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 egghead
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 Super potent shrooms, why argue? 
#312969 - 05/09/01 08:46 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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In every thread I've ever seen on increasing psilocybin/psilocyn production, someone says "it's not worth the effort, just increase dosage."
I believe the principle goal here is to shape the development of the mushroom into a more pure container. In est, the goal is to consume less of everything that is not psilocybin/psilocyn. There are practical reasons for 'increasing potency' that go beyond the effort of growing one more mushroom.
What do you folks think?
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Where there's skill, there's a better way..
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Anonymous
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: egghead]
#312984 - 05/09/01 09:09 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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The only known study that showed a correlation between potency and substrate involved using pure Tryptamine. Can you get pure tryptamine, I can't. That is why some of us suggest growing more potent species or just consume more mushrooms. Tryptamine is monitored in the U.S. There are logs kept to monitor it's distribution. As far as all the amino acid, nutrient, and herbal supplements go, none of these have been proven to work. Syrian rue is a MAOI and it's addition does not increase Psilocybin or Psilocin, but acts as a potentiator to the compounds. It also makes DMT orally active. The opposition to these experiments don't really oppose trying, but are offering an easier alternative that is time tested, and proven. Eat more cubensis or grow something more potent naturally, i.e more potent species.
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egghead
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: ]
#312990 - 05/09/01 09:21 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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As a US citizen, you may import non-FDA approved products for personal under FDA guidelines July 23, 1988. The restrictions ("personal use") require the importer 1) not to re-sell the product 2) to not commercially promote the product 3) may import maximum of 3 month supply.
Imagine putting L-Tryptophan in your rye jars before pressure cooking. The process of pressure cooking turns the L-Tryptophan into Triptamine. From there, who knows?
I don't know anything about Rue or DMT, etc.
BTW, do you realize that you gave the exact advice I said you would?
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Where there's skill, there's a better way..
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Bleuboxo
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: egghead]
#313064 - 05/09/01 11:25 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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hey egghead, how do you know that L-tryptophan will make shrooms more potent when added to rye in jars? i am putting 5-HTP in 6 casings of B+ and 6 of them will not have it. I will undergo some experiments. if there is a way to get tryptamine i will get it.
" Insanity is just a thread of reality...the make-as-you-go part of living, the bare second reflex of dying _Stavros Christou... by_"
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" Insanity is just a thread of reality...the make-as-you-go part of living, the bare second reflex of dying _Stavros Christou... by_"
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gray1
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: Bleuboxo]
#313074 - 05/09/01 11:38 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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teonan, well said.
bleuboxo, don't bother trying to find tryptamine, you won't be able to purchase it, it is a highly controled substance as it is such a direct precursor to many drugs in the tryptamine class.
egghead, what makes you think pressure cooking turns L-tryptophan into tryptamine? my preliminary thoughts are that 1. heat alone will not cause such a conversion, and 2. that much heat for the prolonged periond of time will cause either of the molecules to be degraded. however, i will look into the real answers later when i have my merck index and some structural info in front of me.
do you have experience with importing under that FDA poicy. i have recently placed an order for some nootropic pharmaceuticals operating on the importation premise and look forward to receiving them soon, however, from reading other people's experiences on the net, often packages will be seized at customs and don't always make it through.
why would you order L-Tryptophan when 5-HTP is available in the us?
c12h16n24ohdmt
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egghead
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: Bleuboxo]
#313079 - 05/09/01 11:43 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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I came by the info from a discussion on DD. The proof given was very convincing, but is currently unavailable.
The folks involved in the discussion seemed to come to a consensus on the methodology described in my earlier post. Likewise, everyone was certain that 5HTP would be completely ineffective.
Buy Me :)
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Where there's skill, there's a better way..
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gray1
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: egghead]
#313087 - 05/09/01 11:57 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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what about ordering from abroad under the FDA allowance, have you dont that yourself?
i would like to see that info from dd, does anyone have it on a databse elsewhere that they could share?
c12h16n24ohdmt
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egghead
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: gray1]
#313090 - 05/09/01 12:03 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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I know someone that's ordered from abroad and received shipment, no prob. There was no need for them to assert the FDA allowance, the stuff just came.
We all would like to have access to the DD knowledge base. I apologize that I can't show you the proof given to me. 
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Where there's skill, there's a better way..
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Anonymous
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: egghead]
#313112 - 05/09/01 12:30 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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Tryptamime is monitored, both in the U.S. and abroad. ALL OF IT HAS A PAPER TRAIL. You can buy a beer with a fake I.D. because you are praying on the ignorance of the sales person. Chemical companies are not so ignorant. They would be shut down if they were. Tryptophan has to go through alot of metabolic processes to be converted to Psilocybin, processes that envolve energy, energy used by the fungus for essential metabolic processes. Tryptamine enters the process near the end. If you think you can figure out a way to make the Respiration wheel turn faster, then maybe you got a shot with adding nutrients and amino acids, but I don't think GOD can make it run faster.
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egghead
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: ]
#313132 - 05/09/01 12:59 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well, I really wasn't interested in proving or disproving any methodologies in this thread. Just trying to get out in the open why people so vigorously dissuade others from discussing and experimenting w/ shroom potency. The way people act, you'd think they were talking about human cloning. I don't think anyone intends to play god, just to have a subtle influence over a fungi's nutrient up-take/metabolism.
There are several techniques for extracting psylocybin from mushrooms. I'm sure that people developed and use those teks for a reason. I consider attempts to increase potency as a compromise that gives greater purity without the need to go through some difficult/dangerous extraction process.
It just seems self-evident that it's OK for folks to discuss and experiment on something if they want without constantly having to justify the need for it. So I don't understand why, specifically, these discussions about potency come under such harsh scrutiny every time. It's automatic, like a metabolic process itself.
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Where there's skill, there's a better way..
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 Dirtmaster
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: egghead]
#313144 - 05/09/01 01:24 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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yo dude
i think the reason that the proponents of super potent shrooms are dissed is that they 99 times out of a hundred don't have a clue what they're talking about.
they often lack even a basic understanding of chemistry and biology, and reason along the lines of "if i add lsd to my casing my shrooms will be superstrong!"
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Anonymous
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: egghead]
#313159 - 05/09/01 01:39 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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People who oppose this, usually are opposing it because we don't feel it is possible. By just adding extra amounts of such basic substances. To much information is missing from the proccesses that occur within the mushroom, to metabolize the substances. No scientist can obtain the necessary license to do the research needed to accomplish this, If they can they are not. Can you or anyone else quantify potency? How do you know you have succeded? We don't attack the posts out of meaness! More so out of frustration. We to are frustrated that these theories can not be tried or tested. When people post here, they are asking for input, both positive and negative. Usually people attack the information not the informer. I wasn't saying you were trying to be god. I was stating that god can't speed up the wheels of respiration
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egghead
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: ]
#313172 - 05/09/01 02:02 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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Understood. That's what I was wondering. The topic just seemed taboo, but I guess you're saying it's more like kookoo. :)
Admittedly, I'm no chemist or scientist with no means to measure content, let alone, relative differences. If either of you have any thoughts on varacity of the methodology mentioned above, they would be most welcome. The analysis put before me seemed quite credible. I lack the basic knowledge of chemistry to know for myself (sad). If you have any questions, fire away. All I can say is that I was told that PCing L-Tryptophan would convert it to Triptamine, which was highly desireable. They said that in response to a question about "would PCing destroy the L-Tryptophan, should I add it afterward?" They replied, "to the contrary, it would break down into a more desirable state to react w/ fungal enzymes.
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Where there's skill, there's a better way..
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Bleuboxo
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: egghead]
#313179 - 05/09/01 02:06 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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im no scientist or chemist, far from it, or even mycologist, but read the post "super potent shrooms are possible" it has been proven that tryptamine has made more potent cubensis. L-Tryptophan is sold in regular GNC stores. By adding this you are utilizing the pathways to potent shrooms. check it out and you'll see for yourselfs. although i have not yet experimented with L-Tryptophan, i will soon with Thai's and i will defintley post results.
" Insanity is just a thread of reality...the make-as-you-go part of living, the bare second reflex of dying _Stavros Christou... by_"
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" Insanity is just a thread of reality...the make-as-you-go part of living, the bare second reflex of dying _Stavros Christou... by_"
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gray1
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: Bleuboxo]
#313193 - 05/09/01 02:20 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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i don't think that you need to be a chemistry geek to understand the premise under which this thread is pondering
let me just attempt to make one thing obvious: the pathway that produces psilocin/psilocybin is the same regardless of whether you supplement with l-tryptophan or a form there-of.
the fungi in question use tryptophan to make psilocin/psilocybin. if you supply more tryptophan, the mushrooms may be able to make more psilocin/psilocybin.
it's that simple.
an alternate route to analyze is the tryptophan content of the traditional growth medium. certainly, if this is sub-optimal, adding tryptophan will increase psilocybin/psilocin
c12h16n24ohdmt
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gray1
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: gray1]
#313200 - 05/09/01 02:26 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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teonan,
it's not necessarily about making the wheel turn faster, just allowing for the natural process to function to it's full availability by providing it with plenty of substrates.
c12h16n24ohdmt
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gray1
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: gray1]
#313207 - 05/09/01 02:33 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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egghead, in terms of attempting to verify the experiment
obviously ingesting them is going to be very subjective. if you have experience in extraction you could attempt to extract the alkaloids and compare yields. even that would be a pretty rough guide though.
c12h16n24ohdmt
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Anonymous
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: gray1]
#313914 - 05/10/01 11:14 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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No one process within any living organism can be taken on it's own. Tryptophan supplies only the building block to make Psilocybin. Many enzymes and other building blocks are necessary to convert. Tryptophan is also converted into other substances. Nitrogen is also in Psilocybin. But adding to much can have a limiting effect on the mushrooms. Adding to much of any one substance can have good and bad effects. Antagonism, saturation, nutrient imbalance, all can play a roll. And all of the metabolic processes are dependent on the energy of respiration.
The same study that showed adding Tryptamine to the substrate to increase Psilocin content also showed that adding to much carbohydrate (malt) completely suppresed Psilocybin production. Both of these studies were done on mycelium, not Fruits!!!! I'm sure substrate composition effects potency, I just think it is more than just adding Tryptophan. How do you account for potency in Cop. cyans? They grow on cow shit just like cubensis, but are far more potent. I think absolute potency is determined within each specimen of each strain of each spore race of each species. There must be a higher concentration of the necessary enzymes that do these conversions. Tryptophan is an amino acid and it is the basis for many substances. Tryptamine, what else is the mushroom going to do with it. What is the tryptophan content of the feed given to cows? What would account for one species taking advantage and another species not? Do cows eat beans? Are there grasses growing in central Florida that the cows could be eating that contain tryptamines? When I grew Cop. cyans on straight rye grain they seemed to already possess the potency without any additions. How do you account for this? Warm weather strains with high potency?
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gray1
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: ]
#313945 - 05/10/01 11:59 AM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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teonan, i agree with what you are saying.
yes, i have oversimplified, however i have done so with the intention of describing the rational as to why supplementing substrate with L-tryptophan could work, not because i don't understand that life is an immensely complex and continuous series of molecular reactions that are all interdependant.
i didn't start this post, nor do i plan on doing the experiemnt myself, i'm simply trying to validate the experiment and illustrate that in theory it could work through the simplified pathway that i have described for others who have interest in testing out substrate supplementation with the intent of increasing potency.
i will reiterate that i do believe that for the strains of mushrooms in scrutiny, there must be an optimal environment for the production of psilocybin and psilocin. this is a multifactorial thing that involves time, temperature, humidity, light, nutrients, substrate, avoiding contaminents, etc...
each individual cultivator is constantly trying to tweak the environment for the best production (after all, isn't this entire bulletin board devoted to doing so?)
i have simply suggested that the addition of l-tryptophan with the intent of providing the organisms with precursor for the production of psilocybin and psilocin may result in increased production of psilocin and psilocybin, and have attempted to outline the basic theory behind this suggestion.
certainly, tryptophan could be metabolized and used in several different biological pathways, and by supplementing you are not guaranteeing that it will be used for indole alkaloid production. as cultivators, we have little to no control over the actual reactions that take place in the organisms that we cultivate (i cultivate tomatoes myself)
basically, what i'm saying is this: "here you go little shroomies. i'm going to try and give you the proper amounts of everything you need: light, water, nutrients, humidity, tlc, etc... go do your thing."
c12h16n24ohdmt
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Bleuboxo
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Re: Super potent shrooms, why argue? [Re: gray1]
#314356 - 05/10/01 09:25 PM (22 years, 11 months ago) |
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ok...here goes please dont laugh at my corny responses, i find all this very interesting and im going to try to explain what i think you are trying to explain....
1. L-tryptophan can in fact be broken down to Tryptamine.
2. Tryptamine can in fact produce higher psilocybin content in psilocybin producing mushrooms.
3. The pathways for the psilocybin mushrooms to actually take the tryptamine and brake it down to psilocybin are not known. ( time, amounts, reactions, etc... )
4. If L-tryptophan can be produced into tryptamine by mushrooms we have to find out how much they are going to actually need for the content to be up to at least 3.0
Now, believeing i have everything right, the next possible thing for me to do is actaully test it out. I am 100% serious about this because before i even registered to the shroomery i had no idea what basic science was. but if you put something interesting in front of somebody, they are going to want to learn by all means especially if they have alot of time. BTW...lets say you have a friend who owns a lab, and has several different accounts with fisher sci, and other good comanies, could tryptamine be ordered through this friend?? leaving your name out of it and letting the friend convince the FDA he/she was going to experiment with tissue culture?? could this be possible? a pet slug of mine really wants to know...god knows why...crazy ol' town...
" Insanity is just a thread of reality...the make-as-you-go part of living, the bare second reflex of dying _Stavros Christou... by_"
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" Insanity is just a thread of reality...the make-as-you-go part of living, the bare second reflex of dying _Stavros Christou... by_"
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