
Loc: The Richest County
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I think culture will always evolve organically(young people growing up and not adhering to the outdated thinking of their parents). But from time to time if we don't give it a swift kick in the ass it won't budge.
If the civil rights movement never came about in the 50's/60's do you think Obama would be our president today? It took government action to ensure the rights of all citizens were intact and equally recognized. If we had left it to the population (especially at the time) to decree(vote) when they wanted an end to segregation we would no doubt still be that way, or at the very least the civil rights movement would have been delayed to perhaps as recently as the 80's or 90's. Just the thought of that is frightening.
I'm actually quite a progressive person especially when it comes to social issues. There are very few things I would want to remain the same in this country(especially anything concerning our food supply) If anything we are lagging behind in progressive stances on socioeconomic issues compared to the rest of the world. Like why are gay rights even a topic here? They've legalized marriage in the UK and many other countries years ago. Have you see the Supreme Court bench? it looks like a meeting of the geriatrics club of america. These are the people that dictate our social policies and laws? This too is frightening.
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Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
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Chespirito
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,258
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Re: wine tomato sauce [Re: soochi]
#10330787 - 05/13/09 04:22 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I must say I think you are extending our argument to places it has no relevance in. I would agree with what you said in principle however. The UK is not a country I envy in most regards, though yes they do get a few things right.
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soochi
Chef
Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,351
Loc: The Richest County
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My point is we can't always trust things will just evolve organically. I for one discount the Reaganesque notion that the government is always the problem. To me people are the problem. Ill-informed, uneducated, ignorant people that make up a bulk of the American population. Hence my reference to our current backwards thinking on social and economic issues.
and before anyone decides to bash me for this comment, all I can say is that my father served 25 years in the United States Air Force with tours in the Persian Gulf during Desert Storm. My mother worked in the National Naval Medical Center (otherwise known as the "President's Hospital") and the National Institutes of Health helping doctors with cancer research.
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Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
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