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 redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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mind is balanced too.
garbage in garbage out.
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 Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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I'm talking about the conscious mind, the thinking/rationalizing/identifying mind. We can give our emotions life, or turn off our mind to them. We can dwell on thoughts, worry about the future, or we can turn off our thoughts and live in the present moment. How can something we are able to control be balanced like Nature?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 22 days
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Like I said before, take or leave my interpretations of the truth. It is interesting to read what you have to say. So by saying that the mind is what we are, are you saying that life completely ends at death?
Do you have evidence to the contrary?
Quote:
Jethro Tull said: Do you think that the mind is just a part of the brain, or something more? Is there a part of our consciousness that goes on that has nothing to do with our bodies?
Probably not, unless something metaphysical actually exists out there. But if there were something beyond the realm of the physical universe, we wouldn't be able to observe it
Quote:
Jethro Tull said:I agree that nature can do extravagant things without the mind; it is perfectly balanced. Do you think that nature would do the same things without our individual conscious minds?
I have no idea what you are saying here, "nature" doesn't need people in order for it to exist. Are you also implying that our minds have direct influence upon the physical universe?
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Do you have evidence to the contrary?
I do not have evidence of anything beyond the realm of the physical universe, as I am just a human like you, I was just posing a question.
Quote:
I have no idea what you are saying here, "nature" doesn't need people in order for it to exist. Are you also implying that our minds have direct influence upon the physical universe?
Again, I was posing a question; not implying anything. I'm trying to learn from you by asking questions; the quest to seek the truth is never ending. No matter how close I think I am to the truth, I will always be seeking. It is the path of a truth seeker.
We must have the wonderment of a child when it comes to life. Life is very mysterious, we may know what it does, be we cannot know what it is. We can never know it mentally, we can just be it, reflect it, experience the wonders.
Truth is self-evident to me; I can try to put it in words, but the same words will be perceived differently by everyone. These "back-and-forth" posts are making some interesting conversation, but I made this thread to talk about the ideas in "The Present," not my own interpretation. I think the book does a great job of rationalizing by being in the middle ground of religion and science, and I'd like to hear your opinions about it.
What do you think about the first page, with the drawing regarding "the mind blocking true life?" Do you agree that the mind filters life by focusing on what the mind thinks is important?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 22 days
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1. You said you knew what the truth was and now you say you can never know the truth and we're on a constant quest?
2. I would say that the brain filters out stimuli that isn't perceived as important, not the mind. In either case, this is well accepted in the scientific community. If we paid attention to absolutely everything, it would be too hard to function. From an evolutionary standpoint this is necessary.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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I never said I knew what the truth was; I'm not here to preach. I just said the truth is self-evident to me and I posted this thread/book to help all of you. Helping others completely fulfills me and brings me into the present moment.
We must always seek, because there is always more to learn. We are a part of life, and life flows within us and without us; what could be more interesting in learning the truth about life and death? What could be more important? Life is everything.
By your last statement, I propose the question: Do you believe the mind is separate from the brain?
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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"That which was true" indicates the past truth. We can no longer experience it, we can only experience the present. We can learn from the past truth.
Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
If the present is the only thing that can be experienced, how can the truth exist anywhere else?
This quote above contradicts the quote above it.
"Time is based on perception; the more aware you are of your environment, the slower time moves from your perspective. So yes, I am positing that time is illusory, for time is based on perception and relative measurement."
I thought it was based on my alarm clock? 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
are we talking about time, the experience of time as a sensory gestalt, the memory of times past, the imagination of future times, mechanical trajectories - or all of these things?
All of them. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 22 days
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
I never said I knew what the truth was; I'm not here to preach.
really?
Quote:
Jethro Tull said: I just said the truth is self-evident to me and I posted this thread/book to help all of you.
So you say that the truth is self-evident to you but you don't know what the truth is? And you also said that the truth is the present? Quit contradicting yourself.
Quote:
Jethro Tull said:We must always seek, because there is always more to learn. We are a part of life, and life flows within us and without us; what could be more interesting in learning the truth about life and death? What could be more important? Life is everything.
Truth for humanity cannot be known because of the limit of our knowledge, by which I mean time, perspective, and that we don't have all the facts.
Quote:
Jethro Tull said:By your last statement, I propose the question: Do you believe the mind is separate from the brain?
No, I don't see any reason why I should think the contrary. I should now ask you what you hope to accomplish with this petty form of dialectic.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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 Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9810972 - 02/16/09 09:03 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
This quote above contradicts the quote above it.
It seems like you'd rather search my words for contradictions in text as opposed to reading the book and discussing it. You are wasting your time.
The truth can only be found in the present, because you can't be anywhere else; you can't look anywhere else. We can learn from the past by remembering it in our minds. You can play around with "was" and "is" all day long in your mind, but the present moment is still the only thing you will ever experience.
You should seek the truth instead of picking apart my statements; seeking will benefit you a lot more.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 22 days
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I would much rather you retort than completely sidestep the questions.
Also, all you've said is where to look for truth. Which is blatently obvious and actually kind of pointless. You've basically said we need to look for truth in existence.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,645
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
I'm talking about the conscious mind, the thinking/rationalizing/identifying mind. We can give our emotions life, or turn off our mind to them. We can dwell on thoughts, worry about the future, or we can turn off our thoughts and live in the present moment. How can something we are able to control be balanced like Nature?
I do not know anybody that is in control of their mind.
I do know several people, however, who by practice have cultivated habits that are very good, like tending a garden, their minds become more lovely than they would be if just let run amok.
nature and mind are very similar.
oh, and as to the question of separating mind from brain.
this is not a question that is aimed at the moment but aimed at reaping other spiritual prejudices.
mind need not be viewed as brain to be understood in the larger sense, but mind as tied to brain is the best way to see mind in the present.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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I know you would much rather have me retort. It fuels your fire, your mind. You love playing mind games. I love helping people.
I've been repeating where to look for it because you need to find it yourself. I'm asking you to read the book because it really helped me understand some things. You need to seek, my friend.
Why do you care about what I have to say so much that you want to pick out every contradiction you can find? Are you trying to prove that I'm not omniscient or something? I already know I'm not, and you already know I'm not. I don't see the point in the petty mind games.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
Quote:
This quote above contradicts the quote above it.
It seems like you'd rather search my words for contradictions in text as opposed to reading the book and discussing it. You are wasting your time.
The truth can only be found in the present, because you can't be anywhere else; you can't look anywhere else. We can learn from the past by remembering it in our minds. You can play around with "was" and "is" all day long in your mind, but the present moment is still the only thing you will ever experience.
You should seek the truth instead of picking apart my statements; seeking will benefit you a lot more.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 22 days
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
I know you would much rather have me retort. It fuels your fire, your mind. You love playing mind games. I love helping people.
I've been repeating where to look for it because you need to find it yourself. I'm asking you to read the book because it really helped me understand some things. You need to seek, my friend.
Why do you care about what I have to say so much that you want to pick out every contradiction you can find? Are you trying to prove that I'm not omniscient or something? I already know I'm not, and you already know I'm not. I don't see the point in the petty mind games.
And i've been repeating that I still don't see any reason to believe that book. I think the reason you won't retort is because you have nothing to retort. I've already made a prima facie so the burden of proof has been moved to you.
EDIT: Of course I would like you to retort, it's called seeking truth through debate. Unless you don't want to find truth... Where do you get off telling me that I love to play mind games and that you conversely love helping people as if we are polar opposites? That's not even relevant to the situation at hand.
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Edited by learningtofly (02/16/09 09:23 PM)
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Believe it if you need it, if you don't just pass it on. I've got nothing to prove to you, just a book to show you. I feel no imaginary "burden of proof." I could retort all day but it's not going to help me, or you, so why should I waste my time? I didn't start this thread to argue with you.
I have to get up early tomorrow, goodnight to you all. =)
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 9 months, 22 days
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Why do you consistently refuse to back up any of your claims? I don't care if you don't "feel" the burden of proof, it's on you. That's how argumentation/debate works.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Jethro Tull said:
I didn't start this thread to argue with you.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 466
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Re: The Present [Re: Poid]
#9813142 - 02/17/09 07:50 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
So you say that the truth is self-evident to you but you don't know what the truth is? And you also said that the truth is the present? Quit contradicting yourself.
The truth is self-evident to me, but I'm not going to come out and say "I know what the truth is, indefinitely." There is always more to learn and I will always be seeking better ways to define and spread the truth. As of right now, "The Present," both the book and the perpetual moment, are the best ways I have found.
Quote:
Truth for humanity cannot be known because of the limit of our knowledge, by which I mean time, perspective, and that we don't have all the facts.
I agree that we don't have all the facts, but I'd say that we have enough of them, based on intuition and learning from the past. I think the truth can be known by humanity, and that it is ultimately the same for everyone. Who is to say we can't know it now, just because we haven't been able to know it before?
The truth is what can unite everyone; we are all the same, there is no reason we should look at another and think we are different from them. Separation and difference are deceptions of the mind. We are all reflections of life; we are all the same. I think the ultimate truth can unify everyone.
Quote:
No, I don't see any reason why I should think the contrary. I should now ask you what you hope to accomplish with this petty form of dialectic.
It was just a question to allow you to share your thoughts. I see a gap between mind and consciousness (life). I don't need my conscious/instinctual mind to live in the moment (although i may need it to survive), and I see it as a tool, the most useful tool there is. I can choose whether or not I want my emotions to take me over, or my thoughts to take me over. I can choose to just let life in through my senses without my mind identifying or filtering out anything. Without the conscious mind, I have no ego, no identity, I am just a spirit reflecting life. Without the conscious mind, I am life. I see the spirit as a void, a blank slate, that can either be filled with life, or filled with input from the mind. I think we all have the capability to take control of our conscious minds; to take control of our plane of existence.
I also think that there is a universal mind, the collective unconscious mind, which carries on after physical death. This is where intuition and awareness come from, which are not parts of our conscious or instinctual/animal mind. Life cannot completely end at death for the same reason energy cannot be created or destroyed, it takes on a different form with the collective unconscious mind. The collective unconscious mind is the x factor that guides evolution. This universal mind is part of life itself, and continues to become more and more aware as it learns more about existence through each individual's perception of life. We are a part of life, so we must seek out the truth through experience to fuel evolution. It is why we have the conscious mind. Perception and experience are needed for the unconscious mind to "grow." Experience is a sacrifice for the greater soul, the universal mind.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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