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 OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,389
Loc: Luxor
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 Transporter hypothetical
#9784604 - 02/12/09 11:03 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Let's say the year is 2323 and finally a tranporter is perfected. The machine is only designed to transmit known matter. The transported person looks and acts the same as before transportation.
Assuming this is all true, this would prove:
A. There is no soul.
B. The soul cannot be tricked and automatically knows where its assigned body will end up and flies there faster than the speed of light.
C. The soul IS the pattern.
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This is your drain on brugs.
Edited by OrgoneConclusion (02/12/09 02:27 PM)
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 flangenips
Batshitinsanse
Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 1,520
Loc: aotearoa 
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
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What do you mean by the soul is the pattern?
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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce
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Cameron
Too Many Words
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 4,437
Loc: Canada
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 Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: flangenips]
#9785024 - 02/12/09 12:37 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think he's talking monism. Mind-is-body-is-mind type thing.
Either way, I think a 'soul' is unnecessary and a distraction from issues of real importance.
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Silversoul
Holon
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 22,562
Loc: Mostly harmless
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I would go with C. It corresponds with Alfred North Whitehead's conception of the soul as the center of experience.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 7,376
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Silversoul]
#9785083 - 02/12/09 12:51 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's a shame no such transporter has been invented, rendering speculation about its metaphysical implications moot.
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flangenips
Batshitinsanse
Registered: 01/20/08
Posts: 1,520
Loc: aotearoa
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Lion]
#9785248 - 02/12/09 01:38 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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A.N.Whitehead does my head in when ever i read his stuff. I feel a lot of what he says is crazy-man proverbs, I hate him, but i can't be certain he's wrong.
The mentality of mankind and the language of mankind created each other. If we like to assume the rise of language as a given fact, then it is not going too far to say that the souls of men are the gift from language to mankind. The account of the sixth day should be written: He gave them speech, and they became souls
arrghhhh
I wonder what Kant would say about this transporter example.
He denies that we can understand the entry of the soul into body at conception or its relation to the body throughout life, or its exit and separate existence after death. Because all our experience is experience of ourselves as living beings - when soul and body are bound together - we cannot know what a separated soul would experience. Leibniz compared existence after death to a deep sleep or a swoon, but to investigate these matters is, Kant says, like standing before a mirror with your eyes closed to see what you look like when you are asleep
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-leibniz/#7
If we cannot know the seperate existence, only the bound-existence. then what do we have to compare to to deduce A. B. or C. So in that case i agree with what OC is saying. I feel that this hypothesis merely illustrates that it shows one of those premises might be true, however investigation into it would yield little evidence for or against the existence of the soul.
However i want to disagree with B. solely because it looks like its taking the piss. :P
Although going on what Kant was saying before that, about localized/non-localized souls. If they weren't localized then B and C could be inaccurate because it wouldn't need to travel to get to to transported body or need to transport with the body, instead its where it is (maybe another dimension) it is quantumnly entangled and its experience is immediate to the body/brain's experience. And this still keeps open the other premise of that we cannot know what a separated soul would experience.
So now i'm inclined to believe OC's "Transporter hypothetical" is incomplete and could maybe do with a D and maybe even an E option. But its pretty good, well done.
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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Let's say the year is 2323 and finally a tranporter is perfected. The machine os only designed to transmit known matter. The transported person looks and acts the same as before transportation.
Assuming this is all true, this would prove:
A. There is no soul.
B. The soul cannot be tricked and automatically knows where its assigned body will end up and flies there faster then the speed of light.
C. The soul IS the pattern.
Well, as Leibniz pointed out, a soul requires God. This is because a soul is an incorporeal property on a corporeal object, and those don't exist - unless you accept God is real. Therefore, if souls are real then it's just as likely that God is able to maintain the link between our soul and our body even when we're teleported around the universe. He's God, he can do whatever.
Occam's razor, however, will tell us that the correct answer is A.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,619
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: zouden]
#9785484 - 02/12/09 02:26 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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You are wise and wonderful.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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flangenips
Batshitinsanse
Registered: 01/20/08
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: zouden]
#9785625 - 02/12/09 02:52 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Well, as Leibniz pointed out, a soul requires God. This is because a soul is an incorporeal property on a corporeal object, and those don't exist - unless you accept God is real. Therefore, if souls are real then it's just as likely that God is able to maintain the link between our soul and our body even when we're teleported around the universe. He's God, he can do whatever.
I don't see why this would have to be the case for a non-localised soul, unless the souls are god, and thus we are all god in soul, but i doubt that can be shown by reason alone. This is the problem i have with alot of theocratic philosophy, it seems to make standalone positive claims about god with little reason and consideration for other possibilities. I've yet to be convinced that a god is necessary for all metaphysically controlled change of the physical world.
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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce
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Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: zouden]
#9785912 - 02/12/09 03:36 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Occam's razor, however, will tell us that the correct answer is A.
What is the difference between a soul and a consciousness?
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,389
Loc: Luxor
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Zanthius]
#9786001 - 02/12/09 03:47 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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There is no-el in consciousness.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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jivJaN
yes
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,054
Last seen: 2 hours, 19 minutes
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What a nice way to great a new member. 
To answer your question.. the soul is the seat of consciousness. They are basically the same , being that you are a consciousness that exists within and without a physical body.
The state you inhabit right now is a complex of the mind , body and spirit. Only its not a complex yet. There is a veiling between the mind and body and subconscious and conscious mind. Everything is conscious to a certain degree. Not everything is spirit though. Does that make sense ?
To answer the original question... And i dont mean to sound arrogant , but your hypothetical transporter IMO already exists .. and the answer is B.
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All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,389
Loc: Luxor
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: jivJaN]
#9787175 - 02/12/09 07:05 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Does that make sense ?
No. There is no evidence for a consciousness without a body.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Indigenous
Stranger
Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 814
Loc: Celestial Realm
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Option d.
Transporter emits souless zombie clones.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,389
Loc: Luxor
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Indigenous]
#9787987 - 02/12/09 09:18 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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It turns them into politicians?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Does that make sense ?
No. There is no evidence for a consciousness without a body.
There's no scientific explanation of the mechanism which allows felines to purr, but they purr anyways.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: flangenips]
#9788594 - 02/12/09 11:28 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
flangenips said:
Quote:
zouden said:
Well, as Leibniz pointed out, a soul requires God. This is because a soul is an incorporeal property on a corporeal object, and those don't exist - unless you accept God is real. Therefore, if souls are real then it's just as likely that God is able to maintain the link between our soul and our body even when we're teleported around the universe. He's God, he can do whatever.
I don't see why this would have to be the case for a non-localised soul, unless the souls are god, and thus we are all god in soul, but i doubt that can be shown by reason alone. This is the problem i have with alot of theocratic philosophy, it seems to make standalone positive claims about god with little reason and consideration for other possibilities. I've yet to be convinced that a god is necessary for all metaphysically controlled change of the physical world.
It's not that a god would be required, just that a belief in god is. Sorry, I didn't make that clear. Consider: if you don't believe in god, why on earth would you believe that we have some representation of our personality that persists after death? The link between personality (mind) and the brain (body) is irrefutable. It is obvious, then, that when we die, our mind and personality dies too. The only way it could survive would be if there was a metaphysical force.
Similarly, God is a metaphysical entity that can (supposedly) interact with the physical world. God is then similar to souls in that they share a metaphysical link with the real world. So a belief in a soul is a belief in at least the possibility of God's existence.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Poid]
#9788597 - 02/12/09 11:29 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Does that make sense ?
No. There is no evidence for a consciousness without a body.
There's no scientific explanation of the mechanism which allows felines to purr, but they purr anyways.
What does that have to do with anything?
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,539
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: zouden]
#9788678 - 02/12/09 11:51 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Going straight from the OP, we could conclude that:
the is no 'soul' whereby 'soul' donates a collection of factors that are not influenced by physical forces.
that is what soul means to most people, of course.
now if we just take 'soul' to refer to an inner aspect of a person's mind, then we could no really conclude anything other than the notion of materialism in the first place
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: zouden]
#9788703 - 02/13/09 12:01 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
What does that have to do with anything?
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
No. There is no evidence for a consciousness without a body.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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