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 Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
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 The Present
#9798487 - 02/14/09 09:18 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hello. I joined this forum to not only learn more about psilocybin, but to show you all something that I stumbled upon. I've spent a lot of time seeking answers regarding life and death through psychoactive substances and reasoning, which led me to this website last month.
www.truthcontest.com
Click on "The Present" or "The Present (with religion)" if you're into religion.
Open the file in Word, and click Read Only.
I firmly believe that mankind will change drastically if this book reaches enough people. The writing is not perfect, but the ideas are very interesting and the best part about them is that you can check them for yourself, in reality. The content is in a progressive order so start by reading the first ten pages or so. The website itself is a contest to help spread the truth about life and death to the world. If you know the truth, please submit an entry.
All I'm asking is that you take a look at the book; once you read the first few pages you will see what I mean. I'd love to start a discussion about the topics in this book on this forum, because mushrooms are a great tool to open the mind and many of you have seen beyond yourselves.
Thank you very much, and I hope this book helps you grow spiritually like it did for me.
Edited by Jethro Tull (09/04/09 08:28 AM)
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 Poid
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I'll look into that; in the meantime, now that we're on the topic of books, I'd like to suggest that everyone read this:
I just realized that I should probably introduce this book to the Music, Art, and Literature forum instead of bringing it up here. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (02/14/09 09:41 PM)
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
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Hell-o! Before I spend time with this "book", bring up a topic so I know what you are talking about.
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TameMe
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
I'd love to start a discussion about the topics in this book on this forum, because mushrooms are a great tool to open the mind and many of you have seen beyond yourselves.
Why not actually bring up a topic in the book then?
as of right now your post seems like spam.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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 Re: The Present [Re: TameMe]
#9801520 - 02/15/09 07:36 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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This book attempts to reveal the truth about life and death.
There are a wide variety of topics, but I'd say the main point is that the truth = that which is, or the perpetual, present moment.
The mind blocks out life and only focuses on what it thinks is important.
This book shows how we as humans have the ability to see past our minds and let all of life into our immortal, spiritual being to reflect it back out. Since life is always in the present moment, one must always live in the present moment.
Just read the first ten pages and bring up whatever you want. =)
I've read both versions and I'm pretty familiar with the topics, I'd be happy to discuss them with you all.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Hello. If you know the truth, please submit an entry.
Hello, Jethro, welcome to the Shroomery.
I'm selective about where, when and with whom I share the truth as much as I know it. It is the path of wisdom.
Cheers,
MM
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Poid
deBunker
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"I'm selective about where, when and with whom I share the truth as much as I know it."
Why?
"It is the path of wisdom."
What is? Keeping secrets?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Indigenous
Stranger
Registered: 01/08/09
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
This book attempts to reveal the truth about life and death.
I am suspicious of anyone who claims to know the truth about life and death.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
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As you should be! 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9801978 - 02/15/09 10:20 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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You should be suspicious, never trust anyone who claims to know it. One must seek to find the truth. You have to check it for yourself.
"The Present" uses logic and evidence in reality to bring out the ultimate truth. It provides a lot of examples that you can check for yourself with a rational mind. It bends down the branch, but you have to pick the fruit.
Why would you be hesitant to share the truth? If you know it, you can only benefit others by sharing your insights.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
Edited by Jethro Tull (11/27/09 10:28 PM)
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Indigenous
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I don't think that we are capable of knowing the absolute truth. People's perspectives and paths are all different. Sharing what is true for you may not be true for another. We all have to find what is true for us. I am careful who I share with and who I go to for advice and teaching.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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You are indeed correct when you say that we have to find out what is true for us, the truth lies within. This thread is not about preaching the truth, it is about discussing the ideas found in "The Present." Check them for yourself in reality and see if you can draw any connections to your life.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Indigenous
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I found one that I liked.
I don’t have to have faith, I have experience. Joseph Campbell
Edited by Indigenous (02/15/09 12:05 PM)
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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I like that one too. The book incorporates a lot of past philosophers and great minds who had inspiration pass through them. They are all essentially saying the same thing, and that is what The Present tries to show. If you read from the beginning you will see many examples that relate to the central idea of the book (truth = that which is = present moment).
One of my favorites is a quote by Einstein that is repeated throughout the book: "Great spirits are always opposed by mediocre minds." No matter how spiritual you are, being around active minds will always bring you back into the mind games.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9803618 - 02/15/09 04:26 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
"I'm selective about where, when and with whom I share the truth as much as I know it."
Why?
"It is the path of wisdom."
What is? Keeping secrets?
I also don't give hand grenades to 5 year olds. Would you? Same reason(s).
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xFrockx
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I read some stuff form that site, some of it seems well meaning, but the truth is no one knows anything, we cannot express fundamental truths about reality with words, we may only experience it. Who knows what happens when we die, logic could be totally irrelevant.
Edited by xFrockx (02/15/09 04:46 PM)
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
You should be suspicious, never trust anyone who claims to know it. One must seek to find the truth. The truth lies within, so you have to check it for yourself.
"The Present" uses logic and evidence in reality to bring out the ultimate truth. It provides a lot of examples that you can check for yourself with a rational mind. It bends down the branch, but you have to pick the fruit.
Why would you be hesitant to share the truth? If you know it, you can only benefit others by sharing your insights.
No it doesn't. I've only read the first few pages but there's already contradicting quotes and things about subjectivity. Absolute truth is objective and therefore cannot be written down by a person because people inherently view things and rationalize them based on their own beliefs and experiences.
Ex. of something already wrong with this book... it says
Quote:
The Rorschach inkblot test, is that inkblot that psychologists show to people and ask them what they see. Everyone will see something different depending on what their imagination comes up with. The truth is, it is an inkblot.
and thats fine... however until this statement comes up Quote:
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
so which is it?
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9804004 - 02/15/09 05:52 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
we cannot express fundamental truths about reality with words, we may only experience it.
This is true, we cannot think about or rationalize the truth, we can only experience it, because it is always in the present. The perpetual moment is the only thing we can experience, and therefore it is the truth. Logic is of the mind, Experience is of the spirit.
"It is not what you look at, but what you see."
By looking at something, you identify it and it is related to something previously defined in the mind. When you see something for the first time, it is new and is purely visual stimulus until you identify it. This quote is saying that everything can be new, if you sense it instead of identifying it. It doesn't matter what you are looking at, you are seeing life and it can always be new if you live without the mind.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
Edited by Jethro Tull (02/15/09 05:55 PM)
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Can you please elaborate for me on how "the perpetual moment" has been inductively found to be the truth?
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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"This is true"
I disagree, lol.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
....
By looking at something, you identify it and it is related to something previously defined in the mind. When you see something for the first time, it is new and is purely visual stimulus until you identify it. ...
I have to rephrase for accuracy,
vision introduces patterns of signals which fade and are replaced with fresh ones.
a pattern may relate to recent memory contexts or may even excite memories with uncanny resemblances.
sometimes you identify what vision introduces, when the pattern matches and if your attention is keyed to the resolving image.
even if you never saw the image before, if you want to identify it, you will find something to match it to and often experts call thing wrongly because they simply do not know what they are looking at.
However,
having identified something that you see does not mean you are slave to that connection, but once the connection is made, it is never totally undone.
in this way we get used to living with mistakes.
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~~~~~
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Check it for yourself. Have you ever experienced anything except for the present moment? You haven't, because it is the only perpetual moment you are ever aware of. Your whole life is a series of presents. It's always being given to you.
If the present is the only thing that can be experienced, how can the truth exist anywhere else? The literal definition of the truth is "that which is." The present is always "that which is." The present is is all of the past, or "that which was." The present will become the future, or "that which will be." The past exists as thoughts/memories/stories etc, which are part of the present, and the future is always uncertain.
We can't look to the past or the future for the truth because they don't exist. The truth is always in the present.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9804161 - 02/15/09 06:21 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
"This is true"
I disagree, lol.
Are you saying you disagree with yourself?
I was agreeing with that statement, by saying "This is true."
Maybe I should've have said "I agree."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Indigenous
Stranger
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The perpetual moment is true and a truth but not the entire truth. I think you are holding out on us.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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Well, i said that we can't express truths with words, and you said it was true, not that its a bad thing, its just funny. The truth is. We can't say for sure enough to give up the search, we may look forever, but whats to say we weren't getting closer the whole time. What's to say we aren't already there?
Edited by xFrockx (02/15/09 06:44 PM)
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9804445 - 02/15/09 07:19 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I am not holding out on you, that is why I am showing you this book. I'm trying to help you. The whole truth is the present and anything that is in the present moment, so there are many things which "are." The book explains the whole truth much better than I can. Read it, and let it in.
One must seek to find the truth. We have been seeking or believing in myths, and we have never before been able to fully understand the truth within our minds, as most of you have been pointing out. Our minds have been evolving for so long, who is to say we aren't already there? Who is to say we can't understand it now, in the present moment? Truth is what stands the test of experience. We always have more experience than before to draw evidence from, do we have enough? I think we do, as mankind.
Mind games are fun and all and we have been playing them forever (as John Lennon said in song), but seeking the truth about life and death for yourself is the best and most important thing you can do in this life, because it is your life, all of it. Seeking is what the mind's purpose is (seeking and understanding the truth). Once you know it by finding it within, your mind no longer controls your spirit. Your spirit controls your mind.
"The Present" explains things much better and in much more detail than I can at this point in time. Please take the time to read it.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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The biggest problem I had with it is that it claimed that we might be reborn as different things. Personally, it makes more sense to me that this is a perpetual merry go round we're on. Same life, over and over
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9804680 - 02/15/09 08:02 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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so while talking about the present, they discuss dieing and being reborn,
guess you can shoehorn anything in once you have a willing reader.
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~~~~~
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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yeah pretty much, I think there were pizza-hut coupons at the end too.
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Indigenous
Stranger
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9804755 - 02/15/09 08:13 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I really didn't see anything profound in there.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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Oh shit, yeah I was wrong about the coupons, nothing really worth much at all.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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That's because you already subconsciously know the truth, you have been exposed to it your whole life. Profoundness is merely an opinion, the ideas will be profound for some and not for others. The truth simply is; it never goes away, no matter how "profound" it is.
I have a suggestion for you. I'm not sure if you are interested in The Beatles, but there is an interesting section on "double meanings" in their lyrics that you might find quite profound.
In "The Present," it starts on page 206.
In "The Present (with religion)," it starts on page 262.
I have a deep appreciation for their music and their message. I'd love to read your thoughts about this section of the book.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:
Poid said:
"I'm selective about where, when and with whom I share the truth as much as I know it."
Why?
"It is the path of wisdom."
What is? Keeping secrets?
I also don't give hand grenades to 5 year olds. Would you? Same reason(s).
If they were able to wield them properly, why not? 
The Middle East doesn't seem to think of children wielding powerful weapons as something taboo...
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
The literal definition of the truth is "that which is." The present is always "that which is." The present is is all of the past, or "that which was."
Not necessarily. The phrase, "That which is." can refer to something that's untrue, therefore, a more correct definition of truth would be, "That which is true; that which is not false.".
"If the present is the only thing that can be experienced, how can the truth exist anywhere else?"
Are you positing that the phrase, "That which was true." doesn't indicate a truth that exists outside of the present moment?
"Have you ever experienced anything except for the present moment? You haven't, because it is the only perpetual moment you are ever aware of. Your whole life is a series of presents. It's always being given to you."
So you're basically positing here that time is illusory, am I correct?
"The past exists as thoughts/memories/stories etc, which are part of the present, and the future is always uncertain."
If you are positing that time is illusory, then that position necessarily includes the assertion that there is no past nor a future, and to assert that "The past exists...." would be contradictory to this position.
Would you care you clarify where you truly stand on these matters?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9805524 - 02/15/09 10:26 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:
Poid said:
"I'm selective about where, when and with whom I share the truth as much as I know it."
Why?
"It is the path of wisdom."
What is? Keeping secrets?
I also don't give hand grenades to 5 year olds. Would you? Same reason(s).
If they were able to wield them properly, why not?
The Middle East doesn't seem to think of children wielding powerful weapons as something taboo...
That explains why you cannot understand.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:
Poid said:
"I'm selective about where, when and with whom I share the truth as much as I know it."
Why?
"It is the path of wisdom."
What is? Keeping secrets?
I also don't give hand grenades to 5 year olds. Would you? Same reason(s).
If they were able to wield them properly, why not?
The Middle East doesn't seem to think of children wielding powerful weapons as something taboo...
That explains why you cannot understand.
I understand fully, I'm just saying that children need to grow up someday.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9805910 - 02/15/09 11:54 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Your posts don't indicate that. Simply put, just because someone may understand how to use an instrument it is unwise to allow them to do so or become complicit in their actions because a person was too foolish to know that certain tools and knowledge is reserved for those who can handle it responsibly.
If you truly understood that, your question wouldn't have been posted.
But know this explicitly, I don't trade words or argue with others for the sake of hearing myself type. I'm not the kind. That explains the dearth of my posts in this forum.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Your posts don't indicate that.
Maybe it's you who doesn't understand my posts, then?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9806467 - 02/16/09 05:25 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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it is hard to make a post understandable if it is a new or different idea, just keep trying.
good ideas are worth expressing clearly.
maybe the person does not have the same reference points so that is a good place to start.
are we talking about time, the experience of time as a sensory gestalt, the memory of times past, the imagination of future times, mechanical trajectories - or all of these things?
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~~~~~
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9806592 - 02/16/09 06:27 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Would you care you clarify where you truly stand on these matters?
It is indeed very difficult to put the truth in words, and that is why I first posted the book before I said anything. However, I will not refuse a request like this.
I prefer to leave the word I'm trying to define out of the definition. I see anything that is created by the mind as "untrue" or "false," and everything that exists without the mind as true. Something created by the mind can only come to life if you let the mind produce it (emotions, definitions, thoughts, etc.), and you have control over your mind. Creations of the mind are untrue. Life without the mind is true. Quite hard to put in words, so I hope that makes sense.
"That which was true" indicates the past truth. We can no longer experience it, we can only experience the present. We can learn from the past truth.
Time is based on perception; the more aware you are of your environment, the slower time moves from your perspective. So yes, I am positing that time is illusory, for time is based on perception and relative measurement.
I should have said, the past exists in the mind as thoughts/stories/memories, you cannot experience it anymore. You can only experience the truth, the present moment. You can dwell on the past and worry about the future, but it's all in the mind.
I hope I clarified instead of producing more contradictions, haha. What do you think?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Simply put, just because someone may understand how to use an instrument it is unwise to allow them to do so or become complicit in their actions because a person was too foolish to know that certain tools and knowledge is reserved for those who can handle it responsibly.
The truth is for everyone to share and use. You cannot "allow them to do so," only oneself can free oneself. However, you can help by showing the path. If you have something to add, please do. We're all human, just like you.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
...
I should have said, the past exists in the mind as thoughts/stories/memories, you cannot experience it anymore. You can only experience the truth, the present moment. You can dwell on the past and worry about the future, but it's all in the mind.
I hope I clarified instead of producing more contradictions, haha. What do you think?
so where is this experiencing of present moment (not mind?)
is remembering something excluded from the present moment?
is memory "not truth" even if it is experienced in the moment?
by avoiding the place of mind, or assigning mind to error or untruth you exclude the present altogether.
what you are probably excited about are the benefits of a mental calesthenic that enhances gestalt experiencing, which relaxes habits and lets more of the moment mix in your stream of consciousness.
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Diaboleros
Devil's spawn
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9807007 - 02/16/09 08:41 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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300 pages? I scrolled through it, it is very interesting, but it has no structure, no index, no titles, no chapters. The only way to read this document is to read it all.
Anyway, the truth is interesting, but what is more interesting is offering people a tool to find out truth for themselves. I use the 7 hermetic principles from the kybalion as the tools to find out truth. Mentalism, correspondence, vibration, polarity, rythm, causation, and gender. Easy to remember: www.kybalion.org/kybalion.asp
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
so where is this experiencing of present moment (not mind?)
is remembering something excluded from the present moment?
is memory "not truth" even if it is experienced in the moment?
You must let all of life in and reflect it back out. It is experiencing true life, life without the mind.
Memory is "not truth," even if it is remembered in the present moment, because it is still in the mind. You can't let it in and reflect it back out, you can only learn from/remember it in your head.
The present moment is experienced fully by becoming your senses and turning the mind completely off, which is difficult for us to fathom because we have been using the mind for thousands of years to identify our surroundings.
What do you think experiencing the present moment is?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
300 pages? I scrolled through it, it is very interesting, but it has no structure, no index, no titles, no chapters. The only way to read this document is to read it all.
The content is in a progressive order (not meant to be skipped around), there are sections filled with short paragraphs. You are right when you say the only way to read this document is to read it all. I was just trying to get some discussion started on the first part because there are a lot of ideas in the first ten pages, and most people don't want to read 300 pages right away.
I am not only here to share what I have found through seeking the truth, but I am here to learn all of your thoughts as well. We have no doubt endured some major life experiences, so I am very interested in your interpretations as well.
Your "tools" seem interesting, but "The Present" is written in a way where nearly everyone can understand the truths within it. It uses repetition, progressive thought, and evidence that you can check for yourself. Thanks for sharing though. =)
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Quote:
so where is this experiencing of present moment (not mind?)
is remembering something excluded from the present moment?
is memory "not truth" even if it is experienced in the moment?
You must let all of life in and reflect it back out. It is experiencing true life, life without the mind.
Memory is "not truth," even if it is remembered in the present moment, because it is still in the mind. You can't let it in and reflect it back out, you can only learn from/remember it in your head.
The present moment is experienced fully by becoming your senses and turning the mind completely off, which is difficult for us to fathom because we have been using the mind for thousands of years to identify our surroundings.
What do you think experiencing the present moment is?
experiencing is a function of mind.
all parts of self are in mind
trying to daemonize mind is stupid.
another aspect of mind is memory formation and recall (i.e. learning)
this is the sticky part of mind, the part that takes experiencing and weaves it into memory for later use.
through the ages people have noticed how things can get sticky.
everything about attachment relates fundamentally to this sticky quality of mind.
If your book is not clearer about this than 5000 years of Hindu mudras, then you are pushing poo.
don't try to separate mind from experience whatever you do, but you can find methods to enjoy experiencing more fully and be less mechanical in your life.
I suggest it will be an inclusive approach rather that a re-definitive approach of what we already know.
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Indigenous
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I would say that truth can only exist in the present moment not that the present moment is truth.
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BlueCoyote
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"You must let all of life in and reflect it back out. It is experiencing true life, life without the mind."
One can not experience anything without the mind. The mind is that what 'reflects'.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Take or leave my interpretations of the truth, you must seek the truth for yourself.
I am not here to argue, I just want to learn by seeking; seeking the truth is the path.
I showed you "The Present" because it made the truth self-evident to me; I posted the link in hopes that it would do the same for you.
Quote:
I would say that truth can only exist in the present moment not that the present moment is truth.
I like that thought and I agree with it. If we seek the truth, we can only find it in the present.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
One can not experience anything without the mind. The mind is that what 'reflects'.
The mind is what "thinks/processes." You reflect. The mind is a part of your body that dies with physical death. You are not your mind. You are an immortal spirit, being reborn every second, reflecting life in the present moment. Your mind reflects thought. You reflect life.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
Edited by Jethro Tull (02/16/09 12:02 PM)
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Indigenous
Stranger
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Take or leave my interpretations of the truth, you must seek the truth for yourself.
I am not here to argue, I just want to learn by seeking; seeking the truth is the path.
I showed you "The Present" because it made the truth self-evident to me; I posted the link in hopes that it would do the same for you.
Quote:
I would say that truth can only exist in the present moment not that the present moment is truth.
I like that thought and I agree with it. If we seek the truth, we can only find it in the present.
Until you realize time doesn't exist, then what are you going to do?
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
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I am not sure I understand what is implied here by the much mentioned word, truth.
The truth is recognizing the moment. Alright, check! I am failing to see the gravity here.
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Jesus loves you.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: The Present [Re: andrewss]
#9807946 - 02/16/09 12:08 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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his truth is to separate mind into you and and all the bad stuff
it's a pretty dumb trick but people are buying the book in droves; you can't argue too much with the money trail.
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BlueCoyote
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Hmmm.... what makes the 'you' more than the mind ?
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Until you realize time doesn't exist, then what are you going to do?
I don't understand what you're trying to say, can you please elaborate? I understand time as an illusion of the mind based on perception and relative measurement.
Quote:
Hmmm.... what makes the 'you' more than the mind ?
Read the first few pages of "The Present." It is easier than having me try to explain it.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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BlueCoyote
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There are enough other weird sites outside, too. But maybe I will risk a look , hehe
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learningtofly
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did we just get into an argument about dualism?
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
experiencing is a function of mind.
all parts of self are in mind
trying to daemonize mind is stupid.
another aspect of mind is memory formation and recall (i.e. learning)
this is the sticky part of mind, the part that takes experiencing and weaves it into memory for later use.
through the ages people have noticed how things can get sticky.
everything about attachment relates fundamentally to this sticky quality of mind.
If your book is not clearer about this than 5000 years of Hindu mudras, then you are pushing poo.
don't try to separate mind from experience whatever you do, but you can find methods to enjoy experiencing more fully and be less mechanical in your life.
I suggest it will be an inclusive approach rather that a re-definitive approach of what we already know.
I am not putting down the mind or trying to daemonize the mind. The mind has been a valuable tool to us and has brought us to our current state of awareness. However, the mind is the cause of all problems in this world. Nature is perfect, it must be perfectly balanced to exist. Manifestations of the mind are imperfect.
You are right when you say it must be an inclusive approach. We cannot just ditch everything we know, we must learn from it. The ultimate purpose of the mind is not to progress materially, because that will not change mankind, or the world. The ultimate purpose of the mind is to seek the truth until it is self-evident in our minds, and then we can live from our spiritual self, our actual self. The mind becomes a servant instead of a master, and we let all of life in and reflect it back out. We let love in, and reflect it back out. Life will come in with or without the mind, but the mind filters it out; it is the gatekeeper of life. The truth is the key.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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This is getting to be no better than Christian fundamentalism, Jethro, the denial, the externalization to a book, the lack of depth.
Mind is what you are, it is not your tool, it is all that you have been and your awareness too.
When you say mind is the source of all problems, you are being surprisingly simplistic, and basically wrong.
Nature which includes all beings in the universe and all the materials that are not sentient, as well as including mind itself and every single person's mind - well nature can develop some very fine cateclysms with absolutely no assistance from mind.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Like I said before, take or leave my interpretations of the truth. It is interesting to read what you have to say. So by saying that the mind is what we are, are you saying that life completely ends at death? Do you think that the mind is just a part of the brain, or something more? Is there a part of our consciousness that goes on that has nothing to do with our bodies?
Whats wrong with simplicity? Where do problems come from aside from the conscious mind? Nature is perfectly balanced and cyclical.
I agree that nature can do extravagant things without the mind; it is perfectly balanced. Do you think that nature would do the same things without our individual conscious minds?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
Edited by Jethro Tull (02/16/09 04:59 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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mind is balanced too.
garbage in garbage out.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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I'm talking about the conscious mind, the thinking/rationalizing/identifying mind. We can give our emotions life, or turn off our mind to them. We can dwell on thoughts, worry about the future, or we can turn off our thoughts and live in the present moment. How can something we are able to control be balanced like Nature?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Like I said before, take or leave my interpretations of the truth. It is interesting to read what you have to say. So by saying that the mind is what we are, are you saying that life completely ends at death?
Do you have evidence to the contrary?
Quote:
Jethro Tull said: Do you think that the mind is just a part of the brain, or something more? Is there a part of our consciousness that goes on that has nothing to do with our bodies?
Probably not, unless something metaphysical actually exists out there. But if there were something beyond the realm of the physical universe, we wouldn't be able to observe it
Quote:
Jethro Tull said:I agree that nature can do extravagant things without the mind; it is perfectly balanced. Do you think that nature would do the same things without our individual conscious minds?
I have no idea what you are saying here, "nature" doesn't need people in order for it to exist. Are you also implying that our minds have direct influence upon the physical universe?
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Do you have evidence to the contrary?
I do not have evidence of anything beyond the realm of the physical universe, as I am just a human like you, I was just posing a question.
Quote:
I have no idea what you are saying here, "nature" doesn't need people in order for it to exist. Are you also implying that our minds have direct influence upon the physical universe?
Again, I was posing a question; not implying anything. I'm trying to learn from you by asking questions; the quest to seek the truth is never ending. No matter how close I think I am to the truth, I will always be seeking. It is the path of a truth seeker.
We must have the wonderment of a child when it comes to life. Life is very mysterious, we may know what it does, be we cannot know what it is. We can never know it mentally, we can just be it, reflect it, experience the wonders.
Truth is self-evident to me; I can try to put it in words, but the same words will be perceived differently by everyone. These "back-and-forth" posts are making some interesting conversation, but I made this thread to talk about the ideas in "The Present," not my own interpretation. I think the book does a great job of rationalizing by being in the middle ground of religion and science, and I'd like to hear your opinions about it.
What do you think about the first page, with the drawing regarding "the mind blocking true life?" Do you agree that the mind filters life by focusing on what the mind thinks is important?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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1. You said you knew what the truth was and now you say you can never know the truth and we're on a constant quest?
2. I would say that the brain filters out stimuli that isn't perceived as important, not the mind. In either case, this is well accepted in the scientific community. If we paid attention to absolutely everything, it would be too hard to function. From an evolutionary standpoint this is necessary.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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I never said I knew what the truth was; I'm not here to preach. I just said the truth is self-evident to me and I posted this thread/book to help all of you. Helping others completely fulfills me and brings me into the present moment.
We must always seek, because there is always more to learn. We are a part of life, and life flows within us and without us; what could be more interesting in learning the truth about life and death? What could be more important? Life is everything.
By your last statement, I propose the question: Do you believe the mind is separate from the brain?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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"That which was true" indicates the past truth. We can no longer experience it, we can only experience the present. We can learn from the past truth.
Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
If the present is the only thing that can be experienced, how can the truth exist anywhere else?
This quote above contradicts the quote above it.
"Time is based on perception; the more aware you are of your environment, the slower time moves from your perspective. So yes, I am positing that time is illusory, for time is based on perception and relative measurement."
I thought it was based on my alarm clock? 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
deBunker
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
are we talking about time, the experience of time as a sensory gestalt, the memory of times past, the imagination of future times, mechanical trajectories - or all of these things?
All of them. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
I never said I knew what the truth was; I'm not here to preach.
really?
Quote:
Jethro Tull said: I just said the truth is self-evident to me and I posted this thread/book to help all of you.
So you say that the truth is self-evident to you but you don't know what the truth is? And you also said that the truth is the present? Quit contradicting yourself.
Quote:
Jethro Tull said:We must always seek, because there is always more to learn. We are a part of life, and life flows within us and without us; what could be more interesting in learning the truth about life and death? What could be more important? Life is everything.
Truth for humanity cannot be known because of the limit of our knowledge, by which I mean time, perspective, and that we don't have all the facts.
Quote:
Jethro Tull said:By your last statement, I propose the question: Do you believe the mind is separate from the brain?
No, I don't see any reason why I should think the contrary. I should now ask you what you hope to accomplish with this petty form of dialectic.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9810972 - 02/16/09 09:03 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
This quote above contradicts the quote above it.
It seems like you'd rather search my words for contradictions in text as opposed to reading the book and discussing it. You are wasting your time.
The truth can only be found in the present, because you can't be anywhere else; you can't look anywhere else. We can learn from the past by remembering it in our minds. You can play around with "was" and "is" all day long in your mind, but the present moment is still the only thing you will ever experience.
You should seek the truth instead of picking apart my statements; seeking will benefit you a lot more.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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I would much rather you retort than completely sidestep the questions.
Also, all you've said is where to look for truth. Which is blatently obvious and actually kind of pointless. You've basically said we need to look for truth in existence.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
I'm talking about the conscious mind, the thinking/rationalizing/identifying mind. We can give our emotions life, or turn off our mind to them. We can dwell on thoughts, worry about the future, or we can turn off our thoughts and live in the present moment. How can something we are able to control be balanced like Nature?
I do not know anybody that is in control of their mind.
I do know several people, however, who by practice have cultivated habits that are very good, like tending a garden, their minds become more lovely than they would be if just let run amok.
nature and mind are very similar.
oh, and as to the question of separating mind from brain.
this is not a question that is aimed at the moment but aimed at reaping other spiritual prejudices.
mind need not be viewed as brain to be understood in the larger sense, but mind as tied to brain is the best way to see mind in the present.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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I know you would much rather have me retort. It fuels your fire, your mind. You love playing mind games. I love helping people.
I've been repeating where to look for it because you need to find it yourself. I'm asking you to read the book because it really helped me understand some things. You need to seek, my friend.
Why do you care about what I have to say so much that you want to pick out every contradiction you can find? Are you trying to prove that I'm not omniscient or something? I already know I'm not, and you already know I'm not. I don't see the point in the petty mind games.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Poid
deBunker
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Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Quote:
This quote above contradicts the quote above it.
It seems like you'd rather search my words for contradictions in text as opposed to reading the book and discussing it. You are wasting your time.
The truth can only be found in the present, because you can't be anywhere else; you can't look anywhere else. We can learn from the past by remembering it in our minds. You can play around with "was" and "is" all day long in your mind, but the present moment is still the only thing you will ever experience.
You should seek the truth instead of picking apart my statements; seeking will benefit you a lot more.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
I know you would much rather have me retort. It fuels your fire, your mind. You love playing mind games. I love helping people.
I've been repeating where to look for it because you need to find it yourself. I'm asking you to read the book because it really helped me understand some things. You need to seek, my friend.
Why do you care about what I have to say so much that you want to pick out every contradiction you can find? Are you trying to prove that I'm not omniscient or something? I already know I'm not, and you already know I'm not. I don't see the point in the petty mind games.
And i've been repeating that I still don't see any reason to believe that book. I think the reason you won't retort is because you have nothing to retort. I've already made a prima facie so the burden of proof has been moved to you.
EDIT: Of course I would like you to retort, it's called seeking truth through debate. Unless you don't want to find truth... Where do you get off telling me that I love to play mind games and that you conversely love helping people as if we are polar opposites? That's not even relevant to the situation at hand.
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Edited by learningtofly (02/16/09 09:23 PM)
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Believe it if you need it, if you don't just pass it on. I've got nothing to prove to you, just a book to show you. I feel no imaginary "burden of proof." I could retort all day but it's not going to help me, or you, so why should I waste my time? I didn't start this thread to argue with you.
I have to get up early tomorrow, goodnight to you all. =)
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Poid
deBunker
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Loc: SF Bay Area
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--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Why do you consistently refuse to back up any of your claims? I don't care if you don't "feel" the burden of proof, it's on you. That's how argumentation/debate works.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
I didn't start this thread to argue with you.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9813142 - 02/17/09 07:50 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
So you say that the truth is self-evident to you but you don't know what the truth is? And you also said that the truth is the present? Quit contradicting yourself.
The truth is self-evident to me, but I'm not going to come out and say "I know what the truth is, indefinitely." There is always more to learn and I will always be seeking better ways to define and spread the truth. As of right now, "The Present," both the book and the perpetual moment, are the best ways I have found.
Quote:
Truth for humanity cannot be known because of the limit of our knowledge, by which I mean time, perspective, and that we don't have all the facts.
I agree that we don't have all the facts, but I'd say that we have enough of them, based on intuition and learning from the past. I think the truth can be known by humanity, and that it is ultimately the same for everyone. Who is to say we can't know it now, just because we haven't been able to know it before?
The truth is what can unite everyone; we are all the same, there is no reason we should look at another and think we are different from them. Separation and difference are deceptions of the mind. We are all reflections of life; we are all the same. I think the ultimate truth can unify everyone.
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No, I don't see any reason why I should think the contrary. I should now ask you what you hope to accomplish with this petty form of dialectic.
It was just a question to allow you to share your thoughts. I see a gap between mind and consciousness (life). I don't need my conscious/instinctual mind to live in the moment (although i may need it to survive), and I see it as a tool, the most useful tool there is. I can choose whether or not I want my emotions to take me over, or my thoughts to take me over. I can choose to just let life in through my senses without my mind identifying or filtering out anything. Without the conscious mind, I have no ego, no identity, I am just a spirit reflecting life. Without the conscious mind, I am life. I see the spirit as a void, a blank slate, that can either be filled with life, or filled with input from the mind. I think we all have the capability to take control of our conscious minds; to take control of our plane of existence.
I also think that there is a universal mind, the collective unconscious mind, which carries on after physical death. This is where intuition and awareness come from, which are not parts of our conscious or instinctual/animal mind. Life cannot completely end at death for the same reason energy cannot be created or destroyed, it takes on a different form with the collective unconscious mind. The collective unconscious mind is the x factor that guides evolution. This universal mind is part of life itself, and continues to become more and more aware as it learns more about existence through each individual's perception of life. We are a part of life, so we must seek out the truth through experience to fuel evolution. It is why we have the conscious mind. Perception and experience are needed for the unconscious mind to "grow." Experience is a sacrifice for the greater soul, the universal mind.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 2 days, 8 hours
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Without your conscious mind, u would be just a pile of flesh starring into nothingness, duh. If that's what life is for you...
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Yes, sentience.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Without your conscious mind, u would be just a pile of flesh starring into nothingness, duh. If that's what life is for you...
I'm not saying the conscious mind is unnecessary to experience life, I'm saying that we do not have to be controlled by it. The conscious mind is the valuable tool we use to interpret our senses/feelings/thoughts. We can control what we want the conscious mind to bring to life.
I'm trying to say we are not using the mind for it's true purpose by dwelling on the past and worrying about the future; or relying on myths/traditions about the truth of life and death rather than seeking it for ourselves. We must use the mind for it's ultimate purpose, to find the truth in the present. The truth can be known, and it will change mankind.
However, life is beyond our mental understanding, because it is infinite. We can know what life does, but we cannot know what it is. We can only be life. Life/Nature equates to the concept of God to me. Infinite, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, perfectly balanced. Life/Nature/God is everything.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 2 days, 8 hours
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Life is not infinite, nor eternal. Sorry Maybe you use different definitions of words than me 
I think, if there's a metaphysical (or spiritual) realm, and we will exist there somehow after (or while) life, this specific existence will not be called 'life'.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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I equate life to nature and the concept of God, so it is eternal and infinite because Life/Nature/God is everything. Life is not measurable, and is completely beyond mental understanding because it is infinite. We can only be/reflect life. What is your definition of life? Do you see life as the period between birth and death?
Our perceived world in our minds is not eternal, because the conscious mind dies at physical death, as it is a part of the brain/body; the world (thoughts/memories/reality/logic) ends every time someone dies. I infer that is the definition of "life" you are referring to.
I think the collective unconscious mind, or universal mind, that I was referring to in my last post, is the spiritual realm you speak of. Existence in the "spiritual" realm would be like a transition from one life to another, as life changes forms and cannot be created nor destroyed. I think that our highest point of awareness in each life is locked into the collective unconscious mind, and through the transition period after physical death (where perception does not exist), life takes new form with the awareness previously reached in the collective unconscious. That is how evolution is defined in my mind.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 2 days, 8 hours
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I see 'life' as something 'physical'.
Eternal life only applies to mystical/spiritual or metaphysical contexts, which is yet to be proven true...
Life on our planet could be destroyed entirely if an accordingly big meteor would hit our planet and we still don't know what makes life outside our limited vision/version of what we are able to perceive.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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I liked the parts that I briefly skimmed through! Hopefully I'll find some time to read all 400 pages, though. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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from now on I will not attempt to confuse you with the facts since you have established that you are clearly interested only in the "other" kind of truth
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~~~~~
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Your facts don't confuse me, I welcome any input. Please, state your facts and opinions.
What do you mean by the "other" kind of truth?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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I think the truth can be known by humanity, and that it is ultimately the same for everyone.
How can that be when we disagree. Are you saying you're wrong? Because I know I'm right.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
How can that be when we disagree. Are you saying you're wrong? Because I know I'm right.
You are right about what? The fact that our minds disagree?
Or are you saying that you know the truth? If so, please share your insights, or submit an entry to the contest. You can only help yourself by enlightening others.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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OK here's my truth. Nobody knows the truth and those that say they do are the farthest from it.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Nobody knows the truth and those that say they do are the farthest from it.
A very good point. Those who claim to know the truth are the farthest away, because one must seek the truth to find it. Someone who really wants to find the truth is always seeking, no matter how close they think they are. Do you believe that it is not possible to find the truth if we seek?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Trepiodos
Disgustipated
Registered: 06/30/06
Posts: 469
Loc: Los Angeles County Jail
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
OK here's my truth. Nobody knows the truth and those that say they do are the farthest from it.
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And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...
- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 22 days
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Quote:
So you say that the truth is self-evident to you but you don't know what the truth is? And you also said that the truth is the present? Quit contradicting yourself.
The truth is self-evident to me, but I'm not going to come out and say "I know what the truth is, indefinitely." There is always more to learn and I will always be seeking better ways to define and spread the truth. As of right now, "The Present," both the book and the perpetual moment, are the best ways I have found.
Quote:
Truth for humanity cannot be known because of the limit of our knowledge, by which I mean time, perspective, and that we don't have all the facts.
I agree that we don't have all the facts, but I'd say that we have enough of them, based on intuition and learning from the past. I think the truth can be known by humanity, and that it is ultimately the same for everyone. Who is to say we can't know it now, just because we haven't been able to know it before?
The truth is what can unite everyone; we are all the same, there is no reason we should look at another and think we are different from them. Separation and difference are deceptions of the mind. We are all reflections of life; we are all the same. I think the ultimate truth can unify everyone.
In order to know the truth you need to know every single fact, which is impossible because we are not gods. We can use probability to determine what is most likely the truth given the status quo. However that is as close as we will get. The truth CAN'T be known by humanity because the truth is objective and no human being is objective. As for "who is to say just because we haven't before, why can't we now?" Because we are limited by time and we cannot know the future, nor exactly what happened in the past because everything written down is bias to some degree.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
In order to know the truth you need to know every single fact, which is impossible because we are not gods. We can use probability to determine what is most likely the truth given the status quo. However that is as close as we will get. The truth CAN'T be known by humanity because the truth is objective and no human being is objective. As for "who is to say just because we haven't before, why can't we now?" Because we are limited by time and we cannot know the future, nor exactly what happened in the past because everything written down is bias to some degree.
There is always more to seek out and learn regarding what the truth is, because there are always more facts. Just because we can't know all the facts doesn't mean we shouldn't try to seek the truth. I think that the truth can become self-evident within the individual; I see truth in everything I encounter in the present moment, although I may not know every fact that exists. I don't know everything/all the facts, it is impossible, like you said, we are not gods. The truth is in the present moment, we can only find it now. Knowing all the facts would be knowing the whole truth, all the truths, which is not necessary nor possible for us. Seeing the truth in the present moment is something we can do. Do you think that the truth is the same for everyone? It may not mean the same thing for everyone, but is it the same?
"can use probability to determine what is most likely the truth.." is exactly what "The Present" does. I'd like to read your opinions about the book, you seem interested in this topic.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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teeter
Mindfucked
Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 1,081
Loc: Philadelphia PA
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9817974 - 02/17/09 11:35 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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hey this post is 100% irrelevant...disregard it, i just want to be able to keep this thread in the "My Threads" section so i wont forget to read it
peace
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"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." - William Blake
"Psychedelics helped me to escape.. albeit momentarily.. from the prison of my mind. It over-rode the habit patterns of thought and I was able to taste innocence again. Looking at sensations freshly without the conceptual overly was very profound." - Ram Das
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Quote:
Nobody knows the truth and those that say they do are the farthest from it.
A very good point. Those who claim to know the truth are the farthest away, because one must seek the truth to find it. Someone who really wants to find the truth is always seeking, no matter how close they think they are. Do you believe that it is not possible to find the truth if we seek?
Yes, not possible to find any ultimate truths. Seeking "truth" is a normal and natural way to attempt to relieve anxiety.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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What is your definition of 'ultimate truths'? I'd say that we cannot know everything, every fact, but we can find the truth in the present moment, so it is not necessary and impossible to know everything. The present is the ultimate truth from each individual perspective, because one cannot seek the truth anywhere else. Seeking the truth in whatever you experience in the present moment is the ultimate way to remove not only anxiety, but all negative aspects of the mind. You no longer dwell in the past, and you no longer worry about the future. It is not only a normal/natural way, it is the only way to truly live.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Well let me put it this way. Any "truth" that is not self evident to 99 44/100% of the population is subjective and therefore suspect. In other words just because you believe it's true don't make it so. Many of your statements are subjective and unsubstantiated outside of yourself and so don't mean shit as universal truth. This is a common problem here IMO.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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I see what you are saying; I don't deny that my statements make sense in my mind and don't hold true to others. Everyone must seek out the truth for themselves. My interpretations are different from yours, the truth means different things to different people within their own individual minds.
What I am saying is that the universal truth is the same for everyone. It may mean different things within individual minds, but we are all born, we all die, we all look at the same sky. We are all a part of life. The truth is not different between forms of the same life; the truth is the same for all of us, and that makes it the ultimate truth.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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So all you have described here are biological truths that can be experienced by virtually everyone. This does not apply to so called "spiritual" truths.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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The ultimate truth is "spiritual truth."
The book I posted describes it a lot better than I can.
That is why I posted the book before I said anything; my attempts at interpreting the ultimate truth are just a learning experience for me. I will never stop seeking, no matter how close I think I am to the truth. Thank you for helping me learn.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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The ultimate truth is "spiritual truth."
Here you make a claim about truth. A couple of posts ago you said that not everyone experienced the same truth as you and so yours and theirs was subjective.
Well, which is it going to be? You can't have it both ways.
Something isn't necessarily true because it's in a book. I know. I've read tons of them.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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It was indeed just another claim about the truth, trying to relate it to your last post. You didn't really specify what you think "spiritual truth" means, so I tried to make an assumption.
Quote:
Well, which is it going to be? You can't have it both ways.
It can be taken both ways. I am saying that each individual defines the truth differently in their own mind, so the meaning of the concept of "truth" is different for everyone. I am saying that we all interpret the same "ultimate truth" in different ways. The truth is the same for all of us, because we are all part of life; our interpretations of it our different.
I never said the book was true. I said the book describes the ultimate truth. It is another interpretation. I posted the link to the contest because I think it is a very good idea to help people get on the path of seeking the truth for themselves. I asked that you read the book because I found it to be a very detailed, understandable interpretation, with ideas that people can check for themselves and relate to their own lives.
Quote:
Something isn't necessarily true because it's in a book. I know. I've read tons of them.
Don't simply accept what the book says, check it for yourself. Books hold no truth unless you can find truth in them. Truth seekers like myself can gain a lot of insight from it (IMO); every time I read "The Present," I learn something new. The same goes for every post I read, and every post I write; I just keep learning more through seeking the truth.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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I'm done, you win.
What's next.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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I didn't win anything, I learned from you.
What I hope is next is your opinions about the book.
EDIT: Keep in mind when I say "you" or "your," I am talking to everyone that reads this thread. Feel free to provide your insight. =)
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
Edited by Jethro Tull (02/18/09 03:28 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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I learned from you.
Then you win.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Winning, losing, it's all the same to me. It is just the balance at work. I stay in the center. I value your opinion and insight more than the temporary state of mind of "winning" and "losing."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Yeah right.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Grapefruit
Obliviated
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 4,276
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Winning, losing, it's all the same to me. It is just the balance at work. I stay in the center. I value your opinion and insight more than the temporary state of mind of "winning" and "losing."
I badly wish i could do this lol. Darn that death anxiety.
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"So man's insanity is heaven's sense; and wandering from all mortal reason, man comes at last to that celestial thought, which, to reason, is absurd and frantic; and weal or woe, feels then uncompromised, indifferent as his God." - Herman Melville
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Grapefruit said:
I badly wish i could do this lol. Darn that death anxiety.
You can always be centered. You just have to realize that nature always balances. The best will be balanced by the worst and vice versa. Winning and losing are just illusions of the mind, you should be content with either, as everything will balance in time. Knowing the balance of nature is a key to perpetual contentedness with life itself. A love affair with life is a love that never dies.
The balance is a very key part of the book I am asking you to read, and it is described in much detail. Check for yourself whether it makes sense or not.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Any "truth" that is not self evident to 99 44/100% of the population...
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9823755 - 02/18/09 10:52 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Icelander, is it true that we can't know the truth?
Jethro, who are you?
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9825339 - 02/19/09 08:22 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'll give a brief introduction about myself, if that's what you so desire. =)
Quote:
Jethro, who are you?
Hello friends. I'm a truth seeker who wants to learn from you, as I am always seeking the truth. I am in a love affair with life, in and of itself; it is a love that never dies. Life is completely fulfilling, and I will always have everything I've ever wanted. I consider myself a spiritual being, one who sees himself in everyone, and therefore loves everyone. I consider myself a psychonaut, one who has seen beyond himself and learned a great deal from psychedelics. I am here to share with you what I have found on my path to seek the truth.
Some of my hobbies include playing guitar (rhythm, acoustic), singing, and performing. I gain most of my inspiration from The Beatles. I connect with lyrics; I become music. I also practice yoga and I enjoy riding my bike (weather permitting).
I am here to spread my love unconditionally, and I hope you all can learn from me as I seek to learn from you.
I look forward to seeking, spreading, and defining the truth of life with you all.
Other than that, I'm a university student majoring in psychology. Hope that answers your question.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9825601 - 02/19/09 09:21 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sure thing, I'll post it there too. I was just answering the question at hand.
Back to discussing "The Present."
Do you think it is possible to be completely fulfilled by life in the present moment, regardless of the situation you are in?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Poid
deBunker
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It largely depends on how you view life.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
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You mean like when you're being waterboarded?
Sure, isn't everyone?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
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I was talking about being fulfilled by the best and the worst. The greatest pleasure imaginable, or the greatest pain imaginable. No matter what you are experiencing, it is all part of life, part of nature. Nature is completely balanced, everything has two sides; pleasure/pain, winning/losing, good/bad. Why do you have to experience bad to get the good? You can separate yourself from the physical balance of life by seeing the truth.
It is all part of life, good or bad, so when you know it balances, you will always be in the center. It is whole life. When you accept the bad times for what they are (a part of whole life), it takes away all negative emotions of the mind (mad, sad, hate, worry, envy, be disappointed, be afraid, etc). You see past your mind and understand that everything will balance in time, so you can always be fulfilled by the present moment.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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I've been consistently saying that truth = "that which is." You have asked me how I came to this conclusion, and I say "because it is self-evident to me." I want to try to clarify by using logical arguments, so that maybe the truth will become self-evident to you.
Consider the following logical argument. A pen is placed in front of a mirror. One can see its reflection. To one's eyes, the image of the pen is perceived. Now, what should the image be called? It cannot be true, because it is an image. The truth is the pen. It cannot be false, because it is seen by our eyes.
Here is the third paragraph from, "The Present."
"The Rorschach inkblot test, is that inkblot that psychologists show to people and ask them what they see. Everyone will see something different depending on what their imagination comes up with. The truth is, it is an inkblot."
The truth is "that which is." Everything created by your mind is false. The image of the pen, the identification of the pen, is created by your mind. The pen itself is not created by your mind, so it is true. Your imagination brings different interpretations of the inkblot. The inkblot is that which is. The inkblot itself is true.
The present is always "that which is," because it always contains the truth. Everything you sense is true (see, hear, feel, smell, taste). Your mind may interpret your senses in different ways, but what you are sensing is unchanging. What you sense is always "that which is." Become your senses, not your mind. You just let life in, and reflect it back out. The present is always given to you; you just have to accept it.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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or the greatest pain imaginable.
Easy to say from your cosy computer chair.
I'm taking a wild guess that you have not experienced anything close to the great pain. Especially something cronic and long lasting. Any way I hope you get to test your theory out. For your edification of course.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Your assumption may be correct or incorrect, it makes no difference. I will always stay be centered and see pain for what it is, a part of whole/balanced life. I feel pain even more than those who try to block it out with the mind, because I embrace pain and let it pass, all things must pass. There is no point in denying physical pain. I'm sure I will be tested more than I have already been tested, and if I am not tested with something chronic and long lasting, I would be very lucky indeed.
Understand that this is no theory in my mind; the truth is self-evident. The more I talk about it, the more self-evident it becomes. Seeking the truth is an eternal learning experience for me.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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Your assumption may be correct or incorrect, it makes no difference. I will always stay be centered and see pain for what it is, a part of whole/balanced life.
Do you not see the contradiction here? If I am correct then you cannot be correct that you would stay centered in a real experience.
The more I talk about it, the more self-evident it becomes.
Ever heard the staying "talk is cheap".
Stay cozy.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
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Let me ask you this. In my mind it is self-evident that you speak from youthful folly.
Am I incorrect?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Mr. Mushrooms
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I would say you're not incorrect. Many men of older years know things younger men cannot possibly know. There is an education called life experience. You simply cannot have it at 20.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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In your mind, you are not incorrect if you do not think you are. You can believe whatever your mind creates, if you choose to give it life.
Quote:
You simply cannot have it at 20.
A perfect example of an illusion of the mind. You can believe that just because someone is younger than you, that they know less. Or you can try to learn from their own life experiences. When your mind is out of the way, age doesn't matter.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
Edited by Jethro Tull (02/20/09 08:38 AM)
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Indigenous
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
In your mind, you are not incorrect if you do not think you are. You can believe whatever your mind creates, if you choose to give it life.
Quote:
You simply cannot have it at 20.
A perfect example of an illusion of the mind. You can believe that just because someone is younger than you, that they know less. Or you can try to learn from their own life experiences. When your mind is out of the way, age doesn't matter.
If your mind is out of the way age doesn't matter, but most 20 year olds are mistaken when they think their mind is out of the way.
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Icelander
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In your mind, you are not incorrect if you do not think you are. You can believe whatever your mind creates, if you choose to give it life.
Nice way to say nothing while avoiding answering my question. Ever thought of going into politics or finance?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
Nice way to say nothing while avoiding answering my question. Ever thought of going into politics or finance?
I don't know how to answer your question, I do not have your mind. Only you can determine if you are correct or incorrect.
No, I haven't; I am not a big fan of politicians, or numbers, to answer your other question.
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most 20 year olds are mistaken when they think their mind is out of the way
Another illusion of the mind. Again, I am not a servant of my own mind and the truth is self-evident in all situations to me. What evidence do you have that most 20 year-olds are mistaken in their own thoughts?
EDIT: If age really means something to you, don't read what I have to say. Read "The Present." The author is likely older than you (given the current average life-span).
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
Edited by Jethro Tull (02/20/09 09:04 AM)
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Indigenous
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Get back to me in 25 years then you will know.
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Grapefruit
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It probably won't take that long in all fairness.
Jethro; you don't just read a book and then hey presto enlightenment, sorry but it just doesn't work like that. I went through the whole thinking i was enlightened for a few days but you really aren't.
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"So man's insanity is heaven's sense; and wandering from all mortal reason, man comes at last to that celestial thought, which, to reason, is absurd and frantic; and weal or woe, feels then uncompromised, indifferent as his God." - Herman Melville
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
Jethro; you don't just read a book and then hey presto enlightenment, sorry but it just doesn't work like that. I went through the whole thinking i was enlightened for a few days but you really aren't.
I understand what you are saying. The quest for "enlightenment" is ever-lasting. Those who think they are already know everything are the farthest away from the truth. I know that I am not fully "enlightened." This is a never ending quest to seek the truth and learn. I am on the path.
The book may or may not shed some light on you; what it really tries to do is help you realize that nobody is fully enlightened. It tries to put you on the path to seeking the truth for yourself.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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truth is self-evident in all situations to me.
Many delusional and insane people feel this way. (also fundamentalists)
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Delusions are defined as fixed, false beliefs. I don't believe anything that I cannot check for myself in the present moment; I just let life in and reflect it back out without getting my "fixed" mind made beliefs in the way.
Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I see the present as an ever-changing, perpetual moment. Life is always new to me. Everything I sense is new. I have no expectations for the future, because the future is uncertain.
You seem to be set on making assumptions about me. Would you care to provide some of your own insights?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Indigenous
Stranger
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
No, that is not the definition of insanity. I don't know where that crap comes from. Insanity is a persistent mental disorder or derangement. It is also an outdated term. Now specific disorders are listed as opposed to the general term insanity.
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Lakefingers
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you're shitting us and yourself now
no one can check their beliefs (all their beliefs nonetheless) when they are instantiated
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Icelander
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I made no public assumptions about you. Please show me in that post where I did.
Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
To correct you this is a common folk or street definition of insanity or neurotic behavior. Try the dictionary for definition.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
Many delusional and insane people feel this way.
You said that right after quoting me, which was taken by me as an indirect assumption.
EDIT: You also assumed I am cozy sitting in my computer chair. It's actually quite uncomfortable; a few pieces of plastic held together by some thin metal rods, and no padding. Standard issue at this university. 
I read the dictionary definition and I stand corrected. It seems Indigenous has an accurate definition posted. As not to contradict my previous statements, I think that insanity is also an illusion of the mind. People can tell you that you are insane, and you can believe you are insane, but it's all in the mind.
You are not your mind.
Let me ask you, what is it that "hears" your thoughts? What is it that is hearing the thoughts that you are thinking right now?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
Edited by Jethro Tull (02/20/09 10:49 AM)
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Icelander
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Let me ask you, what is it that "hears" your thoughts? What is it that is hearing the thoughts that you are thinking right now?
My brain silly. (Actually my brain interprets it as hearing itself is my guess) Without my brain I'm guessing there is nada going on.
Come on, ask me something hard.
Someday you might grow to realize that everyone is guessing about everything.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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"
Hello friends. I'm a truth seeker who wants to learn from you, as I am always seeking the truth. I am in a love affair with life, in and of itself; it is a love that never dies. Life is completely fulfilling, and I will always have everything I've ever wanted. I consider myself a spiritual being, one who sees himself in everyone, and therefore loves everyone. I consider myself a psychonaut, one who has seen beyond himself and learned a great deal from psychedelics. I am here to share with you what I have found on my path to seek the truth.
Some of my hobbies include playing guitar (rhythm, acoustic), singing, and performing. I gain most of my inspiration from The Beatles. I connect with lyrics; I become music. I also practice yoga and I enjoy riding my bike (weather permitting).
I am here to spread my love unconditionally, and I hope you all can learn from me as I seek to learn from you.
I look forward to seeking, spreading, and defining the truth of life with you all.
Other than that, I'm a university student majoring in psychology. Hope that answers your question. "
Once you find truth this answer will be much shorter.
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Indigenous
Stranger
Registered: 01/08/09
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
As not to contradict my previous statements, I think that insanity is also an illusion of the mind. People can tell you that you are insane, and you can believe you are insane, but it's all in the mind.
You are not your mind.
Let me ask you, what is it that "hears" your thoughts? What is it that is hearing the thoughts that you are thinking right now?
That is a common spiritual idea that there is a watcher and a thought generator. Insanity may not be understood outside of a materialistic view, but the inability to function isn't an illusion.
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xFrockx
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"Let me ask you, what is it that "hears" your thoughts? What is it that is hearing the thoughts that you are thinking right now?"
I don't know about you, but I don't hear thoughts. I consider my thoughts to be as much a part of me as my arms.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9833347 - 02/20/09 11:50 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Someday you might grow to realize that everyone is guessing about everything.
Again, you are not seeing past the mind's illusion of age. You talk down to me because I am younger than you. I realize that everything in our minds is an interpretation, have I not stated that before? "I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing." I am on a path of learning/seeking/"guessing" for eternity.
xFrockx, that was a post to answer the question: "Who are you."
Quote:
Once you find truth this answer will be much shorter.
Are you saying that you have found the truth?
The brain/mind interprets your thoughts, but what receives them as they happen, in the present moment? There is a difference between "hearing" and thinking. You do not actually hear your thoughts, because they are already inside your head. Your mind does the thinking, your spiritual-self receives, or "hears" the thoughts. Check it for yourself. Try to find the gap between receiving and thinking.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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"Are you saying that you have found the truth?"
The truth is easy to find, it can be expressed with silence. Where is your mind, and what is it made of?
"Try to find the gap between receiving and thinking. "
I don't know what you're talking about.
Edited by xFrockx (02/20/09 11:58 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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You talk down to me because I am younger than you.
Not really true. There are young folk that I consider mature and aware, even wise. You just don't happen to be one of them. However in general age does make a difference. I have the advantage here in that I have experienced the aging process and can see the change in my beliefs and attitudes from having a long life experience. You on the other hand have no way of knowing what I'm talking about. You have only been young and do not know what may happen to your beliefs down the road.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9834674 - 02/20/09 04:05 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The truth is easy to find, it can be expressed with silence. Where is your mind, and what is it made of?
I agree, the truth simply is; there is no need to describe it. Nothing more than silence is needed, but not everyone understands that. We can always attempt to describe the truth for those whom silence does not satisfy.
As for the mind, I see the mind as a part of the body. There are two levels, the instinctual mind that we are born with, and the conscious mind that grows as we grow in time. As for where it is, I would say the brain. As for what it is made of, I say energy. The mind is something, whether it be neurons firing or electrical cues in the brain. The mind is a part of our body that dies at physical death.
I see the spirit, or consciousness, as a void, a "nothing." As BlueCoyote said earlier in this thread: "Without your conscious mind, u would be just a pile of flesh starring into nothingness, duh." We need our conscious mind to experience life, it fills the void. The mind is something (energy) and the spirit/consciousness is best described as "nothing."
We just use the mind too much, and let it control us. You can control your own mind, you choose whether to give your mind life or not. Take control of the mind, and it becomes your humble servant whenever you want to use it. Just realize you are not your mind, and let all of life flow into you. The mind and consciousness are so close together that most people do not realize that there is a gap. You do not have to give life to your conscious mind, or even your animal instincts (instinctual mind). You can be a spiritual being. Instead of the mind rushing in to fill the void, let life in to fill the void.
As for you Icelander, you may be right about having more life experiences than me. I have different ones though. There is no trade-off for different life experiences. Therefore, age does not matter. That is why I learn from all of you, we all have different life experiences.
I know exactly what you are talking about as far as beliefs and attitudes changing with time. It has happened to me over the course of my life many times, sometimes in drastic fashions. I'm sure the same goes for you.
Have you heard the saying, "It's not about the years in your life, but the life in your years?" Age is an illusion of the mind. Learn from me as I learn from you, my friend.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
I would say you're not incorrect. Many men of older years know things younger men cannot possibly know. There is an education called life experience. You simply cannot have it at 20.
 , that's what they all say. Are you saying that there are no middle aged people who are stupid or 20 year olds who are geniuses?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9835382 - 02/20/09 07:09 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
, that's what they all say. Are you saying that there are no middle aged people who are stupid or 20 year olds who are geniuses?
Intelligence does not equal experience.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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"I see the spirit, or consciousness, as a void, a "nothing." "
I see the "spirit" as an adaptive illusion created in reality, by reality. I do not believe in "nothing" or nothing. "Nothing exists" is a contradiction. Honestly, I feel unjustified anymore when I use the pronouns I or me, they refer to an incomplete thing, a flux within a flux, that is only a part of the whole, and not a whole itself. When I is used, it separates its user from reality, saying that they are an entity within themselves.
Edited by xFrockx (02/20/09 08:29 PM)
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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How old are you, IceLander?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: The Present [Re: deCypher]
#9837662 - 02/21/09 08:32 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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You're right.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9837963 - 02/21/09 09:43 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I agree with you deCypher; I think you a shorter way of saying what you said is "we're all one." As for the concept of spirit, I see it as an unseen "x" factor that guides the evolution of life. It is sometimes referred to as the collective unconscious, holy spirit, universal mind, Akashic records see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records It is beyond our mental understanding, so I agree that 'spirit' is an adaptive illusion of the mind.
As for the concept of "nothing," I'd like to take out an excerpt from "The Present," as this concept is quite difficult for my mind to grasp. Tell me what you think.
"The nature of nothing: If you take away everything that is physical (matter/energy) your left with nothing (no thing). Nothing is completely empty space, absolute cold, silence and darkness. “Nothing” is infinite, eternal and indestructible, it does not move; it does not have to, it is already everywhere. The universe is more than 99.9999999% empty space.
Even our own bodies are mostly empty space. All physical things are because atoms are mostly empty space. There is a small amount of energy like light and radio waves passing through the entire universe, but it is essentially an infinite void, with a little matter and energy.
Our spirit is also like nothing. It is the so-called empty space between everything, the majority of everything is nothing and it connects everything, everywhere. Our essential immortal self or soul is like the blank sheet that physical life is written on, the darkness that gives light a place to shine, the silence that gives sound a place to be heard. An infinite stadium that the game of life is played in. Nothing is more than something. It is the complete opposite of what people think. It is impossible to get your mind around, all you can do is know it is true and be it.
There are some things that are beyond the mind, literally. You can only know them or in this case be them, when the mind is turned off completely.
You cannot experience nothing: You do not look inside yourself to find yourself as some eastern religions have been saying; there is nothing there. You cannot see or experience nothing, it is impossible. You can be like nothing, but not experience it. There is nothing to experience.
What does the experiencing cannot be experienced.
Spiritual perspective: You do not look in, you do the opposite and you look out through your senses. When you experience everything, you experience nothing at the same time. You have to be nothing to experience everything. If you are something, there is no room for everything. It is the spiritual perspective. You are looking out from nothing to everything, from nowhere to everywhere, from stillness to movement, from darkness to light."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Indigenous
Stranger
Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 814
Loc: Celestial Realm
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Most of what you have quoted from the book is the immaterial being expressed in materialistic terms. This is just all backwards. In eastern religions the world is an illusion. What is experienced is not real, what does the experiencing is real. You do look in because out is illusion.
Enlightenment is when you realize that you are not here!
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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I also understand the world/reality to be an illusion, because we create it with our minds. However, what actually "is," is not an illusion. Again, I will say this.
"Consider the following logical argument. A pen is placed in front of a mirror. One can see its reflection. To one's eyes, the image of the pen is perceived. Now, what should the image be called? It cannot be true, because it is an image. The truth is the pen. It cannot be false, because it is seen by our eyes."
The pen is true. Not our identification, or perceived image of the pen. The pen itself is "that which is."
Interesting thoughts Indigenous.
Let me ask you, what constitutes "looking in" in your mind?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Indigenous
Stranger
Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 814
Loc: Celestial Realm
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You are describing everything in materialistic terms. You have to transcend materialism beyond the limitations of cause/effect.
During meditation and other spiritual practices the illusions will drop out.
I will quote a few random people.
Thoughts are like fish jumping out of the ocean. You are the stillness of the ocean.
You exist outside of time and space. The ego is like a probe you have sent to investigate space and time.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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And as for you jt.  Learn from me as I learn from you, my friend.
Well I will admit that at least you reinforce what I have learned about people in general.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
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Quote:
You are describing everything in materialistic terms. You have to transcend materialism beyond the limitations of cause/effect.
As xFrockx said earlier: "The truth is easy to find, it can be expressed with silence." It would be nice if silence worked for everyone, but most people cannot understand this concept. Materialistic terms are needed until then. If silence was understood as the best way to transcend materialism, we wouldn't be having this conversation in this thread.
Quote:
Well I will admit that at least you reinforce what I have learned about people in general.
Please share how I have reinforced what you have learned about people in general. What is this generalization that you have?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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 Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
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Posts: 4,200
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"The Present" presents a lot of information, and I can see reading through the first couple pages that much of it is -wrong-, or rather, someone felt some truth and decided that all their opinions that made them feel good must be truth as well.
Don't get me wrong, I find that stuff interesting, for more than one reason, but I'm curious, is there a specific statement, or something you can put into words, that would characterize what the book stands for? Reason being, there's a lot to debate in that book.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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oh, 'nothing' is not even space, if empty or not. It's not even time. It's outside our space-time continum.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: Rahz]
#9839841 - 02/21/09 03:13 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
..someone felt some truth and decided that all their opinions that made them feel good must be truth as well.
An accurate description. The book is the author's interpretation of the ultimate truth. Interpretations are always opinions. Opinions will only be entirely -right- for those who make them.
Quote:
...is there a specific statement, or something you can put into words, that would characterize what the book stands for.
There is indeed a lot of content. I will summarize what the book stands for in a few short statements. What I put in quotes is directly from the book.
There is only one ultimate truth for all beings of life, although there are many interpretations. There are an infinite amount of wrong answers, but only one true answer.
Our minds are to be our servants, not our masters. We are not our minds.
"Only the truth and the life will matter to you, because they are the only things that really exist and the only things that can save us. Everything else is just BS created by the mind. You have only one choice to make, to be an animal or a spiritual being."
What goes around comes around. Understanding the balance of nature is the first step to becoming a spiritual being. "Everything is balanced, so there is no reason not to be fulfilled every moment, no matter what is happening or not happening. The present is for you. You just have to accept it."
The goal of the book explains how we can become spiritual beings, and how most inspired prophets were saying the same thing. The book explains how we can change the world by changing ourselves.
Lots of content, but it is a progressive read. Although you may not agree with all the opinions, they all relate to the goal of the book.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
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Last seen: 5 minutes, 2 seconds
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If the truth is the truth, does it need to be progressive?
It seems a lot like the Handbook of the Navigator. 
I am reading it, because as I said, I like stuff like that. There's usually some things that make me think in different ways.
But when someone states that dogs and cat's can't think, because they don't have minds, and that they must hold people, or, beings who were once people, I just have to kinda go 
Is that the truth?
Or was it written by an opinionated guy who sometimes feels some truth, and sometimes is expressing their fantasy, seeing something that does not exist?
But I'll digress, I did ask for a summary. I like your summary.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
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Re: The Present [Re: Rahz]
#9840044 - 02/21/09 03:56 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Or was it written by an opinionated guy who sometimes feels some truth, and sometimes is expressing their fantasy, seeing something that does not exist?
The book itself and the content in it is not the truth. It is the author's interpretation of the truth. I would describe the author as someone who had some inspiration run through him, and spilled out his thoughts and opinions. He spilled out his interpretation of the truth. He adds to the content by expressing fantasy and attempting to explain the unseen/unknown.
By a "progressive read," I meant that content builds on itself throughout the book.
Thank you Rahz. You seem like a curious person with an open mind, who doesn't hesitate to read/question new thoughts and express your own opinions. =)
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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PowerTrip
Polypharmaceutical Shaman
Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 1,148
Loc: The void
Last seen: 7 months, 23 days
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9842263 - 02/21/09 11:48 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
I read some stuff form that site, some of it seems well meaning, but the truth is no one knows anything, we cannot express fundamental truths about reality with words, we may only experience it. Who knows what happens when we die, logic could be totally irrelevant.
To paraphrase Eckhart Tolle, words can still be used as a signpost to point towards reality.
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I spit reality, instead of what you usually learn
and I refuse to be concerned with condescending advice
cause I'm the only motherfucker that can change my life
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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Who needs a signpost when its right in front of you (and is you too)?
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9843134 - 02/22/09 09:21 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Who needs a signpost when its right in front of you (and is you too)?
Those who don't realize that the 'signpost' is right in front of them.
All that really matters is that you understand the truth for yourself, but helping others see the path through 'words' is the natural, righteous thing to do for a spiritual being.
Giving = Receiving.
Trying to make the world a better place by spreading love unconditionally is fulfilling to me. Showing "The Present" to you is my way of doing this.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Some things to possibly spark some more thought and describe "The Present" a bit more. Keep in mind these are direct quotes copied out of the book.
"As unbelievable as it may be, this is the first book of religious truth that is backed up by hard evidence. It will be very unpopular, because it is the truth."
"Prove it is not true: Some things are so far out, that people say, you cannot prove what I believe is not true. That is true, but the truth is not found were you cannot prove it is wrong or right, it is found were you can prove it is right.
We are not looking for truth that cannot be proved wrong or right, we are looking for what can be proven true beyond a reasonable doubt.
When all the evidence says it is true and none says it is false, it is true.
Truth check: There are four quick tests you can use to determine what the truth is and what is not the truth. The first is Acoms Razor that says the simplest most obvious explanation usually is the true explanation. The second is the real truth can be checked in the real world.
If it cannot be checked by hard evidence, it can be checked with logic and reason; if it does not make sense, it is most likely not true. The third is, if it sounds like a fairytale, it probably is. The last and hardest for most people is, you have to be honest with yourself.
You have to admit you do not know the truth to make room for the truth.
"
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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sounds like a bossy little book
good if people have no sense of their own path
have someone tell them what to think, what they have to admit - compel them to buy this book...
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~~~~~
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Please share how I have reinforced what you have learned about people in general. What is this generalization that you have?
Most people are idiots.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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TameMe
Stranger
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you mean Occam's Razor?
edit:
if that's a direct quote from the book, and they misspell Occam, what does that say about the intelligence of the author and their knowledge of the truth?
Edited by TameMe (02/22/09 03:16 PM)
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: TameMe]
#9845110 - 02/22/09 03:30 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
compel them to buy this book...
The book is free for everyone to share.
Quote:
what does that say about the intelligence of the author and their knowledge of the truth
Intelligence has nothing to do with knowledge of the truth. A child can understand the ultimate truth.
"It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know."
Henry David Thoreau
You must see past the minds illusions of grammatical errors.
As I said in my first post, the writing is not perfect. It is far from 'perfect grammar.' Disregarding the content because of misspelled words shows a great example of the power the mind holds on you.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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TameMe
Stranger
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Quote:
Disregarding the content because of misspelled words shows a great example of the power the mind holds on you.
i simply asked a question. i didn't actually disregard anything....although If I read it I probably would disregard it.
Quote:
Intelligence has nothing to do with knowledge of the truth.
Do you know the meaning of the word 'intelligence'?
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: TameMe]
#9845619 - 02/22/09 05:17 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
although If I read it I probably would disregard it.
Give it a try. What do you have to lose?
Quote:
Do you know the meaning of the word 'intelligence'?
Yes. You implied that the author's knowledge of the truth was flawed because of a misspelled word, without reading any of the book. Is that intelligent?
Intelligence is certainly needed to write a book, as writing a book like "The Present" requires the abilities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, and to use language. The author tries to help readers understand the ultimate truth through reasoning and logic, which requires intelligence (intellect).
To comprehend "The Present," you need to be intelligent enough to read the English language and make connections in your own mind. More importantly, you have to be honest with yourself.
The author tries to find a medium between simplicity of words and repetitive detail, so that most people (not just intellectuals) can understand and relate to the content. If you think you can do better, submit an entry to the contest.
Like I said before, I can play mind games all day, I don't expect them to just disappear. All I'm trying to do is share this book with you to see if it does anything for any of you. That was the original purpose of this thread, and it will remain the original purpose of this thread.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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TameMe
Stranger
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so then you retract your earlier statement that 'intelligence has nothing to do with knowledge of the truth'?
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: TameMe]
#9845962 - 02/22/09 05:54 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
so then you retract your earlier statement that 'intelligence has nothing to do with knowledge of the truth'?
No. The truth is. The truth requires no intelligence to know.
However, we are not at that point yet as mankind, so we must use our intelligent minds to seek the truth until we are at the point of 'knowing.' To learn and understand the truth through reasoning and logic requires intelligence. "The Present" was written to help people be honest with themselves so that they can find peace of mind.
What is your definition of 'knowledge of the truth?'
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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TameMe
Stranger
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what the hell does the sentence "The truth is." mean?
My truth is that there is no single all encompassing Truth. There are things that seem true in our world...like mathematics for example. Knowledge of these things is what I consider to be knowledge of the truth.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: TameMe]
#9846594 - 02/22/09 07:30 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Some more direct quotes from the book. Hopefully they will convince you to give the book a try. You literally have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
"Hammer or nail: In the past, you had to choose between being the hammer or the nail. Naturally, most people would choose to be the hammer, even if the beast was holding it, especially if the beast was holding it. Just recently, science has offered people another choice, but it is cold and incomplete. Science and religion have been the only two choices people have had, so they had to choose one, even though neither gives people the ultimate truth they are seeking.
New choice: This book offers a third option for the first time. It is new revelations of the truth that are a combination of science, religion, art, philosophy, past and present, common sense and everything else that reveals the truth. With the new truth, you do not have to be the hammer or the nail; you can be something much more and get rid of the hammer and nail altogether.
Everyone can be right: For the first time people have a third choice that incorporates the others. A choice that does not require them to give up their current belief system. It says everyone is right, if you know how to see the truth. It has to be the way, because any other way would cause conflict not peace.
It also makes sense and gives people a complete picture of the ultimate truth. You do not have to give up religion and science to embrace the third way, you get into them more. You just get into everything more. The present encompasses everything.
It is all true. If you know what the truth is, you can see it in everything."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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This book is not a good read. It is not meant to entertain you. It is meant to transform you from a unfulfilled mortal animal, into a fulfilled immortal spiritual being. If you want to be entertained, read a good work of fiction.
We can change the world by changing ourselves. Wake up.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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This begins with a look in the mirror. Wake up!
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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I'm going to try a new approach, because me feeding shit to you is not what you want to hear, or discuss. I'll take lines from the book, and hear out your opinions. I said I want to learn from you, and lately I have been doing more sharing than learning. ...and so it goes.
"There is life and the imagination, there is nothing else, true or false?"
What are your thoughts on that line from "The Present?"
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Duh. Is this supposed to be a revelation? He's stating something obvious unless I'm missing something. Although to be honest I don't know if there is anything else.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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if everyone is right, then they are right that you should wake up.
"There is life and the imagination"
I disagree with both of these, unless you mean that life and imagination exist as thoughts (which are still part of the one reality). These distinctions do not really exist, but they are useful for our purposes of speech.
"there is nothing else, true or false"
That is a dichotomy I cannot endorse.
Edited by xFrockx (02/23/09 02:57 PM)
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9851939 - 02/23/09 05:40 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I disagree with both of these, unless you mean that life and imagination exist as thoughts (which are still part of the one reality).
I understand that the concept of life wouldn't exist without thought, but are you saying that life itself wouldn't exist without thought?
I see where you're coming from Icelander. What do you all think of this? Maybe it won't seem as "obvious."
"True life is perfect: You can see and experience a perfect life, because that is the way life actually is. It is just our minds that mess it up.
It is hard to believe from your current perspective and level of awareness, but it is true. It is your own mind that makes life imperfect. The universe has to be perfect to exist. Everything in the universe is perfect except our minds."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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"This book is just the spark that will get people talking about the real truth. I am just a guy with a match that is trying to start a truth fire.
Tuned in: I am just a tuned in guy, throwing out things I can see, that no one else seems to see. When others start to see them, people will come together and better define the truth and the life. We will see the issues clearly for the first time and the solutions to our problems; we will then solve them as fast as is possible."
The truth needs all of your help to define. This book is a spark, we are the kindling; bring what you know to the table and we can really get this going.
This book is clearly not the easiest way to define the truth; it is over 300 pages long. Come together and help. Come on! It's such a joy!
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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will get people talking about the real truth.
What a fuckin hoot.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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What makes you alive? In other words, what is about you makes you different from a rock? "life" is very possibly a myth. Your "imagination" could be nothing more than the sum of all thats put into it, such that there is no "you," only an illusion of self. I don't know personally, but I don't even know that I don't know, and I don't even know that... or that... or that...
You dig?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9854897 - 02/24/09 08:15 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I dig and must say it's refreshing (IMO) to hear a bit of honesty.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
What makes you alive? In other words, what is about you makes you different from a rock? "life" is very possibly a myth. Your "imagination" could be nothing more than the sum of all thats put into it, such that there is no "you," only an illusion of self. I don't know personally, but I don't even know that I don't know, and I don't even know that... or that... or that...
We are part of the whole, part of perfect the perfect balance of nature. Self is an illusion, you are not separate from anything in the universe. Imagination is part of your mind; which is created by your environment. Your mind creates the illusion that you are 'special' or separate. We are all one.
What makes me alive? I know for certain that I'm going to die. I have never experienced anything other than life. It is impossible to be conscious of being unconscious, to be aware of not being aware. I am not aware of any gaps in life. I am immortal, because it is impossible for me not to be immortal. Are you aware of any gaps in life? Have you ever experienced anything except for life?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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It would be helpful if you attributed these quotes to the person who posted them. The Icelander did not.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I dig and must say it's refreshing (IMO) to hear a bit of honesty.
Well you 'dug,' so I assumed you could figure it for yourself by scrolling up a bit.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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If you need help with this then PM me and I can walk you through the process. It really helps to clarify things and keep the threads moving alone.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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"Have you ever experienced anything except for life? "
I have never experienced life itself.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9861367 - 02/25/09 07:38 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
"Have you ever experienced anything except for life? "
I have never experienced life itself.
What have you experienced then?
What is there other than life, other than nature? Everything you sense/experience is nature. Everything is given to you by nature (including life). Everything is balanced by nature, controlled by the unchanging laws of nature. You cannot understand what it is like to experience anything other than nature/life, because you never have experienced anything else.
Nature/Life in the present moment is "that which is."
Knowing the balance of Nature/life in the present moment is understanding "that which is."
There is nothing else besides nature, except for your imagination, which is an illusion shaped by your perceived environment. The mind itself is part of nature, a part of your brain, and is a valuable tool that helps you experience nature, but the illusions it creates are under your control. The creations of the mind are not part of "that which is" unless you give them life. The illusions of the mind block out Nature/life and knowledge of it's balancing force in the present moment.
Does that make sense to you?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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"but the illusions it creates are under your control."
If the mind is nature, then I am nature, my control is nature, illusions are nature.
But thats just based off what you said. Let me reiterate what I believe is truth: I have no idea.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9868247 - 02/26/09 07:34 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
If the mind is nature, then I am nature, my control is nature, illusions are nature.
But thats just based off what you said. Let me reiterate what I believe is truth: I have no idea.
Interesting thought. I agree that the mind is part of nature, as nature gives us life. However, the balance of nature is completely out of our control; we cannot change "that which is." We can manipulate nature to better suit our needs, but the balance cannot change and be perfect.
The mind is under our control, however. Nature gives us this control. The illusions are not part of nature; they are based on the individual perception of their environment. Illusions are not true, so they cannot be part of "that which is." Your mind's creations are not part of the balance of nature, as you can choose whether to give them life or not. Nature gives you the ability to do this, but the mind is your tool.
You say you have no idea what the truth is. Do you think the truth can be known/understood? Are you sincerely looking for it?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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" Nature gives us this control."
Does it?
"You say you have no idea what the truth is. Do you think the truth can be known/understood? Are you sincerely looking for it? "
I don't know if we can't know, or if we can. I stopped searching a long time ago, everything is truth until someone tries to wrestle it with words.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9868406 - 02/26/09 08:27 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
" Nature gives us this control."
Does it?
"You say you have no idea what the truth is. Do you think the truth can be known/understood? Are you sincerely looking for it? "
I don't know if we can't know, or if we can. I stopped searching a long time ago, everything is truth until someone tries to wrestle it with words.
Check for yourself if you have control over your mind. That's something I can't show you. If you have ever been in a meditative state, or on any psychedelic drug, I'm sure you already know how powerful the mind can be. Just see the mind for what it is; a tool that is under your control. You can choose to give the illusions life, even though it seems as though the illusions control you at times.
Never stop searching for the truth; the endless learning experience of truth seeking is the mind's ultimate purpose, it is the path. Even if you think it cannot be known, or even if you think you already know, there is always more to learn.
Do you think the truth is impossible to express in words?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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"Just see the mind for what it is; a tool that is under your control."
Nah thats ok, I'm not convinced.
"Do you think the truth is impossible to express in words? "
I think the truth is words, and people, and water, and trees, and televisions, and mushrooms, and xanax, and war, and peace, freedom, and slavery.
Everything is truth, but beliefs are not the whole story.
Its just one big joke without a punchline.
Edited by xFrockx (02/26/09 11:09 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9869269 - 02/26/09 11:22 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Everything is truth, but beliefs are not the whole story.
IMO most beliefs are just self-importance, indulgence and ego gratification among other things.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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Including that one?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9869458 - 02/26/09 11:55 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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How could it not be? I am Icelander.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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A quote from page 388 of "The Present (with religion)." Does it make sense to you?
"A mirror reverses things and the truth and the life is the exact reverse of how you are now. If you talk to yourself (in private) and really listen to your own voice, you will suddenly notice your mind is doing the talking and your spirit (you) are doing the listening. It is an easy way to remind yourself that you are not your mind. You cannot be your mind, because you are what is listening to it. You are actually both, your mind and spirit, but you will realize you are a lot more your spirit, than your mind. You will realize that your mind is under the spirits control.
Control: You realize that your spirit is in complete control of your mind. It will never make you feel or do anything negative again. It is the start of true life. At first, it will be scary and the fear will cause you to snap back into the illusion of self, but the cat is out of the bag, so to speak and you will gradually discard the illusion a bit at a time. It will be a little scary at first, but fear is just the mind."
It's hard to take parts out of such a large work and expect you to understand them. Yet it is also hard for people to take the time to read the entire book.
Everyone is welcome to participate in this conversation, not just Icelander and xFrockx. (I love you guys too, no worries  )
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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this type of example is a mind game that attempts to fragment a part of a mind against another part, while in fact there is no such separation.
the fault of making this into a habit is to create more than one persistent entity - a common christian dilemma: devil angel,
daemonizing any part of the self is a bad habit that christians think everyone should do.
the present is powerful, the power of the now is all about that, all of buddhism is about that, and all the secret schools and yogas embedded in each religion are about that, however this superficial excercise is a poor thing to be selling to the children.
No separation!
make love not war.
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~~~~~
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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No I don't agree with what he is presenting as fact. The mind may be split against itself but mind=spirit IMO. The mind can be crazy or healthy depending on early childhood development and programming. This is were the trouble begins. So, your mind is under your control to a great extent if you take the time and energy to learn how it works and be the programmer as much as possible. Results may vary individual to individual and due to many factors including inherited and environmental as well as emotional.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Hubbub
Mongol of Moot Mute
Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 214
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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good versus evil is the heart versus the mind, but there shouldnt be a versus.
And this is on like 4 other forums... What the hell? I havent even read it because its probably some troll or some sort of spiritual spam.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: Hubbub]
#9877185 - 02/27/09 12:34 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hubbub said:
good versus evil is the heart versus the mind, but there shouldnt be a versus.
And this is on like 4 other forums... What the hell? I havent even read it because its probably some troll or some sort of spiritual spam.
You think good and evil really exist? Aren't they just illusions of the mind? Where do you draw the line where good ends and evil begins?
I think 'good and evil' are illusions. There are only people who know the truth, and people who do not. Of the people who do not, there are those that are seeking, and those that are not seeking.
This is on many more than 4 other forums. It's not trolling, or spiritual spam. I am actively participating in all of them. "The Present" really did something for me, and I want to share it with everyone I can reach. I happen to enjoy psychedelics, so I thought I would start with forums revolving around them.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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"There are only people who know the truth, and people who do not. Of the people who do not, there are those that are seeking, and those that are not seeking."
Do yourself a favor and repeat after me:
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9879124 - 02/27/09 04:29 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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"No I don't agree with what he is presenting as fact. The mind may be split against itself but mind=spirit IMO. The mind can be crazy or healthy depending on early childhood development and programming. This is were the trouble begins. So, your mind is under your control to a great extent if you take the time and energy to learn how it works and be the programmer as much as possible. Results may vary individual to individual and due to many factors including inherited and environmental as well as emotional. "
Why not take the extra step and say that what we call "controlling the mind" is equally as learned as the follies of those who do not control their mind. What I'm saying (not the whole story) is, "will" and "having a strong will" is causally determined as well.
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Hubbub
Mongol of Moot Mute
Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 214
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Quote:
Hubbub said:
good versus evil is the heart versus the mind, but there shouldnt be a versus.
And this is on like 4 other forums... What the hell? I havent even read it because its probably some troll or some sort of spiritual spam.
You think good and evil really exist? Aren't they just illusions of the mind? Where do you draw the line where good ends and evil begins?
I think 'good and evil' are illusions. There are only people who know the truth, and people who do not. Of the people who do not, there are those that are seeking, and those that are not seeking.
This is on many more than 4 other forums. It's not trolling, or spiritual spam. I am actively participating in all of them. "The Present" really did something for me, and I want to share it with everyone I can reach. I happen to enjoy psychedelics, so I thought I would start with forums revolving around them.
Okay, I misunderstood then.
And good and evil are illusions of the mind. They are products of seperation and polarity. The mind versus the heart, to me, creates good versus evil. It is the left and right sides of human consciousness. The logic that contradicts the instinct. The intelligence that questions emotion.
But you see there should not be a versus. The heart should assist the mind as the mind should assist the heart. I have thought about this for sometime and what "evil" actually is. To me, evil is seperation and yes, seperation is an illusion. The mind is what seperates reality from self. To me, good is love and compassion. The heart is the love we share with all life and it is through this experience where we will feel compassion.
So you see, good versus evil is the heart versus the mind, but there should not be a versus at all. It is through the harmonizing of these two sides of your consciousness that you will transcend the ideology of good and evil and enter a higher state of well being.
No bullshit man. I am not so dumb.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9883178 - 02/28/09 08:55 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
"No I don't agree with what he is presenting as fact. The mind may be split against itself but mind=spirit IMO. The mind can be crazy or healthy depending on early childhood development and programming. This is were the trouble begins. So, your mind is under your control to a great extent if you take the time and energy to learn how it works and be the programmer as much as possible. Results may vary individual to individual and due to many factors including inherited and environmental as well as emotional. "
Why not take the extra step and say that what we call "controlling the mind" is equally as learned as the follies of those who do not control their mind. What I'm saying (not the whole story) is, "will" and "having a strong will" is causally determined as well.
OK
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: Hubbub]
#9889056 - 03/01/09 08:34 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hubbub said:
Okay, I misunderstood then.
And good and evil are illusions of the mind. They are products of seperation and polarity. The mind versus the heart, to me, creates good versus evil. It is the left and right sides of human consciousness. The logic that contradicts the instinct. The intelligence that questions emotion.
But you see there should not be a versus. The heart should assist the mind as the mind should assist the heart. I have thought about this for sometime and what "evil" actually is. To me, evil is seperation and yes, seperation is an illusion. The mind is what seperates reality from self. To me, good is love and compassion. The heart is the love we share with all life and it is through this experience where we will feel compassion.
So you see, good versus evil is the heart versus the mind, but there should not be a versus at all. It is through the harmonizing of these two sides of your consciousness that you will transcend the ideology of good and evil and enter a higher state of well being.
No bullshit man. I am not so dumb.
I never said you are dumb.
I see what you are saying, and I agree with you. We use different words for the 'two sides,' (i use body and spirit, because mind is of the body). There should be no separation, but one must realize there is a gap to be able to center themselves. Like you said, the mind is what separates reality from spirit; the mind blocks out true life.
These two sides must act in harmony for you to be centered. Once they do, you do enter a higher state of well being, because you see whole life. Everything is balanced, so you see the extremes as part of the whole instead of 'good and evil.' Evil is separation from reality; hiding behind illusions of the mind. Evil spelled backwards is live, and true life is life without the mind blocking the way. As I have been saying, we must see the mind as a tool and not our 'overlord' to have the two sides act in harmony. As of now, wouldn't you agree that the mind has control over the world?
I'd say for the majority of mankind, that is true. People need to start realizing the true nature of the mind for harmony to prosper. When this happens, instead of the mind blocking life from the spirit, the spirit will be in front of the mind; the mind will be like a companion that you can call whenever you need it. The spirit will act as a mirror, reflecting life/love to all beings of life. The spirit will reflect the life/love that is always in the present moment; a love that is always new and undying.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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mind is on body
spirit is on mind
no mind
no spirit
no body
no mind
spirit - after all - is the very real thing transferred and shared between minds and between mind moments (of a single person's mind).
it is like a shimmering shadow of mind passed this way.
anything can be invested with spirit.
this is done through mind.
all our books are like this, spirited investments, mind shadows.
higher than most of the lofty reaches of beasts, books are full of spirit, even when wrongly composed, the book is a great example of a spiritual work.
now the internet, this board, and this forum are new areas that the mind and spirit exchange takes place.
each posting is the spiritual residue of minds brushing by.
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~~~~~
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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That was some beautiful writing, redgreenvines, I enjoy your 'mysterious' logic. You should consider writing an entry for the truth contest.
Quote:
now the internet, this board, and this forum are new areas that the mind and spirit exchange takes place.
each posting is the spiritual residue of minds brushing by.
The internet is a wonderful thing. I think it was ultimately created for this purpose; to spread and better define the ultimate truth. The internet is a great way to reach many people in a short amount of time. It is also an easy way to draw great minds and true seekers to this 'spiritual residue of minds brushing by.' A common understanding of the truth will be available if enough people become interested in the contest.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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your contest is in error - same error as separation;
all are the same winner here.
all are the judge.
maybe in Arkansas?
but thanks
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~~~~~
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
your contest is in error - same error as separation;
all are the same winner here.
all are the judge.
maybe in Arkansas?
but thanks
How is the contest the same error as separation?
I feel the goal of the contest is a common understanding for all. Not separation, but unity.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
I feel the goal of the contest is a common understanding for all. Not separation, but unity.
The term 'contest' implies that there are winners and losers. I like the idea of multiple spiritual truths being presented, but the forum provided for discussion should be more along the lines of a cooperative unity than any sort of competition.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: deCypher]
#9890960 - 03/01/09 02:05 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
The term 'contest' implies that there are winners and losers. I like the idea of multiple spiritual truths being presented, but the forum provided for discussion should be more along the lines of a cooperative unity than any sort of competition.
I understand your word connotation, but this 'contest' is more like a group effort, the group being everyone. The website is a good way to gather presentations of multiple spiritual perspectives in the form of entries to the contest. We are all interpreting the same ultimate truth; "it is" the same for all beings of life. The ultimate goal is unity through cooperation, not competition. There are no winners/losers in this 'contest,' just seekers.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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ah, the pied piper!
well did you get the rats first?
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~~~~~
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quotes relevant to the "contest."
Page 53 of The Present:
"Almost everything you are reading now came out of the air as inspiration. My inspirations come as revelations of the truth. The things I got from other people are just to support the new revelations in this book.
By definition, any truly new truth has to come from outside yourself and the rest of the world to be really new. If something is known or exists, it is not new."
Page 262-263 of The Present:
"I received the revelations in this book one or two sentences at a time or one idea at a time. One thing would just lead to another and it just built into this book. Most of the time I will get just a little change to something I have already written. I would just write the ideas I received on a note pad until I got a few pages and then I would turn on my laptop and add them to this book.
The next best things to knowing the ultimate truth, is seeking it.
Writing a book keeps you seeking and organized in your search. It leads directly to God/life. Doing it on a computer makes it easy. It would have been difficult in the past, but now you can delete and add stuff easy and you can watch TV while you do it. When it gets complete enough just send it to the contest and the judges will help you refine it.
Judges: Everyone that makes an entry becomes a judge, so by competing with the other entries, the entries keep getting better. I think someone is going to say what I say in this book a lot better than I do. I am not a writer and just wrote this to get the ball rolling. I expect this first try at it, just to inspire other people that will do it better, maybe you will.
I never wrote anything before and never will again, I had to write this book.
I never wanted to write this book. Writing is not easy for a dyslexic person. I was waiting for someone else to do it, but I started to think, maybe no one would and we are running out of time, so I had too just in case no one else was going too. If you think I am wrong, tell us what is right. This is a contest and you or anyone else can enter."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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49colors
strangerthanyou
Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 145
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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The present is about right now
and right now is the moment that just created history independent of the future : )
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:My trade list:
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Quotes relevant to the "contest."
Page 53 of The Present:
"Almost everything you are reading now came out of the air as inspiration. My inspirations come as revelations of the truth. The things I got from other people are just to support the new revelations in this book.
By definition, any truly new truth has to come from outside yourself and the rest of the world to be really new. If something is known or exists, it is not new."
Page 262-263 of The Present:
"I received the revelations in this book one or two sentences at a time or one idea at a time. One thing would just lead to another and it just built into this book. Most of the time I will get just a little change to something I have already written. I would just write the ideas I received on a note pad until I got a few pages and then I would turn on my laptop and add them to this book.
The next best things to knowing the ultimate truth, is seeking it.
Writing a book keeps you seeking and organized in your search. It leads directly to God/life. Doing it on a computer makes it easy. It would have been difficult in the past, but now you can delete and add stuff easy and you can watch TV while you do it. When it gets complete enough just send it to the contest and the judges will help you refine it.
Judges: Everyone that makes an entry becomes a judge, so by competing with the other entries, the entries keep getting better. I think someone is going to say what I say in this book a lot better than I do. I am not a writer and just wrote this to get the ball rolling. I expect this first try at it, just to inspire other people that will do it better, maybe you will.
I never wrote anything before and never will again, I had to write this book.
I never wanted to write this book. Writing is not easy for a dyslexic person. I was waiting for someone else to do it, but I started to think, maybe no one would and we are running out of time, so I had too just in case no one else was going too. If you think I am wrong, tell us what is right. This is a contest and you or anyone else can enter."
I just had a revelation about his guy.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I just had a revelation about his guy.
Please, share your revelation!
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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He's just spewing out his subjective musings and most likely charging good money for it.
Like most gurus, he thinks he understands it all. Revelations = this sure feels good.
Now this revelation just came to me. I'm not responsible for it's content. So don't blame me if you don't like it.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
He's just spewing out his subjective musings and most likely charging good money for it.
Like most gurus, he thinks he understands it all. Revelations = this sure feels good.
Now this revelation just came to me. I'm not responsible for it's content. So don't blame me if you don't like it.
I see where you are coming from. I felt the same way about the author until I studied the ideas in the book for myself. All the book asks is for you to be honest with yourself and to check the ideas for yourself. Don't just trust the author. He is not charging money; the contest is free and for everyone to participate in. He does not think he understands it all; if you read the book, he doesn't even believe he wrote it, but that the words just passed through him as inspiration. It's okay if you don't like the content; I can't make you like it. If you think these ideas can be expressed in a better way, please submit your own entry to the contest.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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the jesuits need people like this
or used to when conversion was an industry
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~~~~~
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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if you read the book, he doesn't even believe he wrote it, but that the words just passed through him as inspiration.
That's just scary. Now I can't be sure but IMO this kind of statement smacks of mysticism and magic.
He wrote the book and his ego is invested in it. Now this is how I believe we all work and it's human nature. Please don't think this is the first time I've been here. If I paid attention to everyone who writes books and claims inspiration then I wouldn't have time to eat and exercise. So I look for little things like that above statement as warnings to look elsewhere. Now that's not a perfect system but this isn't a perfect world. I weed out a ton of crap this way and may miss a gem here and there. However there was a time were I read through all of this stuff based on anyone's recommendation and that's why and how I developed my current system of separating wheat from chaff.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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I submitted my one page entry and it was never put up.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9909155 - 03/04/09 08:05 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
I submitted my one page entry and it was never put up.
Interesting, I'm curious to see what you wrote. Remember, the contest is looking for the most complete, understandable explanation. "Ideologies are judged using the evidence, critical reason, logic and scientific methods."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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The Truth Contest.
This contest is looking for the most complete, understandable explanation of the ultimate truth. "Ideologies are judged using the evidence, critical reason, logic and scientific methods." If the masses cannot get it we are lost, because they are the human race. To fundamentally change mankind, the truth has to be presented in a way where most people can understand it. The truth is the only path to unity.
What I'm saying is that the closer the interpretation is to our present level of awareness, the more people will understand it. That is what the truth contest is for; a common, 'new' understanding of the ultimate truth that the majority cannot yet grasp. "The Present" may or may not suffice; I personally think it does, and that is why I provided the link. Regardless, more entries will be submitted and ultimately confined into one entry that is the most understandable, and the most complete. It will be written by everyone, and no-one, just as the collective unconscious/universal mind/Holy Spirit is everyone and no-one.
The truth leads to unity, and a group/team effort is needed to raise awareness to find truth seekers who can help refine the ultimate truth to be understood by as many who are ready to know and live in it. We are all one team in this 'contest': the human race. There are no winners or losers, just seekers.
The Vedas in the Hindu religion say it very clearly, they sum the truth up as, "it is" which is very to the point and very clear and accurate, but they screw it up with all the other things that go along with that religion, so they are also a force against the truth when you think about the situation in the present, the only moment that ever is.
The truth can only be found in the present, the only moment that ever is. Once the truth becomes clear in the present, it becomes clear in all past philosophical/religious works/ideas. The truth leads and unity follows. After all, separation is just an illusion of the mind.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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Assumption: Soul is experience.
Assumption: Nothing can come from nothing.
Assumption: Everything is a series of events.
Assumption: The universe must act in such a way that it is constantly in a process of creating and then destroying itself.
Assumption: Events without preconditions are random.
Assumption: Nothing is random.
Assumption: If something appears random, it is because its preconditions are hidden from perception.
Assumption: The “particles” of the universe have properties which determine how they behave.
Assumption: All of the particles and their properties are the same with each cycle of creation and destruction because there is no influence on them which could alter the sequence of events within the system. Any event that would do so would be a random one.
Assumption: Systems including or included by our universe allow follow the previous assumptions.
The previous assumptions resolve a number of problems that a nondeterministic argument cannot resolve. For one, Zeno’s arrow paradox is resolved because motion is an illusion. Calculus is right because the sum of an infinite series is still finite, or in other words, all. Heraclites is right because the universe is nothing but change, but Parmenides is right because the universe is one cycle. Hume’s problem of induction is avoided because none of these assumptions suppose anything about actual causes of events, only that there is a repeating sequence of events. Positivists are right because this argument supposes that there is a complete truth in the universe, but to human perspective it may be impossible to know, so all true knowledge is scientific. Relativists are right too because we can’t know the whole truth, we can only put it into the best words possible.
There are some difficult things that come from this that many people would find hard to accept. Free will is an illusion. Life is only an arrangement of “particles” that exist in such a way that they are self sustaining forms within the system. There is no creator god. When we die, we are born again as the same person because the universe recreates itself in the same exact way. The only heaven is a good life.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9913175 - 03/04/09 08:01 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
Assumption: Nothing is random.
Assumption: If something appears random, it is because its preconditions are hidden from perception.
The probabilistic nature of the Universe at the quantum level and Bell's theorem showing the non-existence of hidden variables seems to dispute this.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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Re: The Present [Re: deCypher]
#9913646 - 03/04/09 09:01 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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O Rly?
Theorems should never be considered fact, and without facts you do not have a counterexample.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9921644 - 03/06/09 07:34 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
When we die, we are born again as the same person because the universe recreates itself in the same exact way.
What do you mean by this? Are you saying the universe resets at one's physical death so that they can be born into the same exact body? I don't understand, wouldn't the universe be constantly resetting? Lots of people die every minute.
Was that post your one page entry for the truth contest?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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"What do you mean by this? Are you saying the universe resets at one's physical death so that they can be born into the same exact body? I don't understand, wouldn't the universe be constantly resetting? Lots of people die every minute."
I mean that we live the same exact life over and over again because there is nothing to alter the "sequence of events" that make up the universe such that it would be different the second time around. It doesn't reset on each death, it just goes like this:
Big bang ..... You....You die....Big Collapse... Big bang...You...You die... ect.
"Was that post your one page entry for the truth contest? "
Yep
Edited by xFrockx (03/06/09 06:23 PM)
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9929594 - 03/07/09 04:35 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I mean that we live the same exact life over and over again because there is nothing to alter the "sequence of events" that make up the universe such that it would be different the second time around.
The second time around? What makes you think there is a second time around? I see the universe as a continuing, infinite cycle, beyond the comprehension of our minds, because it has no beginning and no end. Life/consciousness moves on to another physical body after death to continue on. This movement is a transition period that cannot be measured or perceived because the mind dies at physical death. Death isn't the end, it's just part of the cycle. This is all speculation, of course, but I think it makes sense when considering a perfectly balanced Nature.
Interesting entry, but it doesn't really provide much that everyone can relate to and check for themselves. It seems like more of a thought tangent.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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"Interesting entry, but it doesn't really provide much that everyone can relate to and check for themselves. It seems like more of a thought tangent. "
The problem with your idea is that it assumes more than what is already here. My idea only assumes that what happens happens again. Occam would prefer no repetition, no reincarnation, and no supernatural "mind," but that doesn't leave one with anything after death. My view assumes fewer novel phenomena than yours, so its more true if you accept Occam's razor as a valid concept.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9990953 - 03/17/09 06:12 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Page 2 of The Present
Quote:
You are immortal, because it is impossible for you not to be. You cannot be aware of any gaps in life; it is continuous and never ending from your own point of view. Have you ever experienced anything other than life? You haven’t, because you cannot experience anything else; anything you experience is life.
Energy cannot be created nor destroyed and consciousness cannot be created nor destroyed for the same reason. It changes form. You cannot make nothing out of something, and if you are conscious of life now, you are something.
The deductive logic above reveals that we are not our bodies. We know our physical bodies die and we know consciousness cannot, thus our consciousness (what we are) cannot be our bodies.
You will die physically, but you will be born again; being born happens or you would not be here now. You were born into this life. It is what we know happens for certain to everyone living. There is no evidence anything else happens.
Why would we think anything else happens or even can happen? We are dealing with time and space that never ends; if we were born once, it is certain it will happen again. The only question is, where, when and what you will be reborn as, and we can know that too.
Does this make sense to you? Are we immortal spirit/consciousness? Do all reasoning human beings have the potential to realize and understand such an assertion should it be true?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,200
Last seen: 5 minutes, 2 seconds
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It depends on what you mean by "you".
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: Rahz]
#9991118 - 03/17/09 06:40 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
It depends on what you mean by "you".
What makes sense in mind, perspective, thought.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,200
Last seen: 5 minutes, 2 seconds
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Ego or soul? Selfishness or consciousness?
Both have their place.
Two worlds it seems to me.
Deny one to get the other? Or do you have something else in mind?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: Rahz]
#9996800 - 03/18/09 05:18 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Deny one to get the other? Or do you have something else in mind?
I see ego and soul as extremes of consciousness, essentially one in the same.
Don't deny either, make them work together.
"You" are immortal consciousness/spirit, and the mind is used to create an image of "you," the notion of self, and the illusion of separation in your perceived reality.
If we are immortal consciousness and our minds are a part of our body (brain) that die at physical death, how can we be our minds?
The mind must act as a companion of the spirit, rather than the overlord.
Mind must know the nature of the ego and the soul for this to happen.
Mind must seek the truth to realize for itself.
You have control of the mind.
Page 24 of "The Present"
"Mind-self: The mind is a great tool if we have it under control. The problem is, most don’t have the mind under control. The mind has been so useful to our survival that we have given it complete power over our lives.
We have begun to believe we are our minds. This falsehood puts our minds in control of us.
We cannot be our minds because our minds end at death and we do not. We cannot, because we are immortal and our minds, or brains, are not. Our mind is a biochemical and bioelectric part of our bodies. It exists in the brain and is destroyed when the rest of our body is destroyed in death, just as a computer’s data is destroyed when a computers hard drive is destroyed. Your mind can be destroyed even sooner than death by brain injuries and diseases, such as Alzheimer's, and other mental diseases.
We can be certain that we are not our minds, because if it was gone, we would still be here. We would still be aware of life; actually more aware of life, completely aware of it. The mind does not give us life, we give the mind life."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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JT, does this make sense to you?
"In the shuffling madess
Of the locomotive breath,
Runs the all-time loser,
Headlong to his death.
He feels the piston scraping --
Steam breaking on his brow --
Old charlie stole the handle and
The train wont stop going --
No way to slow down.
He sees his children jumping off
At the stations -- one by one.
His woman and his best friend --
In bed and having fun.
Hes crawling down the corridor
On his hands and knees --
Old charlie stole the handle and
The train wont stop going --
No way to slow down.
He hears the silence howling --
Catches angels as they fall.
And the all-time winner
Has got him by the balls.
He picks up gideons Bible --
Open at page one --
Old charlie stole the handle and
The train wont stop going --
No way to slow down."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9997823 - 03/18/09 08:13 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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What a great song. It's crazy how Anderson recorded most of the parts of it on his own, and compiled them. That flute solo gets my head spinning every time.
Yes, it makes sense to me. Are you asking for my interpretation of the lyrics?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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Yeah, I'm curious what you'll say.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#9998034 - 03/18/09 08:52 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Alright I'll give it a shot. I personally enjoy interpreting lyrics; especially with inspired bands like The Beatles and Jethro Tull (among many others).
all-time loser = man in a state of waking sleep, blind to the truth
all-time winner = God/Nature/life/love/now etc.
Quote:
In the shuffling madess
Of the locomotive breath,
Runs the all-time loser,
Headlong to his death.
He feels the piston scraping --
Steam breaking on his brow --
I think this song is about a man who is in a state of waking sleep, trapped in society (locomotive breath). He can't keep up with the world, and realizes he is going to die, so he panics.
Quote:
Old charlie stole the handle and
The train wont stop going --
No way to slow down.
Faith in a fantastical Heaven is all but gone because old Charlie (Charles Darwin and his theory of evolution) stole the handle using scientific evidence, and contradicted the beliefs of Christians who take the Bible literally.
Quote:
He sees his children jumping off
At the stations -- one by one.
His woman and his best friend --
In bed and having fun.
Hes crawling down the corridor
On his hands and knees --
He sees his "children jumping off" the ways of the old tradition and belief in fantastical myths. This reflects the time period the song was written, when the youth began to realize how ridiculous society was, and began think for themselves (LSD helped this process). People jump off at the stations as to drop out of society by understanding the evolution of life. This man now has to make a choice: Believe in a fantastical Heaven (delude himself to block out the fear of death), or go with Darwinism/evolution (a proven fact beyond a reasonable doubt, where all the evidence points).
Quote:
He hears the silence howling --
Catches angels as they fall.
And the all-time winner
Has got him by the balls.
He picks up gideons Bible --
Open at page one --
The silence (truth) howls, and takes those who are ready to embrace the truth instead of living in the illusions of the mind, such as fear of death. God/Nature/Life/Now has got him by the balls, because Now is the only moment one can experience. By understanding the process of the continuing evolution of life, or a "train that can't be stopped," this man can deal with his fear of death, be honest with himself, and face the end of his life. He obviously wants to believe in a fantastical Heaven, because it blocks out the inevitability of death, and it is ingrained in the norm of society. However, the evidence is staring him straight in the face. He picks up gideons Bible, hoping that he will find something in there that will offer concrete proof of his fantastical beliefs. In the end, he is fooling himself. He has a great fear of death, but he knows that he can no longer believe in a fantastical Heaven.
The last chorus is:
Quote:
Thank God, he stole the handle
The train wont stop going --
No way to slow down.
Thank God that old Charlie came along and gave you the evidence to check for yourself, rather than a fantastical mythical Heaven that is impossible to check for yourself and doesn't exist.
Heaven is right where you are, right now. The man in this song doesn't realize it, and crawls around helplessly in the shuffling madness of society, or Locomotive Breath.
What is your interpretation of these lyrics?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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spyder
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 444
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Do "cross eyed mary" next.
Who would be a poor man, a beggarman, a thief --
If he had a rich man in his hand.
And who would steal the candy
From a laughing babys mouth
If he could take it from the money man.
Cross-eyed mary goes jumping in again.
She signs no contract
But she always plays the game.
Dines in hampstead village
On expense accounted gruel,
And the jack-knife barber drops her off at school.
Laughing in the playground -- gets no kicks from little boys:
Would rather make it with a letching grey.
Or maybe her attention is drawn by aqualung,
Who watches through the railings as they play.
Cross-eyed mary finds it hard to get along.
Shes a poor mans rich girl
And shell do it for a song.
Shes a rich man stealer
But her favours good and strong:
Shes the robin hood of highgate --
Helps the poor man get along.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: spyder]
#9998127 - 03/18/09 09:06 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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You forgot to insert a quarter in the interpretation jukebox.
I do feel that most Jethro Tull songs had quite a bit of inspiration/intuitive meaning in them, but I really don't want to pick apart all the lyrics.
Let's just say sexual references and sexual innuendos were a hot topic in the lyrical aspect of music by Jethro Tull. 
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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spyder
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 444
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,200
Last seen: 5 minutes, 2 seconds
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Re: The Present [Re: spyder]
#9998708 - 03/18/09 11:00 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
If we are immortal consciousness and our minds are a part of our body (brain) that die at physical death, how can we be our minds?
I didn't say we were, but that doesn't mean I agree with your eternal theory.
I have no idea what happens after the body drops. Reading a book with some interesting philosophy isn't going to convince me that I believe I do know. The body/mind is the whole backdrop against which consciousness plays out.
I agree, there is no need to believe we are our minds, for the same reason I think there is no need to believe we are eternal. Tell me, what's it like not having a body or mind?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: Rahz]
#10000964 - 03/19/09 11:57 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
I agree, there is no need to believe we are our minds, for the same reason I think there is no need to believe we are eternal. Tell me, what's it like not having a body or mind?
I have no idea what happens after I die, or what it is like to be without a body and mind. I have an idea what it may be like, for I have experienced a state of "nothingness" during Salvia trips and meditation, and a near-death experience during a dxm/lsd experiment where my senses all molded into one. I just became a part of the universe during these experiences, and there was no self. However, I always came back to my normal state of consciousness. From my perspective, I have always had a body and mind, because it is impossible to be conscious of being unconscious.
We are reborn every second. Cells die, and new ones are formed.
We are eternally reborn in this (proven) sense.
Everything in the universe is recycled. Can you give me an example of something that is not recycled?
Consciousness is also recycled. Just as matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, neither can consciousness, it just changes form.
This is all extrapolation of course. With this extrapolation, and knowing that we are not our minds, I think that consciousness is eternal and immortal.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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So you agree that there is no need to believe we are our minds. What are we then? I'd say we are conscious existence, a part of the universe, experiencing the universe. The body/mind are just tools that harbor our consciousness and allow us to experience and manipulate the universe.
What is consciousness? I equate consciousness is nothing, or the absence of things. I understand "nothing" is quite a concept, but I understand how it works even though it is impossible to wrap the mind around. This excerpt from The Present really makes sense to me, does it make sense to you?
Page 224
"The nature of nothing: If you take away everything that is physical (matter/energy) your left with nothing (no thing). Nothing is completely empty space, absolute cold, silence and darkness. “Nothing” is infinite, eternal and indestructible, it does not move; it does not have to, it is already everywhere. The universe is more than 99.9999999% empty space. Even our own bodies are mostly empty space. All physical things are because atoms are mostly empty space. There is a small amount of energy like light and radio waves passing through the entire universe, but it is essentially an infinite void, with a little matter and energy.
True perspective: The way our solar system is shown in books does not give you a true perspective of it. It shows the sun and the other planets orbiting it in rings that are not to scale. They could not get it in a book if it was to scale. The actual scale is more like this; if the sun was the size of a basketball the earth would be smaller than a grain of sand and it would be thousands of feet away from it. Pluto, the outer most planet in our system would be a grain of sand over a mile away. The next star outside our solar system would be thousands of miles away. It takes light that travels about one hundred and eighty six thousand miles a second, about eight minutes to go from the sun to our planet. It will go around the earth seven times in one second, but it takes four years to get to the next star outside our solar system. Two hundred and fifty millions years to get to the next galaxy. This gives you a more true idea of how much empty space there is in our universe. Most of everything is nothing.
What is faster, the speed of light or the speed of dark? Turnoff the light and try to get into bed, before it gets dark. I am just kidding, but I am trying to make a point. You cannot turnoff “nothing” or do anything to it, it always stays the same, is always everywhere all the time. If God is everywhere, infinite, omnipresent and eternal as the Bible states and the evidence dictates, God has to be like nothing.
Nothing is really something.
Einstein's general relativity equations, show that space bends and proves that nothing is really something with substance. Supposedly empty space is shaped and it is the shape of space that creates the gravity that controls and creates the whole universe. It holds the planets in orbit, makes the sun and other stars burn, bends light and keeps us from falling off the earth and it is empty space, nothing.
Value of general relativity: I always wondered what the practical benefit of general relativity was and now I know. It proves that nothing is something and in fact is God and controls and creates the whole universe.
Nothing causes everything to happen.
Our spirit is also like nothing. It is the so-called empty space between everything, the majority of everything is nothing and it connects everything, everywhere.
Our essential immortal self or soul is like the blank sheet that physical life is written on, the darkness that gives light a place to shine, the silence that gives sound a place to be heard. An infinite stadium that the game of life is played in. Nothing is more than something. It is the complete opposite of what people think. It is impossible to get your mind around, all you can do is know it is true and be it.
There are some things that are beyond the mind, literally. You can only know them or in this case be them, when the mind is turned off completely."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
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Loc: underbelly
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I have doubts about consciousness being more than an emergent quality of our personal evolution.
Wouldn't it be interesting if it was a unimportant adaptation that will not insure long term survival.
Of course I admit to the possibility of a conscious universe but am waiting for some evidence before I take it past the possibility stage and make a belief out of it. And yes I've had all the cosmic trips and feelings of oneness and all that. I just don't know if it means much more than some quirk of my big brain and how it functions.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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btw, way to keep a thread going.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,389
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Quote:
I just don't know if it means much more than some quirk of my big brain and how it functions.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I have doubts about consciousness being more than an emergent quality of our personal evolution.
Wouldn't it be interesting if it was a unimportant adaptation that will not insure long term survival.
Of course I admit to the possibility of a conscious universe but am waiting for some evidence before I take it past the possibility stage and make a belief out of it. And yes I've had all the cosmic trips and feelings of oneness and all that. I just don't know if it means much more than some quirk of my big brain and how it functions.
Rarely have I seen a more salient case of being open to possibilities. Beats the hell out of thinking you know everything.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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I only know (suspect) who doesn't know. I have no idea who knows.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I only know (suspect) who doesn't know. I have no idea who knows.
I'm a sucker for honesty. If you were a girl I'd be swooning.
That's a hell of a lot better than  IMO
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Rarely have I seen a more salient case of being open to possibilities. Beats the hell out of thinking you know everything.
It's impossible to know everything. It is possible to understand the big picture and everything experienced when the truth becomes self-evident. I'm just trying to provide my perspective to see if anyone can draw connections with theirs. I am also seeking other perspectives, so that I can compare them to mine. Being open to possibilities and giving your own perspective go hand in hand. Giving = receiving.
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Icelander said:
I have doubts about consciousness being more than an emergent quality of our personal evolution.
I appreciate your honest input, but can you clarify this statement please? This sounds interesting, but I'm not sure what you mean by it.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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I appreciate your honest input, but can you clarify this statement please? This sounds interesting, but I'm not sure what you mean by it.
Our so called conscious awareness (of ourselves) may be just a by product of the newest parts of our brain and it's function. In other words it has no particular special purpose but is still there because it also does not inhibit our survival and so not eliminated by natural selection.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Rarely have I seen a more salient case of being open to possibilities. Beats the hell out of thinking you know everything.
It's impossible to know everything. It is possible to understand the big picture and everything experienced when the truth becomes self-evident. I'm just trying to provide my perspective to see if anyone can draw connections with theirs. I am also seeking other perspectives, so that I can compare them to mine. Being open to possibilities and giving your own perspective go hand in hand. Giving = receiving.
I'm referring to people that come off as experts in every topic. That wouldn't be your posts as far as I can tell. However, few things are self-evident or axiomatically true.
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Icelander
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To: Jethro Tull
It is possible to understand the big picture and everything experienced when the truth becomes self-evident.
I just can't get my head around how you could know what is "self evident". We are not the creators of our brain or consciousness and IMO can't know if the information we get has been correctly interpreted by the personality structure with all it's personal needs and desires and psychological functions and dysfunctions.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (03/19/09 01:42 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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it is the anaesthetic effect
at a certain degree, one becomes comfortable with what they know:
one stops hearing or stops paying attention to the wind howling through the huge gaps of "truth" or wisdom rather,
which is probably what's missing in this whole discussion.
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~~~~~
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I just can't get my head around how you could know what is "self evident".
The truth is self-evident, because it is the same for everyone in the universe. We are all trying to interpret "that which is." There are different paths to the truth; as many paths as unique perspectives, but there cannot be more than one ultimate truth.
Quote:
Icelander said:We are not the creators of our brain or consciousness and IMO can't know if the information we get has been correctly interpreted by the personality structure with all it's personal needs and desires and psychological functions and dysfunctions.
We are not the creators of anything except for our illusions of reality. Our bodies and the recycling of consciousness (us) is given by Nature/God. You are right that we cannot know if the information we get has been correctly interpreted, but we can share our perspectives to see if there are any similarities. By doing this, hopefully we can come to an agreement on an understandable explanation of "that which is." This forum, your buddy Robert Anton Wilson, and http://www.thetruthcontest.com are open to all explanations/perspectives.
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redgreenvines said:
it is the anaesthetic effect
at a certain degree, one becomes comfortable with what they know:
one stops hearing or stops paying attention to the wind howling through the huge gaps of "truth" or wisdom rather,
which is probably what's missing in this whole discussion.
what do you mean by the anaesthetic effect?
at a certain degree, one finds peace of mind in what they know
one sees the mind's illusions for what they are, and stops paying attention to them/giving the mind life
one opens up completely to "that which is," or life in the now, life/love/now is always given to you by Nature/God
the void of consciousness is no longer filled by the mind's input and illusions, it is filled with life.
life = love = God, you become life/love/God by ditching your ego, thoughts, and feelings. (of course thoughts/feelings are still necessary, but not even close to all the time)
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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yes exactly
that is at the point of intoxication.
you "feel" like things are true or smart or right
and so you defer to others or to some book or to anything
just don't question,
'cause that would take you "outta the ZONE".
zoning out on fake truth
like truth is the drug
con\me and get it.
i meant "come and get it" but I like the way the key's slipped.
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~~~~~
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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I don't follow your thought.
Are you saying that I shouldn't share my perspective and compare it to other perspectives?
I completely disagree; it is the most righteous thing I can think of.
Learning from others, reading books, and questioning/comparing perspectives to mine help keep me on the path of eternal truth seeking.
Whenever I am not on these forums, or using my mind for the job at hand, I just turn off the thoughts and open up to the now, the present, the "zone." It comes with practice, and I can attest to the notion that it gets better everyday.
I am "defering" to others to continue on my path of wisdom.
I am "defering" to The Present because it ripped my "dharma-eye" wide open.
All I want to do is help people by showing the way, so that they can seek the truth for themselves, and hopefully one day, the truth will become self-evident to them, and they can be fulfilled by every aspect of life and live in a state of bliss as I do. If I can open even one "dharma-eye" in my life, I'd consider the effort a success.
Your second paragraph makes no sense to me, sorry.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
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Quote:
Your second paragraph makes no sense to me, sorry.
That's because RGV is our only true resident Zen mystic. You will hear more about him IRL as soon as they let him out.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
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To me, spirit is the current kinetic energy in the emotional system. Chi, prana, etc. Just like thoughts, one moment fades to make room for another. Just like thoughts, the spirit quits functioning with the body... though it could be said that spirit lives on in others.
Whereas spirit rises and falls, has positive and negative states, the soul is the rock, the unchanging core. No matter the mood or health, a persons soul is always the same. It's that underlying stillness which seems to be the anchor or fulcrum of the spirit. Soul is the I AMness. And to make it mystical, or at least more interesting, it seems that the soul is the intuitive aspect of a person.
But logically the soul, like the mind and spirit, ceases along with the body. The point is, at a state of complete rest, with no thought or emotion, the equipment is still "on". You cannot say you know anything about not having a body. From your way of thinking, other people, animals, grass, the air, and stars are all you. I like that realization, but in another sense, just as valid, the whole point of I/we/you/they is an indicator of separation.
I have no experience without body and mind. Because of this I can only speculate about what happens when I no longer have that. I will never know what it's like to be dead (non-existence), as you have said. Therefore, death as an experience, is just as much a dream as life is. It is for this reason that it is possible to face (the fears of) death. You can have a belief that you will not die, but beliefs are inconsequential to a thoughtful mind. To me, when someone's main message is that "I" won't die, I kinda feel that they are at least attempting to avoid some part of their emotional potential. Fear of death can cause people to act irrationally, but it can also be transmuted into love.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
I just can't get my head around how you could know what is "self evident".
The truth is self-evident, because it is the same for everyone in the universe. We are all trying to interpret "that which is." There are different paths to the truth; as many paths as unique perspectives, but there cannot be more than one ultimate truth.
Quote:
Icelander said:We are not the creators of our brain or consciousness and IMO can't know if the information we get has been correctly interpreted by the personality structure with all it's personal needs and desires and psychological functions and dysfunctions.
We are not the creators of anything except for our illusions of reality. Our bodies and the recycling of consciousness (us) is given by Nature/God. You are right that we cannot know if the information we get has been correctly interpreted, but we can share our perspectives to see if there are any similarities. By doing this, hopefully we can come to an agreement on an understandable explanation of "that which is." This forum, your buddy Robert Anton Wilson, and http://www.thetruthcontest.com are open to all explanations/perspectives.
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
it is the anaesthetic effect
at a certain degree, one becomes comfortable with what they know:
one stops hearing or stops paying attention to the wind howling through the huge gaps of "truth" or wisdom rather,
which is probably what's missing in this whole discussion.
what do you mean by the anaesthetic effect?
at a certain degree, one finds peace of mind in what they know
one sees the mind's illusions for what they are, and stops paying attention to them/giving the mind life
one opens up completely to "that which is," or life in the now, life/love/now is always given to you by Nature/God
the void of consciousness is no longer filled by the mind's input and illusions, it is filled with life.
life = love = God, you become life/love/God by ditching your ego, thoughts, and feelings. (of course thoughts/feelings are still necessary, but not even close to all the time)
The truth is self-evident, because it is the same for everyone in the universe.
This is exactly why I don't have any faith in your posts here. You avoid answering direct questions by going back to your same unsubstantiated original statement and pretend that is an answer.
How do you know the truth is the same for everyone in the Universe or if the human mind can know that kind of "truth"? How do you know your limited brain capacity and emotional needs do not misinterpret the "truth".
You constantly make definitive statements without giving any evidence to back your beliefs. IMO your kind of posting makes this forum a joke.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: Rahz]
#10009107 - 03/20/09 03:47 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
To me, spirit is the current kinetic energy in the emotional system. Chi, prana, etc. Just like thoughts, one moment fades to make room for another. Just like thoughts, the spirit quits functioning with the body... though it could be said that spirit lives on in others.
Interesting. I have come by the thought a few times that everything is inhabited by your definition of 'spirit,' or kinetic energy. For example, when I inhale smoke, I think the 'spirit' of the plant is inhabiting my body. Your last thought makes a lot of sense to me; during a particular trip, that exact notion came into my head. Spirit lives on through other minds.
Quote:
Whereas spirit rises and falls, has positive and negative states, the soul is the rock, the unchanging core. No matter the mood or health, a persons soul is always the same. It's that underlying stillness which seems to be the anchor or fulcrum of the spirit. Soul is the I AMness. And to make it mystical, or at least more interesting, it seems that the soul is the intuitive aspect of a person.
It seems as though you are separating spirit from soul, making 'spirit' sound like states of mind. Maybe spirit and mind are the two sides of consciousness? Based on what you have said, I think the "underlying stillness" is consciousness, or soul. It is the blank slate in which physical life is written on. I also think there is a collective soul/consciousness that brings intuition and curiosity to the person, when one sees beyond their mind.
Quote:
But logically the soul, like the mind and spirit, ceases along with the body. The point is, at a state of complete rest, with no thought or emotion, the equipment is still "on". You cannot say you know anything about not having a body. From your way of thinking, other people, animals, grass, the air, and stars are all you. I like that realization, but in another sense, just as valid, the whole point of I/we/you/they is an indicator of separation.
Logically, you are correct. However, if the soul is the underlying stillness, the blank slate that physical life is written on, "nothing," how can it cease to exist? "Nothing" is immortal, and I think consciousness is best described by "nothing," or the absence of things. You are right, it is impossible to be conscious of being unconscious. Using deductive logic (impossible to be conscious of being unconscious), and the fact that the universe is perfectly balanced (universe is cyclical), I'd say that consciousness/soul does not cease along with the body, but that it changes form. I obviously cannot prove this, but it makes sense to me when considering the perfect balance of Nature. I can't help using indicators of separation in speech, my mind has been programmed for thousands of years with the illusion of separation.
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I have no experience without body and mind. Because of this I can only speculate about what happens when I no longer have that. I will never know what it's like to be dead (non-existence), as you have said. Therefore, death as an experience, is just as much a dream as life is. It is for this reason that it is possible to face (the fears of) death. You can have a belief that you will not die, but beliefs are inconsequential to a thoughtful mind. To me, when someone's main message is that "I" won't die, I kinda feel that they are at least attempting to avoid some part of their emotional potential. Fear of death can cause people to act irrationally, but it can also be transmuted into love.
It is impossible for us to know if anything can be experienced without body and mind. Of course, everything is speculation, as we are just parts of the universe experiencing the universe, trying to understand the universe. Fear of death is extremely important, as (speculation) humans are the only lifeforms on Earth that know they are going to die for sure. Death is just the balancing opposite of life, an important part of the cycle of consciousness. Fear of death is fear of life. Irrationality comes from this fear (an illusion of the mind) of an inevitable fate. By accepting death, one can truly live/love. Every morning, I think to myself "I could die today, everything I know could just cease to exist." It really helps me to enjoy every moment of life, regardless of what is happening.
Thanks Rahz, I enjoy reading your posts. Does what I am saying make sense to you? How do you think the fear of death can be transmuted into love?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
How do you know the truth is the same for everyone in the Universe or if the human mind can know that kind of "truth"? How do you know your limited brain capacity and emotional needs do not misinterpret the "truth".
How can it not be the same for everyone in the Universe? We are all born, and we all die; all part of the whole of the Universe. How can there be more than one ultimate, definitive truth? We are all trying to understand and experience "that which is." Of course, there are many ways to get to this ultimate truth, because everyone has a unique perspective based on their individual experiences. I don't know if the human mind can know the ultimate truth. I think it can, and an open exchange of perspectives on the topic seems to be a good way to draw similarities in our understanding of "that which is." As far as myself, I see the truth in everything, and I am certain that it is self-evident. I don't deny that my words could be perceived as misinterpretations. They make sense to me, but not all others. This is why I am attempting to put the truth (which is best described by silence) in words, so that I can try to compare to other perspectives, which will better my interpretation of the truth and presentation of my perspective.
Quote:
You constantly make definitive statements without giving any evidence to back your beliefs. IMO your kind of posting makes this forum a joke.
I know you think that "self-evident" is bullshit, but these definitive statements are completely true from my perspective, just as everything you say is true from your perspective. Everything is speculation/opinion/perspective. I don't see the need to use "IMO" all the time, because I know everything I say is from my unique perspective. Evidence is indeed essential to back up the truth, and there is a great deal of evidence you can check for yourself in "The Present." Debate is certainly welcomed, but don't you think it's time we came together and joined the same team? I mean, separation is just an illusion.
Thanks for keeping me in check Icelander. I'm sorry if I come off as some preaching d-bag who wants to be the teacher. I will forever be a student of the universe, and I am here to share and learn.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
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Quote:
How do you think the fear of death can be transmuted into love?
You already said it: By accepting (fears of) death, one can truly live/love.
Anyway, I think the spirit is an energetic phenomena made possible with the body. Spirit and mind, are one and the same, expressed through different means. If a person can see that their thoughts and moods are like twins, it is not so hard to see that each thought carries an emotion, and each emotion carries a thought (conscious or not). To me, my spirit is simply my emotional state, reflected in my mental state.
To me, the soul is what always exists as a constant during the bodys lifespan, even in (especially in) the absence of tension. So if we talk about living forever, this will invoke tension. Why? Because every thought can and will invoke it's opposite. Create a belief that "you" will live forever, and by default there is a voice which says "no, you won't". Is this believing one is the mind? I think so, yet any belief is by nature, of the mind.
So maybe we don't need to know. Trying to maintain a belief that I am eternal is just as cumbersome to me as believing I will die. But I feel the truth is closest to the heart. If someone asks me if I will die, maybe I say yes, maybe I say no. It just depends on how I feel at the moment. But if I am calm and in my heart, perhaps I will reply "does it matter?"
And I don't know anything for sure, speaking from the mind of course. So, I understand you... but it doesn't make sense. Perhaps I have more to learn.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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I don't know if the human mind can know the ultimate truth.
Then how can it be self-evident???????????
just as everything you say is true from your perspective.
How can this be true if I doubt my ability to know for sure what the truth is?
Debate is certainly welcomed, but don't you think it's time we came together and joined the same team? I mean, separation is just an illusion.
Depends on what you mean. If you want to come together in Icelander's army to drive the neo-cons, rednecks, and politicians and fundamentalist religious from this land by force then yes.
I want a little separation from them even if it is an illusion.
If illusion and separation had no value, I'm wondering why it's part of our universe and life experience.;)
It's not that I'm in total disagreement with your POV in theory. But I think the professed means of attainment are unrealistic and unworkable for many of the the same reasons christanity is unworkable. (wanting nothing to do with the experience of our darkest natures and yet acting it out and denying the fact)
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Then how can it be self-evident???????????
I don't think most minds can know the truth right now, because the human race is in a state of waking sleep. I do think the truth can become self-evident in the individual, but that the mind hides/blocks out truth with illusion. I was saying that I don't know if the collective human mind has the capability to know the truth, yet. Personally, I like to think that all individuals have the ability to realize the ultimate truth, but some people may be so far away that their mind has too much influence over them, and so maintaining an open-mind is near impossible. These are the people that would "violently oppose" something as simple as the ultimate truth, because of unbreakable paradigms.
Quote:
How can this be true if I doubt my ability to know for sure what the truth is?
Even if you doubt your ability to know what the truth is, you are still sharing your perspective, or what you believe to be true. If not, you are being dishonest with yourself.
Quote:
I want a little separation from them even if it is an illusion.
If illusion and separation had no value, I'm wondering why it's part of our universe and life experience.;)
Good point. Separation has been an integral part of our evolution throughout the past, bringing us to our current state of awareness. However, if we continue to act as a separated tribe, I think the destruction of the human race and planet Earth is imminent. This is all speculation of an uncertain future of course, but I think it's a reasonable thought, considering our destructive recent past.
Page 19 of The Present:
"About ten countries are known to have nuclear weapons and it is estimated that at least thirty-two countries are trying to get them. There are also biological and chemical weapons and people do not know right from wrong yet.
Weapon technology is evolving faster than we are. Technology is making it easier and easier for fewer and fewer people to do greater and greater damage. Very soon, one person with a biological weapon will be able to kill everyone."
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I think the professed means of attainment are unrealistic and unworkable for many of the the same reasons christanity is unworkable. (wanting nothing to do with the experience of our darkest natures and yet acting it out and denying the fact)
It is the opposite of what you say. It is accepting the experience of our darkest natures, realizing our true past, seeing our animal behavior for what it is the present moment, and changing ourselves accordingly to prevent our destruction and bring Heaven to Earth.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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Re: The Present [Re: Rahz]
#10014357 - 03/21/09 01:29 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't think most minds can know the truth right now,
But you of course are one who does know the truth. This is not unexpected.
But I feel the truth is closest to the heart.
Feelings are not the same as something being self-evident. Feelings such as you describe are imo wish fulfillment. The attempt at righting a feeling of imbalance and not connected to any cosmic truths.
We all have more to learn.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Rahz
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Quote:
But I feel the truth is closest to the heart.
Feelings are not the same as something being self-evident. Feelings such as you describe are imo wish fulfillment. The attempt at righting a feeling of imbalance and not connected to any cosmic truths.
That's what I was saying. I mean, what people really want is to not feel like they're going to die. But anytime a person thinks about living forever, they also think about death.
And therein lies a great scheme for mind control. Tell the people that some of them will live forever, and that some of them will die forever! And it all depends on how well you please us... I mean God.
If we're going to live forever, all this thought is worth what? And if we're going to die, all this thought is worth what? So, does it matter?
Love doesn't need tomorrow.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Icelander
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Re: The Present [Re: Rahz]
#10017029 - 03/21/09 09:25 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Love doesn't need tomorrow.
Very difficult for most of us humans.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Rahz
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Logically, unconditional love doesn't need tomorrow.
And that's the truth.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Icelander
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Re: The Present [Re: Rahz]
#10017186 - 03/21/09 10:00 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Logic rarely motivates human actions.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,389
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Which is why I do so well in poker. Most players lose, not because of lack of knowledge of odds or poor math skills, but because of lack of emotional control.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
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Lucky in poker, unlucky in love. Stick to your strong suit.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: Rahz]
#10018706 - 03/22/09 07:33 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
But you of course are one who does know the truth. This is not unexpected.
Yes; the truth of life is self-evident from my perspective. By continually doubting myself, it just became more evident until I completely understand the nature of existence, including the age old question, "Who are you?" I have no more doubts. This leads me to the conclusion that everyone has the capability to transcend the physical world and become centered as a spiritual being.
Quote:
We all have more to learn.
All knowing how life works does is free you to start knowing what life is. Most are worried with what life is.. yet they push themselves farther and farther away from this by forgetting to simply observe how life works.. which is right in front of them every second of every day. There is always more to learn, because we can never know "what it is." Life will always be mysterious, infinite, and full of questions. It's a never-ending learning experience that becomes a lot more fulfilling when you know "how it works" (truth).
Quote:
Rahz said:
Logically, unconditional love doesn't need tomorrow.
And that's the truth.
Life is unconditional love, because life is always in the present moment. Life/love is given to you every moment of your existence. Commit to this love, commit to the now, and you will be in an undying love affair with life itself.
Love is old, love is new. Love is all, love is you. Love never dies.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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Yes; the truth of life is self-evident from my perspective. By continually doubting myself, it just became more evident until I completely understand the nature of existence, including the age old question, "Who are you?" I have no more doubts. This leads me to the conclusion that everyone has the capability to transcend the physical world and become centered as a spiritual being.
You really seem to be impressed with yourself.
Christians also have no more doubts along with the Muslims.
Put this in your sig. "Reality scares me so I lie to myself"A gift from
stupidevilbastard.com
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
Icelander said:
You really seem to be impressed with yourself.
I am impressed with everything. I can learn from everything.
Quote:
Christians also have no more doubts along with the Muslims.
How do you know this?
Quote:
Put this in your sig. "Reality scares me so I lie to myself"A gift from
stupidevilbastard.com
I'm not lying to myself. There is no point in lying to myself. Everything I say is completely honest from my perspective. Why do you consistently try to derail my perspective, when you could be sharing your own? Like you said, we all have more to learn.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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How do you know this?
Cause they say so just like you do.
Everything I say is completely honest from my perspective.
Very Christian indeed.
when you could be sharing your own?
I am sharing my own.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Meh, what can I say? If you choose to compare me to these religious groups, then so be it. Understand that I do not affiliate myself with these groups, let alone any religious group. "Religion" from my perspective is whatever sets you free.
Quote:
Everything I say is completely honest from my perspective.
Very Christian indeed.
I don't think that most Christians are being honest with themselves. Those that simply label themselves as "Christian" usually just accept what others (parents, priests, Bible) tell them without checking the evidence for themselves. Although most people, including Christians and Muslims, may be lost in illusions and myths, I forgive them, because they know not what they do. I prefer to stay optimistic, as cynicism and pessimism are useless and not helpful in the least of ways IMO. I like to think that these fundamental religious groups, along with all other people, have the ability and will soon be able to separate the wheat from the chaff, as to start preaching the truth instead of some washed up myth.
Icelander, I hope this perspective that you are sharing with me is one that sets you free. May you find all that you seek.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
Edited by Jethro Tull (03/22/09 09:44 AM)
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Icelander
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I don't think that most Christians are being honest with themselves.
But you are of course. How special.
Thanks for "preaching" the truth to us. 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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I am being honest with myself. I really don't see how it could be any other way.
Quote:
Thanks for "preaching" the truth to us.
This just shows that you are missing the point all-together.
I am sharing my path in hopes of helping others along the path, while learning from others to help me along the path. If this learning experience comes off as "preaching" to you, then I don't know what wouldn't be considered preaching.
Let it be. 
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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I am sharing my path in hopes of helping others along the path, while learning from others to help me along the path.
Why gee whiz Suzy, why ya raggin on me? That's all I'm doin too.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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If this learning experience comes off as "preaching" to you, then I don't know what wouldn't be considered preaching.
This IMO is preaching, pastor.
Although most people, including Christians and Muslims, may be lost in illusions and myths, I forgive them, because they know not what they do.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Why gee whiz Suzy, why ya raggin on me? That's all I'm doin too.
I could easily pose the same question to you. Why don't we just work together?
Quote:
Icelander said:
This IMO is preaching, pastor.
Although most people, including Christians and Muslims, may be lost in illusions and myths, I forgive them, because they know not what they do.
If I added "IMO" would that have changed anything? Notice the words "most" and "may be," which indicate my opinionated assertions. Is this preaching in your opinion because I referenced a part of the Christian gospel? "Forgive them, for they know not what they do."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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I thought we WERE working together. Don't be so touchy.
If they only "may be" wrong they why do you have to forgive them? But anyway, I forgive you for speaking ignorant shit.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#10019775 - 03/22/09 12:16 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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What did you think of my interpretation of Locomotive Breath, xFrockx?
Would you interpret the lyrics in a different way?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I thought we WERE working together. Don't be so touchy.
Ah yes, good point.
Quote:
If they only "may be" wrong they why do you have to forgive them?
They are wrong from my perspective, but they may not be wrong from other perspectives. Thus, I forgive them. Do you think these religious groups are caught up in illusion and myth? If so, does that make them wrong?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
Edited by Jethro Tull (03/22/09 12:38 PM)
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Icelander
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I think we are all seriously wrong about just about everything.
"Everything you know is wrong" -Firesign Theater.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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xFrockx
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Here's the thing.
Just because we can make sensible interpretations doesn't mean we know what's going on. We can never confirm that's actually what Jethro Tull was trying to get across. For all we know Charlie stole a handle of jim beam.
Edited by xFrockx (03/22/09 04:38 PM)
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xFrockx
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"Everything you can think of is true"
-Tom Waits
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Icelander
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#10021438 - 03/22/09 04:39 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Everything you can think of might be true or not" -Icelander
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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Yeah but you can't think that fishing pole away, no matter how hard you try.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,389
Loc: Luxor
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I am the alpha and the omega; the light and the way. ~ Swami
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#10021461 - 03/22/09 04:43 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
Yeah but you can't think that fishing pole away, no matter how hard you try.
I would never ever ever ever try. My fishing pole is my only connection to "reality" anymore.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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Blow it out your ass Howard.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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Well I can't think those words you wrote away, so either I'm a liar and a figment of your imagination or all this shit, right or wrong, is real.
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Icelander
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#10021481 - 03/22/09 04:46 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Odds are that you are a liar.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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In that case, taking odds is completely justified, and all sorts of using a posteriori insight to justify predictions into the future is a practice which is not only justifyable, its super-cool!
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Page 13 of The Present
"Definition of ultimate truth: It is knowing the truth of life. It is knowing the fundamental, eternal laws of nature and the nature of the mind which distorts and hides it. It is an accurate and complete understanding of “that which is”.
You do not and cannot understand every detail of life and do not have too. You just have to understand the big picture, the fundamental nature of life.
This truth never changes, because “that which is” can never change. It cannot change and exist. When you know life completely, you become life completely.
A man should look for what is and not for what he thinks should be.
Albert Einstein
Self-evident: There is nothing easier to know than the truth, because it is life itself. It is nothing more and nothing less. The truth is the present, the now.
Being is the great explainer.
Henry David Thoreau
It is all true: The truth is simply everything there is, everything that truly exists. If it does not exist, it is not the truth, if it does, it is. “That which is” is everything except the deceptions created by the mind, as they are only real/true to you when you let them be. The truth is life, so everything is the truth; it is all true.
The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is. Winston Churchill
If the mind was not blocking/hiding truth, everyone would know it immediately."
What do you think? Can the truth become self-evident to the individual when they understand that Nature is perfectly balanced, and that the mind distorts "that which is?"
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Can the truth become self-evident to the individual when they understand that Nature is perfectly balanced, and that the mind distorts "that which is?"
I think that this thinking here is flawed. How can nature be perfectly balanced and yet the mind distort that which is? That distortion would have to be a critical part of the balance and to want to change it would be very very very very wrong.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I think that this thinking here is flawed. How can nature be perfectly balanced and yet the mind distort that which is? That distortion would have to be a critical part of the balance and to want to change it would be very very very very wrong.
Interesting point. I would argue that the manifestations (illusions) of the mind are not part of the perfect balance of Nature, because we have control over them, and Nature has control over us. We can choose whether or not to give our thoughts/emotions/feelings life. It's not hard to stop thinking, and start right back up again. Nature has control of us, because nature gives us life in the present moment. Changing your perception has no effect on "that which is." It just changes your perception of "that which is."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#10028250 - 03/23/09 04:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
Here's the thing.
Just because we can make sensible interpretations doesn't mean we know what's going on. We can never confirm that's actually what Jethro Tull was trying to get across. For all we know Charlie stole a handle of jim beam.
You are entirely correct.
I didn't ask if my interpretation was correct. I asked what you thought of it, and if it made sense to you. I also asked if you would interpret it differently.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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Interesting point. I would argue that the manifestations (illusions) of the mind are not part of the perfect balance of Nature, because we have control over them, and Nature has control over us.
This really makes no sense to me. Nature is everything and this puts us outside nature. And, if we have control of our thoughts then nature is NOT in control of us. Rethink this is my suggestion. It's all one brother.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
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Quote:
Icelander said:
This really makes no sense to me. Nature is everything and this puts us outside nature. And, if we have control of our thoughts then nature is NOT in control of us.
Are you saying that we are our thoughts? Are you denying that we do have control over our thoughts? I would argue that even though our thoughts are a result of our perceived environment, we still can choose whether or not to give our thoughts and emotions life (attention). The energy of neurons firing may be a part of Nature, but our perceived thoughts are under our control, and we can start or stop them whenever we want.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
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We and I are thoughts too.
To answer your question though, I don't think it is relevant to this argument whether I think you are correct or not. I was pointing out that we can agree on things and still be wrong, or at least we don't know if we are right.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#10032743 - 03/24/09 12:30 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
To answer your question though, I don't think it is relevant to this argument whether I think you are correct or not. I was pointing out that we can agree on things and still be wrong, or at least we don't know if we are right.
Again, I'll repeat: "I didn't ask if my interpretation was correct. I asked what you thought of it, and if it made sense to you. I also asked if you would interpret it differently."
I'm trying to point out that things can make sense if you check them for yourself. Did you like my interpretation? Did it make sense to you?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
This really makes no sense to me. Nature is everything and this puts us outside nature. And, if we have control of our thoughts then nature is NOT in control of us.
Are you saying that we are our thoughts? Are you denying that we do have control over our thoughts? I would argue that even though our thoughts are a result of our perceived environment, we still can choose whether or not to give our thoughts and emotions life (attention). The energy of neurons firing may be a part of Nature, but our perceived thoughts are under our control, and we can start or stop them whenever we want.
Yes, part of what we are is our thoughts. They are a process of brain function. No brain no thoughts. Brain is part of nature, thoughts then are natural. I personally don't know if we have total control of our thoughts and it really doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. Even if we don't give them our full attention doesn't mean they aren't there or aren't natural.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I personally don't know if we have total control of our thoughts and it really doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. Even if we don't give them our full attention doesn't mean they aren't there or aren't natural.
Do you deny that if the mind is creating something, that you can stop it? Isn't that total control of thoughts? Starting thought, and ending thought?
I think the only part of mind that we have no control over is the unconscious awareness of the mind. Everything else created by the mind is our perception, instincts, thoughts, emotions, feelings, and we can change our perception whenever we want.
Here is a related quote from page 20 of "The Present:"
"Why let your own mind hurt you?
Just as you do not have to think thoughts you do not want to think, you do not have to feel the negative emotions and feelings the mind creates.
If the mind is creating something, it can stop creating it.
If you know the truth, you do not have to live with anything that is not real. You just have to live one hundred percent with what is real and it will leave no room in your life for anything that is not real.
It is interesting that “evil” is “live” spelled backwards. Evil is just the opposite of life, so true life is as far from evil as you can get.
It is all about finding true life. Most people have to suffer a lot before they even start really looking, but it is not necessary.
Most of the suffering in your life is created by the mind, and most of the world’s troubles are also. We have suffered enough; it is time to find life. All we have to do is take control of our minds to do it. The age of the mind is coming to an end.
The truth is the key to controlling your mind.
The word "man" comes from ancient Sanskrit and means "mind".
Mankind is mindkind."
I'm not a big fan of the world "real," because "reality" is subjective. But I digress....
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Well I agree about the conscious part of the mind for the most part. Yet the unconscious has some effect on the conscious mind. You might be able to exert overt control but the minute you let your mind wander, and IMO at some point it will then the unconscious my have a direct effect on your experience.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Well I agree about the conscious part of the mind for the most part. Yet the unconscious has some effect on the conscious mind. You might be able to exert overt control but the minute you let your mind wander, and IMO at some point it will then the unconscious my have a direct effect on your experience.
Well put. I mean, it's very difficult to exert control around other active minds. You just have to see your mind for what it is and let it do what it does. Do not give the negative thoughts (hatred, greed, delusion) your life though. Easier said than done, however, I think it can be done with practice. Evolution has programmed our minds to sneak up on us, and so reprogramming is necessary.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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and let it do what it does.
This would include fear and hate, love and all of it.
Evolution has designed our minds to survive and we have done that very well indeed. No need to change unless conditions change and then there is the time factor. If our environment changes against our adaption will we have time to correct it before extinction. This drama has been played out since the beginning of life on earth, usually with extinction being the end result.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
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Quote:
Icelander said:
and let it do what it does.
This would include fear and hate, love and all of it.
Yes you are right, but seeing the negative thoughts and emotions for what they are and ignoring them is entirely different from acting on them. Acting on them is giving your thoughts/emotions life. You have control as to whether you want to give them life.
Quote:
Evolution has designed our minds to survive and we have done that very well indeed. No need to change unless conditions change and then there is the time factor. If our environment changes against our adaption will we have time to correct it before extinction. This drama has been played out since the beginning of life on earth, usually with extinction being the end result.
See, I think the conditions have changed. It has been survival of the fittest, dog eat dog, and our minds have been programmed in this way for thousands of years. The problems is, it's no longer survival of the fittest. There are nuclear and biological weapons, and people who do not know right from wrong (do not know the truth). Our killing power has "out-evolved" the human race, and this threatens our adaption and brings notions of impending extinction. This drama has been played out many times, but why does extinction have to be the end result this time? This is our chance to avoid extinction and create a heaven on earth. If not now, when? If not us, who?
I think a fundamental change is necessary, which would mean evolving past the animal realm. The only possible way for change to happen, for unity to happen, for heaven on earth to happen, is if the truth becomes self-evident before we destroy ourselves.
See what I'm getting at?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said: There are nuclear and biological weapons, and people who do not know right from wrong (do not know the truth).
The truth is that there is no right or wrong.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
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Yes you are right, but seeing the negative thoughts and emotions for what they are and ignoring them is entirely different from acting on them. Acting on them is giving your thoughts/emotions life. You have control as to whether you want to give them life.
OK yes.
As for the rest it's a very out there opinion that conditions have changed. In your dreams perhaps but not in reality IMO. Evolution has been using survival of the fittest not for just thousands of years as you say but many millions. Just because our current lifestyle may be killing us doesn't mean at all that evolution will become conscious of that fact and say hey I'm not going to do survival of the fittest anymore, and more even, only in the case of humans, and other life forms can go on as before.
How ever much I wish you were correct it all seems like the wildest speculation to me.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
deCypher said:
The truth is that there is no right or wrong.
Aye, they are extremes of the human concept of morality. The problem is, most people live in the extremes without realizing that they are illusions.
Quote:
Icelander said:
Just because our current lifestyle may be killing us doesn't mean at all that evolution will become conscious of that fact and say hey I'm not going to do survival of the fittest anymore, and more even, only in the case of humans, and other life forms can go on as before.
We are not doing survival of the fittest anymore. We are doing "who can make the most destructive weapons." Throughout the "millions of years," or whatever amount of time you want to put on it, survival of the fittest has programmed us to fight and survive. We are really fucking good at fighting at this point. We have weapons that can destroy the entire human race in one hour. The problem is, we do not need to fight anymore, because if we do, we could destroy the Earth and face extinction. Thus, I don't think it's about survival of the fittest anymore. It's survival of the human race. We are part of evolution, so we must become conscious of that fact; the fact that we are all one human race. If we don't get our minds under control very soon, I would say it is probable that we will destroy ourselves in a catastrophe of biblical proportions. Who knows, it could be in 2012. Yeah, it's all probability and speculation of a future that does not exist, but what we do now could help us avoid extinction.
Other life forms can go on as before, because they cannot reason; they cannot choose (at least not on the same level as humans). Speculation: Humans are the only animals that know they are going to die. We can use this to our advantage, to do things that transcend death while we have the chance. The most important of these things, IMO, is to define and spread the ultimate truth.
Quote:
How ever much I wish you were correct it all seems like the wildest speculation to me.
Sure it seems like wild speculation, but does it seem reasonable to you? Does it make sense to you?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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We are not doing survival of the fittest anymore. We are doing "who can make the most destructive weapons."
If you actually think this then I dont' think you understand the process of evolution and survival of the fittest.
In human minds those bombs represent our survival over our enemies no matter how illogical that may be. They are acting unconsciously on survival motivations without thinking consciously logically about the possible consequences of their action. Kind of reminds one of religious thinking doesn't it. Which by the way is also about survival of the fittest IMO.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
Icelander said:
In human minds those bombs represent our survival over our enemies no matter how illogical that may be. They are acting unconsciously on survival motivations without thinking consciously logically about the possible consequences of their action.
Very nice post.
I'm going through The Present again to help edit grammar, and just came across this section. It is relevant to our recent discussions. Tell me what you think.
Page 57-58
"Come together: Where we are now has a lot in common with the Cambrian explosion. Then, we went from single cell animals to multiple cell animals. We had to in order to survive the future changes on the planet. Single cells came together for the benefit of all, and we are doing it again.
Without the truth, it is every man for himself. With the truth; it is one for all, and all for one. The truth and communication technology is connecting us.
Human beings are like big single cell animals. We are not connected to each other, but we are in the process of connecting with each other in order to take the next step in our evolution. We will connect spiritually when the truth is realized.
The connection: The ultimate truth will connect us, and the human race will become like one big organism. It will make the survival of the human race possible, and transforms us into spiritual beings as individuals.
Currently, we are at the top of the evolutionary cycle of this world. There is nowhere to go except to the bottom and start over.
Always getting better: Many people think that life will always get better, that we are always evolving more and more. It is just wishful thinking. The evidence does not support that. Our physical life cycle shows that you physically progress until about age thirty-five, and then you physically start going downhill, so things do not always get better and better, do they? They only do if you know the truth.
The evidence shows that everything is going in a circle.
You cannot come back anywhere in the middle of the evolutionary cycle, because things naturally go in a complete circle. If you cannot come back in the middle, it means you have to come back at the end. You will have to go to the end of the line or it would not be fair to other animals in the evolutionary line.
There are only three ways to go when you die.
The best of the three options would be to move on while moving on is possible. If you start over at the bottom of the evolutionary cycle, you would have to live in the animal world, the world of the fang and claw, for millions of life spans before you get back in this position again. Who wants to do it again?
We have done it at least once, why do it again?
You can only leave the animal cycle and become a spiritual being when you are in our very rare position. If you realize your true nature, and begin to live the life of a spiritual being, you will not go to any animal level again.
Use it or lose it: The only real difference between mankind and all other animals is our ability to reason and think. Thus, our minds have to be what we have to use to evolve further. We have to use what we evolved that separated us from all other animals to actually separate us mentally and physically at rebirth.
We have to use the last step we took to take the next step. Our only job is to become more than we are, while we can.
Everything else we can do, other animals can do better, so our destiny is not tied to anything other animals have or can do. If we do not use our special gift, we will lose it and have to go to the end of the line.
Ultimate purpose: Since we are the only animal with a rational mind, we must use it for its ultimate purpose. We are the only animal that can learn and understand the world we live in. No other animal even knows it is going to die.
There can only be one ultimate purpose for mankind and that is to transcend or evolve past the animal world.
If you die living just as ignorant of life as an animal, you cannot be anything more in the next life. You have to change yourself. You have to become more than just a smart animal while you can."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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Without the truth, it is every man for himself. With the truth; it is one for all, and all for one.
The truth IMO is what is happening. So if we all come together that is the truth and if it's each man for himself that is the truth. Any other idea is an emotionally based self-important human construct IMO.
There are only three ways to go when you die.
The best of the three options would be to move on while moving on is possible. If you start over at the bottom of the evolutionary cycle, you would have to live in the animal world, the world of the fang and claw, for millions of life spans before you get back in this position again. Who wants to do it again?
This will have to be all just wishful thinking until you can provide some shred of evidence for reincarnation. Personally I think its ridiculous and has to do directly with the egos fear of it's own impermanence.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,389
Loc: Luxor
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Dewd, he read it in a book, how can it not be true?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Quote:
Icelander said:
The truth IMO is what is happening. So if we all come together that is the truth and if it's each man for himself that is the truth. Any other idea is an emotionally based self-important human construct IMO.
This doesn't make sense. What you think is happening and what I think is happening is not the same. We all have different perspectives as to what appears to be happening. Nothing "is" happening, there only is what "appears" to be happening. We are all trying to interpret "that which is." Truth = "that which is," not "that which appears to be." We cannot completely know "that which is" because we are limited by our perspective. We can only understand "that which is," and become "that which is."
The bible says, "You will know the unknowable....the hidden things will be revealed to you."
That means you will know how life works, but never know what life is. It is unknowable, because it is infinitely deep and shallow at the same time. It means that even if you live forever knowing how it works, you will never know what it is. You will know it as much as you can and be with it as much as you can, but you will never stop seeking and knowing more about the unknowable. Life surprises you forever.
All knowing how life works does is free you to start knowing what life is. When you no longer have to think about why things happen, and everything is perfect all the time, you can really start just living life completely.
Knowing how life works is the first step and almost no human beings have taken that step. That is what the books (The Presents) are for, and why I am telling people to read it. People need to take the first step. The next step is living the life, and that is the last step because it never ends. You will know the unknowable as the bible says, but it still is the unknowable, there is no contradiction there, even though people that have not taken the first step will think it is.
Quote:
This will have to be all just wishful thinking until you can provide some shred of evidence for reincarnation. Personally I think its ridiculous and has to do directly with the egos fear of it's own impermanence.
I don't know what your definition of reincarnation is, but I think some form of rebirth or recycling has to exist, or else evolution could not progress. My view of reincarnation is that the highest level of awareness achieved in the previous life span is where the next starts at. I won't go any farther than saying that evolution appears to be proof of some kind of reincarnation. Consciousness must be recycled, just like everything else in the universe. It transmigrates into new life-forms.
Do you think that it is possible that some "unperceived force" (collective unconscious, universal mind, Holy Spirit) connects all consciousness?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
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My view of reincarnation is that the highest level of awareness achieved in the previous life span is where the next starts at. I won't go any farther than saying that evolution appears to be proof of some kind of reincarnation. Consciousness must be recycled, just like everything else in the universe.
You can view it anyway you like but there is no evidence for it. How is evolution proof of reincarntaion and why must consciousness be recycled. The only thing that gets recycled is energy and that can take any form.
I really can't make sense of your reasoning in this debate so I'm going to move on. Happy trails.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
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Aye, Icelander. Moving on (while staying on the current subject). Tell me what you think of this (anyone).
Page 62 of "The Present"
"A billion is a big number: If you started counting non-stop, day and night, seven days a week, and said a new number every second, it would take almost thirty-two years for you to count to a billion. Animal life has been on earth almost a billion years. If you put those seconds into years, you get an idea of how long we have been on earth as some other form of life. Someone had to be those animals, and since we evolved directly from them, it had to be us. Nothing else would make sense.
We cannot remember any of our past lives, because when one of our bodies die, our minds and memories die with them, but now we know, and it will change us.
The truth sets you free: We may not remember we lived before, but we now know we did, and we must act on that knowledge if we do not want to go through the evolutionary cycle again. The truth sets you free from the animal cycle."
Page 63 of "The Present"
"Those dinosaur bones we are always digging up were part of someone’s body that lived a long time ago. It is no different than digging up the skeleton of a human that lived long ago. Bones are proof of a living being that lived before. A million years from now someone could dig up the bones that are in our bodies now. Would people understand that they belonged to someone that really lived? Would they understand that they could have been them? Would they realize that they could be digging up their own bones from another life they lived?
100% of the evidence says it’s true; there is no evidence of anything else.
We have thousands of museums of natural history filled with the hard evidence of our evolution, and there is no hard evidence that anything else happened.
Rational mind: A rational mind is the only thing that separates us from the lower animals. If we do not use it, we are not using what makes us special and superior to other animals. We are giving up what makes us different from other animals.
If you do not use the rational mind, you are not using the one thing you need to use to learn the truth and take the next step in evolution. Reason is what we gained in our last step in evolution. It is what makes us mankind. We now have to use it to take the next step and become spiritual beings. Use it or lose it.
When literally all of the evidence says evolution is true, and there is zero percent hard evidence for anything else, a rational honest person has to accept the fact that we came from lower animals. It is what a rational mind would conclude.
If you do not have a rational mind, that is what is not right, not evolution.
The evidence is sacred: Evidence is the most sacred thing that there is, because it reveals the truth. The truth reveals true life and sets you free.
The evidence: The bones are found on our planet in the dirt we now walk on, and we know their age for certain. Their ages fit perfectly with how long it would take to evolve from them to us. Everything adds up perfectly.
The bones are from animals that are in our direct genetic line. We are genetically less than one percent different from chimpanzees, and we are connected genetically to all the animal life that ever lived on this planet.
Dinosaurs had two eyes, a brain, backbones, hearts, lungs, stomachs, blood, mouths, noses, ears, and four limbs. They have the same basics we have now as humans. They slept, ate, mated, and were born and died, just as we do now.
The evidence says that we were once them, that we evolved from them. There is no evidence that we come from somewhere else. Thus, we have to conclude it is true, until there is better evidence to show we came from somewhere else."
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Just going through The Present editing grammar, thought I'd give the daily bread. 
Page 81
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A spiritual being cannot be hurt by anything that happens.
Nothing can hurt someone that knows the truth, so you need to be sure you do.
Living in peace and harmony is the true nature of spiritual beings, so when times get tough, they do not start fighting and killing each other; they start working together to make the best of it until it passes. Spiritual people can handle, even enjoy, anything that nature or man throws at them; it makes life more interesting. If we stay on the animal level, we will have a blood bath in the near future for certain; if we change into spiritual beings and there is enough of us fast enough, there is a much better chance it will not happen, and if it does, it will not affect us.
We just have to get past the mind alive. We have to recognize what is happening and go with it. We are beginning to see the two paths, and can take the right one.
The age of the mind: You may be thinking I am putting down the mind, the mind that has created everything we have now. I am not saying the mind is a bad thing, I am just saying the mind is a double-edged sword. The mind has done a lot of positive cutting, and if it does not change, it will swing the other way and do a lot of negative cutting, and it will do it soon.
Age of the spirit: We are simply at a new cusp, the end of one era and the beginning of another. It is the end of the age of the mind and the beginning of the age of the spirit. It can be a smooth transition if we see the truth soon.
I am not putting down the mind, it has done its job and done it well. It has done a lot of good, but it is about to do a lot of bad. We have no choice except to move past it, or have the greatest catastrophe in our history.
The future: If the beast prevails, we know what will happen, because we know our bloody savage history, but most people cannot imagine what the future will be like if we all begin to learn the ultimate truth.
The following is how I see it:
The rest of our current lifespan: In the past, we had to fight and kill to live; now for a brief period, mankind no longer has to hurt or destroy others of its own kind to survive; we no longer need to live like the animals we evolved from. This means we have time to change. When we change, the world will change with us.
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What do you think of that bold paragraph?
Is this our chance to have a fundamental change in perspective?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
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Quote:
Nothing can hurt someone that knows the truth, so you need to be sure you do.
Many things can hurt someone who thinks they know the truth, so you need to be sure you don't.:)
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
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Re: The Present [Re: Rahz]
#10146770 - 04/11/09 07:38 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Do we have the capability to realize the truth and live in it?
Do you think we all have an inherent Buddha-nature?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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deff
just relax
Registered: 05/01/04
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i think so
people have internal momentum (I am this, I am going there, I want that)
when you stop wanting, what's always been there starts to become very self obvious
then others, with their momentum, seem almost masochistic for doing it to themselves (but at the same time - you can still relate - for now)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Do we have the capability to realize the truth and live in it?
Do you think we all have an inherent Buddha-nature?
I think each of us has the capability to realize what looks to be truth to us, but this truth is not necessarily the same truth as another person's.
How are you defining Buddha-nature?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Do we have the capability to realize the truth and live in it?
Do you think we all have an inherent Buddha-nature?
Yes, but most want to be saved instead.
We all have an animal nature that affords us all the opportunities we will ever need.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,200
Last seen: 5 minutes, 2 seconds
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Do we have the capability to realize the truth and live in it?
Do you think we all have an inherent Buddha-nature?
Depends on what you mean by live in it. If the truth is timeless awareness of the now, I think most people have the capability to realize it. Living in it is an all together different prospect, though many people seem to manage to do a pretty good job, though they carry illusions with them just the same IMO. But is timeless awareness the whole truth, or just a basis on which to learn? I see gurus, who seem to have a pretty good grasp of the present, get caught up in sex scandals or legal troubles. Does non-duality teach all a person needs to know about duality, or is there more truth to discover? I see gurus who get exasperated with students, wondering... will anyone ever "get this"?. Then they find themselves wondering if perhaps everything is not perfect the way it is, and consider that their students confusion might be a mirror of their own.
Could you clarify the difference between Buddha nature, and Buddha? Does our Buddha nature know the truth, or does Buddha know the truth?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Rahz said:
But is timeless awareness the whole truth, or just a basis on which to learn?
Interesting post man, I can definitely see where you're coming from. I would say knowing the truth (timeless awareness of now) is not the same as living in it, but necessary to live in it. Reminds me of the footprint of the Buddha. It was there, but now it is somewhere else. Living in the truth is a never ending quest, because now is always changing. The first step is understanding the truth, and the next step is living in it, because Life is eternal. All understanding truth does is allow to begin to know what it is, because you are perceiving "that which is" with an unclouded mind. So I'd say awareness a basis on which to learn, because the path of enlightenment is a never-ending learning experience (Life), and the Dharma can only be found in the now.
Quote:
deCypher said:
How are you defining Buddha-nature?
The inherent nature within us all to purify the mind of delusion. The potential to see things as they are.
Quote:
Could you clarify the difference between Buddha nature, and Buddha? Does our Buddha nature know the truth, or does Buddha know the truth?
Buddha-nature is something that must be realized, and once it is realized, we become the Buddha. We all have the potential to see things as they are, just as the Buddha saw things. Mind-truth (truth we can know) helps us realize our Buddha-nature, and when we see things as they are, we become the Buddha. We become Life, we manifest truth, and we reflect the qualities of the Buddha.
Ah...Emptiness. Difficult to put into words, not-so difficult to realize. Emptiness is inherent in all things.
PS: I went to a Zen Buddhist service on this Easter morning, and coincidentally, these are some of the things we discussed. 
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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I've been contemplating something lately, and that is the Internet. This book talks about the true purpose and goal of the Internet; to define and spread the truth.
Page 73:
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Now is the time: The time has finally come to see what has been hidden from us. It is time to put the pieces of the puzzle together, so people can see the truth and life clearly and completely for the first time. The evolution of technology, such as the Internet, and other forms of mass communication, have evolved enough to reach just about all of mankind.
One mind: It is the real reason why worldwide communication technology evolved. The worldwide internet web is mankind’s effort to connect all minds on a conscious level, to create one conscious collective mind. The telephone lines that transmit the internet are like the nerves in a giant brain. People online are like the neurons. It is making the world one brain or mind. This network will make it possible to see the truth, transcend the mind, and live happily ever after.
If it was not for the Internet, you would not be reading this now, would you?
---
The Internet and other communication/networking technology has obviously been the catalyst in our exponential evolutionary growth in the past 20 years or so. We are becoming one mind with the Internet, a collective unconscious mind that can be accessed electronically to retrieve information. Now is the time for the masses to know the truth, because the internet can reach people all over the world in a short time.
Page 74
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Build the collective unconscious: The more people that see the contest and read this book, the more that will do it. The more people that wake up, the more people that will be able to wake up. This is because the ultimate truth gets stronger in the collective unconscious. It gets stronger and makes it easier for people to see the truth. It will snowball, but until then, seers like us need to work.
Critical mass: For a while, the ultimate truth will move unseen and underground, just on the internet (it is happening now). If we work hard (send a lot of letters), at some point, enough people will have woken up for mankind to reach a kind of critical mass. When this happens there will be an explosion in the truth and life, and just about everyone will wake up in the twinkling of an eye.
Turn the tables: Ninety percent of the internet is used for pornography, to sell products, spread gossip, and rip people off. That is not what it was created for. It was created subconsciously for one ultimate purpose, and that is to find and spread the ultimate truth.
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The truth needs to reach people relatively quickly, and at the same time, or else it will die out and be clouded by myths. The Internet makes it possible to spread the truth to the masses, so that we can all wake up at the same time and destroy the deception in our world.
Page 49
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In the blink of an eye: The influence of other minds has kept people from opening up. That is why most people have to see the truth and the life at the same time. The influence of other minds has made it almost impossible to live without the mind. The internet has made it possible to all see it together.
Great spirits are always opposed by mediocre minds.
Albert Einstein
Communication: The only hope for the truth is for it to be heard by a large percentage of mankind at about the same time. Communication technology has finally evolved to the point that the truth can reach most of mankind in a short period. Once the ultimate truth is defined, it can be spread to everyone almost instantaneously. In the past, the truth could not get out and survive, because only a very small percentage of mankind could hear the truth. The majority of the people that did not understand it, or believed in a myth, would beat them down and the truth would end up hidden in myths.
Spiritual beings could not win in the past, but the times are changing, and thanks to worldwide communication, spiritual people can win now.
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We are at what could be called a "cusp" in our evolutionary progress. We have been gradually moving from separation to unity, and we have been in this continuous cycle forever (as far as I know). Right now, we are in a deep sleep, but it's always the darkest before dawn. The truth is what unites us all, and the Internet is the medium over which it will be transmitted. It hasn't worked in the past because prophets have not had the ability to spread the truth with the communication technology we have now. Now is our chance. The truth must be revealed to the masses before we destroy ourselves as separate and competing countries, organizations, and entities.
Bottom Line: The purpose of the evolution of communication technology and the Internet is to connect humans as one mind, so that we can define, spread, and most importantly, learn the ultimate truth as to wake up to our true nature and see the world "as it is."
One Love.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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The mind has created the world we live in today, and it will continue to do great things in the future if we do not destroy ourselves. We must see past the mind and embrace Oneness. We must get control of our minds, so that they go from our bosses to our technical consultants, from our controlling overlord to our companion, from the devil to a guardian angel.
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We just have to get past the mind alive. We have to recognize what is happening and go with it. We are beginning to see the two paths, and can take the right one.
The age of the mind: You may be thinking I am putting down the mind, the mind that has created everything we have now. I am not saying the mind is a bad thing, I am just saying the mind is a double-edged sword. The mind has done a lot of positive cutting, and if it does not change, it will swing the other way and do a lot of negative cutting, and it will do it soon.
Age of the spirit: We are simply at a new cusp, the end of one era and the beginning of another. It is the end of the age of the mind and the beginning of the age of the spirit. It can be a smooth transition if we see the truth soon.
I am not putting down the mind, it has done its job and done it well. It has done a lot of good, but it is about to do a lot of bad. We have no choice except to move past it, or have the greatest catastrophe in our history.
The future: If the beast prevails, we know what will happen, because we know our bloody savage history, but most people cannot imagine what the future will be like if we all begin to learn the ultimate truth.
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Page 81 of The Present at www.thetruthcontest.com
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Wow what a silly post. You act like history began and will end with your measly lifetime.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (06/21/09 12:27 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Stranger
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,158
Loc: On the Border
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Quote:
The Internet and other communication/networking technology has obviously been the catalyst in our exponential evolutionary growth in the past 20 years or so. We are becoming one mind with the Internet, a collective unconscious mind that can be accessed electronically to retrieve information. Now is the time for the masses to know the truth, because the internet can reach people all over the world in a short time.
Humans have always been "borg" like. You put to much stock in the internet. This is just a collection of bored losers with too much time on their hands. People will do what they always have done.
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Maybe there is no Heaven. Maybe this is all pure gibberish — a product of the demented imagination of a lazy drunken hillbilly with a heart full of hate who has found a way to live out where the real winds blow — to sleep late, have fun, get wild, drink whiskey, and drive fast on empty streets with nothing in mind except falling in love and not getting arrested...
--HST
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justamonkey
Stranger
Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Quote:
The Internet and other communication/networking technology has obviously been the catalyst in our exponential evolutionary growth in the past 20 years or so. We are becoming one mind with the Internet, a collective unconscious mind that can be accessed electronically to retrieve information. Now is the time for the masses to know the truth, because the internet can reach people all over the world in a short time.
Humans have always been "borg" like. You put to much stock in the internet. This is just a collection of bored losers with too much time on their hands. People will do what they always have done.
That's true. Whether you form a plan and act is where it really counts, especially if it leads to your death.
And, as a side note, all plans lead there, that's sort of where life leads. So, if you ain't acting on a plan, any plan, then you're not really doing anything but twiddling your thumbs waiting to die, which you obviously don't properly fear.
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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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So, if you ain't acting on a plan, any plan, then you're not really doing anything but twiddling your thumbs waiting to die, which you obviously don't properly fear.
Any plan? Everyone has a plan but it might not be the one you respect. Everyone is twiddling their thumbs waiting to die and I've never met anyone who wasn't. It's just self importance that makes us believe otherwise.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
So, if you ain't acting on a plan, any plan, then you're not really doing anything but twiddling your thumbs waiting to die, which you obviously don't properly fear.
Any plan? Everyone has a plan but it might not be the one you respect. Everyone is twiddling their thumbs waiting to die and I've never met anyone who wasn't. It's just self importance that makes us believe otherwise.
I'm not waiting to die. I'm living right now. All this talk about death anxiety is boring. Yes, we know that almost everything we do to gain the illusion of security is born out of death anxiety. Sure, people need to realize that they are going to die no matter what. However, by constantly thinking about death, you forget that you are alive right now. That is the most important thing to remember and realize; you are alive right now. Without the thirst for further existence, where is there room for death anxiety, for the perceived need of security, for suffering?
The only plan I have is to spread the truth and learn from others, and the only path I walk is life. It's never-ending, always new, always surprising, and the journey and destination are both right now.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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The only plan I have is to spread the "truth" (read personal religion)
You can't handle the truth.
I didn't mean waiting to die as in thinking about nothing else, I meant as in heading toward no matter what.
I think about death quite often but no where near 24/7
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Well yes, heading toward death no matter what is a truth that is important to realize, especially for those who chase the illusion of security. I see what you mean.
By spreading the truth, I mean seeking the truth by sharing with and learning from others. I am forever a student of the universe. I want to let everyone be themselves, wherever they are on their paths, and maybe do my best to be a wordless example for them. If someone hurts me, I will not hurt back, I will show compassion, and I will not contribute to the chain of suffering. I think that if I can make the knot loser, then it will become more easily untangled.
We don't need this book by any means. All this conceptualization is just in our heads. I see the book as a spark to get people talking about the truth.
Page 262 of The Present
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Leaders/followers: The truth needs no leaders, just teachers. It is important to keep personalities out of it. Followers get dependent on spiritual leaders, the leaders get dependent on the followers and the truth is lost.. The truth is people need to lead themselves. All the truth needs is the internet and work to spread it.
You must take all the help you can get and give as much help as you can.
This time the truth is not dependent on a single leader. In the past, a lowlife could kill a prophet and stop the truth from getting out, but not now.
This book is just the spark that will get people talking about the real truth. I am just a guy with a match that is trying to start a truth fire.
Tuned in: I am just a tuned in guy, throwing out things I can see, that no one else seems to see. When others start to see them, people will come together and better define the truth. We will see the issues clearly for the first time and the solutions to our problems; we will then solve them as fast as is possible.
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Talking about this book really helps keep me on track, and learning from you guys and others helps bring me out of little ego trips that I have once in a while. I just show people this book because there is a lot of good stuff in it, like the Beatles section. However, 300+ pages is a bit lengthy to express ultimate truth. A blank page would do. The reason it is so long is that it talks about many issues that we are facing today.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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How could anyone be sure of what the "real truth" is?
You continually impress me with your narrow religious outlook, and pompous self importance.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
How could anyone be sure of what the "real truth" is?
Page 14 of The Present
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Forgiven: In the past, the truth could not be known by most people, so faith was all they could have, so they will be forgiven for deceiving people if they change. People’s faith in myths was necessary to get us to where we are now, but now that the truth is revealed, faith is just a bridge to knowing.
The real truth unites people, it does not divide them. It makes sense and applies to everyone all the time everywhere. It creates clarity, not confusion. The truth leads to real equality, freedom, peace, love and understanding. The real truth only asks you to believe in something you can check for yourself.
Believing what you are told: You should not have to take someone else’s word for anything as serious and important as the truth about life and death. People lie, misunderstand, distort, misinterpret and exaggerate. People can just be wrong or have schizophrenia and hear voices that they believe come from God.
Monkey see, monkey do: Most people just tell people what they have been told the truth is. They just accept what others say the truth is, especially if it is what people have been accepting as the truth for thousands of years. It is monkey see, monkey do. Second hand truth should not be believed or repeated without checking it out for yourself. The age of playing follow the leader is ending now.
Second hand truth is called hearsay in a court of law and is not admissible for an important reason; it has proven not to be a dependable source of the truth.
What could be more irresponsible than saying something is true without knowing beyond a reasonable doubt that it is true? Billions of people are doing it.
Truth will have no gods before it. The belief in truth begins with the doubt of all truths in which one has previously believed. Friedrich Nietzsche
Do not believe what anyone says, including me, check things yourself. You have to see the truth yourself in life itself to know it.
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Quote:
You continually impress me with your narrow religious outlook, and pompous self importance.
Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
By spreading the truth, I mean seeking the truth by sharing with and learning from others. I am forever a student of the universe. I want to let everyone be themselves, wherever they are on their paths, and maybe do my best to be a wordless example for them. If someone hurts me, I will not hurt back, I will show compassion, and I will not contribute to the chain of suffering. I think that if I can make the knot loser, then it will become more easily untangled.
We don't need this book by any means. All this conceptualization is just in our heads. I see the book as a spark to get people talking about the truth.
Narrow religious outlook? Pompous self-importance?
Maybe I'm missing something that you seem to see.
Or maybe you're just so used to responding to me negatively that you read my posts with a pre-conceived bias. Beats me.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Page 76 of The Present
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Destroy the present: You have to be yourself, but on whatever level is in the air when socializing. You cannot talk about the present without destroying it in the process. It is always better to live in the present than talk about it and you really cannot do both unless you both know the truth.
You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink.
When you learn the ultimate truth, you just start living in it, doing what you did before you knew it. The only difference is you begin to live life consciously.
All you have to do is remember everything balances, so there is no reason not to enjoy every single moment of your life, no matter what is happening.
Mankind will never be able to live together in peace and harmony. It never has and never will. It is impossible, because it is not in mankind’s true nature. Mankind’s true nature is the nature of the beast. People can and do resist it, but it cannot be changed by resisting and repressing it. Only the truth can overcome it.
Mankind will always act like mankind when push comes to shove, and push will always come to shove. When it happens, the majority of mankind will always behave like the animals they are, which drags everyone down to the animal level.
The Beast must die and the only way to kill it is with the truth.
The only way to get rid of the beast is at the source. The beast must die for the spiritual being to be born. If the beast does not die, the whole human race will. We are all in an undeclared mental war for this world.
People have it backwards, you are not reborn, the mind just dies, because it was never really alive in the first place.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Rahz
Dead Gone Forgotten
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 4,200
Last seen: 5 minutes, 2 seconds
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Quote:
All you have to do is remember everything balances, so there is no reason not to enjoy every single moment of your life, no matter what is happening.
You should pontificate that, it's not making sense to me. 
Quote:
Mankind will never be able to live together in peace and harmony.
There's a phrase I like: "The world is your mirror", you might be familiar with it. How does that quote relate to it?
Quote:
If the beast does not die, the whole human race will.
This quote seems to conflict with the last one, almost as if certain individuals are special, and must save the rest of us.
Big Brother?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
How could anyone be sure of what the "real truth" is?
Page 14 of The Present
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Forgiven: In the past, the truth could not be known by most people, so faith was all they could have, so they will be forgiven for deceiving people if they change. People?s faith in myths was necessary to get us to where we are now, but now that the truth is revealed, faith is just a bridge to knowing.
The real truth unites people, it does not divide them. It makes sense and applies to everyone all the time everywhere. It creates clarity, not confusion. The truth leads to real equality, freedom, peace, love and understanding. The real truth only asks you to believe in something you can check for yourself.
Believing what you are told: You should not have to take someone else?s word for anything as serious and important as the truth about life and death. People lie, misunderstand, distort, misinterpret and exaggerate. People can just be wrong or have schizophrenia and hear voices that they believe come from God.
Monkey see, monkey do: Most people just tell people what they have been told the truth is. They just accept what others say the truth is, especially if it is what people have been accepting as the truth for thousands of years. It is monkey see, monkey do. Second hand truth should not be believed or repeated without checking it out for yourself. The age of playing follow the leader is ending now.
Second hand truth is called hearsay in a court of law and is not admissible for an important reason; it has proven not to be a dependable source of the truth.
What could be more irresponsible than saying something is true without knowing beyond a reasonable doubt that it is true? Billions of people are doing it.
Truth will have no gods before it. The belief in truth begins with the doubt of all truths in which one has previously believed. Friedrich Nietzsche
Do not believe what anyone says, including me, check things yourself. You have to see the truth yourself in life itself to know it.
-----
Quote:
You continually impress me with your narrow religious outlook, and pompous self importance.
Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
By spreading the truth, I mean seeking the truth by sharing with and learning from others. I am forever a student of the universe. I want to let everyone be themselves, wherever they are on their paths, and maybe do my best to be a wordless example for them. If someone hurts me, I will not hurt back, I will show compassion, and I will not contribute to the chain of suffering. I think that if I can make the knot loser, then it will become more easily untangled.
We don't need this book by any means. All this conceptualization is just in our heads. I see the book as a spark to get people talking about the truth.
Narrow religious outlook? Pompous self-importance?
Maybe I'm missing something that you seem to see.
Or maybe you're just so used to responding to me negatively that you read my posts with a pre-conceived bias. Beats me.
And a Christian quotes from the Bible. Are you really so ignorant that you cannot comprehend my question?
I respond you you as I do cause I think you're just another religious zelot. Not one ever sees themselves as such but that's just what they/you are.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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us and them
and after all
we're only ordinary men
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,569
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago.
Last seen: 2 days, 5 hours
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Re: The Present [Re: xFrockx]
#10587942 - 06/28/09 05:24 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Living in the moment is impossible. The reason this is so, is because it would be impossible tell when you are actually in the moment or out of it. The 'moment' is a concept it is something we identify an experience with. To be in the moment, you would have to experience. Living in the moment is impossible, because we live in a society where commitment is the founding way of interacting, on any level, whether it is work, love and family. I would suggest living in the moment, as a way to relieve stress and also when you can no longer learn from your past or prepare for the future.
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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
us and them
and after all
we're only ordinary men
Yes, so why pretend you know something you can't possibly.
The "truth" is just your personal opinion today.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Jethro Tull quotes Pink Floyd? 
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Yes, so why pretend you know something you can't possibly.
The "truth" is just your personal opinion today.
The ultimate truth is beyond my opinion or any conceptualization. It is.
The effectiveness of the means by which it is portrayed (relative truth) is just my personal opinion today.
IMO, The Present is the most inclusive, understandable explanation that is out there.
IMO, it addresses many of our current problems and questions effectively and truthfully.
IMO, it's a damn good read.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Yes, so why pretend you know something you can't possibly.
The "truth" is just your personal opinion today.
The ultimate truth is beyond my opinion or any conceptualization. It is.
The effectiveness of the means by which it is portrayed (relative truth) is just my personal opinion today.
IMO, The Present is the most inclusive, understandable explanation that is out there.
IMO, it addresses many of our current problems and questions effectively and truthfully.
IMO, it's a damn good read.
That's cool, IMO it has some good shit in it and some of it is psychologically sound but there is no evidence of any final truth there. With finite capabilities we cannot know the infinite (IMO)
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
That's cool, IMO it has some good shit in it and some of it is psychologically sound but there is no evidence of any final truth there. With finite capabilities we cannot know the infinite (IMO)
I've read this quote from Lao-Tzu once, or it was a little story that went a bit like this:
Once there we're two monks sitting in the grass, one was a new monk and he was reading some kind of old script of which he thought; I can learn something from this.
He did not understand what the script wanted to tell him, so he asked the other high ranked monk to read it for him.
The elderly monk answered: "I would, but I cannot read."
The new monk replied: "But how can you be a high ranked monk if you can not read the scripts?"
On which the elderly monk replied: "I do not desire to being able to read words, because words only POINT at the essential truth."
He gave an example; "I point my finger at the moon, but without me pointing to the moon, the moon is already there, and it does not rely on my finger to show the people that it is there."
"That is the same that words do, they POINT at the essential truth, but the truth is already there to be understood, like the moon to be seen."
I think The Present points at the ultimate truth, final truth, essential truth, whatever you want to call it, but the infinite cannot be put into words, only experienced. The Present points at the infinite NOW, but to truly be present in the moment and to think about how the present is all there is is not the same.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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The problem with this unlikely story is that the Monks were using words the same as reading in a book is using words. It sounds very deep and profound until you actually think about it for yourself.
For the hundredth time, there is no way to know if one or something is pointing at ultimate truth or not. Why, cause we don't know and can't know with our finite consciousness what the infinite is or means. End of fucking story.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
For the hundredth time, there is no way to know if one or something is pointing at ultimate truth or not. Why, cause we don't know and can't know with our finite consciousness what the infinite is or means. End of fucking story.
Why is it that we must know what infinity is or means? All we can do is be infinity, know that it has to be infinite. No sense makes sense, but no sense is not the same as nonsense. The mind has its limits, and infinity is beyond the mind.
Check out the new and improved site:
Truth Contest
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,713
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 22 minutes, 49 seconds
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Yeah if the monk couldn't read why wouldn't he also de-focus his hearing so he could not understand the spoken word?
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Greetings
I remember when I first showed this book over a year ago - got a lot of complaints about how long it was or how random and unfocused it was.
If anyone is interested, it is about 1/3 of the previous length, and much more focused now.
Check it out if you have time and share your thoughts --- Hopefully it will raise some good discussion and dialogue.
The Present (universal truth) at The Truth Contest
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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