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 mr_kite
The Watcher
Registered: 09/16/02
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 Brain wired for God
#9941428 - 03/09/09 05:20 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I made a post a while back dribbling on about religious belief and genes.
I used to get annoyed with religious types because it seemed so obviously illogical and ridiculous, but all the evidence seems to point to the fact that its all about how you're wired. Therefore Im trying to cultivate a more accepting attitude towards the poor fuckers; they dont necessarily choose it, just like I didnt choose to be male for example, Samuel L Jackson didnt choose to be black or my gay friends dont choose to be gay.
Heres an article about the default human propensity for creating god and religion
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126941.700-born-believers-how-your-brain-creates-god.html
...and about a new study on the part of the brain that controls religious belief: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/belief-and-the-brains--god-spot-1641022.html
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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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 zannennagara
Found in Space
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 424
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: mr_kite]
#9941708 - 03/09/09 06:15 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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"It's OK, I accept that you believe in God and the Virgin Birth, it's just your brain that's wired that way."
"Yes, you must be right; thanks for opening my eyes. By the way I'm fine with your soulless atheistic rationalism, it's just Satan who's tempting you away from the holy path of righteousness and prayer."
I don't think these findings give us much of a solution here; there's not much more than paternal condescension gained as ammunition, which is unhelpful even if deserved.
Quote:
Based on these and other experiments, Bering considers a belief in some form of life apart from that experienced in the body to be the default setting of the human brain. Education and experience teach us to override it, but it never truly leaves us, he says.
An interesting part of the first article. Is this claiming that education and experience are teaching us to override non-solipsistic ontology?
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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.
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mr_kite
The Watcher
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"I don't think these findings give us much of a solution here; there's not much more than paternal condescension gained as ammunition, which is unhelpful even if deserved."
Absolutely true. However, whether religions claims are true is another argument...this more just go towards explaining why some people believe and some dont.
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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
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Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: mr_kite]
#9942606 - 03/09/09 08:49 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I take Bloom and Grafman's view.
That belief in spiritual explinations is just a matter of humans finding coherent beliefs and the most coherent beliefs presented and understood by them are spiritual ones, most of the time. This is probably because humans can comprehend the actions of entities much easier than they can comprehend the way that physics works. there is a point where entities 'just do' things.. and this doesnt require explination. Physics, on the other hand, is a matter where there is always a further explination, and eventually a point where we have to admit the lack of knowlege of something that we ought to be able to know about (as opposed to minds, which we should never expect to be able to predict fully). Why should we expect people to believe that science is all there is? Why should we expect people to be complacent with having no understanding of their world, when humans by their nature are compelled toward greater understanding or mental control of concepts.
OR more importantly - why should we expect people to believe strange scientists as opposed to their family, friends, and community, which usually all share the same belief in cases where a strong belief is held.?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: mr_kite]
#9942816 - 03/09/09 09:21 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Whether my brain is wired to register a sensation from my visual senses, or wired to register the presence of God, does not automatically grant us privy to the knowledge of the existence of an external world or God. These still remain interesting and unanswered questions long after the neuroscientists have mapped out the location of particular beliefs in one's brain anatomy; I see nothing novel here except a chance to look smugly at those mentally deviant believers.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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bradley
Stranger
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: Noteworthy]
#9942850 - 03/09/09 09:25 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Crowley maintained a scientific viewpoint, yet he said that there is a Universal Will that a person must align their own will with. He could have easily substituted God in for "universe" without changing the meaning.
Now, I don't believe in God, but I've always thought the science versus God debate was silly. If you look at the mechanism of a cell, and you see the DNA copying amino acids, or whatever it does...isn't the DNA acting out the cell's will?
So why does it seem so silly for a human to ask what their purpose is in the grand scheme of the universe, regardless of the degree to which they anthropomorphosize the universe?
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: bradley]
#9942900 - 03/09/09 09:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think the word 'God' should never be used in this sort of research. It completely moves our mind away from what we should be looking for. Most human beings from the start of human beings have believed in spirits and gods, and if there is any biological aspect of spirituality, it is more likely to be a 'spirit' sector of the brain rather than a 'god' part.
I lose respect for scientists who talk about 'god' in reference to human evolution... the notion of 'God' has only been around for a few thousand years. how could it have influenced human evolution?
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bradley
Stranger
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: Noteworthy]
#9943083 - 03/09/09 10:03 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Again consider the the purpose of the individual within the greater world he is aware of. It is only natural to ask "what should I do with myself"?
Every culture has had their own type of god which represents their answer to that question. Moral programs. It started with animal and tribal gods. But cultures evolved in sophistication and with them their gods. For example, if you think it rains because you do the rain dance for god, your theology is a little banal even by christian standards.
There is certainly a biological aspect to spirituality and I think humans realized that as soon as they moved out of a completely narcisistic worldview..."I" am having a spiritual experience....and "I" have a body...it seems very basic to me.
Since "God" is the traditional term for highest purpose, if an area of the brain correlates to this experience, I see no reason for dubbing it a "spirit" center. It sounds more hip I suppose.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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Re: Brain wired for God - the child within [Re: mr_kite]
#9944096 - 03/10/09 03:28 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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great article in New Scientist
Quote:
These cognitive biases are so strong, says Petrovich, that children tend to spontaneously invent the concept of god without adult intervention: "They rely on their everyday experience of the physical world and construct the concept of god on the basis of this experience." Because of this, when children hear the claims of religion they seem to make perfect sense.
observing what children do outside of the influence of social context is very revealing.
the Independent Science article was less informative. (scientists using modern test materials and applying them nearly indiscriminately - reminds me of conceptual artists putting on bad art shows with personal statements like "my art exposes that people think of sex a lot") anything to fill space in a magazine. media.
is media god? mental media? (that is how childish I get)
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Lakefingers
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Re: Brain wired for God - the child within [Re: redgreenvines]
#9944672 - 03/10/09 08:26 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
observing what children do outside of the influence of social context is very revealing.
I'm sure it would be. Go find an example of it.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,622
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: mr_kite]
#9944681 - 03/10/09 08:29 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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a more accepting attitude towards the poor fuckers;
Good attitude.  Most human primates can't help but be stupid (dumb all over) in one form or another.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Master Po
Stranger
Registered: 03/09/09
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: mr_kite]
#9946699 - 03/10/09 03:05 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mr_kite said:
Heres an article about the default human propensity for creating god and religion
People can create religion but they cannot create God.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,622
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: Master Po]
#9946732 - 03/10/09 03:11 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Can't create something that doesn't exist and never could.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Grapefruit
Obliviated
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: Icelander]
#9946861 - 03/10/09 03:35 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
a more accepting attitude towards the poor fuckers;
Good attitude. Most human primates can't help but be stupid (dumb all over) in one form or another.
This is a great attitude but as with most of my beliefs i find it rather difficult to maintain in real life situations, i guess that's what growth is about though. 
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"So man's insanity is heaven's sense; and wandering from all mortal reason, man comes at last to that celestial thought, which, to reason, is absurd and frantic; and weal or woe, feels then uncompromised, indifferent as his God." - Herman Melville
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Master Po
Stranger
Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 30
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: Grapefruit]
#9947007 - 03/10/09 04:03 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
a more accepting attitude towards the poor fuckers;
Good attitude. Most human primates can't help but be stupid (dumb all over) in one form or another.
This is a great attitude but as with most of my beliefs i find it rather difficult to maintain in real life situations, i guess that's what growth is about though.
What makes them "poor fuckers". Many religious types are happier, more successful and well adjusted than many non-religious types. Sounds like a poor prejudicial stereo-type.
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mr_kite
The Watcher
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: Master Po]
#9947374 - 03/10/09 05:11 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Master Po said:
Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
a more accepting attitude towards the poor fuckers;
Good attitude. Most human primates can't help but be stupid (dumb all over) in one form or another.
This is a great attitude but as with most of my beliefs i find it rather difficult to maintain in real life situations, i guess that's what growth is about though.
What makes them "poor fuckers". Many religious types are happier, more successful and well adjusted than many non-religious types. Sounds like a poor prejudicial stereo-type.
They're sort of living a lie though arent they? Well they cant all be right anyway, thats for sure, since one religions beliefs contradict anothers. Depends what your priorities are.
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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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Master Po
Stranger
Registered: 03/09/09
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: mr_kite]
#9947450 - 03/10/09 05:28 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mr_kite said:
They're sort of living a lie though arent they? Well they cant all be right anyway, thats for sure, since one religions beliefs contradict anothers. Depends what your priorities are.
Who is to say which one is living a lie? Maybe it is a different way of achieving the same goal.
If their priorities don't match your priorities, they are "poor fuckers"?
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mr_kite
The Watcher
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: Master Po]
#9947636 - 03/10/09 06:01 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Dont get too hung up on the phrase "poor fuckers", Im from Glasgow, I swear a lot. Basically I agree with what you're saying. By priorities, I meant Id rather be happy through trying to be more aware about my existence and the universe, than be happy through unquestioningly, or even questioningly, accepting an outdated myth.
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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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Re: Brain wired for God [Re: mr_kite]
#9947969 - 03/10/09 06:52 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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i think the religion that kids make up is the best form of science that they can muster up, with theories they can explain the unexplained.
I don't think that they are encumbered by understanding cause and effect and time in the same way as we are.
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arainbow
Hippy
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 690
Loc: Palnet Earth
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who made who ?
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There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.
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