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 Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
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Quote:
zen buddy said:
The world should not be ruled, period.
I am sure an anarchy would be nice, but that is that is not a choice. Sometimes we must make a choice between the lesser of two evils, and if intelligence and education doesn't rule the world, then money and populism will rule the world. Of course some of the people with high intelligence are immoral, but those individuals that only cares about money are always immoral.
Trust me, those people who cares only about money, and tries to control people by populism, are far more power hungry and far more corrupted in their souls, than those individuals with high intelligence and a lot of education. Power hungry people usually hunger for money, while highly educated people usually hunger for knowledge.
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Edited by Zanthius (02/12/09 11:57 AM)
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 Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,345
Last seen: 32 minutes, 31 seconds
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I got to page 6 before I couldn't read any more.
Sheesh.
All I have to add is, why?
Why must altruism be proven or disproven?
You claimed in the first post that it can be dangerous and wishful to believe it exists.
It has yet to be dangerous for me, because while I have no set belief one way or the other, I exist in a world where individuals have the capacity to help each other.
When this occurs, I have a hard time imagining someone going, on any level, 'Wow, that was very altruistic of them.'
Or 'Wow, they must have needed to feel better about themselves.'
I don't see you arguing that kindness from others doesn't exist. So why is it dangerous to believe in what form that kindness manifests?
Illusions of self are in all aspects of life, not just in the form of altruism. It has been shown that they are positive for our interactions with the world, as long as they remain at low levels.
For example: If you give a a list of positive traits to a group of individuals and ask them to rate themselves between 1 and 10 on each of the traits, and then add all of the values together and derive the mean, almost no one, if any, will be below 5. How can that possibly be? Some individuals should be lower on some scales, and higher on others, but not everyone should be above average on the whole. Everyone thinks, to some degree, that they are better than they are.
If someone is taking it to an extreme, believing they are the BEST at everything, then yes, it will start to conflict with reality, that's generally what happens. But then we're talking about something else, those internal motivations you described, and altruism is just one of many forms that they can manifest in. While I can see how altruism can be dangerous, I can also see how it can be beneficial, which leaves me believing that people should make their own minds up about altruism, rather than 'proving' or 'disproving' its existence.
Edited by Kickle (02/12/09 11:30 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
 
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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 Re: Altruism [Re: Kickle]
#9785055 - 02/12/09 12:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why must altruism be proven or disproven?
Why must anything be proven or disproved? Because it's detrimental to hold baseless beliefs, because it clouds the ways we're taking decisions, and because it's unhealthy to believe in crap that doesn't exist.
I have yet to see a circumstance in which delusion has contributed to anything good in one's life, and your example is too vague and fabricated to be taken seriously.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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Re: Altruism [Re: Zanthius]
#9785088 - 02/12/09 12:52 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zanthius said:
But maybe they can reach the same level of intelligence, if they eat a lot of magic mushrooms. 
Your posts are getting so stupid that I really think you're just making fun. If you're serious though, well then, I'm sorry. 
Quote:
You think they want to take over the world because they are power hungry, but you are mistaken.
Right, you just happen to know what all those people are thinking and what intentions they have. 
Quote:
They don't want to take over the world anymore than you want to clean your room, but they understand that if they leave the world to a democracy, the world will eventually be destroyed by humans. They see it as their obligation to take care of the world, when our democracy is destroying the world.
It sounds like these individuals are pretty fucked up, having the beliefs you're mentioning.
What I would really love to hear from you is how exactly is democracy destroying the world? As detailed as possible please.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Silversoul
Holon
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 22,562
Loc: Mostly harmless
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Your posts are getting so stupid that I really think you're just making fun. If you're serious though, well then, I'm sorry.
Now who's getting into personalisms?
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Zanthius
Ideologist
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,159
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:Your posts are getting so stupid that I really think you're just making fun. If you're serious though, well then, I'm sorry.
Sorry? You shouldn't be feeling sorry for stupid people like me! We deserve to be punished for our stupidity!
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Right, you just happen to know what all those people are thinking and what intentions they have.
I don't know anything, because I am stupid, and stupid people like me shouldn't be allowed to vote in a democracy.
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
What I would really love to hear from you is how exactly is democracy destroying the world? As detailed as possible please.
Tradege of the commons
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Edited by Zanthius (02/12/09 01:40 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Now who's getting into personalisms?
Can you locate the personalism?
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Kukaracha
Cat wannabe
Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1,554
Loc: France
Last seen: 21 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Yes, these things do come from an individual's will. They result from the wills of many individuals. The only factor responsible for the manner in which society manifests is the decisions each individual chooses to make. I'm not disputing that very real effects occur as a result of how individuals choose to interact with each other and their environment, and I think it is more than accurate to label these effects as societal effects.
However, society is only a concept to describe the interactions of individuals. Society has no will.
Quote:
My point was that there is no evidence of the individuality since it's removable - and maybe only possible in a group.
Individuality isn't removable, and the fact that the existence of one human being implies the existence of other human beings doesn't negate individuality. Without knowing specifically what you were referring to with this example of savage children, it isn't clear how you have come to the conclusion that their "individuality" was "removed". While I acknowledge that it is difficult for you to obtain the original source upon which you based your conclusion, why not just elaborate as to the understanding of the source that you took, and how the example relates to the point you were trying to make?
"Yes, these things do come from an individual's will. They result from the wills of many individuals." I would be ethnocentrist because I choose to? And what individuality do you see in ethnocentrism? It's about the norms of a group!
As for my example:
The idea of infividuality being removable would be related to psychedelic ego loss. I thought you'd make a link.
About the savage children, it was more the idea that, if human contact was interrupted, a human being would return to a more animalistic state, not being aware of his indivuduality. I don't remeber what was said about the absence of ego though. : (
I do remember that they would not cry nor laugh, and show no emotions, except sometimes fear. About not being aware of the "I", it wasn't probably anything accurate, but maybe as accurate as saying that ants don't have an "I".
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Silversoul
Holon
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 22,562
Loc: Mostly harmless
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Silversoul said:
Now who's getting into personalisms?
Can you locate the personalism?
Yes. It's in the post that I quoted. Here it is again, in case you missed it:
Quote:
Your posts are getting so stupid that I really think you're just making fun. If you're serious though, well then, I'm sorry.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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Where was the personal attack made? Or maybe you're confusing personalisms with attacking one's ideas? You're either able to show me exactly where I have made a personal reference, or you stop wasting my time. 
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,345
Last seen: 32 minutes, 31 seconds
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Why must altruism be proven or disproven?
Why must anything be proven or disproved? Because it's detrimental to hold baseless beliefs, because it clouds the ways we're taking decisions, and because it's unhealthy to believe in crap that doesn't exist.
I have yet to see a circumstance in which delusion has contributed to anything good in one's life, and your example is too vague and fabricated to be taken seriously.
What kind of an example would you like?
Taylor and Brown (1988) concluded: “The overriding implication that we draw from our analysis … is that certain biases in perception that have previously been thought of as amusing peccadillos at best and serious flaws in information processing at worst may actually be highly adaptive under many circumstances” (p. 205).
Illusions about the self—unrealistically positive self-evaluations, exaggerated perceptions of control or mastery, and unrealistic optimism—were said to be the key elements that help bring about and maintain psychological well-being despite the inaccuracy of these self-evaluations.(p. 194).
Citation
Taylor, S. E. & Brown, J. D. (1988). Illusion and well-being: A social psychological perspective on mental health. Psychological Bulletin, 103, 193-210.
Edited by Kickle (02/12/09 04:38 PM)
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Why must altruism be proven or disproven?
Why must anything be proven or disproved? Because it's detrimental to hold baseless beliefs, because it clouds the ways we're taking decisions, and because it's unhealthy to believe in crap that doesn't exist.
I have yet to see a circumstance in which delusion has contributed to anything good in one's life, and your example is too vague and fabricated to be taken seriously.
So you're positing that altruism is merely a psychological delusion? 
Even after the plenty examples you were given? Did you refuse to read what everyone posted, or what?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Bernackums
The universe will have its way.
Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: Altruism [Re: Poid]
#9786950 - 02/12/09 06:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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You guys didn't make any points. All I've seen in this thread is semantic contourtion of the first two pages.
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Let's get the fuck out of here.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Altruism [Re: Kickle]
#9786951 - 02/12/09 06:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
What kind of an example would you like?
She would like the kind that proves that altruism is merely a psychological delusion. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Bernackums
The universe will have its way.
Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: Altruism [Re: Poid]
#9786977 - 02/12/09 06:26 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's been addressed.
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Let's get the fuck out of here.
Edited by Bernackums (02/12/09 06:27 PM)
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,345
Last seen: 32 minutes, 31 seconds
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Quote:
Bernackums said:
You guys didn't make any points. All I've seen in this thread is semantic contourtion of the first two pages.
Eh?
The point was, even if altruism doesn't truly exist, it can be beneficial for humans to believe that it does.
I thought that was directly linked to the very first post in the thread.
I'm not interested in proving whether or not altruism exists, because to me, it can't be applied to the general population. Rather, what can be, is what effect that belief has on individuals.
I don't see any semantic contortion there.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Bernackums said:
It's been addressed.
What? Scientific evidence that suggests that it is merely a psychological delusion?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Altruism [Re: Kickle]
#9787102 - 02/12/09 06:51 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
I'm not interested in proving whether or not altruism exists, because to me, it can't be applied to the general population. Rather, what can be, is what effect that belief has on individuals.
That's because society, as it is, would not be able to maintain its stability if all its members were altruists; isn't that something? 
And part of the mechanism that prevents many from becoming altruistic is psychology; it conditions people (e.g. - MushroomTrip) to accept altruism as being "crazy" (i.e. - delusional).
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (02/12/09 10:48 PM)
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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"Because it's detrimental to hold baseless beliefs, because it clouds the ways we're taking decisions, and because it's unhealthy to believe in crap that doesn't exist."
Baseless beliefs?
What is your stance on woman's intuition?
"I have yet to see a circumstance in which delusion has contributed to anything good in one's life, and your example is too vague and fabricated to be taken seriously."
Define: delusion
And then, give everyone a hypothetical example where a delusion significantly detrimentally affects a person's life.
"Can you locate the personalism?"
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Your posts are getting so stupid that I really think you're just making fun. If you're serious though, well then, I'm sorry.
This is a direct personal attack on a user's ability to make serious, intellectually driven, intelligible posts; it is called a personalism.
Edited by Poid (02/12/09 07:05 PM)
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Kickle
A Growing Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 11,345
Last seen: 32 minutes, 31 seconds
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Re: Altruism [Re: Poid]
#9787156 - 02/12/09 07:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's not much different than saying your belief that delusion holds a negative connotation, makes it negative.
edit: This was to your post about psychology conditioning people to see altruism as crazy.
Edited by Kickle (02/12/09 07:03 PM)
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