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OfflineDesos
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Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens
    #9543971 - 01/04/09 01:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

so in the 'where have psychadelics gotten you' thread it was argued that mystic use of entheogens should be discontinued when one 'receives the message'

the proverb 'once you get the message, hang up the phone' was used.

shamanic use of entheogens however seemed to be viewed as journeys to the spirit world as a means of accomplishing a goal.

'a mystic seeks direct connection with God. Shamans go into the spirit world to accomplish tasks'

what i find interesting about the mystic use of entheogens is the correspondance to the mythological use of the holy grail, and the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.  these are metaphors for the illusive state of enlightenment that is sought through mysticism.  now granted that there is no absolute crest of the wave, is it such a bad thing to continually use entheogens mystically as a means to further yourself?

and how does furthering yourself and a mystic use of entheogens really differ from 'accomplishing goals' that a person using entheogens shamanically might seek?


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I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.

Edited by Desos (01/04/09 02:00 PM)

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Invisiblemushroom people
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Desos]
    #9544147 - 01/04/09 02:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think a mystic acts as solitary meditator to seek a personal connection with God. I am not sure about the use of entheogens when it comes to mystics. If they used entheogens it would be to bring about a finite change in themselves.

A shaman goes into the spirit world to accomplish a task, such as find a cure for a sickness, find a herd of animals for food, ect. These tasks need to be done on a regular basis never reaching completion.

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Desos]
    #9544175 - 01/04/09 02:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The point I was bringing up in the other thread is that entheogens are used ritually in shamanic cultures, but not among mystics such as in Buddhist temples.  As I can attest, psychedelics can help start you on a mystical path, but they are not sufficient to make a serious mystic out of someone, and often they can get in the way.


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OfflineDesos
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #9544201 - 01/04/09 02:48 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i would say that i use entheogens mystically, but i guess that what i am really wondering about is whether it is healthy to continue using them for mystical purposes.

they brought me up for a while and revealed to me incredible things, but eventually i stopped receiving so many messages and now tripping is just like connecting with god.  that isn't to say though that i wont receive more messages, like i said in the other thread every time i think i might have reached the crest of the wave i get slapped in the face and lifted up higher.

i know that no one can really decide what i should do or not but myself, but it never hurts to get a second opinion.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Desos]
    #9544364 - 01/04/09 03:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well, for me, I realized that psychedelics had become a problem for me when they became an attachment.  I had told myself that I needed them to dig deeper and attain these mystical states, when in fact I was using them as a crutch.  Letting go of attachments is a major part of the progress of a mystic, and so I had to let go of this.


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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #9545101 - 01/04/09 05:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Letting go of attachments is a major part of the progress of a mystic, and so I had to let go of this.




See, the mushroom people keep telling me to let go of the world.

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InvisibleArden
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: mushroom people]
    #9546128 - 01/04/09 07:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

what i find interesting about the mystic use of entheogens is the correspondance to the mythological use of the holy grail, and the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.  these are metaphors for the illusive state of enlightenment that is sought through mysticism.




Many "enlightened" texts or people would quickly say that if you are looking for anything, grail or gold, then you will never find it.

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Arden]
    #9546159 - 01/04/09 07:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Arden said:
Many "enlightened" texts or people would quickly say that if you are looking for anything, grail or gold, then you will never find it.




Just do the practice and enlightenment will come or not.

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InvisibleArden
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: mushroom people]
    #9546232 - 01/04/09 07:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Just do the practice and enlightenment will come or not.




That's the spirit! Just don't 'do the practice' for the sake of enlightenment, then your little bitty fingers are still grasping for something. :cool:

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Arden]
    #9546801 - 01/04/09 08:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

see they never once said entheogen, and they are having a conversation, and agreeing.

in so far as shamanic use is medicinal or for healing, I think it is right minded and properly buddhistic,
but anything mystical is not buddhistic because buddhism is not about shrouding things in myst, or clinging to myst,
or making things spookier than they already are.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Desos]
    #9547190 - 01/04/09 09:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Desos said:

the proverb 'once you get the message, hang up the phone' was used.

is it such a bad thing to continually use entheogens mystically as a means to further yourself?




I never liked that "proverb".

It seems to imply that every person is an unchanging entity.
The fact that we are constantly learning and constantly changing means we can always learn more

Everytime I trip (which is no longer very often) I have a completely different experience because I am a completely different person.

So to answer your question no IMO there is nothing wrong with the continued use of entheogens to "better" yourself.


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"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."

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OfflineDesos
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: awesomebastard]
    #9547798 - 01/04/09 10:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

indeed.  to conclude that reality if finite is foolish.


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I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Desos]
    #9548487 - 01/05/09 12:12 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i think that for most of the time the mystic doesnt need the medicine or tool anymore because they see these things without them...

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Offlineigwna
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #9549288 - 01/05/09 03:38 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
The point I was bringing up in the other thread is that entheogens are used ritually in shamanic cultures, but not among mystics such as in Buddhist temples.  As I can attest, psychedelics can help start you on a mystical path, but they are not sufficient to make a serious mystic out of someone, and often they can get in the way.




Mmm, I agree with this.

The tool can only help to create, but the tool cannot guide itself.


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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OfflineDesos
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: igwna]
    #9549754 - 01/05/09 07:06 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

mmm.. i see.

i guess i can understand that.


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I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: awesomebastard]
    #9550969 - 01/05/09 12:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

awesomebastard said:
Quote:

Desos said:

the proverb 'once you get the message, hang up the phone' was used.

is it such a bad thing to continually use entheogens mystically as a means to further yourself?




I never liked that "proverb".

It seems to imply that every person is an unchanging entity.
The fact that we are constantly learning and constantly changing means we can always learn more

Everytime I trip (which is no longer very often) I have a completely different experience because I am a completely different person.

So to answer your question no IMO there is nothing wrong with the continued use of entheogens to "better" yourself.




Or, it implies there is "the" message. Ive felt like Ive seen "the" reality so many times, but it always turns out to be "a" reality. Is it just a matter of speech, I don't know. Whether its speaking of an identity like you say, or instead a reality - it certainly seems to be at least an idea of the absolute.

This is one of the only ideas of Alan watts that really frustrates me. Funny that it is the idea that get so much attention around here, considering how much he had to say.

I don't necessarily disagree, it is quite possible that I just haven't gotten the message yet, and this is naturally frustrating. I don't know though.

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: daytripper23]
    #9551081 - 01/05/09 01:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

So are they exclusive? The mystic and the Shaman?

I think there is quite possibly a bad faith in language in this dialogue.

Lets get real, is this juxtaposition not just a way of saying that a mystic does not use these tools? i.e. they are "not allowed" if you are a formally (explicitly) christian or buddhist etc. (You see, there are specific rules that apply.)

Are we just speaking of typicality and generalizations, or ostensible paths?

Sure I can be open minded to the idea, but how can I not suspect the usual bullshit?

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Arden]
    #9551096 - 01/05/09 01:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Arden said:
Quote:

Just do the practice and enlightenment will come or not.




That's the spirit! Just don't 'do the practice' for the sake of enlightenment, then your little bitty fingers are still grasping for something. :cool:




The ultimate in non-grasping is to not do any practice.


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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9551112 - 01/05/09 01:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:

The ultimate in non-grasping is to not do any practice.




Then you would be on the aversion side. You need to avoid grasping and aversion.

You are just beating a dead alien.

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: mushroom people]
    #9551155 - 01/05/09 01:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Doing a practice for no reason is just silly. Beating a dead alien is fun!


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InvisibleArden
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9551395 - 01/05/09 02:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The ultimate in non-grasping is to not do any practice.




Non-grasping doesn't translate as an aversion to feeling.

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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Arden]
    #9551417 - 01/05/09 02:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Shamans are mystics, there is a difference however with the definition being culturally seclusive.

Most mystics have no record of using drugs, non at all...shamans are quite different in that aspect.


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9551650 - 01/05/09 03:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Doing a practice for no reason is just silly. Beating a dead alien is fun!




There are other benefits to doing a practice. Maybe it is just beyond your grasp.

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: mushroom people]
    #9551758 - 01/05/09 03:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Huh? Did you read what you wrote?


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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9551804 - 01/05/09 03:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think mysticism plays a role in shamanism, but drugs come into the picture more with shamanism because many of them have a way of making the common factors in the cognition of a group much clearer. Plain mystics don't need to "work with" people, they only need to follow their own dragon. Shamans are mystics who guide others into the modalities of thought they regularly occupy, and drugs can be very useful for this.

Personally, I take drugs because I like them. I don't know if that makes me a shaman, a mystic, or a defiler of nature. :lol:


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (01/05/09 03:34 PM)

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9551819 - 01/05/09 03:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yes. I did. I guess you need an explanation broken down by sentence.

1. There are other benefits to doing a practice.

A practice is not done for no reason. Enlightenment is a possible benefit but not the only one. A calmer mind is just one of the wondrous benefits.

2. Maybe it is just beyond your grasp.

A pun insinuating that the reasons to do a practice may be beyond your comprehension.

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: mushroom people]
    #9551831 - 01/05/09 03:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

OC: Doing a practice for no reason is just silly.

MP: There are other benefits to doing a practice.


So there are other reasons than no reason? Thanks for clarifying. :rolleyes:


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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9551842 - 01/05/09 03:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well, your a shaman if you have mystical/non-ordinary experiences not on drugs or from drugs (kinda hard to determine that last part if you have taken drugs seeing that they do help changes/cause changes).

but a shaman will also have unusual experiences on drugs, Shamanism is also genetic.......

I have never heard of a mystic that took drugs, although a rumor from the keeper and it is the keeper that Nostradamus took fungus.  Although back in the day using drugs secretly was very easy, not so much today.

And it is a cultural difference, mystics are usually associated with popular religions and their visions are set to their own religion.  Yet shamans are the mystics of ancient people, primitive tribal people...until the sixties!


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: mushroom people]
    #9551852 - 01/05/09 03:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

There are other benefits to doing a practice. Maybe it is just beyond your grasp.




So instead of grasping for enlightment one grasps for calmness? Big diff.


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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9551857 - 01/05/09 03:48 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Actually, I should correct something I said earlier:  Traditional mystical communities have not been known to use psychedelics, but there has been some entheogen use, primarily cannabis.  Cannabis is used for spiritual purposes by Hindu sadhus, Sufi Muslims, and of course Rastafarians.


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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #9551870 - 01/05/09 03:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What is the drug of choice for Pastafarians?


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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9551882 - 01/05/09 03:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
OC: Doing a practice for no reason is just silly.

MP: There are other benefits to doing a practice.


So there are other reasons than no reason? Thanks for clarifying. :rolleyes:




Why did you say no reason? The posts previous to these discussed enlightenment as a possible reason.

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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #9551902 - 01/05/09 03:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Actually, I should correct something I said earlier:  Traditional mystical communities have not been known to use psychedelics, but there has been some entheogen use, primarily cannabis.  Cannabis is used for spiritual purposes by Hindu sadhus, Sufi Muslims, and of course Rastafarians.




I forgot about those guys, don't forget datura by Buddhist


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9551906 - 01/05/09 03:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
What is the drug of choice for Pastafarians?



Parmesan


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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #9551911 - 01/05/09 03:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:rimshot:


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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #9554153 - 01/05/09 09:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Right, if you do your searching, you can find clear and obvious roots in many religions. But there is no "explicit recognition", in my world at least. If it was recognized by the US government for instance; well this is something that would at least be worth talking about, right? It seems likely to me that this apparent distinction is a mask of bad faith, based upon the social struggle of formality.

Speaking from experience; I cannot bet sure of this, but I have felt that entheogens are "limited" in that they lack the truly creative power of enlightenment in themselves. In the end they are what they are, a tool from the material world, and this is what it all comes back to, living in the world. Realizing that that your shrooms may have grown on shit is a nice reminder of this.

I think the energy that I have perceived as "enlightened", is just an overflow from my ordinary existence. In other words, I am not creating this supposed enlightenment, I am perceiving my ordinary momentum only without the allusions to, or illusions of grandeur. In a positive sense, it is a finite scope that I have come highly attuned to.

So a limitation fits a limitation. Entheogenic enlightenment, as far as I have pursued it, is to just go with this flow that I have previously managed less tactfully. 

I do not know what any of your understandings of the words are, but to me, when it comes down to it "shamanic" is a broader (saner) understanding of medicine, and mysticism is acknowledging the many "maybes" of existence. To me, they are two aspects of "being in the world" (Karma, matrix).

Mytics should not get uppity, because mysticism is in its most idealistic sense, only a mystery, or a question that is not answered (Why hint at a negation, a "mist", if you can "see" fine.)

But shamanism also, is in its apparent effectiveness, very much rooted "in the world". You ingest, digest, come up, and in my case, always come down. So as demonstrated, they are not the answer to "the" question.

They do not fit together in this obvious way. From what I can see, shamanism clearly precedes the mystic in a historical span. It seems to demonstrate itself this way in society, but it seems to me that this could be the path of an individual as well. I have not gone far enough along a path to know.

Something I read today:

Quote:


In every religion there are three parts:philosophy mythology, and ritual. Philosophy of course is the essence of every religion; mythology explains and illustrates it by means of the more or less legendary lives of great men, stories and fables of wonderful things (contextualizes man on a path), and so on; ritual gives to that philosophy a still more concrete form, so that every one may grasp it - ritual is in fact concretised philosophy; this ritual is Karma; it is necessary in every religion, because most of us cannot understand abstract spiritual things until we grow much spiritually.




Swami Vivekanananda

Edited by daytripper23 (01/05/09 10:25 PM)

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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: daytripper23]
    #9554445 - 01/05/09 10:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I couldn't even read that rest, I got to that the drugs/plants aren't much in themselves and disagree.......they seem to be smarter than us, been around a lot longer at least.....well, it could just be that we tap into something more intelligent and something that has power over us and can guide.

Then again the ceremony is more important than the drug, or that is just some shit to tell white people?


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9554554 - 01/05/09 10:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This was not meant as a degradation, on an any scale - evolutionary or whatever. If we are indeed speaking of the significance of mushrooms, I believe we should acknowledge our own part in this. A mushroom is just a mushroom, of which the metaphysic of significance is not innate. We give them significance, as much as they give this to us.

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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: daytripper23]
    #9554609 - 01/05/09 10:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No, mushrooms are all very unique; everything is...the universie in my opinion is self aware.

Ever notice how different ethogens have their own spirit...like yage visions differ from cactus and cactus visions seem to inspire well, desert things but indian things...well, I dunno it is all very tricky with knowing what you took and what it came from...but things seem to associate like there is some kind of information other than our dumb know it all brains.

The earth isn't going to throw a rock at you and say I know you are here........but it does know and but drop something on you, maybe just bird shit.

Some people can communicate with animals but it's not english, it's like watching a huge cliff communicate......that beyond the subconsious we are all one being.......so by overcoming your ego/subconsious you meet where it all is going on...what is just the same intelligence through all things.....the individual is an illusion, not to be a government thing here but diversity shouldn't be confused with I


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: daytripper23]
    #9554826 - 01/05/09 11:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well I agree that mushrooms are unique, in as much as you say everything is. But then what exactly is this distinction?

Sadly I do not know cacti or yage, but I can speak similarly about two other substances I know quite well.

If I said that mushrooms are sacred, I would say LSD is sacred as well...

This tells me that how the substance came to be, does not so much influence what I think of it, although it may be a particular kind of icing on the cake. I see an absurd beauty to mushrooms growing in shit, but maybe Albert Hoffman, the inventor of LSD saw the same kind of beauty in the molecular structure of LSD. I would not doubt this. So for instance "synthetic vs natural" is apparently secondary to my opinion, because they both do the job for me.

Another contrast between mushrooms and lsd, is that in experience, mushrooms come in waves lots of the time. But this also is not significant of "entheogen" in my opinion. I would say the exact same thing of kind of visions they inspire. This character is not important.

More significantly in my opinion, we can more trace the entheogenic character of our visions to "set and setting". This is why I think it is limited to Karmic realization.

But I agree that it is not all set and setting. Substantial reality is apparently significant. I think you can certainly have "plain" meditations or rituals in good faith; but what we are all probably more aware of, is the effectively dull knife; the empty sacraments of dogma. So I agree that "what" a mushroom is, is  important. It can be the difference of communion with mushrooms, and Jesus wafers.

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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: daytripper23]
    #9554879 - 01/05/09 11:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Jesus wafers..ha, I had a dream about the Catholic communion being LSD laced once......and I was raised Catholic.  it was some time after I first took acid, I had a well, bad first trip but not really bad...so the dream confirmed something and I do believe in spirits that things influence us.....the collective consciousness that we all meld back into and kinda roam away from to well, risk being away and then coming back cause you can't really leave but you can well...kinda fight it...but fighting it just makes the fabric stronger so well, maybe we do reincarnate maybe not it is just to massive to say.

I mean if time and the shear size of the Universe is a way to measure yourself........then life is just nothing at all......nothing, but while your in it, it is everything......but really, think; you will be dead longer than anything....

Well, anyways; shrooms have been on earth WHO KNOWS HOW LONG; it is really a freaky mystery.

but look at all the chemical diversity on this planet, it is quite amazing and that plants produce such hugely diverse substances and with such intelligence.......we are stupid without studying are surroundings, we know nothing outside of that.

So I do say that we are well, not much without the life around us to influence us and well, what gave birth to us.....just seems that their is intelligence around us but it is a slow process and our life is over pretty much in a blimp.


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Mystic vs. Shamanic use of entheogens [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9554941 - 01/05/09 11:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:peace:

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