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 MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
  
Registered: 12/02/05
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 Altruism 
#9756520 - 02/07/09 06:26 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why do you think that some people are decided to believe it exists, or why do you think it is real?
Personally, I think it has its roots in our need to feel loved and important. When this need, which I think is present in all of us more or less, is mixed with feelings of confusion and personal insecurity, people tend to believe, as a misunderstood measure of self-protection, that there's actually someone else besides them on this planet that could care so much about them that they are able to do acts from which they get absolutely no reward (be it psychological or material). Wishful and potentially dangerous thinking, because one might end up holding such irrational and unreal expectations about the world, that one might end up having their perception of the world crushed and their minds in terror, or even inflict pain on others, when severely confronted with reality.
Of course, I have this impression based on the fact that in my early teens I used to believe that altruism was real, along with believing in other self-destructive crap, and after a deep and honest analysis of myself made by me, I realized that these were the reasons I was holding such ridiculous beliefs. 
I'm more than interested in hearing other's opinions, both believers and non-believers. 
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
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 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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I think parents can certainly be altruistic for their children, or lovers for one another, or even (at a lesser level) friends for each other.
I also think people can be incredibly selfish in their interactions, and that this in no way invalidates their altruistic motivations at other times.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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daytripper23
?
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 Re: Altruism [Re: deCypher]
#9756628 - 02/07/09 06:48 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Altruism [Re: deCypher]
#9758828 - 02/08/09 02:46 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
I think parents can certainly be altruistic for their children, or lovers for one another, or even (at a lesser level) friends for each other.
I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you're confusing having one's best intentions regarding someone else, with altruism.
I completely agree that one's love for another can be so strong that it makes them think about the best ways in which they can help and bring happiness into their lives, but why does it have to mean that these doers of good will get absolutely no emotional reward as a result of doing that?
Are you thinking that in such situations, the parents don't have a feeling of accomplishment and happiness because they're helping their kids or giving them the best education they can think of? 
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Bernackums
The universe will have its way.
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Conversations on altruism seem to continually fall into semantical discussions about whether emotional rewards are a reward in themselves. I think they certainly do, and once we consider this I think it is impossible for altruism to exist in a human.
But the word altruism has alot more practicality if we remove emotional rewards from the equation (since they are always present because we are always doing things for ourselves), and in doing so we have made altruism a much more common act and not the precipice of good intentions that it once was.
I'm mostly just playing with the word altruism, but I also don't find it very useful for a human to believe altruism exists. It has no place in this world of self-interest, and seem like a rediculous ideal that some people hold themselves to (and as a result it may cause themselves suffering).
This doesn't satisfy me though, I have no set stance on the matter.
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zen buddy
not a buddhist
Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Why do you think that some people are decided to believe it exists, or why do you think it is real?
Personally, I think it has its roots in our need to feel loved and important. When this need, which I think is present in all of us more or less, is mixed with feelings of confusion and personal insecurity, people tend to believe, as a misunderstood measure of self-protection, that there's actually someone else besides them on this planet that could care so much about them that they are able to do acts from which they get absolutely no reward (be it psychological or material). Wishful and potentially dangerous thinking, because one might end up holding such irrational and unreal expectations about the world, that one might end up having their perception of the world crushed and their minds in terror, or even inflict pain on others, when severely confronted with reality.
Of course, I have this impression based on the fact that in my early teens I used to believe that altruism was real, along with believing in other self-destructive crap, and after a deep and honest analysis of myself made by me, I realized that these were the reasons I was holding such ridiculous beliefs.
I'm more than interested in hearing other's opinions, both believers and non-believers.
I go out of my way to help others and I live my life in such a way that I know will benefit others even if only for the reward of feeling good. Does that answer your question?
I definitely don't believe that doing good things for others means that I expect they will do the same for me. I might take the time to enlighten them to the idea that they would feel better if they were not so selfish but I love and accept them regardless. There is no reason for me to make someone's life any more miserable than it already is. If I have an impact on someone's life I want it to be a good thing and I am constantly aware of my effect on others.
I think that living a life in a way that you are not concerned for the welfare of others is far more self-destructive than misunderstanding the word 'altruism'. Personally I choose not to use the word altruism while communicating my beliefs.
I will go out of my way for you even if the only reward is that I will feel good about it and I believe it would be good if you do the same.:)
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Kukaracha
Cat wannabe
Registered: 12/18/08
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Are you thinking that in such situations, the parents don't have a feeling of accomplishment and happiness because they're helping their kids or giving them the best education they can think of?
Does any form of "altruism" in your opinion aim for such rewards?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
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Quote:
Kukaracha said:
Does any form of "altruism" in your opinion aim for such rewards?
Such rewards as in only emotional?
Like I already said, in my opinion, there's always something we get out of helping someone, even if it is feeling good about what we did.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Sure, but we don't always perform such deeds with the intent of helping ourselves first and foremost.
altruism: intention to help another because of an empathetic connection and sympathy for their state of being and needs. thinking about helping them first and foremost before yourself.
egoism: intention to help another for the result of feeling good about it.
Though this isn't to say that altruism is a completely unselfish behavior, it's just more so than egoism.
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Bernackums
The universe will have its way.
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Re: Altruism [Re: deranger]
#9760590 - 02/08/09 01:18 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Slinging definitions? This sure hasn't boiled down to another semantics arguement has it?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Are you thinking that in such situations, the parents don't have a feeling of accomplishment and happiness because they're helping their kids or giving them the best education they can think of?
Suppose a mother sacrifices herself for her child. She certainly won't be feeling anything after her death, let alone accomplishment and happiness.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Bernackums
The universe will have its way.
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Re: Altruism [Re: deCypher]
#9760749 - 02/08/09 01:52 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Are you thinking that in such situations, the parents don't have a feeling of accomplishment and happiness because they're helping their kids or giving them the best education they can think of?
Suppose a mother sacrifices herself for her child. She certainly won't be feeling anything after her death, let alone accomplishment and happiness.
Perhaps she only did out of the fear of losing the child, concerned more for the effect it has on herself rather than because she was being empathetic of the child. Our bodies make sure we care about our offspring, losing one would be very painful and we don't need to experience this to know it.
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Let's get the fuck out of here.
Edited by Bernackums (02/08/09 01:52 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Altruism [Re: deCypher]
#9760750 - 02/08/09 01:52 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, but she will feel it before.
Does the reward necessarily have to come after the deed is done? 
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Kukaracha
Cat wannabe
Registered: 12/18/08
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What I was trying to say is that having some emotional reward to an altruistic behaviour does not necessarily means altruism does not exist.
Teaching someone for example, might give you a feeling of superiority; but do you always teach people (such as kids) only to get that feeling?
The example is crappy but I hope you get what I mean.
Edited by Kukaracha (02/09/09 09:06 AM)
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Bernackums
The universe will have its way.
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I would teach kids to get money and in turn make myself happy. Or maybe we need to teach kids because the world is ending and only they can save us with their tiny hands, either way I'll find some reason that I need to teach the kids, and teach them because I want to accomplish what I've set to.
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Say a child and I are trapped and there is very little food left. I am a withering old man as it is, so I feel that the food should be given to the young because I have already lived, and this wee one has barely experienced this life at all. I give him the food, and even though I go hungry I feel the satisfaction of doing what I have convinced myself is right.
Was this altruism? Even I, the old withering man who will now surely die, do not think so. The child living longer was the principal of the act but not the reason for the act itself. Mathematically speaking, the food went to better use by being eaten by the child, since I am nearing death regardless. This calculation leaves me with what I feel to be right, and thus this was an act of righteousness that left me feeling good. Speaking without morality though, I would have been much more satisfied by simply eating the child. 
Now here is what I'm getting at: if we were to eliminate the emotional reward from the equation then yes, this would be apparent altruism (dying man gives last food to child), and I feel if this is the case then altruism does exist. In fact, if this is the case then we witness altruism all over the place every day. Altruism loses it's holy place as "the ultimate good deed, say thankya". As a result I think emotional rewards need to be considered.
The definition of altruism keeps falling apart in front of me, and I'm coming to feel it is more of an inevitable result of the human mind assuming there is an extreme for the natural dichotomy of good and evil.
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Let's get the fuck out of here.
Edited by Bernackums (02/08/09 05:22 PM)
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Registered: 12/16/04
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Loc: Texas
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I think it's easy for you to say that, considering you are in a good position. I don't know too much about you but I do know you are a professional, and you are in no danger of starving and you have a computer with internet. So yeah, you are in a good position to be making those statements.
My own view happens to coincide with yours.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Obviously you're not going to be able to find clearly defined cases where an action is either entirely selfless or entirely self-serving. In this sense I would define any action to be altruistic when it is done more for selfless reasons than by selfish ones; more a matter of degree than a black-or-white thing.
In this sense, I still think altruism exists, but mostly towards people you already love or have feelings for (be it (be it genetic, sexual, or even social). The altruistic action to a total stranger is rare indeed as compared to ripping him off.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Lakefingers
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Re: Altruism [Re: deCypher]
#9763953 - 02/08/09 11:44 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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it seems nietzsche accurately described the motivation
behind much christian altruism: passive-aggression,
hatred repressed by impotence, justifying actions to
ease mental dissonance
this doesn't cover all altruism discussed here, about
which i'm indecisive. if there are truly altruistic
acts that seems like a good thing. although, i haven't
seen one IRL
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Silversoul
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Loc: Mostly harmless
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Is wanting to do the right thing considered altruistic? I often hear altruism discussed as if it's only legitimate if there is no motive behind it.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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Quote:
Teaching someone for example, might give you a feeling of superiotity; but do you always teach people (such as kids) only to get that feeling.
I don't quite get what you're trying to say here.
Are you saying that, if the parents aren't teaching their kids about getting an emotional reward, then the act is altruist? 
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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