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OfflineUnderhillmaster
The LemonProphet

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 414
Loc: Parts Unknown
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
The Lemon Experience... [now a community experiment - please contribute] * 17
    #4714757 - 09/26/05 02:21 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

To tell you the truth, I am not sure I should even be telling anybody this, but I feel like I have to. If you were to discover this on your own and try it, without it a warning, it could be bad. I am in my 30s and have done psychedelics since my teens. I have done shrooms, acid, X, and DXM in my life. I have had memorable experiences like anyone who trips, and I know I have pushed the limits of common sense in some of my dosage. Regardless of that, I have only reached a level 5 trip on DXM and non of the other psychedelics(even a combination of 2 or more at once lol). That was until last night.

I, like most people who read these forums, have had a long interest in possible ways to increase potency. Since I started growing shrooms myself about a year ago, I have put a little more time into research. I read a post about using cranberry juice for extraction and after talking about it with a friend, we came up with the idea of powdering your shrooms and combining with about 2 oz. of cranberry juice and slamming it like a shot. So I tried it, and was amazed at how fast it hit, how intense it was, and what was really going on. I posted a post here on the forums asking for anyone that may have had a similar experience or a possible explanation. I let people reply for a couple weeks and I tried a control experiment. I know from past experience, that chewing a drug up, or powdering and combining with water usually makes it hit faster and be more intense and shorter duration. I took the same dose as I took with the cranberry(2+ grams). The trip was nowhere near the intensity of the cranberry method. I checked back in with the forum and someone had came up with a possible explanation. The pH of cranberry is under 4. Making it one of the most acidic drinks you can get. That may be why it is used in extraction methods. It was also mentioned that the only more acidic juice you can find would be straight lemon or lime juice, both of which have a pH under 2(extremely acidic). I mentioned in the forum that I would try lemon/lime for my next trip.

Fast forward six months later. I finally was able to try it last night. During the six months, many of my friends have tried the cranberry method, and each one to a one has said that it is unlike anything else. It is hard to explain how much stronger the trip is. It is so strong that you need to be careful with it, i.e, if you normally take 3 grams for a heavy trip, only put 1 or 2 in your cranberry juice. Well, after trying lemon/lime, I think I may have opened Pandoras box!!!!!!!!

I squeezed 2 lemons and a lime into a cup, combined 2g of shroom powder, and slammed it like a shot. It took about 10 minutes for me to start feeling the effects. 30 minutes in and I was full blown level 5 and higher than I had ever been. My thoughts were coming so fast at this point that I could barely keep up. The bad part was, well basically, I kept getting higher and higher. I could literally feel all the effects continuing to increase at an alarming rate. I actually lost motor control of my limbs and was stuck writhing on the floor stuck in the adventure I created for myself lol. My thoughts eventually were going so fast that I broke down and basically mumbled "Help" and "Please Stop" for what turned out to be 3 hours. Then INCREDIBLY lol, within a 5 minute period my thoughts totally went back to normal. I mean i was not even tripping at all anymore, but I was in a tremendous amount of shock. I stood up and walked to the clock to find that it wasnt even 4 hrs from when I drank it. I think this could be THE way to do shrooms, as it seems to magnify the effects to literally a factor of 10, but it seems extremely dangerous also. I would like to experiment with it more with some smaller doses, but frankly, I don't feel like tripping for quite a while after last night. So if anyone wants to try it in a responsible setting, and takes EXTREME CAUTION, and will contribute some research to this discovery, it would be appreciated. Since what is happening here is not fully understood, please be CAREFUL. I am not joking. Please, constructive replies only. This could be the beginning to a new world of psychedelics.

Quote:

MOD EDIT: The procedure has been tested several times in different varieties now and seems to indeed cause *strong* potentiation in some cases, 1.5-5x stronger effects being mentioned. If you are an experienced tripper, please take part in this experiment and report in this thread. Things to report are:
.
# What liquid are you using?
.
# How much liquid did you drink the powder with? (oz)
.
# Time to "first alert" (aka, "whoa, something's definitely going to happen")
.
# Time to onset of visual disturbance
.
# Time to peak (rough estimate)
.
# Time to first sign of diminishing effects
.
# Time to baseline (indiscernable effects)

Please also note if you take any other substances, specifically marijuana and whether or not your stomach is empty- This could pose a significant confound. [snyder]
.
Please be warned that although there seems no reason for bodily concern you might end up tripping much harder than you ever did on a similar amount. If you want to take part in this experiment make sure to note all variables that you feel might be important. Theory is less important than systematic observations and independent verification at this point.





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If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

Edited by Underhillmaster (01/10/06 10:18 PM)

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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
Male

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,026
Loc: the sky
Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4714783 - 09/26/05 02:25 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Fascinating!


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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OfflineMrKrinkle
Stranger

Registered: 08/23/05
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #4714949 - 09/26/05 02:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

i think im going to try that. It sounds interesting


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"the air is gettng slippery..."

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InvisibleTrippingDuality
cult classic
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Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 805
Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #4714969 - 09/26/05 03:00 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

sounds like something i'd like to try! i'll keep my eye on this thread.


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turn off your mind relax and float downstream

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Offlinedeficitism
woo woo

Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 273
Loc: Fairfax VA
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: TrippingDuality]
    #4715001 - 09/26/05 03:06 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Friday it is!


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"Someday after mastering the winds, waves, tides and gravity, we shall harness the energies of love, and then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will discover fire." -Teilhard de Chardin

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OfflineLimelight
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: TrippingDuality] * 1
    #4715049 - 09/26/05 03:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Try mixing it with battery acid next time :smile:

Seriously though, that's a crazy intense experiemnt. Good job on finding that out :sun:


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"The worst mistake that you can make is to think you're alive when really you're asleep in life's waiting room."

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OfflineLimelight
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Limelight]
    #4715052 - 09/26/05 03:20 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Perhaps this is why orange juice intensifies effects..? Maybe it's not the vitamin c or whatever, but the acidity.


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"The worst mistake that you can make is to think you're alive when really you're asleep in life's waiting room."

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InvisibleShnezbit
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: deficitism]
    #4715073 - 09/26/05 03:24 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

interesting. be sure and report back, whatever the outcome.

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OfflineMuppetz
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: deficitism]
    #4715074 - 09/26/05 03:25 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Think I will try the cranberry juice nextime, just a 1/16th though. Something small to start.

Edited by Muppetz (09/26/05 03:26 PM)

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Invisiblerod
Ψ
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Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 3,727
Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4715095 - 09/26/05 03:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I,ve been chopping mine up and adding to juice for a long time,
I,m going to get some pompom cranbury juice for my next time I think :thumbup:

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Offlineiateshaggy
i haxor 360s
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Registered: 05/20/05
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: rod]
    #4715119 - 09/26/05 03:32 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

dambit, why do people come up with this shit after my days off.


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You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true.  I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.


I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.

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OfflineShroomArtist84
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Registered: 08/09/05
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: rod]
    #4715153 - 09/26/05 03:37 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

very very nice.
i will defiently try in the near future.
favorite this one :wink:


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No matter what I say and no matter what I write here.

I'm sick of always looking at this page with a blank stare.

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4715209 - 09/26/05 03:44 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...f737f989815e16e

Hey thats an improvement on my idea, not tried it tho!


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InvisibleMezcal
Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 1,980
Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4715260 - 09/26/05 03:56 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Your description of the subjective effects sounds very strong, but I'd like to point something out:

When you take the mushrooms by eating them, they go into your stomach. A vanishingly small amount of the material is absorbed in your esophagus and only a little in your mouth. As it enters your stomach, it is submerged in ~1 pH gastric acid. Lemon juice has a pH of ~2.3, over 10 times weaker than the gastric acid. I bet if you did a randomized sample you would find that the determining factors in 'potency' are:

1. amount of psilocybin & psilocin in the sample (principal factor)
2. how finely the mushrooms are ground (affecting speed of absorption and thus distribution of intensity of the effects)
3. how much liquid is consumed with the sample (affecting speed of absorption and thus distribution of intensity of the effects)

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InvisibleStickyWater
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Registered: 06/09/05
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4715360 - 09/26/05 04:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Was the second test you did using mushrooms from the same batch?
If not then the lemon juice may not have anything to do with it, it could have been merely very potent shrooms.

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OfflineUnderhillmaster
The LemonProphet

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 414
Loc: Parts Unknown
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: StickyWater]
    #4715437 - 09/26/05 04:34 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

The shrooms were the same strain, but the not the same batch. Grown on rye spawned to poo by myself, the grow method was the same on both batches. I have taken shrooms over 100 times in my life over the course of almost 20 years, and I have never experienced anything remotely like this. It was very humbling. I am not sure what is exactly going on with it, but I know something is happening. If you try it once, please put in a reply relating the experience. But please be careful, because I don't really know how to explain how much more intense it was than any other trip I have ever had. I expected a stronger than normal trip, and I was totally unprepared for how strong it actually was. It may be something you have to do to believe lol.


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If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

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OfflineKonnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4715456 - 09/26/05 04:36 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Sure, stomach acid is strong, but it only starts to work after the substrate gets to it. AND if the substrate is coming directly from the mouth, instead of soaking up all the acid it's allready saturated with saliva, which slows the process a little as the acid has to diffuse into the saliva present in the substrate.

if you immerse a powder of cubes in cranberry juice, the dry shroom dust absorbs something that is acidic. Meaning it is begun to be digested prior to ingestion and is allready saturated with acid. Also, I've not known people to be able to choke down a dry powder of shrooms, but if they did the mere surface area would help. The cranberry juice at the least would make it a lot easier to slam down, and cranberry juice is a potent flavor, so it would help make it less unpleasant.


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I find your lack of faith disturbing

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OfflineMighty Bop
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Konnrade]
    #4715526 - 09/26/05 04:49 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

It seems like any kind of acid would hinder the effects of shrooms. Don't acids break down/destroy things (ie. psilocybin/psilocin)? I still drink OJ with my shrooms however. At first I did it because I heard it intensifies the effects. But since then, I never came across any info that proves this is the case, but I still drink OJ because it masks the taste :smile:


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I got a buddy with United Fruit, get ya started...

Trade List

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OfflineTyrone_C
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4715532 - 09/26/05 04:50 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds really interesting! I don't think I'm quite ready to try that yet as I am inexperienced, but I'll keep it in mind for later. Thanks!

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OfflineXUL
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4715796 - 09/26/05 05:37 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

That really makes me think you know. Your right, this could change how we eat shroomz. Hell with enough research, etc.. you could create a pill filled with a high acid and shroom powder that you swollow and sends you twirling on a hard trip.


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TRUMP 2020

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OfflineLysergic_Milkman
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: XUL]
    #4715881 - 09/26/05 05:49 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Prime discovery; 5 shrooms for you!  :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:

If the acidity helps break down/digest the shrooms, then why not leave the powder in the lemon juice for a while and stir it up good before shooting it?
This would [supposedly) make a complete solution.
If i get some cubes from the field tomorrow (and i probably will) then you can expect that i'll elaborate on this theory very soon.

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OfflineUnderhillmaster
The LemonProphet

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 414
Loc: Parts Unknown
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
    #4715942 - 09/26/05 05:57 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know about a pill, but the juice from 2 lemons and a lime was barely over an ounce of fluid. I have a huge aversion to the taste and smell of shrooms from doing them so many times over the years, and this way was hard to beat. It was no worse than taking a single shot of whiskey. And it was so potent that I realized I had done a bad thing probably, and should have tried it with a single gram. I can't express how much stronger it is, I can only hope that some more people try it responsibly, and can relate their experiences.


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If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

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Offlinestemmer
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4716040 - 09/26/05 06:11 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Id love to hear about other peoples experiments with the cranberry or lemon lime combos. I wouldnt be surprized if it works that well for other people. I wonder sometimes with recommendations like these if the shroomer isnt just becoming more capable of understandind and seeing the drugs full effects on low-mid doses naturaly. Im shure this concoctions effects are true to some extent. Id be very interested to hear more about it. Maybee do a control experiment and try one of those 1-2 gram doses without useing the lemon/lime method, to find out the degree to which you are really being effected by just the shrooms themselves. I find that the more body and mind learns about the mushrooms full spectrum of effects, the harder we trip the next time.

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OfflineWillieTomg
If stemmer votedme 1, I'm doingSOMETHING right!
Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 425
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mighty Bop]
    #4716458 - 09/26/05 07:19 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mighty Bop said:
It seems like any kind of acid would hinder the effects of shrooms. Don't acids break down/destroy things (ie. psilocybin/psilocin)? I still drink OJ with my shrooms however. At first I did it because I heard it intensifies the effects. But since then, I never came across any info that proves this is the case, but I still drink OJ because it masks the taste :smile:




This is why I'm going to have to chalk this one up to placebo effect.  There's just no scientific reason why ANY juice would increase effects at all.  I'd test this a few times.


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Battles of wits are impossible with the unarmed.

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
The Heaviest OfThem All
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4716470 - 09/26/05 07:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Fuck I wish I had some mushrooms right now.

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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,377
Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: stemmer]
    #4716479 - 09/26/05 07:23 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting report.

However, how does one account for the fact that the amount of psilocybin/psilocyin ingested should be the same?

Even if it were absorbed faster one would think that the maximal amount of psilocin in the blood stream ("peak plasma level") wouldn't differ very much (due to the fact that the metabolism of the drug now becomes the slowest or rate limiting step).


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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InvisibleStickyWater
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4716494 - 09/26/05 07:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Would the acid in the cranberry juice not be simply acting as a catalyst speeding up the rate at which the psilocybin is absorbed into the bloodstream? How long did your trip last? Did you notice any difference in length between cranberry juice and lemon juice?

Sorry if I missed those details in your original post, but I'm tempted to think that you merely found a way to get an all at once rush from your mushies, rather than the steady climb people usualy experience...

I guess it's lke the Aquavite of mushrooms  :laugh:
(drink it a little too fast and you'll see what I'm talking about)

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OfflineLysergic_Milkman
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: StickyWater] * 1
    #4716619 - 09/26/05 07:55 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Catalyst! that's it! Thank's for the idea, StickyWater.  :wink: :thumbup:
If other acidic drinks don't do it, then maybe it's an enzyme specific to cranberries (and/or lemon & lime) that speeds up the process, not the acidity. This (and the saliva theory) would explain why stomach acids don't speed the process.
I think we're on to something...

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InvisibleStickyWater
Stranger
Registered: 06/09/05
Posts: 1,680
Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
    #4716704 - 09/26/05 08:13 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Perhaps try this with vinegar, see if the same effects are achieved?

Anyone willing to down a shot of vinegar and shrooms in the name of science  :wink:

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OfflineLysergic_Milkman
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: StickyWater]
    #4716753 - 09/26/05 08:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Not me!
But that's a great idea for a control test.
Since vinegar doesn't contain any enzymes (naturally), then that could prove or disprove the acidity theory.

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InvisibleStickyWater
Stranger
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
    #4716766 - 09/26/05 08:25 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I'd do it but you'll have to wait about a year (I have no plans to trip anytime soon). But if the question is still remains, I'll go for it.

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OfflineUnderhillmaster
The LemonProphet

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 414
Loc: Parts Unknown
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
    #4716793 - 09/26/05 08:31 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I mentioned in the original post, but the entire trip was over in under 4hrs. This was a 2+gram dose. The same size dose on cranberry of same strain would usually last about 6 hours with with a peak at about 4 hrs in. It also only takes about 10-15 minutes to start hitting with cranberry. The same 2+ gram dose just eaten usually lasts over 8hrs from ingestion, but takes an hr to hit sometimes. This is just my personal experience. My original cranberry thread is down below, and some of those people were able to verify that it seems to be stronger than eating/capsules/drinking with juice/chocolates. I think I could handle an ounce of vinegar lol, but I don't feel like tripping too soon after last nite. You won't honestly understand how crazy it is until you try it. Maybe after this following weekend someone will have tried and have an experience to share.


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If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

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OfflinePIPBoy2000
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4716867 - 09/26/05 08:47 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

A friend of mine brought this thread and forum to my attention and just wanted to share my experiences. I have tried the said method with grapefruit juice many times using 1+ grams at a time never exceding 1.5. The trip that this produced is so intense it seems like it lasts a normal 8-10 hours but only lasts like 3-4. I have also notice that if i packed a bong right after I slammed the shot of grapefruit juice it was too intense almost, but the most relaxed and entertained I've ever been in my life. I suggest everyone give this way of tripping a try, very enlightening. You have to try it to understand where we are coming from.

Edited by PIPBoy2000 (09/26/05 08:48 PM)

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InvisibleMezcal
Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 1,980
Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Konnrade]
    #4716869 - 09/26/05 08:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
if you immerse a powder of cubes in cranberry juice, the dry shroom dust absorbs something that is acidic. Meaning it is begun to be digested prior to ingestion and is allready saturated with acid. Also, I've not known people to be able to choke down a dry powder of shrooms, but if they did the mere surface area would help. The cranberry juice at the least would make it a lot easier to slam down, and cranberry juice is a potent flavor, so it would help make it less unpleasant.




I hear what you're saying, that the time in the juice allows more activity to free the alkaloids in the mushrooms, but cranberry juice only has a pH of about 3.5, making it about 500 times less acidic than gastric acid. I predict that if the mushrooms were taken with H2O there would be no effect in blood levels of psilocin- only way to find out? Some sort of controlled experimental atmosphere, which we can't have in the US. Unless you all would like to donate a gas chromatograph and some human subjects to test on!

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OfflineLysergic_Milkman
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4716897 - 09/26/05 08:53 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

snyder said:
Unless you all would like to donate a gas chromatograph...




Sorry, I don't have $800 to throw around on experiments.  :rolleyes:

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InvisibleStickyWater
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4716901 - 09/26/05 08:54 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I predict that if the mushrooms were taken with H2O there would be no effect in blood levels of psilocin




Would this not be simply making tea?

Perhaps try dissolving an antacid into the cranberry juice next time to help neutralize the acidity and see if it makes a difference?

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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: StickyWater]
    #4717007 - 09/26/05 09:12 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Do people typically finely powder the mushrooms when making tea?

I think the important factor here is the powdering, not the juice. But, I would definitely rather swallow mush mush in cranberry juice rather than in H2O.

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InvisibleStickyWater
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4717069 - 09/26/05 09:21 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I've eaten finely powdered shrooms before, I didn't notice anything out different enough for me to suggest that powdering the shrooms made much of, if any difference... On a somewhat unrelated note, powdered shrooms is quite possibly the most disgusting feeling/flavour combination I've ever put in my mouth, and I generaly don't mind the taste of shrooms...

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OfflineLimelight
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: StickyWater]
    #4717178 - 09/26/05 09:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

i believe vinegar is less acidic than lemon juice, so i dont think would be worht it to take a shot of that..


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InvisibleStickyWater
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Limelight]
    #4717230 - 09/26/05 09:44 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Hmmm, how acidic is it in comparison to cranberry juice then?

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Invisiblekake
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: StickyWater]
    #4717238 - 09/26/05 09:45 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Snyder has made some good points.

The most important factor, I think as well, is the powdering.  We're not talking about potency increases here people, so don't be confused.  The phenomenon is a faster, more intense onset and a shorter duration.

A friend and I are going to try this tomorrow night and I will post back on the results.  Here's what we plan on using:

2.5g standard cubes (my most typical dose so I'll be able to determine relative differences)
10oz. cranberry juice
2oz. lemon/lime juice

I will powder them and let them soak in the juice while stirring vigorously for 5 minutes, then I'll gulp it all down as fast as possible.  This will be on an empty stomach.  Expect results to be posted on Wednesday.  Any good vibes for an expectedly intense ride would be much appreciated :smile:


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OfflineLimelight
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: kake]
    #4717261 - 09/26/05 09:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

cranberry juice and vinegar, prolly 3, lemon juice 2


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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: kake]
    #4717367 - 09/26/05 10:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks :smile:

If you want to make this psuedo-scientific, could you please also record the time you last ate (and roughly how much) and could you abstain from drinking any liquids for 30 minutes to 1 hour before trying it? If we could get a bunch of people to try the same method we could have at least a body of normalized subjective experiences to draw from, rather than a single or scattered group with no constant procedure.

Heh, and of course, have fun.

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Offlineyourenoturkhakis
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4717419 - 09/26/05 10:14 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Hi all. New here.

i plan on trying this out. I'm going to do a 2 gram trip (powdered in water) on an empty stomach this weekend, and then a 2 gram trip (powdered with juice) the following weekend. I'll let everyone know the results

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InvisibleStickyWater
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4717457 - 09/26/05 10:21 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

May I suggest that since this is a dose you are comfortable with and used to taking that you try the experiment but without the cranberry/lemon juice in order to test your idea that it's the powdering of the shrooms that's making the difference, from the information we've been given it's safe to say that taking cranberry or lemon juice does seem to be having an effect, or do you plan to trip again and are only using this trip as a way to get an idea of what the experience is like as to allow fore more accurate judgement in the intensity of the trip by comparison when consumed in different methods?

P.S. Good luck on your trip, just don't get your hopes up or else you'll just be setting yourself up for a disappointment, at the same time, don't get caught off guard.Have fun, enjoy, and I think I can speak for a lot of us when I say that I can't wait to hear how it goes.

Edited by StickyWater (09/26/05 10:26 PM)

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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: yourenoturkhakis]
    #4717507 - 09/26/05 10:31 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

It makes me all warm and tingly to see people so actively tossing themselves into being a part of the scientific method. The nerd in me is pleased.

However, please do take good solid precautions in the case that it does cause a major change in absorption, none of us want you to be caught off-guard and have some hell of a wild ride on a bad trip. Also, warn people and have a sitter, since goodness knows if you hit lv5 and someone who doesnt know what's going on sees you writhing on the ground or some such... you may wake up hospitalized when they call 911.


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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Konnrade]
    #4717653 - 09/26/05 10:51 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, plz be careful. It was way more than I expected it to be. It was a wildy intense inner journey due to the fact that it affected my motor functions and I had to just lie there lol. It had it's scary moments actually. Try not to exceed 2+ grams if you use the lemon/lime method. I have taken a 10gram dose before by eating them, and this was incomparably more intense. The saving grace if it does start to get out of control, is that it should be over in roughly 4hrs. You really do have to experience it to understand what it's like, but be responsible hehe.


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Offlinechaospilot
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: kake]
    #4717665 - 09/26/05 10:53 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

good luck, good vibes headin your way

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: chaospilot]
    #4717749 - 09/26/05 11:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

ALot more acidic, but it doesnt cleans the body the same way cran-juice does.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: kake]
    #4717768 - 09/26/05 11:08 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

...lots of considerations in high order...especially staying hydrated, i'm used to drinking a couple bottles of water within the first 2 hours of tripping, so i will take this into account when hydrating myself throughout the day.  we've been planning tomorrow night for well over a week, so rest assured. it will be fairly controlled and documented as unobtrusively thorough as possible.  as for powdering with water instead of juice, i believe the result would be similar to a tea mix, which to my knowledge has been said to sometimes increase the onset time as well.  thanks for the words. :grin:


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InvisibleStickyWater
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: kake]
    #4717890 - 09/26/05 11:26 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Hmmmm, so I don't quite understand what you were saying then about the powdering of the mushrooms being what increases the effects if you're saying washing it down with water would be like a tea mix, wouldn't that more or less right there say that it's not the powdering if using water wouldn't work, or am I missing something here.

Again though, while the increased surface are you'd get by powdering your shrooms would have an effect in the rate of absorbtion, I'm still leaning more towards the acid speeding up the rate of absorbtion into the blood (as well as the surface area) resulting in one massive "lump" (so to speak) of psilocybin entering your blood stream in a fairly short amount of time and being used up normaly, which would (at least the way I see it) create the results we've seen.

Who knows, all will hopefuly be revealed in time, this conversation has really (temporarily?) re-sparked my dessire to shroom, though for completely different reasons, whether or not I'll act on this dessire I have yet to decide.

Quote:

It makes me all warm and tingly to see people so actively tossing themselves into being a part of the scientific method. The nerd in me is pleased.




Whether you're a nerd or not, you still can't deny the fact that science is interesting to (at least) some degree, I can tell that I'm not going to be getting much sleep tonight...
Also like to add that that quote reminded me of a sweater I have...

"Without geometry life is pointless *(?,?)"

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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: yourenoturkhakis]
    #4717909 - 09/26/05 11:28 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Things to record for those trying this experiment:

# What liquid are you using?

# How much liquid did you drink the powder with? (oz)

# Time to "first alert" (aka, "whoa, something's definitely going to happen")

# Time to onset of visual disturbance

# Time to peak (rough estimate)

# Time to first sign of diminishing effects

# Time to baseline (indiscernable effects)

Please also note if you take any other substances, specifically marijuana- This could pose a significant confound.

Edited by snyder (09/26/05 11:37 PM)

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Offlinehot48yearolds
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: kake]
    #4717922 - 09/26/05 11:30 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

With this kind of knoledge we can all save a lot more mushrooms. Im guessing that all i would need is 3 or 4 caps, a lemon, and a bong. wow


--------------------
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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: StickyWater]
    #4717946 - 09/26/05 11:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

StickyWater said:
I'm still leaning more towards the acid speeding up the rate of absorbtion into the blood




Remember, your stomach is filled with pH ~1 gastric acids, that are about 500 times stronger than cranberry juice. Drinking a few ounces of cranberry juice or water should not significantly affect the overall acidity in your stomach.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4718155 - 09/27/05 12:06 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

How long did you let the powder settle in the juice? How fine was the powder? I could care less about the science and rationale of this, I just want to read some trip reports!

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4718334 - 09/27/05 12:56 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

snyder said:
Things to record for those trying this experiment:

# What liquid are you using?

# How much liquid did you drink the powder with? (oz)

# Time to "first alert" (aka, "whoa, something's definitely going to happen")

# Time to onset of visual disturbance

# Time to peak (rough estimate)

# Time to first sign of diminishing effects

# Time to baseline (indiscernable effects)

Please also note if you take any other substances, specifically marijuana- This could pose a significant confound.



Hmm this is interesting for several reasons.

I am a fairly experienced tripper (usually every 1 to 3 months) and with the exception of my first trip, have ALWAYS eaten shrooms ground up. The way I usually do it is I blend up fresh mushrooms with concentrated orange juice, then down it like a shot.

I also usually use the same dosage, measured on a gram scale accurate to 0.1 grams +/1 0.3 grams.

So basically what I'm saying is I usually do the same amount every time using the same method (which is highly blended, ie extrememly fine particle size).

I don't think I could down an ounce of vinigar. Sorry ppl I just can't do it. On the other hand, I may be able to take the shrooms with lemon or lime juice.

This would probably be the closest to a controlled experiment we could get, since most people don't end up blending every single time like I do. I could take down the info that snyder has written and give a qualitative report on how much stonger the trip was. Think this is a good idea?

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #4718339 - 09/27/05 12:59 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yes.  On with it :shroomer:
Then try with cranberry juice.
Then try with no juice, just powder.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Offlineajna
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: daimyo]
    #4718645 - 09/27/05 04:32 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

in my experience, when dosing with a strong orange juice (haven't tried cranberry or lemon yet) the effects are exactly how you describe - comes on much harder and faster, and finishes just as abruptly. i had put it down as an effect of the acidity in my own musings.

my girlfriend has also shot to probably a level 4 trip in about 10 mins, before she could even finish her glass of OJ/2g shrooms. she was not quite ready for it and found the first hour way too intense, and then felt completely sober 2 hours later.


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InvisibleStickyWater
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4718731 - 09/27/05 06:04 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

snyder said:
Quote:

StickyWater said:
I'm still leaning more towards the acid speeding up the rate of absorbtion into the blood




Remember, your stomach is filled with pH ~1 gastric acids, that are about 500 times stronger than cranberry juice. Drinking a few ounces of cranberry juice or water should not significantly affect the overall acidity in your stomach.




Agreed, and I've taken that into account, but would it not be possible that the acid in the cranberry juice would not at least very least assist the process of digestion? Hmmm, but yes, now that I think about it more (and I'm not quite soo sleep deprived this time) I can deffinitely understand why it could be more the powdering of the shrooms than anything, but then the question would be why didn't anything like that happen when I had powdered them up and eaten them?

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OfflineLysergic_Milkman
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: StickyWater]
    #4718839 - 09/27/05 07:39 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I do powdered shrooms frequently. You'd be suprised at how little affect this has on absorbtion. The powdering of the material is not significant. If anything, i have found that powdered shrooms are quite a bit weaker than whole shrooms because the active chemicals are allowed to deteriorate rapidly.

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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
    #4719044 - 09/27/05 09:10 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

IME yes it is significant. I have had mushrooms take over an hour to hit hard when ingested almost whole.

Quote:

i have found that powdered shrooms are quite a bit weaker than whole shrooms because the active chemicals are allowed to deteriorate rapidly.




Ever done a test between, whole shrooms, ground shrooms, and heat made tea? Oh wait, it is impossible. Every trip is different, you can only take one dose at a time. You may be more susceptible or a whole slew of other factors. Just because you see cause and effect does not mean one causes the other.


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You are everything's way of feeling itself.

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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: mecreateme]
    #4719197 - 09/27/05 10:04 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mecreateme said:
Ever done a test between, whole shrooms, ground shrooms, and heat made tea? Oh wait, it is impossible. Every trip is different, you can only take one dose at a time. You may be more susceptible or a whole slew of other factors. Just because you see cause and effect does not mean one causes the other.




That's why we should try to get as many reports as possible. If we can identify a general trend, we can make a statement about that trend. It doesn't mean that we have proven causality, just that we have noticed a corrolation between factors and effects.

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Offlinemcchieftan
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4719273 - 09/27/05 10:25 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Try doing LSD or mushrooms at a psytrance rave with UV decoration, lasers and the like ...I went to freedom festival in portugal this year (decoration was http://www.tribeoffrog.co.uk) but I don't think the pictures are up yet).

UV at nighttime tends to slightly trail in your eye anyway but on acid.... :zoom: .. It was the first trip I've experienced where I can only rarely make out the real world for most of the duration because theres so damn much insane psychedelia rushing through my vision.. then you try relying on your hearing but sounds are all coming from opposite directions or from above or below..I've tripped many times and I've always remained in this base reality, as far as I am aware but for me live music, the outdoors and lots of flashly lights and lasers make a trip that much more potent (if that is what you are looking for...)

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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4719350 - 09/27/05 10:48 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

What I am saying is there are just way too many factors to determine this trend. Way too many!

Set
Setting
Experience
Quality of material(amount of alkaloids)
Different trip
Diet
Fasting

All of these can change a trip.

People so often talk about how they tripped this way when they did an eighth and this way when they did two grams or however you wanna put it. My qualm is that you cannot compare two trips. There are just too many variables. I am all for this kind of experiment, it just seems that it cannot be done truly scientifically.


--------------------
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You are everything's way of feeling itself.

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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: mecreateme]
    #4719403 - 09/27/05 11:02 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, there are many factors. We understand we can't control the universe to get identical trials. What we can do is get people to give their subjective impressions on how fast and how intense the experience was. If our results show no obvious trend, then that's what happens. I'll leave it up to individuals to draw conclusions from the data we collect.

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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: mcchieftan]
    #4719451 - 09/27/05 11:12 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, I've been going to psytrance events since 2001 here in North America. I've partied coast to coast in the states and up in good old Canada. Using hallucinogens there is always fun, but hard to transition to a spiritual experience, IME.

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OfflineCeeThruMeer
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4719689 - 09/27/05 12:13 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Would it work to shave or grate chocolate into cranberry juice... or is there no point in that?


--------------------
"my old friend told me
to do well always
set your sails, open
ride your waves, flowing
just relax, sober
leave you past, it's over
bind two hands, stronger
my soul waits, forward" - Arjun and Guardians

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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4719758 - 09/27/05 12:27 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

We understand we can't control the universe to get identical trials.




Speak for yourself, not the board. I was trying to instill the above sentence into this discussion. You restated it well, if even in a matter-of-fact-you-fool, style. :grin:


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You are everything's way of feeling itself.

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Invisiblekake
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: mecreateme]
    #4720206 - 09/27/05 02:00 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Another point to clear up some confusion...

I think what we're focusing on here is the ability of the juice to assist in absorption rate by pre-mixing with the juice.  I think eating the shrooms then drinking the juice would have only a little effect since the pH in your stomach is much more acidic (and since this is my normal method and while not powdered, I eat fine bits and  wash it down with juice, still takes about 1/2hr+ to feel. 

There are lots of other questions we could raise also.  Perhaps saliva inhibits absorption...perhaps it is merely powder form that increases absorption, or perhaps it is more of a catalyst effect, where the stomach begins operating in a fashion almost entirely in tune with digesting the acidic juice and as some side-effect it absorbs psilocybin faster. 

I think we need some of our friendly biologists to offer some expertise in the digestive process, for instance, does the stomach operate in different ways depending on what its served and could this be an effect?

T-minus 6 hours :laugh:


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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: kake]
    #4720520 - 09/27/05 03:04 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Lots of interesting replies so far. At this point I am just waiting for someone to try lemon/lime juice with powdered shrooms. The lemon/lime is the new variable that I would like someone to try. Finely powdered shrooms put in the juice of a couple lemons, let sit 5mins or less, then shoot it. I have limited information already about cranberry from myself, friends, and few forum replies. I know there is no way to quantify the effects, but lemon/lime easily seemed many many times more powerful than even the cranberry method. My prediction is that any person who actually does the lemon/lime method will literally have a borderline freakout trip lol. And possibly we can get to a point where everyone who tries it this way will agree that something special is going on with this combination.


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Offlinethe_psychonaut
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4720821 - 09/27/05 03:54 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

in my experience with powdering the shrooms up, my trip is usually a much faster come up, much stronger peak, but also about 2 hours shorter in duration. i always pop a vitamin c pill before my trips(even if its just placebo) it works for me


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Offlinechaospilot
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: the_psychonaut]
    #4721325 - 09/27/05 05:26 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

i think someone should try it with lemon or lime juice, and then with cranberry. Maybe there is an enzyme in the cranberries that help out with making the trip stronger?


P.S. I know its been said like 100,000,000 times before

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Offlinenonphixion
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: chaospilot]
    #4724896 - 09/28/05 11:04 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Eight pages and no ones tried it yet?

This is mushroom cultivation site... I'm surprised more people don't have some mushies to spare


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Offlinemcchieftan
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: nonphixion]
    #4725182 - 09/28/05 12:07 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

There ain't a chance of there being any enzymes in the juice unless its fresh and even then its unlikely: They pasteurise fruit juices just like milk.

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OfflineRamuh
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: kake]
    #4725370 - 09/28/05 12:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

kake said:
Snyder has made some good points.

The most important factor, I think as well, is the powdering.  We're not talking about potency increases here people, so don't be confused.  The phenomenon is a faster, more intense onset and a shorter duration.

A friend and I are going to try this tomorrow night and I will post back on the results.  Here's what we plan on using:

2.5g standard cubes (my most typical dose so I'll be able to determine relative differences)
10oz. cranberry juice
2oz. lemon/lime juice

I will powder them and let them soak in the juice while stirring vigorously for 5 minutes, then I'll gulp it all down as fast as possible.  This will be on an empty stomach.  Expect results to be posted on Wednesday.  Any good vibes for an expectedly intense ride would be much appreciated :smile:




According to that it HAS been tried, we're just waiting for the info to come back hehe. Which BTW I can't wait to hear. How did it go man?


--------------------
Radio is down for a day or two to transfer all my music, and do some other work.

"Light, coming from my mind. We are one, the night has just begun"

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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Ramuh]
    #4725866 - 09/28/05 02:45 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The absorbic acid stops the water from turning blue..but the biggest effect is the sublingual ingestion. Shew mushrooms up and hold them in your mouth and you get a quicker come on, same if you drink it in tea. Of course its not like eating them..works great and thats why I love the tea method..its not just for the taste.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: I may have discovered something... *DELETED* [Re: nonphixion]
    #4725912 - 09/28/05 02:57 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by adjust

Reason for deletion: wrong info


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InvisiblePyjamas
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl] * 1
    #4726202 - 09/28/05 04:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Wikipedia - Psilocin (What our body turns the Psilocybin into) is obtained by dephosphorylation of psilocybin under strongly acidic or alkaline conditions. Psilocin is relatively unstable due to its phenolic OH group. Under alkaline conditions in the presence of oxygen it immediately forms bluish and dark black degradation products. Similar products are also formed under acidic conditions in the presence of oxygen and Fe3+ ions (Keller's reagent, FeCl3 / MeOH / HCl). Psilocin is a basic amine and forms salts with acids that are usually more stable upon storage.

The more acidity the quicker the Psilocybin is broken down to Psilocin.

Must experiment with this!


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. . . Lime and limpid green, the sound surrounds the icy waters underground . . .

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Offlineguri
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Pyjamas]
    #4727520 - 09/28/05 08:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

just a thought, but from what i gather most people would agree that when you powder your shrooms they will kick in due to an increased surface area that can be worked on in your stomache.

now if the cranberry juice and lemon juice is extracting the active ingrediants, but not nessacerily all of them, that means that when the juice and powdered shrooms arrive in your stomache, the surface area to work with has been dramaticly increased.

because not only do you have the powder to work on, but as well as all the liquid that contains the psilocybin that was absorbed while still in the cup.


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"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks

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Invisiblekake
The answer to1984 is 1776.
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: guri]
    #4727993 - 09/28/05 10:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

# What liquid are you using?
10oz. cranberry 1oz lemon juice 1oz lime juice

# How much liquid did you drink the powder with?
12 oz with 2.5g freshly ground cubensis @ 7:17pm(t).

# Time to "first alert" (aka, "whoa, something's definitely going to happen")  7:31pm (t+14 minutes)

# Time to onset of visual disturbance 7:40pm (t+23 minutes)

# Time to peak (rough estimate) 8:35pm (t+78 minutes)

# Time to first sign of diminishing effects 10:28pm (first calming effect felt t+191 minutes)

# Time to baseline (indiscernable effects) 12:45pm


peak came on noticeably faster than most trips, ride up felt very intense and the "buzz" was energetic and very laughy and fun but tiresome as well.  we chilled in my living room listening to music and talking until after the peak, at which point we spent the rest of the trip on the back deck enjoying a nice night and stargazing.  will provide some more details later, but i'm going to bed right now :smile:


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The answer to 1984 is 1776.

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Offlinerobmac9090
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: kake]
    #4728027 - 09/28/05 10:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

interesting report kake...

Do you normally grind up your shrooms before ingesting them?

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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: robmac9090]
    #4728500 - 09/28/05 11:09 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Pyjamas had some good comments. I am starting to think the acidity is the key. After giving it some thought after my trip, I realized that everytime I have ever used the cranberry method, I used cranberry juice cocktail. The highest concentration of cranberry juice I could find was 27% pure juice. I would think that would make cranberry juice cocktail less acidic than straight cranberry juice. The lemon/lime I used this past weekend was fresh squeezed pure juice. It was less than 2 fl. ounces of lemon/lime juice, so I am thinking that it is something to do with the acidity much more than surface area. Thanks for trying what you did kake, can't wait to see more details. I am also waiting for someone to try pure lemon/lime juice still.


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If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

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OfflineCrestfallen
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4728590 - 09/28/05 11:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Okay... *raises hand*

I'll give the lemon/lime juice thing a try, probably this weekend.

It will be 2g. or very close, taken like a shot w/ roughly 1 oz. of lemon/lime juice. (mostly lemon)

I know how 2g. will generally treat me. any other suggestions?


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The above statement is completely fictional and composed solely for the purpose of entertainment.

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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Crestfallen]
    #4728832 - 09/28/05 11:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds good. 2 lemons and 1 lime is what I used. Powder your shrooms as best you can and and combine with juice, and drink within 5 mins. Try to notice any differences from when you normally do 2g. It should hit you faster, harder, and be over quicker than normal. If lemon/lime ends up being the 'secret' ingredient I believe it to be, it should be a memorable experience. Can't wait for more details.


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If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: kake]
    #4729993 - 09/29/05 04:54 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

in my dream last night,


6.0 g cubensis ecuador, shared between two others and myself

# What liquid are you using?
6oz cranberry, 100% juice from concentrate

# How much liquid did you drink the powder with?
6 oz with 2.0g ground cubensis @ 12:15am(t).

# Time to "first alert" (aka, "whoa, something's definitely going to happen") 12:35am (t+20 minutes)

# Time to onset of visual disturbance 12:55am (t+40 minutes)

# Time to peak (rough estimate) 1:35am (t+80 minutes)

# Time to first sign of diminishing effects 3:45am (~t+210 minutes. rough estimate, went back up and down)

# Time to baseline (indiscernable effects) 6:15am (t+360 minutes)

very pretty sunrise. awwwwwwwsome sex with partner. i love these goddamn mushrooms.

Edited by snyder (09/29/05 04:55 AM)

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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Mezcal]
    #4731663 - 09/29/05 12:55 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

To the thread starter:

As common sense eludes, what you had experienced was a rapid absorbtion of the mushroom matter. While powdering the substance contributes to this, it is not a matter of acidity as others have pointed out. It is in fact a matter of the sugars contained within the juice allow for rapid absorbtion, because what other chemical can you digest faster than a simple sugar?

I do believe however, that this method only works (as far as your ancedotal evidence eludes) because the sugars you are ingesting are water based. Ive taken 5g's of shrooms in milkshakes before, and these effects have never happened because of the time it takes to digest dairy products.

Perhaps a more proper control would to mix your powdered mushrooms in sugar water and observe the effects. It would be nice though if someone here would report the results of all the experiments they are intending to do.

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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: yousuck]
    #4732371 - 09/29/05 03:16 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Hmm, I have drank my powder with Dr. Pepper before. I would think that Dr. Pepper has much more sugar than any fruit juice. I could be wrong tho. Dr. Pepper gave me just a normal type trip. I came up with the lemon/lime idea based on acidity being the possible reason for the more intense shorter trips. Upon actually doing lemon/lime, I was literally amazed at the effects. I plan to try a single gram with the lemon/lime method sometime after my next pick. I will try sugar water in a month or two. Once someone tries lemon/lime and relates their experience, I may change my line of thinking.


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If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

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InvisibleQbanMoJo
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4732727 - 09/29/05 04:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Most protein shakes have sugars that are simple to digest so that when you drink it, it goes into your blood faster, ideal for post workouts. Only thing is that a lot of peeps on here eat shrooms dipped in honey, covered in chocolate, etc, and get the same intensity. What type of sugars would a lemon/lime posses that honey doesn't?

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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: QbanMoJo]
    #4734223 - 09/29/05 10:48 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Dr pepper isnt a simple sugar like table sugar is, its a syrup, not the same thing. Do you honestly think your body absorbs Dr pepper as quick and efficiently as it does fruit juice?

well, whatevers happening, the psilocin molecule is attaching itself to something in the fruit juice, instead of just floating around like it would in most other substances.

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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: yousuck]
    #4734234 - 09/29/05 10:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)


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InvisibleQbanMoJo
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: ]
    #4734528 - 09/30/05 12:04 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

richardcypher101 said:
Hm, I wonder what would happen if you took 2g with a tbsp of...Creatine....




nothing. unless you put fruit juice in there which would defeat the purpose for the creatine. Could make you think youre superman when you start tripping though. :stoned: :mushroom2:

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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: QbanMoJo]
    #4734733 - 09/30/05 12:41 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I have admitted I don't know what is going on. I have consumed my powdered shrooms with a variety of different liquids over the years however. After reading about the effect of cranberry juice used for extraction techniques, me and friends came upon the cranberry method. A much stronger experience than liquid ever used to that point(dr. pepper, milkshake, water, orange juice, apple juice, grapefruit juice, and shroom tea). After some replies to another post I made, and some discussion with friends, we all believed that the acidity of cranberry juice combined with the powder, before you consume, was having some added effect. Following that logic, we discovered that lemon and lime juice was much more acidic and should theoretically have even more increased effects. After trying it once, I sincerely believe it does. I think that the acidity is the major factor, but I am sure there is probably more than just that to what is going on. I discovered an interesting report that compares the pH and sugar contents of grapefruit, orange, lemon and limes.

http://www.msu.edu/course/lbs/145/luckie/inquiriesF2003/ABCD.html

If simple sugars were the reason for this increased effect, I would think oranges would have the greatest effect. This is not what I experienced. Lemon/lime has a much more noticeable effect than orange juice. I hope that someone else tries it and can confirm or deny my findings. If it pans out to actually be something, we can try to pinpoint exactly what is going on and what is causing it. Which may lead the whole community to the ideal liquid to take your shrooms with.


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If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

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InvisibleQbanMoJo
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4734845 - 09/30/05 01:17 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

it IS possible. the gastric acid in our stomach doesn't get absorbed by the blood right? maybe the lemon juice along with the psilocybin/psilocin is absorbed to the blood on the way down to the stomach. can anyone try eating the shrooms and then chasing it with the lemon juice/lemonade? like that if it takes less than 20mins to hit you then we can kinda say that the juice is extracting the chemicals and therefore entering your bloodstream faster. :stoned: :mushroom2:

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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4735046 - 09/30/05 02:26 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well it makes sense, to a certain extent. The acidity of the juice causes the psiloc(yb)in to be extracted into the juice more readily, and the psilocybin to be broken down into psilocin. So a certain quantity of the good stuff is already "pre-digested" by the time you drink it. Since the rest is powdered, and you take the dose all at once, it enters you bloodstream faster and in a higher concentration.

The first step of doing an acid/base extraction of, say, DMT, (remember that psiloc(yb)in is 4-HO-DMT), is to extract your powdered plant source into acidified water. This process is facilitated by agitation and heating. That's why you should always use a squirt of lemon/lime juice when making tea, (or shake up that cranberry juice well, and over a longer period of time).

This is the same conclusion I alluded to on another thread questioning the use of orange juice.

Edited by Land_Crab (09/30/05 02:50 AM)

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Offlinekroum
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Land_Crab]
    #4735259 - 09/30/05 04:00 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

*replying to original post*

Lol, I had to find that out the hard way. A few friends and I went on a camping trip to shroom, and we had powdered shrooms, this was my 2nd time shrooming, and the dealer said they were "aged" a year so I though they wouldn't be as potent. I took an 8th and a quarter of an 8th, mixed them with a water bottle full of OJ, shook them up vigorously for 2 minutes, and chugged it. It took LITERALLY 5 minutes for everything to start swimming. Half an hour later my ONLY wish in the world was to die, to escape the complete and total sensory overload. I even forgot I took mushrooms. I was more lost than I have ever been in my life. Right before I lost my ego, I knew I was going to die, and I kept asking my friends to help me, knowing that they couldn't do anything. Then I died. I was in an ego-less state for a while but I don't really remember it, and then I was reborn, I had to relearn how to live, how to exist from a singular perspective, how to live in my body, and then how to talk again. And like the original post said, the trip went from tripping really hard, to basically baseline over the course of 5-10 minutes. The whole trip took 4.5 hours.


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"Why not?"
Last words of Timothy Leary

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OfflineManninee
Psilence IsGolden

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THE ANSWER [Re: kroum]
    #4735279 - 09/30/05 04:24 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Hey guys, interesting debate, but you're all generally on the wrong track: The reason the effects are increased is due to chemicals in fruit juices called BIOFLAVINOIDS. These are commoner in acidic fruits.
It was discovered back in the 90s that lots of folks using pharmaceuticals were complaining of interactions with grapefruit juice - effects of many drugs were enhanced, and in a few cases side effects were enhanced causing harm (eg - Terfenidine: an anti-allergy drug was withdrawn because of it).
Now you can read up about it all on the net if you Google 'grapefruit drug interaction', or you can try the following link that explains how it works:

http://www.agd.org/library/2005/july/Flanagan.pdf

You can buy bioflavinoid supplements in health/herb stores but you might want to be careful of any unwanted side effects with the mushies if using the concentrated stuff. Dose low with the shrooms and keep a note of any symptoms of heart palpitations, feeling faint, excessive sweating etc

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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: THE ANSWER [Re: Manninee]
    #4736641 - 09/30/05 12:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

keep a note of any symptoms of heart palpitations, feeling faint, excessive sweating etc




i dont think ive ever had a trip where these effects werent present, and ive never used a fruit juice with shrooms before. Im not sure ill be all to willing to go out and try this method if its just going to increase these effects.

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OfflineManninee
Psilence IsGolden

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Re: Side effects [Re: yousuck]
    #4738100 - 09/30/05 06:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The bioflavinoids might reduce side effects - who knows. The point is that people need to be careful and make sure that they arent gonna screw up their health by taking their experimenting too far into the unknown. So far as I know there are very few reports of serious physiologically harmful effects with 'psybes however they are taken...
It would be better if there was a safer potentiator than the Harmala alkaloids (shroomahuasca!) that some have tried.

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Offlinedeficitism
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Re: Side effects [Re: Underhillmaster] * 1
    #4740324 - 10/01/05 08:02 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

2 grams PC Amazon with 1 cup of pure lemon juice

# What liquid are you using?
Pure lemon juice

# How much liquid did you drink the powder with?
1 Cup with 2 grams of amazon PC

# Time to "first alert" (aka, "whoa, something's definitely going to happen")
7:15PM(t+15 minutes)

# Time to onset of visual disturbance
7:40PM(t+40 minutes)

# Time to peak (rough estimate)
9:10PM (t+90 minutes)

# Time to first sign of diminishing effects
11:00PM(t+240 minutes)

# Time to baseline (indiscernable effects)
12:00am (t+360 minutes)

Conclusion: Yes it works! I have done magic mushrooms over 100 times and this was by far the most intense. The come on was fast, the peak was intense, the visuals were the most amazing I have ever seen!!! Everyone should give this a try. I will never eat veggies without lemon juice again!


--------------------
"Someday after mastering the winds, waves, tides and gravity, we shall harness the energies of love, and then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will discover fire." -Teilhard de Chardin

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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Side effects [Re: deficitism]
    #4740509 - 10/01/05 09:50 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

This is really interesting stuff, and it's awesome that some of you are trying it and giving a detailed report on your method and effects.  Keep it up!

On a similar note, earlier this year some friends and I took 2 grams each of powdered cubes and ground them into a cup of orange juice.  Having been grown on horse manure these were above average potency, but the effects of this particular trip exceeded most that I've ever been on, and it got me to seriously consider the vitamin thing all over again.

Most of us were still tripping 7-8 hours later, which is pretty remarkable.  I have no idea what exactly this can be attributed to other than strong cubes and some effect the orange juice/acids had on them in powdered form, but cranberry juice is on my list of things to try next.  I believe there is definitely a connection here, but finding out just what it is, is the next step. 

Keep it up the good work, great thread.  :thumbup: :mushroom2:


--------------------
To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.

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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: Side effects [Re: Holydiver]
    #4741546 - 10/01/05 03:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

can someone answer a Q on this:

are you supposed to make a tea using cranberry juice or just powder the mushrooms into the juice and drink the resulting slush? i can imagine that tasting very nasty.

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OfflineUnderhillmaster
The LemonProphet

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Re: Side effects [Re: yousuck]
    #4741656 - 10/01/05 04:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Just drink the slush. I pinched my nose shut when I drank mine hehe. Lemon/lime juice seems to be the best liquid to use so far. I'm glad someone else tried it and had similar experience. Keep up the experimentation, and if you haven't tried cranberry or lemon/lime, you should definitely give it a try.


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If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

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Offlinedeficitism
woo woo

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Re: Side effects [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4744674 - 10/02/05 08:45 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

This works... I have a feeling if the powdered shrooms were soaked in lemon juice for a while (maybe 2-3 days) and then the mush discarded, we would have a nice sour psilocybin extraction liquid! You could probably store the mixture in a sealed airplane liquor bottle for 1 dose. I will do the honors of testing this for the sake of science. (I grew a bit much on my last batch.)

Feedback, thoughts, suggestions?


--------------------
"Someday after mastering the winds, waves, tides and gravity, we shall harness the energies of love, and then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will discover fire." -Teilhard de Chardin

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Offlinedeficitism
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Re: Side effects [Re: deficitism]
    #4744679 - 10/02/05 08:46 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

PS : Lets keep this thread active for any updates anyone may have.


--------------------
"Someday after mastering the winds, waves, tides and gravity, we shall harness the energies of love, and then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will discover fire." -Teilhard de Chardin

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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: Side effects [Re: deficitism]
    #4745066 - 10/02/05 11:33 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

TRIP REPORT:

took 3.5g's (grain cubes) powdered in cranberry juice. Now i have a naturally high tolerance, so taking 3.5 grams for me usually dont produce more than a slight body high, i usually have to take 10g's to get any decent effects.

The onset hit me within 20 minutes, the entire trip was intensely powerful, i dont think ive ever tripped that hard off of mushrooms without freaking out. It was pulling me into the mushroom world, which was strange because even when i take 10g's i have very weak visuals and mentals and i find it very hard to go into my head. The visuals were amazing, everything looked planar as if i were staring at one of those magic eye pictures. It go so intense that i had to sit up and regain control.

Yeah, cranberry juice is the real deal, and even better it masks the taste of powdered shrooms pretty well, and you dont have to eat as much. I dont think ill ever do shrooms without it.
------

More info on my last trip:

Onset T+ 20 minutes

peak t+ 40

comedown t+2 hours

base T+ 4 hours

I ate breakfast that morning, hadnt smoked weed for a few days and didnt smoke it that day, took it at 8pm lasted untill midnight. I drank the juice and the powder all at once without letting it sit, prob used about a cup or more of juice. I also had pretty intense nausea during the peak of the trip, and i felt like tired and mentally wasted the following day, but it was well worth it.

Edited by yousuck (10/02/05 09:59 PM)

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Offlinedeficitism
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Re: Side effects [Re: yousuck]
    #4745093 - 10/02/05 11:43 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

yousuck said:
TRIP REPORT:

took 3.5g's (grain cubes) powdered in cranberry juice. Now i have a naturally high tolerance, so taking 3.5 grams for me usually dont produce more than a slight body high, i usually have to take 10g's to get any decent effects.

The onset hit me within 20 minutes, the entire trip was intensely powerful, i dont think ive ever tripped that hard off of mushrooms without freaking out. It was pulling me into the mushroom world, which was strange because even when i take 10g's i have very weak visuals and mentals and i find it very hard to go into my head. The visuals were amazing, everything looked planar as if i were staring at one of those magic eye pictures. It go so intense that i had to sit up and regain control.

Yeah, cranberry juice is the real deal, and even better it masks the taste of powdered shrooms pretty well, and you dont have to eat as much. I dont think ill ever do shrooms without it.




Beautiful!!!! This shit really works! Keep the reports coming.

I have 2 grams powdered right now soaking in a cup of pure lemon juice. I will let it sit in the juice until Wednesday. Then I will strain out the mushroom gunk. I will then soak the remaining mush in water for a day. Strain out the mush and discard the mushroom powder. I will then mix the water and lemon juice together to make psilocybin lemonade! I will let you know how it goes.


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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: Side effects [Re: deficitism]
    #4745531 - 10/02/05 02:49 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm really glad people are trying cranberry and lemon/lime, it truly is a completely different experience. Many of my friends and now a few people in this forum have said this is the only way they will ever do shrooms again. I am going to try a single gram tonight with a lemon. From past experience, I can barely feel a gram when eating it. I am hoping for much more noticeable effect with the lemon juice. There are many benefits I can see from this discovery. You can use less shrooms for a similar effect, and save shrooms. You can take your normal doses for a magnified effect, and quite a bit more intense trip. It masks the taste extremely well. And if deficitism's idea works out, you could avoid the sludge which is the only sorta 'nasty' part of doing shrooms this way. I'll let you know how my single gram trip goes tomorrow.


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Offlinelechuck
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Re: Side effects [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4745538 - 10/02/05 02:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

thank a lot for the info, is great.

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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Side effects [Re: lechuck]
    #4745646 - 10/02/05 03:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm planning a 2 gram trip this weekend with the addition of cranberry juice, so I'll post my results here.  Do most of you just mix the powder and drink, or do you let it soak awhile? 

Keep the experiments coming but most importantly keep this thread alive! :smile: :thumbup:

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Offlinesuperbob57
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4746468 - 10/02/05 07:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I understand this...do you think sunny D would work as well...
Because i drank half-gallon of sunny D citrus and 2 grams of cubies and tripped balls, similiar to the other people it was real intense at first and then became very visual...I think anything citrus well help your chances at tripping...please share anymore drinks to help out trips...


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OfflineNashbar
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: superbob57]
    #4746614 - 10/02/05 07:54 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

great thread... Does anyone enjoy a nice long, easy trip? I took an eighth last night and went to a concert. I barely chewed them at all, I hate getting those bits in my teeth. Swallowed big chunks with some water, so they wouldn't get digested as fast. I went on a fantastic trip for 8 hours of clubs and bars and music.

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OfflineZeus133
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: superbob57]
    #4746641 - 10/02/05 08:01 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Things to record for those trying this experiment:

# What liquid are you using?-pre bottled lemon juice concetrate

# How much liquid did you drink the powder with? (oz)-8oz

# Time to "first alert" (aka, "whoa, something's definitely going to happen")-15 min

# Time to onset of visual disturbance-30-45 min

# Time to peak (rough estimate)-3 hours

# Time to first sign of diminishing effects-3 hours

# Time to baseline (indiscernable effects)-3 1/2 hours

Please also note if you take any other substances, specifically marijuana- This could pose a significant confound.-no food for 18 hours prior


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OfflineZeus133
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Zeus133]
    #4746656 - 10/02/05 08:04 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

oh i forgot to add the trip was the most intense trip ive ever had. almost lost control of it.
Specs: 5'6' 145lbs. 7th trip


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"when you lose small mind you free your life, when you free your life eternal prize" sytem of a down

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Zeus133]
    #4746671 - 10/02/05 08:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well how much did you consume?

I'm definitely going to try this next time I get ahold of some mushrooms.

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OfflineZeus133
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4746684 - 10/02/05 08:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

wow 1.7 grams sry still a little spacey from it.


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"when you lose small mind you free your life, when you free your life eternal prize" sytem of a down

"i want something good to die for to make it beautiful to live" queens of the stone age

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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Zeus133]
    #4747802 - 10/03/05 12:39 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Lol, well I tried my single gram with lemon/lime.  I used the juice from one lemon and one lime, which was exactly 1 fl. oz.  I powdered my shrooms and combined.  The effects were very noticeable, I got very spaced out listening to the new Shpongle album.  The trip as a whole was equivalent to 3-4g eaten.  I know it sounds crazy, but it literally feels like your tripping harder by a factor of 2x or 3x lol.  I know a lot of you out there are a bit skeptical at this point.  It's something you have to do to believe.  In my original post to this thread, I expressed CAUTION, and I still think that way at this point.  4+g done this way could very well cause loss of control.  But done with a little respect, I think you will be astounded by the results.

This discovery could transform the whole mushroom culture, it's that incredible lol.  During both trips, I felt like the lemon was teaching me the true meaning of the mushroom :0  During the first trip, I actually felt I had become the Lemon Prophet lol.  Well I have shared the discovery, and I hope it benefits us all :smile:


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4748651 - 10/03/05 09:39 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

You can make tea and have the exact same thing happen as with cranberry juice, or orange juice. I've tried orange juice 3 times, cranberry juice twice, and tea probably close to 50 times, straight most but probably 20 with lemon juice added. Ive tried lemon juice and water and water once each as well. All effects were very similar, and very strong..I tried 1 gram of good mushrooms in all of the catagories, some catagories I've tried multiple doses (like tea).

I believe the absorbic acid plays a part (just like adding the apples to stop oxidation) but its small..the biggest increase of the trip is due to you being able to absorb the mush quickly through your mouth (and stomach) because the actives are all now in liquid form.. Just what I think..


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: WillieTomg]
    #4749097 - 10/03/05 12:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

This is why I'm going to have to chalk this one up to placebo effect. There's just no scientific reason why ANY juice would increase effects at all.




No, no, don't do THAT.
Just because the theory may not be well-founded it doesn't at all mean the observations are incorrect! You are damning the observations with your inability to make sense of them, science at its worst.

Quote:

I'd test this a few times.




Now that's the spirit! Do it properly as to not undermine your findings. :thumbup:


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Asante]
    #4749312 - 10/03/05 01:04 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I plan on trying the lemon juice with 1.5 grams this weekend or the weekend after. Very interesting stuff.

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Offlineslammin007
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4749585 - 10/03/05 02:11 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Very interesting...

How long are people letting the shroom powder 'soak' in the juice?
I assume there would be a slightly different time for each juice for maximal effects in
extracting and/or acting as a catalyst in psilocybin - psilocin conversion. Also, higher juice to shroom ratio to maximize surface area (to a point) and/or mixing to speed up whatever is taking place could increase effects.


my $.02

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OfflineBlueFos
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4750031 - 10/03/05 03:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Ive also had the same effects using water and choppin my mushies up very finely.It seems to help if i let them soak for an extended time like atleast 20-25mins. Im yet to try the lemon/lime juice or cranberry but ill have to try as soon as the season begins


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: BlueFos]
    #4750078 - 10/03/05 03:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If all goes well I might return tomorrow with two experience reports of very low doses of shrooms + liquids.


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Invisiblekake
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Asante]
    #4751421 - 10/03/05 08:24 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

my friend let his soak for about 10 minutes, and I let mine soak for about 2, and subjectively, we experienced our peaks at just about the same time.  i <3 this thread :smile:


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: slammin007]
    #4751488 - 10/03/05 08:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

slammin007 said:
a catalyst in psilocybin - psilocin conversion.




I am thinking the same as well.

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OfflineOmk
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4751527 - 10/03/05 08:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Its kind of funny that no one has mentioned this before.

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OfflineNashbar
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4752162 - 10/03/05 10:59 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:
You can make tea and have the exact same thing happen as with cranberry juice, or orange juice. I've tried orange juice 3 times, cranberry juice twice, and tea probably close to 50 times, straight most but probably 20 with lemon juice added. Ive tried lemon juice and water and water once each as well. All effects were very similar, and very strong..I tried 1 gram of good mushrooms in all of the catagories, some catagories I've tried multiple doses (like tea).

I believe the absorbic acid plays a part (just like adding the apples to stop oxidation) but its small..the biggest increase of the trip is due to you being able to absorb the mush quickly through your mouth (and stomach) because the actives are all now in liquid form.. Just what I think..




he's right, liquids are absorbed lot faster than solids. very small amounts ground and steeped in any liquid produce good effects

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OfflineManninee
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This hyphus (thread) [Re: Nashbar]
    #4752968 - 10/04/05 03:48 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Hey guys - the thread is supposed to be about if you can potentiate shroom tea or shroom juice with fruit juices (cranberry/grapefruit etc).
Boiling shrooms or heating above 70 degrees C will convert the psilocybin to psilocin, whatever you put with it.
We need to prove that shroom tea AND fresh shrooms are potentiated by the fruits. Gold Zingers and Grapefruit-Cubie smoothies all round, please!

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Manninee]
    #4753035 - 10/04/05 06:02 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Distilled water pH 7.0
Drinking water pH 6.5 ? 8

Human blood pH 7.35 ? 7.45
Human saliva pH 6.3 ? 6.6
Stomach juice pH 1 ? 3

Apple juice pH 2.9 ? 3.3
Grapes pH 3.5 ? 4.5
Grapefruit juice pH 3 ? 3.3
Lemon juice pH 2.3
Lime pH 1.8 ? 2
Orange juice pH 3 ? 4
Tomato & tomato juice pH 4.2
Vinegar pH 2.4 ? 3.4

---------------------------------------------------------

What I find interesting is that the fruit juices involved tend to be in the pH range of stomach juice and that an often-drank juice which is in reasonably close pH proximity (Orange juice) is a source of a neverending debate about whether it potentiates mushrooms or not.

Hear me out:

1...Psilocin is preserved by acidity, destroyed by alkalinity
2...The stomach is acid, less acid after food or drink
3...The intestines are alkaline
4...Acidic foods are retained in the stomach for a longer period than non-acidic foods
5...Biologically unrelated fruit juices seem to potentiate psilocin

All this sounds like the acid hypothesis might indeed be valid and the bioflavonoid hypothesis suffers the decreased likeliness of biologically unrelated juices having the same flavonoids. The MAOI hypothesis and the p450 hypothesis likely are invalid because these juices would definately be known to medicine to act in that way, like grapefruit is. (especially if you consider lemon juice is active at 1oz whereas grapefruit juice p450 effects seem to start at 5oz)

Today I'll conduct one or two experiments on myself today and I've asked a friend to squeeze in a designed experiment of his own, which he'll probably do. If Underhillmaster's Juice TEK works it will revolutionize shrooming as we know it, because several experimenters above agree that one portion could be shared among 2-4 people and give all of them a full-portion strength.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4753041 - 10/04/05 06:14 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

EXPERIMENT: Substitution of fruit juice with 30ml of a 5% Ascorbic acid solution (pH 2)

Liquid: 30ml (approx 1 fluid ounce) of a fluid consisting of 1.5gr Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) and distilled water to yield an organic acid solution of pH 2 which is of mid-range stomach juice acidity and comparable to the lemon/lime juice described in the primary post.

Mushrooms: 0.25gr of Psilocybe cubensis powder (minimal dosage) of which I know the strength and effects in that dose. Contains about 2mg psilocybin, probably grown on grain.

Preparation: After preparation of the solution the powder will be stirred into it to prevent lumping, the liquid will be kept for 15 minutes in the dark and drank neat on an empty stomach without involvement of any recreational drugs in the previous week.


THE TEST:

3:30h --- Drank the portion. Not so vile as anticipated, it literally is at lemon-strength.

+3min --- LOL if this alert will develop typically we might have something here :grin:

+30min --- Umm.. Err.. Ok, here's the deal: the effect now is about as developed as it would be perhaps an hour into it. The acid-only method *definately* gives at least an increase of velocity over the 3-5oz of mushroom tea I usually take. So it's maybe twice as fast as strained mushroom tea and I'm beginning to think I might just get higher too. It feels *different* to a normal Minimal Dosage but this probably is due to it climbing more steeply. There already is the fuzzy head, the wobbly mind and the visual alterations characteristic of minimal dosage. To jump to conclusions: It seems to me the Acid Hypothesis is correct and that I might just get similar potentiation with my 5% Vitamin C. Dude! I mean dude! There definately is something going on beyond placebo here!

+45min --- Good God :shocked: I'm definately getting potentiation here! It is now beyond what it would be as a mere tea, but because I'm  NOT there yet I won't guess. I'm talking myself out of placebo effects but its NOT happening :evil: I sincerely hope I get in trouble, because that only occurs at 0.75gr and up.
Underhillmaster: You DEFINATELY found something!!
I'm producing more saliva than usually, likely a physiological reaction to reduce the acidity in my stomach.

+1hr --- Uhuh! I think I'll settle for a halving of climbing time leading to a doubling in height which makes it probable that pH 2 in the stomach leads to enhanced absorption compared to the usual methods of use. The Acidity Hypothesis is no longer hypo :wink: but I'd like independent verification. I think the rapid climb led to a different kind of effect, taking in the earlier experimenters to estimate greater multiplications.

I think a very acidic gulp urges the stomach to force its contents into the bloodstream, thereby pulling the psilocybin (or perhaps ANY alkaloid :eek:) along with it. If this is the case you might double the strength of any alkaloid drug (thus halve its effective dose) if you take it on an empty stomach with a bit of lets say lemon juice. Or as for absorption: 
lemon-empty > empty stomach > some food > full meal

It makes sense, but if an acidic stomach indeed drives absorption into overdrive for general alkaloids it's a bloody revolution!

+1:30h --- I just aborted stomach acidity with some food and drink. I perhaps will go in a second time today, this time with 1oz of lemon juice to see if this leads to notable potentiation.
Time to make a dose-response balance. Indeed, it came on about twice as fast and hit me twice as hard. The Acid Hypothesis holds true and I hope others will confirm or deny this lil experiment. It seems to be a matter of absorption efficiency and definately is beyond placebo.
If 2 gr hits you as 4 you might settle on it feeling like 100 grams  :evil: but if 0.25gr hits you as 0.5 there's enough objectivity left to make that call. What i'm hoping is that the juices will hit even better than Vitamin C solution! But it seems clear that carboxylic acidity alone (ascorbic instead of citric acid) enhances the efficiency of absorption above that of an empty stomach or mushrooms in a neutral pH solution.

1:45h ---  :eek: We have trouble! Unexpectedly the strength rose further still and i'm definately at a 0.75-1gr strength (3-4x) without any shred of doubt. There's actually work to be done here mentally, rather than observing a response. :evil:

3:00h --- LORD GOD :eek: this is really unbelievable! This is.. DAMN!
I'm experiencing a strength comparable to maybe 4-5 times the amount I took!  My... word:eek:
So to recapitulate I'm IMMERSED into a trip which has every single feature of a 1gr trip and I arrived here on 0.25gr (i'm twice as sensitive as the average user so it feels like 2gr on 0.5gr, basically) and I can hereby without any doubt confirm:

---The Acid Hypothesis is valid
---The approximate potentiation is at the very least 3x, likely 4x and possibly 5x the amount taken
---I'm tripping balls on a Minimal Dosage :eek:

4:00h --- Still going STRONG but clearly diminishing. I don't see this suddenly sinking into nothingness so I think I'll be in for the full duration (5-6 hours) a mushroom trip tends to have. LOL I thought the cat was in the basket at 1:30 but I got hammered shortly thereafter. I wonder if it's the food and drink (2oz cooked spiced meatloaf on a bun & 400ml Sprite/water 1/1) that activated it in the course of 15-20 minutes, the short stare at a rotating spiral :wink: but if you expect double and you get quadruple that can be called a kicking :wink: My dose is not your dose, but in darkness i had vivid imagery merging with thought and behind the PC fat waves rolled over the keyboard, the screen was warping and coming closer and further, sentences wiggled like snakes.. A kicking :smirk: Looking back I'd dare call this a fivefold increase in potency as compared to eaten, capsules and tea. I don't know what 1oz of lemonjuice would do but 1 oz of 5% ascorbic acid, judging from the reports, might be as good or even an optimized version.

LOL many of you will read this and go "1.5gr vitamin C and a shotglass of water.. Riiiight;)" well, I was a tad skeptic too but i'm a believer now. If you follow the exact Ascorbic method an 1/8oz tripper will get FRIED by one gram. I hope Lemonjuice is just as good, but I have every reason to believe it is.
Underhillmaster: if you get a huge grinning hippy at your door handing you a big pie it's either me or Erowid :grin:

+6:00h --- Although still a bit off I'm declaring myself back to biseline because it won't get much better today ^_^
I'm settling for a fivefold increase in potency for the Ascorbic method. I've got a sense of "enough is enough" that signifies a good-strength trip so I won't go in a second time tonight (I was planning on lemon) I'd have a tolerance anyway.

I'm completely blown away by the effectiveness of this pH 2 ascorbic mushroom concoction.

I'd love it if somebody would verifyu this *exact* experiment, but I know my responses and know what I just went through :heart:


.


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Edited by Asante (10/04/05 01:39 PM)

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OfflineMrMolotov
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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4753158 - 10/04/05 07:38 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I will be doing an experience with 2 g's and 1 oz offresh squeased lemon juice this weekend. will let you know the results.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: MrMolotov]
    #4753793 - 10/04/05 10:54 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

For *%$^&$# sake don't take 2gr!!

Umm if what happened to me on ascorbic (see above - its updated) happen to you that 2gr might fold open to feel just like 8gr or higher.

Proceed with caution: you can actually bump your head against the ceiling of what you can handle!


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: Asante]
    #4753932 - 10/04/05 11:22 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: ]
    #4754029 - 10/04/05 11:48 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Judging from the size of them (about 3-4 inch) I would say they were off a grain substrate. No telltale specks of vermiculite though, and it being Dutch commercial mushrooms I'd say prolly WBS.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4754559 - 10/04/05 01:53 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The friend I talked about just informed me he drank his concoction at 21:30h



EXPERIMENT -- 0.5gr Psilocybe cubensis in 100ml lemon/orange juice

The liquid: 50ml homemade orange juice combined with 50ml storebought lemon juice (1:1) approximate pH 3

The mushrooms: same as described in my above experiment, half a gram grain-grown P.Cub.

The concoction: The powdered mushrooms were added to the mixed juices and left standing for two minutes.

The subject: Has drank alcohol last night, has not touched food since a tiny meal 3 1/2 hours ago.



THE TEST:

21:30h -- drank the concoction.
+3min -- distinct alert, went off meditating, will report later.
+30min -- distinct closed eye visuals
01:00h -- talks about a "hard wave" and difficulty typing, drinks soup
01:20h -- likens the strength of effect to the 2gr mushrooms of same batch consumed two weeks earlier a fourfold increase in potency again some 20min after "eating"
01:30h -- announces he'll take an hour or so of meditation in darkness
02:00h -- he was watching visuals and estimated it 1.5-2gr, or 3-4x


LIVE TEST -- WILL REPORT LATER ON


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Edited by Asante (10/04/05 03:42 PM)

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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4754586 - 10/04/05 01:58 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

essh, WBS mushrooms? those are the only shrooms ive ever taken that make me feel like im going to die or be killed, though they have been the most potent shrooms ive ever gotten. definitely wouldnt take those with any potentiator.

I wouldnt tell people to take no more than 1gr, hell i took 3.5g with cranberry and although it got pretty intense, it wasnt totally out of control. I do agree about the 4X-5X potentiation. The 3.5 i took felt like if i had taken 15g's or so.

I find it hard to believe that vitamin C can bring the PH of distilled water down to 2. I cant even get the PH down to 3 using phos acid, but thats just due to the logarithmic PH cap of it. Still, the only acid i know of that can get water down to a PH of 2 is muriatic. Perhaps you should retest the PH of your asorbic water.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: yousuck]
    #4754645 - 10/04/05 02:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Yup, a 5% ascorbic acid solution in distilled water has pH 2, check your merck index on it to save you some calculations.
As seen by the figures quoted above even lemon & lime juice is around that pH. If only mineral acids can get you there, your pH meter is broken :wink:

Quote:

I wouldnt tell people to take no more than 1gr, hell i took 3.5g with cranberry and although it got pretty intense, it wasnt totally out of control. I do agree about the 4X-5X potentiation. The 3.5 i took felt like if i had taken 15g's or so.





:eek: I dunno about your tolerance or your mushrooms but 15gr P Cub will blow the average user to shite! The average shroomerite uses about two-thirds of 1/8oz for a run-of-the-mill trip. We are talking about dried mushrooms, are we?

Quote:

they have been the most potent shrooms ive ever gotten. definitely wouldnt take those with any potentiator.




You can if you dose very conservatively. I did (0.25gr) and still got hit HARD, as you can see by my descriptions of effects. I'm very sensitive to mushrooms.


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Edited by Asante (10/04/05 02:10 PM)

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OfflineLazyCrash
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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4754816 - 10/04/05 02:38 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I should have fucking saved some shrooms!!!!

...or A shroom for that matter!

THIS IS SIMPLY AMAZING

I consider The Shroomery blessed to have a thread like this created.


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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4754867 - 10/04/05 02:47 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Good work Wiccan_Seeker. I plan on redoing your experiment Sunday night.

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OfflineManninee
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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4755235 - 10/04/05 04:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

OK - So ASCORBIC ACID is a potentiator. I guess we need to try citric and tartaric acids too (other fruit/berry acids) and do a control with 5% acetic acid (vinegar, y'all!). There's gonna be a bunch of people looking like Wile-E-Coyote on Alum!

The big question - Does any acid act as a potentiator? Or is it just the ascorbic acid (vitamin C - known, by the way, to interfere with the function of parts of the p450 liver enzyme ladder)

Check out this link from a :sun: crank(y) chemistry board:

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=12967

Edited by Manninee (10/04/05 05:06 PM)

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OfflineManninee
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Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: Manninee]
    #4755437 - 10/04/05 05:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

There are several different ways that ascorbic acid/vit c and the chemicals in fruit juices might enhance the passage and/or activation of psilocybin:

(i) The Vitamin C transporter molecules in gut cells: People know that ascorbic acid is transported 'actively' in the gut (ie - by cellular machinery... specialised proteins) but as I understand, nobody has yet identified these molecules in gut, although they have been found elsewhere in the body. Many transporter molecules absorb more than one molecule simultaneously, and some chemicals enhance the absorbtion of others. Maybe Psilocybin and Vitamin C are co-transported, with the ascorbic acid facilitating the uptake of psilocybin?

(ii) The ascorbic acid functionally interferes with the detoxifying enzymes - Monoamine Oxidases and the family known as cytochrome P450. Citrus flavonoids enhance the absorbtion of vitamin C as well as blocking some aspects of the P450 enzymes (many health food chains sell Vit C/Flavonoid combination pills). These enzymes are in gut cells, the liver and elsewhere.

(iii) The other mechanism for prolongation could be the anti-oxidative properties of vitamin c interfering with the dephosphorylation of psilocybin to psilocin somehow - possibly making it a more gradual process.

Either way, little is known about the mechanisms of vitamin C action.
It certainly seems to work if Wiccan Seeker's experimental result is true.

However, the flavonoid argument also cannot be overlooked as it based on pre-existing scientific evidence of drug potentiation. Many people use chocolate to bring a trip on faster - It works for me, and there's no acid in chocolate (just flavonoids!).

Perhaps ascorbic acid and flavonoids both get the same effect in different ways?

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Manninee]
    #4755451 - 10/04/05 05:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

HM maybe I will lower my dose to.75g
didn't read the post above mine till just now Cu's i was in a hurry with the last dose.
i will try with acetic acid from Heinze vinegar.
you know would balsamic vinegar work? because balsamic tastes much much better or how about pickle juice for that matter?

EDIT: about what substrate these shrooms were from the same batch as my hero dose 10g's very potent might reconsider dropping dose to .50 but as of now i am capping it at .75 max


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Edited by MrMolotov (10/04/05 06:12 PM)

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: MrMolotov]
    #4755496 - 10/04/05 06:03 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Damn, I was going to try this with 2 grams this weekend.  That number just dropped to 1 gram.  Good stuff! :grin:


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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Holydiver]
    #4755516 - 10/04/05 06:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

yea i will do .75 if i don't get my perfect conditions 1 gram if i get everything just right.
hm i wonder if 20 or 30 mg of adderall would also help intensify the effects because adderall would speed up your heart rate and with the hypothesis that more psilocin is in your blood stream that the adderall would speed its distribution to your brain maybe inducing a faster steeper come up? will experiment after i successfully complete the 1 g in vinegar trip.


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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: Manninee]
    #4755527 - 10/04/05 06:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks to everyone who has tried it and can verify it.  I know from experience that this works.  For those that have tried fruit juices in the past and aren't really agreeing, I can only ask that you try to recompare strengths between eaten and drank doses.  For the drinking doses, I ask that you recompare strengths between different liquids.  I have taken 12g dry of my personally grown rye/poo shrooms mixed with a milkshake and it barely felt like 2 grams eaten to me.  I have mixed with water, pop, and alcohol on different occasions and noticed a twofold effect if I was lucky, usually like 1.5 the eaten dose.  Orange and grapefruit always seemed to be twofold and above increase from eaten.  Cranberry seemed to increase the strength even further.  My friends and I have switched permanently to cranberry, because there is no doubt to any of us that it is way better(over 20 people).  I finally tried lemon/lime last week and it was way stronger than cranberry.  This is all just from my own experiences and what I have observed from them.  My near 3gram first experience with lemon/lime felt like I had taken 15, and I was much higher than I had ever been.  Like 2-3 times higher lol, and since I wasn't expecting it, it almost got out of control.  Now that I have tried it again, with a much smaller dosage, I am 100% sure that it definitely increases the effects by a factor of 3x or more.  If you try it, you will know too lol. 

Thanks Wiccan for getting the community involved more and actually trying yourself.  From your post on pHs you did, I am thinking lime maybe the fruit of choice.  pH of 1.8-2.0 and limes yield a lot of juice compared to a lemon.  After a few weeks of not tripping, I will try a pure lime juice mix and see if I can notice anymore increase.

As I said in my first post, be careful when trying this, don't do something like taking the most you ever did and trying it with this method.  That would be extremely dangerous imo.  You would probably be best doing 1/4-1/3 of your normal amount.  After experience, you will be able to figure out your proper dose correctly, that is what I plan to do.  This makes level 5 easily obtainable now, but may show some people that they don't really want to go there.  So trip responsibly everybody :smile:


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Edited by Underhillmaster (10/04/05 06:13 PM)

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Offlineslammin007
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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4755765 - 10/04/05 07:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Another thought, since psilocybin and psilocin are alkaloids, they are not water soluble until the pH is lowered ( water becomes acidic).
When the pH is changed to acidic, the alkaloids will dissolve in water in a salt form. Alkaloids are, however, soluble in alcohol. Could we get a similar effect by soaking or mixing the shrooms in some vodka and taking a shot?

Perhaps the reason that the stomach acid doesn't potentiate effects is because gastric juice doesn't have as much time to act on the chewed shrooms filled with saliva before they leave the stomach and enter the intestines where they are neutralized.

Seems that pre-extracting the compunds into liquid makes it easier and is faster to absorb in the intestine.

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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: slammin007]
    #4756120 - 10/04/05 09:01 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

well, i guess the next step would be for someone to take an asorbic acid shrooms mixture, then a week later take a cranberry or lemon shroom mixture and compare their relatively effectiveness. I honestly think vitamin C by itself cannot be as effective as cranberry juice which contains a helluva lot more chemicals to aid in the process.

You must remember that our bodies absorbtion of artifical vitamin C is 8X less effective than natural vitamin C. Chances are the pills your using are artifical. Better include that info in your trip reports.

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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: yousuck]
    #4756336 - 10/04/05 09:41 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

just some info i know for a fact that vitamin C makes for a stronger trip because one of the things that asorbic (acid vitamin c)does is break down tryptomine making for a stronger harder faster trip hence why drinking orange juice can give you a slightly harder trip but im just speaking from an anatomical point of view

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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: doesntmattermuch]
    #4756497 - 10/04/05 10:04 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

this shit is crazy. when i read the origional account i thought it was bullshit and now different people are trying and getting the same results. What? getting a 2 gram trip from .25? amazing! this may well be a revolution in the psychedelic community. I'm def gonna try this for my next trip. mad props underhillmaster.


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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: Dimmy]
    #4756872 - 10/04/05 11:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

i want to try this badly, but i dont want to east 1-2gs this way, then not be at the level i want to be at and have try to up the dose later in the trip(which is a waste in my opinion. i usually think i wont eat more to try to re-up a trip, but when im tripping, i just dont think straight


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slapped together theory #1 [Re: the_psychonaut]
    #4757394 - 10/05/05 01:02 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Acetic acid (Vinegar)plays a important part in metabolism.
Citric acid (lemon) plays little or ?? part in humans

Cranberry juice has a pH of 3.5
Psilocybin has a pH of 5.2

Psilocybin breaks down in the body to form Psilocin (the good stuff).
Psilocin is unstable in solutions, ESPECIALLY alkaline (Base)ones.

Psilocin is obtained by dephosphorylation (bonding of Phosphate) of psilocybin under strongly acidic or alkaline conditions.

*****So my theory goes like this;
Acidic drinks helps to "prep" the Psilocin for consumption by extracting Psilocybin & Psilocin into a highly acidic solution.

This solution has the Psilocin released in a liquid form so that is what hits you first like a shotgun I assume. The Psilocybin will have to be broken down into psilocin by your body, but that has a kick start due to the Psilocybin being in a "free form" liquid and the high acidity.

Also the concentrations of Psilocin alkaloids extracted with acetic acid (.25) were over 2x that of methanol extraction (.11) for P. cubensis.

Means stronger kick if not a shorter one I suppose, any reports on durations?

And for the final challenge for those with no taste buds left, try using vinegar to see if this helps to improve the experience.

Disclaimer: no test or experiences just an overactive mind with the Internet at my disposal and an anal personality, 'nuff said.

Edited by cornoir (10/05/05 01:19 AM)

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4757563 - 10/05/05 03:01 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

There definately is something going on beyond placebo here!



Actually you can't conclude that just like that, it could be very well a strong placebo effect. Even if it is placebo it's great that it works so well :thumbup:

What I'm trying to say is don't jump on any conclusions since you can't be really sure to make any. Everyone who tried this has read this thread and results are therefore biased. They think they're going to trip harder and maybe because of that they trip harder!(placebo)

Important!We also need people to try this out without knowing it (control group) and when they say themselves that the trip was stronger than usual (without asking them, wich may lead to false recollection of trip memory.*example: "Dude, whas this the strongest trip ever or what!? Well, now I think of it... it maybe was!". If it's really that much stronger they will tell you without having to ask them! :cool:). If they also report much stronger effects than we really might be on to something.

Not trying to bring a downer to this experiment, just trying to make it a better one :wink:

In the mean while keep doing this, as long as it works for you it's totally worth playing around with it :laugh:

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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: the_psychonaut]
    #4757566 - 10/05/05 03:05 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

STANDARDIZED PROCEDURE for EXPERIMENTING

--Empty Stomach (at least 3 hours with no food)
--Dried powdered mushrooms soaked for 15 minutes in 1-3 fl. oz. liquid
--Eating/drinking (glass of milk) at 1-1:30 hours into it (optional)


FLUIDS -- NATURAL STANDARDS
--Lime juice pH 2.0-2.35 (FDA)
--Lemon juice pH 2.0-2.6 (FDA)
--Cranberry juice pH 2.3-2.5 (FDA)
--Vinegar pH 2.4-3.4 (FDA)
--Grapefruit juice pH 2.9-3.25 (FDA)

FLUIDS -- ACID STANDARDS
--Ascorbic acid 5% pH 2.0 (MERCK)
--0.1N Citric acid 2% pH 2.2 (MERCK)
--0.1N Tartaric acid 1.5% pH 2.2 (MERCK)
--0.1N Ascorbic acid 1.75% pH 2.3 (MERCK)
--0.1N Acetic acid 0.6% pH 2.9 (MERCK)
fluids must be prepared as grams/milliliter from destilled/demineralized water and the corresponding food grade acids.

MUSHROOMS -- PSILOCYBIN STANDARD
a sample of well-dried Psilocybe cubensis must be ground to a well-mixed fine powder and stored airtight, preferably refrigerated or frozen. Each gram will have about equal potency and can be used across experiments to compare relative strengths. Given the currently reported potentiation ratio of 2-5x it is advisable to take 1/4 of the usual amount for those more reluctant to overshoot the mark and 1/3 of the usual amount for those more reluctant to fall short of the target.

PREPERATION OF THE CONCOCTION
the correct amount of acids is dissolved in the proper amount of water without residue. The recommended amount of liquid to prepare for one dose is 1-3 fluid ounces: less may not suffice and more liquid may dilute the mushroom extract too much and cause unneeded stomach discomfort. The mushroom powder is stirred into the liquid to avoid lumping and the liquid is left to steep for 15 minutes. If multiple doses are prepared it is crucial to divide the neat juice or acidic liquid into portions and add weighed amounts of mushrooms to them seperately to avoid uneven distribution of 4-HO-DMT. The concoction is not filtered.

USE OF THE CONCOCTION
After a 15 minute steep the concoction is drank at once on an empty stomach. It is preferable to not have eaten anything in over three hours and not to have drank water within 1:30 hour prior to dosing.
After 1-1:30 hours a light snack and fluids can be taken to dilute the acidic stomach contents, for instance a glass of milk or a sandwich with a glass of water. If the snack is light a booster dose can be taken between 3-4 hours after dosing for prolongation of the peak.

MINIMAL NOTES TO TAKE
--composition and quantities of the concoction's ingredients. If you don't have scales you can use 2-4 tablespoons of a juice listed above and a volume or division of mushroom powder you can compare with what you usually take. Thimbles make good standards for eyeballing mushroom powders. A statement like "I took half a thimble but it felt like two" although not as accurate as weighing still provides useful information.
--empty stomach & the optional snack taken
--with how much mushrooms the strength compares on 00:30-01:00-02:00 of the experiment and preferably more often, offset by an estimation after the effect has cleared
--prior drug use in the three days preceding or a week if it was heavy use
--typical and unusual observations objective and subjective


Be very careful not to overshoot the mark and don't use nonfood acids, acidities stronger than pH 2 nor large quantities thereof. Use common sense and prepare your doses in advance if you plan on redosing. It is proven to work so do not bump your head against the ceiling of what you can handle. Bring Underhillmaster a pie for his revolutioonary invention and thorough research. Proceed with caution and at your own risk!


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OfflineAnnom
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4757572 - 10/05/05 03:10 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

General reply

Good thread. I'm following this for a while now and it gets really interesting.

Before I say something about the value of your experiences, I have to say that I don't think you all aren't honest about your experiences. I'm just a bit skeptic because I've read a lot about doing research and placebo effect/power of the mind.

If we approach this scientific, we can only get indications of what might be the case. We can't draw conclusions from a few non-double-blind personal experiments that are influenced in some way or another by wishful thinking, confirmation bias, placebo effect, selective thinking and subjective validation.

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: stefan]
    #4757582 - 10/05/05 03:19 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Stefan, you're right ofcourse but a fivefold increase in potency is very unlikely to be placebo only, i'm pretty trained at what 0.25gr can do and this was so far off the mark it wasnt even funny :wink:

I know it is VERY unlikely but by now its very probable something is going on. Underhillmaster is experienced for more than 20 years and 100 trips and did trials on 20 acquantances for 6 months and the responses were uniform. Some initial critics here gracefully ate their words after experimenting. You don't often see that. I'm a veteran myself and got a forceful trip off a treshold dose.

We cant be sure yet but I'm a believer. How about trying it yourself and becoming a Bodysnatcher too? :evil:


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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Annom]
    #4757585 - 10/05/05 03:21 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm going to try this with 1.5g today  :laugh:

or 1g  :smirk:

Edited by Annom (10/05/05 03:22 AM)

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4757595 - 10/05/05 03:30 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Hi wiccan :smile:

It's very probably that something is going on, but we can't be sure is what I was saying. Please keep the idea of a control-group in mind (see my post above) to make it a better experiment.

I'll probably try it :cool:
...but I still don't feel like tripping yet since  this trip in the summer vacation :smirk: It is slowly starting to itch again though, so in a while I'll be ready for a new psychedelic adventure :grin:


PS have fun Annom!! *will be sending good vibes your way tonight!* :laugh:

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Annom]
    #4757604 - 10/05/05 03:34 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

*closes blast doors* 1.5 grams you say?

Annom, may I ask you to repeat the Ascorbic experiment? You can get 1gr TR vitamin C at the Kruidvat which you can crush and dissolve in hot water (5 to 100ml, use half - you know) if you lack ascorbic acid powder. Many local supermarkets have knijpcitroenen (yellow for lemon, green for lime) should you not find fresh lemons/limes.

Please make notes in advance before you take your dose, so we can puzzle together what happened to you while you are doing same at a more fundamental level :grin:

Zet m op Annom  :thumbup: :thumbup:


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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Asante]
    #4757609 - 10/05/05 03:45 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, I was already planning to repeat your experiment. I have 250mg vit C pills. I will take 1g cubes.

What kind of notes do you want me to make before I take my dose?

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Annom]
    #4757618 - 10/05/05 04:01 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The usual stuff, preparation specifics and such stuff easily washed away by a forceful trip. (and I hope you'll get one)
Remember that probably pH = k3y so water intake must be limited too as part of the "empty stomach". Also look whether or not the pill binders etc won't interfere with pH or absorption. (6 pills to make 30ml is alot of excipients) What are your usual shrooming amounts?

BON VOYAGE! I hope you'll have quite the ride!


My snack at 1:15h consisted of two worstebroodjes and a drink consisting of 200ml Sprite (lemon & lime drink!) and 200ml water.
I believe it somehow helped potentiate the effects further but that might well be placebo as I was already on the rise.


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Edited by Asante (10/05/05 04:06 AM)

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Asante]
    #4757645 - 10/05/05 04:36 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, will do!

I will test the pH with lakmoespapier (pH paper).

I usually take 3-4g. I'm still experimenting with different doses though. I've always had 'control' over my trips so far so I'm confident 1g is not too much. The mushrooms are from a commercial shop where I always buy my mushrooms if I have to buy them. They have always been good and more or less the same potency. 

I'll ingest the mushrooms in a few hours, go to the forest, take a GPS to make sure I won't get lost, bring a notebook to make notes, bring some valium just for feeling confident(won't take it, 99.9% sure), look at the trees and have a journey trough my mind and nature :smile:

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OfflineaNewPerception
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Annom]
    #4758143 - 10/05/05 09:12 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

my hardest shroom trip ever was on half an eighth of some small shrooms. i had just eaten a big ass bowl of spaghetti.
the shrooms were small, so i just broke them into pieces, balled the tissue up and swallowed them like pills (idunno about u guys but the taste of shrooms makes me gag.. it usually takes me 20-30 min to eat an 8th). i used gatorade to wash them down, and it hit me in 10-15 minutes.
level 5 trip, witht he confusion ego loss and all.
kinf of similar to ur fast acting lemon juice.

iono just my 2 sense.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Annom]
    #4758150 - 10/05/05 09:14 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm back from my experiment.

First result: 1g with ascorbic acid was not stronger than 1g, in my experience.

I'm coming down now so I'll report back later with more details.

I had a wonderful trip though  :smile:

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
    #4758475 - 10/05/05 10:38 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If the acidity helps break down/digest the shrooms

It doesn't. I had an acid reflux condition and was given something that reduced/destroyed all the acid in my stomach. I asked whether this would affect my digestion and the doctor said the acid has nothing whatsoever to do with digestion. It's enzymes that digest your food.

My take is that the "Lemon juice" is pure placebo.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Alex213]
    #4758669 - 10/05/05 11:17 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, enzymes digest the food, but these enzymes can function only in a highly acidic environment. That's why we have a strong acid in our stomach.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Alex213]
    #4758675 - 10/05/05 11:18 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Ill give this a go on my next flush but here is what i can come up w/ on whats happening here. Whenever you eat/take any drug on an empty stomach you will trip harder and it will come on faster. My guess is that the lemon juice is extracting the psilocin into liquid form (obviously going to digest quicker) therefore hit you even quicker than in solid form. And as far as more potent i haven't done any research on this but Ive always heard Vitamin C increases your trip, so maby thats the reason for seemingly increased potency

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: ixitwistedixi]
    #4758734 - 10/05/05 11:31 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Annom, try 1g with cranberry juice in a few days. I dont know why everyone is taking lemon juice or vitamin C. If you read the other bioflavinoid post on the forum you would know that not all citrus contains bioflavinoids, and not all of what contains bioflavinoids have a high enough amount to do anything IE orange juice.

Were talking about a disabling of enzymes that break down psilocin, not simply assisting the existing enzyme's or aiding the digesting process. You wont get a 2X-5X potentation due to simply aiding your digestive system, its obviously a case of inhibiting an enzyme that would otherwise metabolize what you ingest.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: yousuck]
    #4758824 - 10/05/05 11:46 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Were talking about a disabling of enzymes that break down psilocin




We got two going theories: the bioflavonoid hypothesis and the acidity hypothesis. I myself had an acid without additives work for me, it even rammed as hard as it did in any trial described.

Quote:

You wont get a 2X-5X potentation due to simply aiding your digestive system, its obviously a case of inhibiting an enzyme that would otherwise metabolize what you ingest.




An intravenous injection of a few mg of Psilocybin can rock your world, which means that if the digestive system can be given a boost, 2-5x potentiation is perfectly possible and still not close to IV injection.

And maybe your holy grail enzyme (which might indeed exist) is blocked by carboxylic acidity. We should try anything helpful but the focus lies on the Cranberry, Lemon & Lime juices of the initial post.


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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Annom]
    #4758854 - 10/05/05 11:53 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

First result: 1g with ascorbic acid was not stronger than 1g, in my experience.
I'm coming down now so I'll report back later with more details.
I had a wonderful trip though





Great you had a wonderful trip!!
But not so great it diodnt work out for you.
Chill out after a day wellspent.. But THEN we want all the details! :evil:


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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Asante]
    #4759117 - 10/05/05 01:09 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I believe that these experiences are not related to vitamin C or acids of any kinds. I am starting to believe that psilocybin/psilocin in liquid form is what is causing this. If you go to erowid and you read experiences with tea, most will say that they are well into the trip after 20 minutes. I have personally drank tea containing mushrooms, tea leaves, and water and have been tripping within 15 minutes.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Annom]
    #4759180 - 10/05/05 01:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
Yes, I was already planning to repeat your experiment. I have 250mg vit C pills. I will take 1g cubes.




How did you take the mushrooms? With just the vitamin C, or did you use lemon juice as well? Did you grind the mushrooms up?

I highly doubt this has anything to do with vitamin C. Many people take vitamin C before a trip, but I've never heard of anyone claiming it to be twice as strong or more than usual. Some people claim vitamin C does something, and some people claim it does nothing. I don't think anyone has claimed vitamin C to produce a drastic change.

I think the vitamin C thing is just placebo.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4759228 - 10/05/05 01:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Heres my two cents....

Okay I dont have a whole lot of experience with mushrooms (5 times at doses ranging from .75- 1.5 grams, had a trobuled experience with ayahuasca so I have been wading gently into mushrooms for the past 8 months or so).

Anyway on the last time I tripped I had recently purchased a coffee grinder and had heard that grinding the mush results in a quicker come on.....what an understatement. I ended up pretty much having effects that the poster of this topic experienced at just 1.5 grams.

Trying to remeber what I had to drink to wash down the powder with...I`m near positive it was a citrus flavored vitamin water. Might this explain my effects?

So I`m guessing people dont just have those kind of effects off simply grinding them? Is it indeed the acidity?

I`m really interested in this and someday soon will experiment with lemon juice...on my next trip sometime this month.


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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Chemical_Bliss]
    #4759332 - 10/05/05 02:09 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The original poster of this topic said he ground up mushrooms and used a liquid to extract the psilocybin from the mushrooms. From this and what I have read I can use the evidence to say the following.

Here is my two cents: Since psilocybin isn't extracted very efficiently using water, and is commonly extracted using acetic acid ( vinegar) link the ascorbic acid (Vit C) helps with extraction proccess.

There is no proof or reason that ascorbic acid would potentiate the effects of psilocybin.

I believe the real reason and only reason for potentiated effects are from faster absorbant rates because the psilocybin is now in liquid form. Much faster into the blood stream.

Vitamin C is not a potentiator;all that is happening is the body is recieving psilocybin/psilocin at a faster rate causing a trip which is more intense and of less duration.

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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4759342 - 10/05/05 02:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, I have been doing a lot thinking about this. I appreciate all the people who are contributing to this little experiment. I see a lot of people mentioning that this is maybe a placebo effect. It is my opinion that over the course of decades and over a hundred trips, I have become a very good judge of the strength of different doses, done a variety of different ways. Not to say that placebos dont have an effect on me, but I do believe it is very minimal. I have always been able to quantify the level of my trip, and when compared with dosing amounts and methods over time, gives me a decent overview of such. I realize that my trips are not your trips etc, etc. Over the course of time, I have noticed a very definable trend in my own experiences. Drinking in a milkshake was the weakest way I ever found to do them. Followed in strength by eating dry shrooms. Next would be eating fresh shrooms. Next would be water and soda mixes. After that would be orange juice and apple juice. Even stronger still in my experience is making shroom tea. The only methods I have found stronger than tea is grapefruit juice, cranberry, and then lemon/lime. This is all just from my personal experiences. I can't post all my trip journals lol, but needless to say I have done personal research for years. Every single person I know personally who has tried cranberry juice has had the same experience as I, and only do them that way now. They are all waiting for my next pick to try lemon/lime, and I will be able to give you their opinions of that at a later time.

After reading all the posts a few times, and doing some research, I have come up with my current working theory on what is going on lol. I am starting to think that a combination of factors are contributing to the effects. Almost all people can agree that powdered shrooms in a liquid solution will have increased effects from just that. So that contributes. Most people will also agree that you can extract psylocybin/psylocin from mushrooms with an acidic solution. So that process is begun as soon as you combine ingredients, instead of when the eaten shrooms would hit your stomach. This should mean that you have more of the active chemicals available for absorbtion while it is in your stomach. Throw in that fruit juices, specifically citrus fruits, are full of basic sugars, which are easily absorbed into the bloodstream. And then you can throw in the bioflavinoid factor. Certain enzymes are affected which allow for a greater 'first pass' absorption of the actve chemicals. So basically, you get the benefit of the shrooms being in a liquid solution, that is full of simple sugars, and very acidic which breaks down the chemicals into the solution giving you more actives available. Once this mixture hits your stomach, the bioflavinoid factor allows you to absorb more of the actives, which there are more of now since it is in acidic solution, and since the solution is also heavy with simple sugars, you are able to absorb everything as fast as possible. More actives in solution(due to extraction beginning in acidic solution) + ability to absorb more(bioflavinoid) + very easily absorbed liquid(mostly sugars)= new experience:)

That's just my thoughts atm. I would like to ask that anyone who continues the experiment, be as subjective as possible and do your best to eliminate the placebo effect. This also includes the opposite of the placebo effect, which would be being sure it won't work before you try it. Skepticism is to be expected, but I realize as much as most of you, that most of the best ideas come from the community. I know I wouldnt be able to grow my own if it wasnt for the cultivation forums here lol. Just try to be impartial and open minded.


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4759344 - 10/05/05 02:13 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If vitamin C is what is causing this, than you should be able to eat your mushrooms whole, and eat a vitamin C capsul disolved in water. If the effects aren't potentiated, vitamin C is out.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4759418 - 10/05/05 02:31 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

There is no proof or reason that ascorbic acid would potentiate the effects of psilocybin.




The reason for the experiment was to test the hypothesis that acidity and acidity alone could cause such a potentiation. The outcome was a 5x increase in potency. There's a reason and proof.

Quote:

I believe the real reason and only reason for potentiated effects are from faster absorbant rates because the psilocybin is now in liquid form.




Nope: I almost always use my mushrooms as tea (already in liquid form) and this was five times stronger as every single time i took this amount. The difference? pH 2 instead of 7.

Quote:

Vitamin C is not a potentiator;all that is happening is the body is recieving psilocybin/psilocin at a faster rate causing a trip which is more intense and of less duration.




If something causes an intensification of the trip it is in fact a potentiator. If something enhances the bioavailability it is a potentiator, whether its a simple fruit acid or a beta-carboline.

Let's not theorize without taking the observations into the equasion.


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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Asante]
    #4759528 - 10/05/05 03:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Wiccan_Seeker:

I am sorry, I have used the wrong word.

What I meant to say is that Vitamin C is not a catalyst.  Vitamin C is being used as an extraction tool and nothing more.  There is a big difference.  As I said above we could prove that vitamin C is not a catalyst by eating your mushrooms whole, and drink a vitamin C capsule disolved in water in between each bite of mushrooms.  If the effects aren't potentiated, vitamin C not a catalyst, but an extraction tool.

"The reason for the experiment was to test the hypothesis that acidity and acidity alone could cause such a potentiation. The outcome was a 5x increase in potency. There's a reason and proof."

There is no proof or reason in your experiment without further results. I am working with the facts, nothing more. When Annom repeated your experiment his results were completely different. Reading your posts from the beggining you sounded like you were very excited which makes me think placebo has effected your testing. I have experienced placebo's effects before and was suprised at the power they have! :lol: I do trust you in that you have had a lot of experience with the dose you took, but I also think placebo had its effects as well.


I am not trying to sound like a dick. I am all for this experiment and  am just trying to get the best facts to use for a conclusion of this.

Much love  :heart:

Edited by Rebirtha (10/05/05 03:10 PM)

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Offlinecornoir
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4759699 - 10/05/05 03:37 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Evan,
Go back a few postings to my last post about a possible theory (or parts thereof) that mentions liquid digestion as a possible factor in such quick acting effects of Psilocin.

Teas might not be the best option for liquid form though as Psilocin is not stable and quickly breaks down (mostly by heat but also by chemical reaction).

Psilocin is especially unstable in a alkali mix, water is pH 7.0, with baking soda added it can go as high as 8.3 (but why would you drink a base drink). So the more acidic (lower pH) the solution the longer the psilocin might remain in a liquid solution, thus more quantity to enter your system.

A simple test of 2 grams in a shot glass of water (pH 7)and one with cranberry juice (pH 3.5) and test it out on 2 "blind" subjects, record the results. Might want to even mix the 4 grams thoroughly to try and even the "effect" for both test.

But mind you I still think it might shorten duration, the flame that burns twice as bright, burns half as long.

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Offlinecornoir
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: cornoir]
    #4759736 - 10/05/05 03:54 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Crazy thought as a way of skipping ahead to expand our knowledge in this area.

What about bypassing the stomach acids altogether?

I remember a test with DMSO (Dimethyl Sulfoxide) and lemon juice. mix lemon juice and DMSO and touch it with your fingertip, within a minute you should taste lemon.

So if one was to mix a 1 gram dose mixed with enough lemon juice to make it slightly soggy then mix in a little DMSO, wait 5 seconds and touch it, theoretically it should affect you harder than say using just plain water to make the shroom paste. Theoretically.

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4759842 - 10/05/05 04:34 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Evan said:
Reading your posts from the beggining you sounded like you were very excited which makes me think placebo has effected your testing.




Can you really see a placebo effect causing something to be 4 or 5 times as strong though? That sounds pretty far fetched for placebo.

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4760186 - 10/05/05 06:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Don't you think that it is interesting that Annom had a views about how "wishful thinking, confirmation bias, placebo effect, selective thinking and subjective validation." and then repeated Wiccan_Seekers experiment and had no effects while Wiccan_Seeker who was excited about it had the 4 to 5 time effect? Also Wiccan_Seeker took .25 grams of mushrooms and said it felt like 1 gram. How does he know it didn't feel like .6 grams of mushrooms or .7? If it was .75 Then its only 3 imes the potency. He seemed pretty excited throughout his trip diary. Tripping while being excited could easily intensify the trip, especially if you feel you are part of a revolutionary process. Not very scientific at all.

The real deal is you can't 100% say that it FEELS like 4 to 5 times stronger, especially if you are dealing with small doses and with as many factors as we are dealing with.

I do think that Wiccan_Seeker had a more than average experience. I'm sure that extracting psilocybin with an acid such as the ones found in lemon juice, and taking it with a liquid on an empty stomach would intensify a trip. You cannot state as a fact though that it was 5 times stronger. We are only human we cannot judge this to that accuracy.

Edited by Rebirtha (10/05/05 06:45 PM)

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Offlineslammin007
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4760205 - 10/05/05 06:27 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Has anyone ever tried soaking / mixing shroom powder with some vodka or something? Since alkaloids are also soluble in alcohol, and alcohol is readily absorbed in the stomach and intestine then shouldn't we see similar effects to the acid solution?, That is if the acid solution is what is responsible.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4760273 - 10/05/05 06:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Where does he say that he repeated Wiccan Seeker's experiment?

I only see him saying he took the mushrooms with ascorbic acid, or vitamin C. I don't see any mention of lemon juice, or even that he crushed up the mushrooms.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4760285 - 10/05/05 06:53 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Both Wiccan Seeker and Annom used water and Ascorbic acid. Neither used lemon juice..maybe you were reading Wiccan Seeker's friends trip report that Wiccan Seeker posted.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4760292 - 10/05/05 06:56 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Huh.

Well that's weird. I wonder.

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4760322 - 10/05/05 07:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well, that certainly seemed to have thrown a wrench into a non-placebo explanation.

Maybe Annom did something slightly different than Wiccan Seeker. I guess we'll find out sooner or later.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4760366 - 10/05/05 07:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Yes I am eager to hear Annom's full report.

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OfflineStaypuft
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4760402 - 10/05/05 07:34 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I may be able to try this on saturday night with about a gram of cubs. Took about a gram last weekend with subtle effects, may been slight less than a gram. My scale was crapping out on me:(


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OfflineDimmy
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4760455 - 10/05/05 07:48 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

don't under estimate the power of placebo. a few friends and i once bought what we thought to be a vile of lsd, later that night several people dropped some of the suppossed acid and many claimed to have felt lite/threshold effects. it was suspected that it might just be very weak in potency. upon later dosing the lsd turned out to be completely bunk. i personally ingested about 15-20 drops with absolutly no result where several people at an earlier time clamed to feel lite effects. the power of placebo is really very strong and is not to be dismissed.


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Offlinehot48yearolds
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Dimmy]
    #4760489 - 10/05/05 08:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

It seems to me that the lemon/lime juices are only digesting the mushrooms so that when they get into the stomach it all goes into the blood stream at once. This creates a stronger, shorter trip.


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OfflineDimmy
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #4760500 - 10/05/05 08:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hot48yearolds said:
It seems to me that the lemon/lime juices are only digesting the mushrooms so that when they get into the stomach it all goes into the blood stream at once. This creates a stronger, shorter trip.




replace "digesting" with "extracting psilocybin from" and i agree.  :cool:


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InvisibleJackTackle
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #4760555 - 10/05/05 08:24 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hot48yearolds said:
It seems to me that the lemon/lime juices are only digesting the mushrooms so that when they get into the stomach it all goes into the blood stream at once. This creates a stronger, shorter trip.




exactly


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OfflineWillieTomg
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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: JackTackle]
    #4760620 - 10/05/05 08:40 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I've seen some reports, and that's enough testing for me.  All that remains is to test it out myself.  Some questions though...

)Are people letting the shrooms soak in the juice, or are they just mixing them and taking it down as fast as they can?

)Are there any particular recomendations for a dose?  When a shroomery mod tells me to stay away from a 2 gram dose then I get a little unsure of how to proceed...

)I've always liked how shrooms distort time to make it seem like the trip lasts a lot longer than it really does.  When you dose this way does the shorter duration (for lemon juice anyway) acutally SEEM shorter at the time, or will the experience be rewarding enough by itself that I won't care?  :cool:

)Is there a particular ratio of juice to shroom powder that pepole like best?  I'd rather not drink a pint of raw lemon juice if I could at all avoid it. :lol:


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InvisibleJackTackle
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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: WillieTomg]
    #4760664 - 10/05/05 08:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

what i've seen is people using about 1 or 2 fluid oz (double shot) of pure lemon/lime juice and ~1 gram

let the powder soak for a few minutes then slam it


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OfflineWillieTomg
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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: JackTackle]
    #4760698 - 10/05/05 08:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

One last question:

I'd rather not go through a hardcore lvl 5 trip if I could at all avoid it. (unless I get a trip sitter between now and the weekend) Would members here advocate a lower dose in the range of 1g. I've never really broken through on shrooms without weed, which muddies your thoughts so that you tend to trip hard if you get in a thought loop. Advice anyone?


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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: WillieTomg]
    #4760870 - 10/05/05 09:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I would try 1/3 of your normal fun trip dosage. If it goes beyond your fun range, you should still be able to deal with it and will be able to verify how it works for you.

I am reading a lot of people talking about placebo effect. Anyone who tries this method now, will have some preconceptions going in. They will either be very skeptical or be somewhat tentative. As for the original post, I hadnt tripped for 4 months before I tried lemon/lime for the first time, and I was expecting a very near cranberry type high. It was a lot stronger than cranberry, and it was totally unexpected. The 'placebo' effect only really applies when the end result is near your preconceived ideas. That was the case for me. As for Wiccan, I really appreciate his getting the community involved, but I don't actually know anybody who posts here. I think he lives in Europe hehe, I live in Oklahoma.

As we get a larger body of experience to draw from, we might be able to isolate exactly whats happening, or that it only works for some people, or who knows. Let's try not to argue, but contribute opinions and observations for community research project.


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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4760958 - 10/05/05 09:34 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If someone had some equipment to test with it would be alot easier to figure out what is going on. Like get a shot with cranberry juice and a shot with lemon juice let mushrooms soak for 5 mins then test the amount of psilo present to see if the acidity affects how fast it is extracted. I dunno just shooting some ideas.


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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: Stonerguy]
    #4761099 - 10/05/05 09:58 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I honestly dont think anyone here is going to figure out the exact cause of the potentation, unless their willing to get a couple test groups and perform a double blind study, documenting with detail and consistency, which many of the members apparently have a hard time doing. Speculation is just turning into symantics.

Hell, its probably a mix of biflavinoids, vitamin C, liquid extraction and acidity, but the fact remains that juices like cranberry and grapefruit have much more of these properties than mere vitamin C or lemon juice. It would simply be illogical if lemon juice or vitamin C out performed these fruit juices. If you want to hit all the possible areas, go with the fruit juices.

BTW, has anyone tried this with red wine? The scientific PDF report posted in the 'bioflavinoid' thread said this is just as effective as grapefruit.

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Re: Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: yousuck]
    #4761828 - 10/06/05 12:08 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Can someone do a blind study? Because I trust the "I took it and it was precisely 5 times stronger than a normal dose" reports about as far as I could throw King Kong.

Mix up 0.5, 1.0 and 1.5g and 2.0g of powdered mushrooms in lemon juice in different glasses, turn your back and have someone else hand a glass to you. If you can tell which glass you had 5 times out of 5 get back to us. Until then we're talking pure placebo.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4762579 - 10/06/05 05:10 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

My, my, there are more people fighting the findings than doing the experimenting.

Also Wiccan_Seeker took .25 grams of mushrooms and said it felt like 1 gram. How does he know it didn't feel like .6 grams of mushrooms or .7?

Because of my 100 trips and 12 years of experience?
Because there is a divide at the experiential 8-10mg area beyond which the effects can become overwhelming, and they did?
Because I know the strength of said batch?

He seemed pretty excited throughout his trip diary.

Might this excitement be caused by actually tripping balls, like alleged?

You cannot state as a fact though that it was 5 times stronger. We are only human we cannot judge this to that accuracy.

I've stated 4-5x because that was as low as I could get my estimations. Humans with alot of experience in said dose range are better able to make the call than those theorizing.
Might it have been placebo? Yes. Is this likely? Very unlikely.

People: let's not debunk this before it is properly tested. Almost every test in this thread was clearly positive, yet all of them are surrounded by posts claiming it is placebo.

Why couldn't Annom's response (he'll report later on he said) be a placebo downplaying of effects? It dissents after all from the majority of tests.

Let's actually test this, and from our own experience arrive at a better understanding. Let's not conclude that the observations were in error because we can't think up an explanation how it would work. That's how the world remained flat for hundreds of years.


Quote:

BLIND TEST TO CONFIRM OR DENY THE ACID & LEMON HYPOTHESIS
.
3 capsules of 1gr powdered Ascorbic Acid or Lemon Extract*
3 capsules of 1gr powdered Sugar
2 capsules of 0.25gr powdered Cubensis or other amount (loose powder)
2 identical containers/baggies
.
--the subject has an empty stomach of at least 3 hours without food or drink
--the sugar & Ascorbic caps are put in a container each
--the subject looks away and mingles them so he loses track of which is which
--the subject, still looking away, opens one container, takes the three caps and slams them swiftly with 2 fl oz of water and walks off not looking at the containers left behind
--the subject waits 5min, then slams the 2 mushroom caps with 1 fl oz of water
--the subject trips and tries to assess whether he had potentiation (acid) or not (sugar)
--afterwards he opens the second container and tastes the powder of the caps left behind to see if his assessment was correct
.
* For Lemon extract evaporate 2 fl oz lemon juice to dryness and spray both the lemon powder and the sugar powder with the essential oilsd from squeezing the lemon peels. This way both powders will reek of lemon, and taste of it when burping, keeping the test a blind. Hesperidin (the bioflavonoid involved) and citric acid will both survive evaporating the lemon juice to dryness.





Well, if we can get several people to do this we have our blind test :laugh: If i can find the time I'll do it myself and hopefully get a friend to join me in testing.


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Offlinestefan
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4762581 - 10/06/05 05:11 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Evan said:"The reason for the experiment was to test the hypothesis that acidity and acidity alone could cause such a potentiation. The outcome was a 5x increase in potency. There's a reason and proof."

There is no proof or reason in your experiment without further results. I am working with the facts, nothing more. When Annom repeated your experiment his results were completely different. Reading your posts from the beggining you sounded like you were very excited which makes me think placebo has effected your testing. I have experienced placebo's effects before and was suprised at the power they have! :lol: I do trust you in that you have had a lot of experience with the dose you took, but I also think placebo had its effects as well.




exactly, there is NO proof at all (yet)!

Annom had a nice trip ( :laugh: ) but didn't experiance any stronger effects. I'm pretty sure he didn't do anything wrong. :thumbup:

good luck everyone with all the testing :cool:

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Asante]
    #4763383 - 10/06/05 10:43 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

My, my, there are more people fighting the findings than doing the experimenting

It's just that for as long as I can remember people have been insisting taking orange juice KILLS a trip, not increases it. It's still standard advice in Holland mushroom shops - drink orange juice to kill a trip.

Because of my 100 trips and 12 years of experience?


I don't know wiccan. I've tripped hundreds of times and if someone said "If you can't tell the difference between 0.25g and 1g five times in a row we'll take your house away"...I'm not sure it's a bet I'd take. Sometimes I take very high doses and hardly trip at all, on others I've taken a small dose and tripped balls. Your setting and mood have a massive effect on how hard you percieve a trip.

Let's actually test this, and from our own experience arrive at a better understanding. Let's not conclude that the observations were in error because we can't think up an explanation how it would work. That's how the world remained flat for hundreds of years.


I'm all for testing. But it has to be testing blind. Reading a report that lemon juice makes you trip 5 times harder and then on your next trip drinking lemon juice and thinking it was 5 times harder too isn't evidence of anything but placebo.

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OfflineWillieTomg
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Alex213]
    #4763460 - 10/06/05 10:58 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'd pay more attention to the people who are reporting breaking through on 1.5 grams rather than Wiccan's low dose experiments. I'll try to test it myself this weekend if I get the chance. The last few times I tripped I ate 3.5g, and for some reason I didn't feel much beyond a lvl 2 or 3.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: WillieTomg]
    #4763489 - 10/06/05 11:04 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

It's all so subjective tho isn't it. A level 2 or 3 trip - it's purely subjective. The difference between 2 grams and 4 grams is purely subjective. Would anyone here bet $10,000 they could tell the difference 10 times out of 10 between 2 and 4 grams in a blind test? Because I'd take a peice of that action any day.

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OfflineNashbar
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Alex213]
    #4763608 - 10/06/05 11:24 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
It's all so subjective tho isn't it. A level 2 or 3 trip - it's purely subjective. The difference between 2 grams and 4 grams is purely subjective. Would anyone here bet $10,000 they could tell the difference 10 times out of 10 between 2 and 4 grams in a blind test? Because I'd take a peice of that action any day.




are you serious?

there's plenty of people around here with hundreds of trips under their belts. 2g to 4g is a big difference. 10/10 wouldn't really be difficult

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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Alex213]
    #4763623 - 10/06/05 11:27 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm confident I could tell the difference. The subjective feeling is based expontentially on how much one ingests. 4 grams is lightyears beyond 2 grams.


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OfflineManninee
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: cornoir]
    #4763632 - 10/06/05 11:29 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Note to cornoir - citric acid plays an important part in human metabolism, not acetic acid (otherwise we'd smell of vinegar).
The citric acid is derived as part of the metabolism of glucose (the Krebs cycle).

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4764035 - 10/06/05 01:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The subjective feeling is based expontentially on how much one ingests

Nah, I've tripped harder on 2 grams than I have on 5. Your mood and setting play a big part.

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Offlinesublime40oz
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Manninee]
    #4764038 - 10/06/05 01:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I will be joining in this experiment tonight or tomorrow night. I expect no discernible increase in the intensity of the trip. It just sounds preposterous to me, so therefore if I have a noticeably stronger trip it will not be placebo.


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Offlinecornoir
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Manninee]
    #4764791 - 10/06/05 04:10 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Acetic acid is used in the human body, just not enough to smell.
"Biochemistry
Acetic acid, when complexed with coenzyme A, is central to the metabolism and biosynthetic processes of almost all forms of life. It results naturally from the action of certain bacteria in foods or liquids containing sugars or ethanol.

As an example of its importance in biology, acetic acid is produced in the human body after the consumption of alcoholic beverages. The ethanol is first converted into acetaldehyde, which is then converted into acetic acid by the enzyme acetaldehyde dehydrogenase and converted further to acetyl-CoA by acetate-CoA ligase." - Wiki source

Citric acid from Wiki;
"The citric acid cycle (also known as the tricarboxylic acid cycle, the TCA cycle, or the Krebs cycle) is a series of chemical reactions of central importance in all living cells that utilize oxygen as part of cellular respiration. In these aerobic organisms, the citric acid cycle is a metabolic pathway that forms part of the break down of carbohydrates, fats and proteins into carbon dioxide and water in order to generate energy. It is the second of three metabolic pathways that are involved in fuel molecule catabolism and ATP production, the other two being glycolysis and oxidative phosphorylation.

The citric acid cycle also provides precursors for many compounds such as certain amino acids, and some of its reactions are therefore important even in cells performing fermentation."

So citric acid is a part of a cycle in humans as well as acetic acid.

I mention vinegar (for those crazy enough to try this) as it tend to have a pH lower than any fruit drinks mentioned 2-3 range, with more like 2.2 - 2.5 for balsamic vinegar.

So vinegar with a lower pH will keep the Psilocin from breaking down quickly as I absorb them in liquid suspension form. Whether it being an acetic acid versus a citric acid, it might help in some small way or not compared with citric acid bearing drinks.

I will try and do a blind test on some guinea pigs I have waiting to see if it does anything to them, but it will take a month or so for me mushy to grow up. I remember someone mentioned that they had no tastebuds anymore, perhaps that person could volunteer to do a simple test with vinegar to have an objective view.

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: cornoir]
    #4765070 - 10/06/05 05:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

OK I Have decided to do a 1oz shot with 1 gram of good shrooms ground finely if i can get my friend to trip sit for me. I have been trying to convince myself an have pretty much done so. that it will not potentate the trip my friend has agreed to try with a .25 gram with lemon juice i haven't told him it makes it stronger i just told him i only have .25 gram to spare. my plan will hopefully come to fruition sat night/afternoon.


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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: MrMolotov]
    #4765319 - 10/06/05 06:07 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well, even a placebo that magnifies the effects 3x-5x would be of some benefit.  Especially if it works for a large percentage of people.  I still think it works though.  For those that truly doubt, try taking your normal 'fun' dose(level 3?) using this method and then post your experience :smile:


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4765523 - 10/06/05 06:54 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)


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Offlinethe_psychonaut
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: ]
    #4765789 - 10/06/05 07:45 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

hmmmmmmmm.... should i try 5gs without the cranberry juice, or about 2, with it? im looking for full ego loss, lvl5. ive been working up to this point for a long time, and now i cant decide.


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Offlinehot48yearolds
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: the_psychonaut]
    #4765801 - 10/06/05 07:48 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

if you cant decide than id say you might not be ready.


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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #4765833 - 10/06/05 07:55 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

well, i know, that i can handle 5 grams, but i dont know if id be able to handle the 2grams with the cranberry. perhaps i should try the cranberry juice another time?


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: the_psychonaut]
    #4765844 - 10/06/05 07:56 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Do a couple grams with lemon juice. Why even try the cranberry juice when the lemon juice is supposed to be stronger?

I'd try it with an eighth.

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4765911 - 10/06/05 08:09 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

i swig down powdered shrooms with cranberry juice all the time and it adds no difference as far as i can tell.

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Shnezbit]
    #4766296 - 10/06/05 09:44 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Heh 5 grams is a lot of fun if your mentally and spiritiually ready i topok 6 one time for my 3rd trip last year at my moms had a total blast best experience on shrooms.
My biggest dose was 9.5-10ish and it was absolutely intense great till my friend made me go laydown and i freaked out bigtime.
they trip kicked my ass in the end. just make sure your good and ready and have a good friend or 2 guide you through it.


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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Shnezbit]
    #4766311 - 10/06/05 09:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

do 5 grams with the lemon juice. if your serious about getting to level 5 why not just jump in as far as u can and get a REAL level 5.


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Offlinecornoir
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Shnezbit]
    #4766350 - 10/06/05 09:52 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Okay I am including a lot of info with sources and links as best as I could to where I found this data.

basically it point to the thought that acetic acid would be the BEST at creating a fast acting more concentrated Psilocin kick to the mind. It will not increase the potency technically, more like CONVERT more Psilocybin to Psilocin and suspend it in a more stable medium for a user's consumption.

The pH of lemon juice(2) is lower than most vinegars(3), but still both lower than Psilocybin (5.2) [Psilocin pH = ???, anyone?].

No none of this matters if no one can swallow the stuff right? The acetic acid is present in vinegar, so I hope to find a palatable and inexpensive vinegar to try upon my test group, since it will be easier to get them to drink Cranberry or even lemon juice before vinegar.

Make sure to notice the Psilocin content from the acetic solution (table 2) vs. the methanol solution for P. cubensis = Double!!!
****************************************************************
Extraction and analysis of indole derivatives from fungal biomass
Journal of Basic Microbiology
Vol 34, 1994; 17-22
by Jochen Gartz
"The abstract says it, if you are planning to extract the alkaloids from either dries and pulverisized fruiting bodies or from mycelium it is best to use pure methanol. Superior to aqueous solutions of alcohols (which is wet alcohol, the one you are likely to have!) is dilute acetic acid which means simple vinegar (better: vinegar essence diluted with same amount of water) which is quite nice because there is no problem obtaining it. The problem with wet alcohol is that the enzymes which dephosphorylise Psilocybin to the instable Psilocin are also extracted from the biomass. This also occures with acetic acid but to a smaller amount and does not occure at all with pure methanol (ethanol?)."

Table 1 #Amount of indole alkaloids in fruiting bodies of different species by using pure methanol as solvent (%, dry weight).

Species Psilocybin Psilocin Baeocystin
P. semilanceata 0.98 - 0.34
P. bohemica 0.85 0.02 0.04
P. bohemica(cultivated) 0.93 0.04 0.02
P. cubensis 0.63 0.11 0.02
G. purpuratus 0.34 0.29 0.05
I. aeruginacens 0.40 - 0.21
P. cyanescens 0.32 0.51 0.02

Table 2 #Concentraction of alkaloids by using acetic acid for extraction of the dried mushrooms (%, dry weight).


Species Psilocybin Psilocin Baeocystin
P. semilanceata 0.97 0.15 0.11
P. bohemica 0.60 0.21 -
P. bohemica (cultivated) 0.65 0.28 -
P. cubensis 0.45 0.25 -
G. purpuratus 0.24 0.35 0.01
I. aeruginacens 0.32 0.05 0.15
P. cyanescens 0.20 0.61 -

Table 3 #Results of the mushroom extraction of six species using aqueous mixtures of methanol and ethanol (%, dry weight).


Species Psilocybin Psilocin Baeocystin
P. semilanceata 0.80 0.15 0.11
P. bohemica 0.60 0.21 -
P. bohemica (cultivated) 0.65 0.28 -
P. cubensis 0.45 0.25 -
G. purpuratus 0.24 0.35 0.01
I. aeruginacens 0.32 0.05 0.15
P. cyanescens 0.20 0.61 -

By using the new solvent mixtures containing ethanol and methanol for extraction it was found that more psilocin could be detected in extracts of every species but always smaller amounts of psilocybin than with pure methanol (Table 3).

Additionally, a high activity of enzymes of the phosphatase type could be detected in these aqueous solutions from all species. In contrast to these results only the extracts of P. cubensis and P. cyanescens showed a significant enzymatic activity b y using acetic acid as solvent. In these cases psilocybin was completely dephosphorylated to psilocin by heating the acid extracts and no baeocystin could be detected in P. cyanescens."
--------------------------------------
Shroomery Post I found concerning thoughts on vinegar powdered shroom mixes from 9/03
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/1911077
---------------------------------------
pH table listing some of our test drinks and other common foods/drinks
pH balance of Acids & Alkalines all around
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4.3 tomatoes (but healthy in moderation);
3.5 orange juice;
3 soda (all types & brands) . . . . . . . TOO ACIDIC
3 Alcohol (most types & brands) *more details later
3 vinegar;
2 lemon juice;
1 battery acid;
ACIDS are Low Ph numbers (2....)
--------------------------------------------------------------
THE MUSHROOM ENTHEOGEN
The Measure of the Mushroom
by C. B. Gold
Taken from PM&E Volume Five

..<snip>"I use an acetic acid-water extraction solution to help extract the psilocin and psilocybin more completely and also, to lower the pH so that the active tryptamines will be more stable.
Without the acetic acid the solution will quickly react with
atmospheric oxygen in the presence of endogenous enzymes to
form a strong blue product and in the process destroy some of
the psilocybin/psilocin. Also, the color blue itself will inter-
fere with the test results, since the reaction yields a blue or pur-
ple color for tryptamines. Specifically, psilocin yields a
brown-deep blue and psilocybin a yellow-green and purple
color. In contrast, LSD will react with DMAB to form a blue-
purple color.(l7)

Apparently, others have also found that a dilute acetic acid
solution is an excellent solvent for both psilocin and psilocy-
bin. Not only does the solution completely extract both trypta-
mines but the solution extracts other interfering substances to
a lesser degree. Casale also notes that if one heats the extrac-
tion solution of dilute acetic acid to 70 degrees centigrade for
ten minutes, then the psilocybin is completely converted by
dephosphorylation to psilocin.(5)

I have found on my own that heating the acetic acid solution
eliminated whatever bluing reaction was occurring in the
enzyme denaturing environment of the low pH extraction solu-
tion. That psilocybin is converted to psilocin is a plus, too."

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OfflineMrMolotov
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: cornoir]
    #4766444 - 10/06/05 10:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Now that would be a crazy dose if it was potentiated by 5x it would be like taking 25 grams absolute insanity if you ask me.


--------------------


OI OI OI

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Offlinedeficitism
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4767572 - 10/07/05 03:59 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well I did it. The lemonade tek I came up with WORKS. I received the same EXACT high level trip as my previous report with lemon juice. Here is what I did:

1- 1.5 Grams of PC Amazon was ground up to a very fine powder.
2- 30 ML of pure squeezed lemon juice was put into a glass
3- The mush powder was placed into a mason jar and the lemon juice was added to the mix.
4- The jar was sealed and shaken vigorously
5- The jar was left overnight and was shaken the next day 3-4 times.
6- The above step was repeated every day for 3 days.
7- The mush mix was filtered through a coffee filter
8- The resulting lemon juice was kept refrigerated
9- The mush material was soaked in a mason jar with 20 ML distilled h20 and shaken every hour or so for about 12 hours. (I used the water to get the remaining alkaloids out of the mush mix since the actives in mushrooms are water soluble.)
10- The mush was then filtered out with a coffee filter and discarded. Keeping the resulting water solution.
11- The water mix and the lemon mix were mixed together to create a lemonade shot.
12- The 50 ML of solution was placed in an airplane alcohol bottle.

Check out my previous report on this thread. I can tell you that these results were ABSOLUTELY reproduced to the T. Fast come on, powerful peak, amazing visuals. This was a great extraction and I have already started to make more doses this way. I suck at posting specifics but feel free to PM me or IM me any questions you may have. (My AIM name is in my profile)


--------------------
"Someday after mastering the winds, waves, tides and gravity, we shall harness the energies of love, and then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will discover fire." -Teilhard de Chardin

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Offlinedeficitism
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: deficitism]
    #4767573 - 10/07/05 04:01 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Let me add that my next concoction will be without the water in the mix. Just pure lemon juice.


--------------------
"Someday after mastering the winds, waves, tides and gravity, we shall harness the energies of love, and then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will discover fire." -Teilhard de Chardin

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: deficitism]
    #4768633 - 10/07/05 11:19 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I wonder what would happen if the lemon juice was heated first.

Like making tea, only with lemon juice. I've heard heat converts psilocybin into psilocin (I have no sources on this and am not even sure if it's true). Maybe it would be even more effective.

Edited by HeavyToilet (10/07/05 11:20 AM)

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Offline8BitCommando
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4769347 - 10/07/05 01:35 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I've been interested in this thread. I'm skeptical, but the worst that can happen is a normal trip. I gathered a large load of copes and cubes yesterday, and I'll be taking them out of the dehydrator and grinding them into powder shortly. I'm going to try this and see what happens.

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Offlinecornoir
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4769466 - 10/07/05 02:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"Casale also notes that if one heats the extrac-
tion solution of dilute acetic acid to 70 degrees centigrade for
ten minutes, then the psilocybin is completely converted by
dephosphorylation to psilocin.(5)"

C.B. Gold mentions 70 degrees for 10 minutes in his extraction method. The melting and boiling point of acetic acid being in the over 150 degree F range.

Here is some info on citric acid concerning crystal formation and temperature.

"At room temperature, citric acid is a white crystalline powder. It can exist either in an anhydrous (water-free) form, or as a monohydrate that contains one water molecule for every molecule of citric acid. The anhydrous form crystallizes from hot water, while the monohydrate forms when citric acid is crystallized from cold water. The monohydrate can be converted to the anhydrous form by heating it above 74 ?C"

All of these are high temp chemical reactions which more than likely will not affect our practical tests, what is important is keeping the temp under the level at which it starts to detrimentally afect the Psilocin and Psilocybin. So 70 degrees F a "safe" temp, maybe.

Sadly the only real scientific testing is done at the Drug Agencies and I don't think we want to get too chummy with them.

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InvisibleBlowmonkey
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: cornoir]
    #4769974 - 10/07/05 04:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know if these things have been mentioned already and frankly, I don't really care.. I've read up till half of the thread and that's enough for me.

Anyways, flavonoids will not have an effect on the trip because the ones that have been mentioned (in grapefruit juice) affect p450 CYP3A4 enzymes, psilocybin/psilocin does not interact with these enzymes at all, rather, it get's to deal with MAO.

And there is no sign of MAO inhibition because well, just try it out yourself with some amphetamines. Nothing will happen.

I don't think it has got to do much with the ph of the lemon juice, because well, I've never got potentiation from drinking coca cola with my mushrooms, same low ph..

And lastly, a placebo is a powerful thing, people that claim they have not been affected by it because "they do not think so", do not know what a placebo actually means, I suspect.. Ever heard of the experimenters effect, you know, when someone get's (un-consciously) influenced by the information given..? Well, IMO that's happening right here.


--------------------
Think have not affected the way I drugs..
We have to make him BANGERANG !!

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InvisibleSourceLimit
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Blowmonkey]
    #4771326 - 10/07/05 11:03 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Oh, well thanks for the definition of placebo. If you did take the time to continue reading the entire thread, before making a comment (of which is sarcastic and egotistical) such as you have, you would have seen that it very well may be sound. Basically, a pre-extraction of the psilocybin may be taking place (or IS taking place in the case of letting it sit). This may allow a more rapid absorption (and more complete), and therefor cause effects to come on faster and more pronounced for a shorter duration.

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OfflineManninee
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Blowmonkey]
    #4772028 - 10/08/05 03:52 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Tryptamines interact with both MAO inhibitors AND enzymes of the cytochrome oxidase system (CYP2A6 - partial agonism noted for tryptamine). Source :
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/304/2/539
Different flavonoids have both inhibitory as well as stimulatory effects across the whole spectrum of cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes, so cannot be written off at all.

The real enzyme of interest may actually be the ubiquitous Alkaline Phosphatase, which is responsible for dephosphorylation of psilocybin to psilocin. It appears that this is blocked by... ascorbic acid! :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract
This may explain prolongation.

Out of interest, I can always tell when psilocybin is being switched over to psilocin by my body enzymes because of the change in the nature of the trip and a rise in body temperature - usually about 1-2 hours in at peak time! Dephosphorylation of the chemical ATP is the main source of energy and heat in the body, and I was wondering if this may be related to the temperature rise associated with dephosphorylation of psilocybin to psilocin? Does anyone else experience this too?

:sun:

Edited by Manninee (10/08/05 03:55 AM)

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OfflineStaypuft
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Manninee]
    #4772488 - 10/08/05 10:28 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

planning on doing this tonight with my girl friend. How long should i let the lemon juice sit with the powderized shrooms?


--------------------
The gnomes have found a new way to say hooooray.
How do you feel?

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Staypuft]
    #4772597 - 10/08/05 11:10 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Somebody above mentioned heating the lemon juice.

When extracting psilocybin it can be converted to psilocin by heating it when it is mixed with the acid. The psilocybin loses its phosphorous attachment to become psilocin. Although the extraction I read used acetic acid, I think ascorbic acid would have similar results. I'm not sure what the effects of drinking psilocin instead of psilocybin are.

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InvisibleBlowmonkey
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: SourceLimit]
    #4772627 - 10/08/05 11:17 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

SourceLimit said:
Oh, well thanks for the definition of placebo. If you did take the time to continue reading the entire thread, before making a comment (of which is sarcastic and egotistical) such as you have, you would have seen that it very well may be sound.




I'm sorry but my comment was neither "egotistical" or "sarcastic", I'm trying to refute some of the claims made, I do not see how this is egotistical or sarcastic, rather, it just offers another view. Most of the people here (from what I've read) do not question this experiment, but take it for what it is and that's not wrong or anything, believe what you want to believe, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be in the same camp. And I did not offer a definition of placebo, it was the definition of the "experimenters effect"..

Maninnee, that's an interesting article, I didn't know that. Still, grapefruit juice is not lemon juice and CYP2D6 is not CYP3A4. I don't have much faith in the flavonoids theory, but that's me.

Re the ascorbic acid. That's also in coca cola. Never noticed potentiation, prolongation or a difference in onset when I ate my powdered shrooms with big chugs of coca cola.

Quote:

Basically, a pre-extraction of the psilocybin may be taking place (or IS taking place in the case of letting it sit). This may allow a more rapid absorption (and more complete), and therefor cause effects to come on faster and more pronounced for a shorter duration.




Now this is plausible (and I'm very sorry if this was the conclusion in the part of the thread I haven't read), but essentially it's the same as a mushroom tea. Never heard people claim that a tea is 3-5 times stronger.

I'm still pretty skeptical of this all, but I'm not saying this all can NOT be true. I'm just skeptical of it and haven't seen rock solid evidence, such as double blind tests or theories without any flaws in it etc..

And wasn't it psilocin which crosses the BBB and not psilocybin? In that case you aren't able to tell psilocybin from psilocin because it's psilocin which is causing the effects. But I'm not sure on that, it's what I've learned a long time ago..


--------------------
Think have not affected the way I drugs..
We have to make him BANGERANG !!

Edited by Blowmonkey (10/08/05 11:42 AM)

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Blowmonkey]
    #4772695 - 10/08/05 11:42 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah I don't think psilocybin actually gets to the brain.

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OfflineWillieTomg
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4772841 - 10/08/05 12:35 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Alright, I have roughly 3.5g of shrooms right now, and will weigh out and dose 1.5g with a friend tonight trying out this method. 

Will report.  Let's roll.  :usa:


--------------------
Battles of wits are impossible with the unarmed.

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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4772871 - 10/08/05 12:41 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Staypuft, just let your powder sit in your juice for 5minutes or less and you should be good. All the opinions of why you are skeptical are well and good, but let's get some more people trying it if possible. After going through the posts, about 9 out of 10 are reporting considerably magnified effects. That warrants more research be done. I picked some this week, so I should have some second hand reports after this weekend. I am still leaning toward my working theory though, which is basically a combination of factors are all helping. As we are only 2 weeks into this forum, I imagine we should have a larger knowledge base to work from in a few months. Keep up the exchange of ideas and the experimentation.


--------------------
If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

Edited by Underhillmaster (10/17/05 05:24 PM)

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Staypuft]
    #4773197 - 10/08/05 02:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Re the ascorbic acid. That's also in coca cola. Never noticed potentiation, prolongation or a difference in onset when I ate my powdered shrooms with big chugs of coca cola.




Cola is far, far less acidic than lemon juice or my 5% ascorbic acid solution. Just because a bunch of people shout it can't possibly be acidity does by itself not mean they are right  :wink:

We see people reporting potentiation with various "strong" acidities (Cranberry, Lemon/Lime, 5% Ascorbic acid) but far less acidic juices (such as orange, which varies a great deal) provoke ambiguous results.

Quote:

How long should i let the lemon juice sit with the powderized shrooms?




I recommend you to powder the mushrooms and create doses of 1-2 fluid ounce pure lemon juice, and soaking your dried mushroom powder (without lumps) in there for 15 minutes.

Your stomachs HAVE TO BE EMPTY. fast at least 3 hours, preferably more. My friend kinda did this and reported 3-4x potency.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
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OfflineMrMolotov
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Asante]
    #4773725 - 10/08/05 05:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Just found my coffee grinder and have been grinding my 3.4 grams for about 20 mins now heh very fine will reweigh my dose out shortly before i dose.


--------------------


OI OI OI

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OfflineWillieTomg
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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: MrMolotov]
    #4773828 - 10/08/05 05:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I had to have a few delicious mouthfuls of stuffing (remnants of a delicious family dinner) but I'm not dosing for another hour and a half at the soonest, and it was only a few forkfuls of simple starch. 

The bag weighed in at 4.5 grams, so I guess I didn't pay too much after all.  I'm splitting it down the middle with a friend.  For science! :tongue2:


--------------------
Battles of wits are impossible with the unarmed.

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OfflineToboggan
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An idea for those who had positive results [Re: WillieTomg]
    #4774190 - 10/08/05 07:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I haven't read the entire thread yet so I'm sorry if I repeat something thats already been said. I was thinking that if pH is resposible for the possible potentiation then perhaps taking an antacid could weaken this effect.

Maybe someone who has experimented with this could try swallowing some Tums or something before taking the shot and see if there is any observable difference.

This is a great thread and I encourage everybody who participating in this experiment to keep it up!


--------------------
"A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd"

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OfflineWillieTomg
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Re: An idea for those who had positive results [Re: Toboggan]
    #4775574 - 10/09/05 01:35 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well, that was a fun shrooming night.  I'm a little strung out at the moment, so I'll give a more detailed report when I'm more coherent and in a state to make a coherent report on things.  I'll gladly give the incoherent one right now though:

I felt nothing that a 2g dose wouldn't give me anyway.  The times of the effects were consistent with what were reported by others (fast comeup, great peak, quick comedown) but I didn't see any visuals worth remembering or repeating.  I did have a nice trip inside my own head regarding the whole big picture and  personal realities and what have you, but I've felt as much sitting in a Sociology class.  Luckily I had soemthing to kick off the experience.  :bongload: :gethigh: :bigblunt:  After that came a fantastic equivalent of a POWERFUL fucking herbal ecstasy roll.  Tons of fun riding around in a car with friends.  I went in with an open mind, and I didn't feel anything out of the ordinary. 

I'd get more detailed, but I gotta sleep...


--------------------
Battles of wits are impossible with the unarmed.

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InvisibleMyconut
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Re: An idea for those who had positive results [Re: WillieTomg]
    #4775933 - 10/09/05 05:19 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Just thought I would point out(I havent touched shrooms, grew shrooms, ate shrooms or anything in a few years so I might be a little off... plus I didnt read the entire thread)

But yeah, I dont think antacids would be a good way to test anything since everything I DID actually read here seems to suggest that the conversion is taking place before actually taking the lemon juice shots, so if that were true then eating some tums would in no way affect the chemical changes that had already taken place before you ever consumed the shot.

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OfflineTerantula
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Re: An idea for those who had positive results [Re: Myconut]
    #4776078 - 10/09/05 08:01 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting... I wouldnt think takign an antacid would aid in any way the digestion of the mushroom meat, but I wouldnt think it would have any kind of effect upon the absorbtion of psilocybin/cin... Does it?

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OfflineMrMolotov
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Re: An idea for those who had positive results [Re: Terantula]
    #4777436 - 10/09/05 02:58 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Its an alkaline and could possibly oxidize the psilocin because it is unstable in alkaline solutions.

OK as for my trip with the lemon juice method i took 2 home grown lemons ( juiced and strained the pulp and had about 8 oz of juice(it was a big lemon)
I had 2 friends besides myself one friends said that my shrooms were kind of old and pulled out 3 grams of some from his fresh batch.
i decided that i was ready for whatever the mushroom threw at me. i ground 2 grams in a coffee grinder until very very fine and soaked 1 gram in 1 oz lemon juice in each shot glass i took 2 shots right after the other after letting the solutions steep for 15 Min's my friend took 1 gram the same way. i had not eaten in about 4.5 hours my friend about 2 about 20 Min's after ingestion i noticed that the walls had begun to breathe and that the ceiling and carpets were beginning to move. My friend was laughing a lot and said he noticed a few nice visuals in the blanket on the couch.
after an hour i began to trip very very hard like i had taken 6 or 7 grams my friend was acting like he had 2 or 3 grams.
We decided to go and walk around a big construction site near to my house. we played and were mesmerized by the ground which was all uniform with the tractor treads i pulled a fire extinguisher and discharged it up into the air until it was empty the cloud it formed was absolutely amazing it roiled around the air and spread out along the ground the whole thing was so beautiful we stayed till the last traces had disappeared we went o the store and got some drinks and snacks.
I bought a 20 oz milk, a bag of bugles and a butter finger. i ate my food and felt immensely better my minor nausea went away and when we left and began to walk back to my house i began to go nuts things just got really really weird and i freaked out for a few Min's until i calmed myself down i kept looking at my hands and then saw them warp and distort and i would be saying oh my god my hands are melting and got freaked out which is unusual for me to be freaked out by looking at my hands melt. we returned to my house where we tried to watch fight club but it was too strange for my friend. so we listened to some bob Marley and it really calmed everyone down. i last remember looking at the clock saying it was 3:25 i ingested them at 9:45. i left out some very very personal thought i had last night and do not want to discuss here.
it was a wild ride i would have to say it was a mid to high level 4 trip i woke up this morning absolutely glowing. my friend said he felt I was a low to middle level 3 trip.
for me and my friend who i didnt tell that it made them stronger it also worked. so who knows there might have been a placebo factor present for me but i sure had an absolute blast. and the taste was much better compared to jsut munching them down.


--------------------


OI OI OI

Edited by MrMolotov (10/09/05 03:05 PM)

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: An idea for those who had positive results [Re: MrMolotov]
    #4777882 - 10/09/05 04:57 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Hey all, good to see this still going!

My computer with the notes of my experiment crashed(CPU or motherboard is not working anymore) a few days ago and that's why I was not online and haven't posted my full report yet.

I hope to post it as soon as possible. Just to let you know.

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: An idea for those who had positive results [Re: Annom]
    #4777943 - 10/09/05 05:10 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Friend of mine tried .8 grams in about a cup full of pure lemon juice. powdered his mushrooms and let them soak for 20 minutes.

Said it felt like it was 2 times stronger. What is interesting is that he was able to sleep 4 hours later.

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OfflineRetired
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Re: Side effects [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4778037 - 10/09/05 05:27 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

deficitism do you think the 1cup lemon juice made it better then just a shot of lemon juice? why did you use so much?

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InvisibleSourceLimit
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Re: Side effects [Re: Retired]
    #4779899 - 10/09/05 11:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

As it seems so far:


Acidity + Powdered Mushrooms + Time

Drink up

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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: SourceLimit]
    #4780950 - 10/10/05 04:31 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, awesome that this is still going. I haven't read everything yet, but I have a question and a comment. (Sorry if I'm repeating something, but I don't have time to read all 11 pages that I missed.)

For everyone who have tried the juice shots: The effects hit you quicker--did they last as long as normal, though?

And to reiterate my hypothesis: The acidity in the juice causes a significant amount of the psilocybin in your cup to be converted to psilocin, which means that your body has little, if anything, to metabolize when you drink it. -"Pre-digested"

So three things contribute to the 'increased' effects:
#1: The psilocin starts working its magic (entering the bloodstream and brain) faster and easier than usual, since there is a much smaller amount of psilocybin to be metabolized than usual.

#2: Your juice drink is highly concentrated. That is to say, a high ratio of mushroom-to-juice. Swallowing that in one or two gulps is a no-brainer for explaining why things happen faster.

#3: The mushrooms are powdered. Maximum surface area = minimum amount of time to digest it.

- Note: To make this work better, definitely agitate your shroomjuice for at least 5 minutes. Applying a low level of heat (like putting your juice jar in a hot water bath in a pot on the stove) will also help to extract the psilocin.

Of course, you could not drink the juice, strain out the mushroom goop, and repeat the process with as many grams as you wanted...

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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Land_Crab]
    #4781648 - 10/10/05 09:58 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

coca cola doesnt have asorbic acid in it, it has phosphoric acid.

For those of you who are determined that it is the acidity of the solutions that are causing the potentation, why dont you try a few drops of 10% phosphoric acid or a drop of muriatic acid (HCl)?

And still, no one has tried red wine with it. Comon now, i dont want to have to be the lab rat with everything.

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: This hyphus (thread) *DELETED* [Re: yousuck]
    #4781958 - 10/10/05 11:03 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: Reason?

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