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Offlineflangenips
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: Plasmid]
    #9510587 - 12/29/08 12:46 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Its funny, plasmid, that you should mention dosing and sleep. A mate and I did that once, we had a brew of mescaline for the next day, but decided to rebrew (the third time, usually i never go this far) the flesh.

We got only a small shot out of it of nice syrupy mescaline. we took the shots and after about1 hour decided to hit the hay only to wake up about 3 or 4 hours later tripping fucking nutsacks for another 6 hours. That was my 2nd or 3rd mesc trip BTW, i've learnt a valuable lesson about underestimation and going to bed on mescaline since then.

Funnily enough if i hadn't known i'd been dosed with mescaline, i would've said shrooms,
i was roused from a fucked up dream to see my mates head floating in the doorway tell me to "get up, i'm tripping balls" as his teeth gnashed violently. That was quite a frightening experience, but i shortly snapped out of a freakish trip as i got up and moved around and began to make sense of the situation and take control of the trip.


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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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Offlineflangenips
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: flangenips]
    #9510601 - 12/29/08 12:51 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

though in saying that, i think after a while, i would rethink my diagnosis and say mescaline due to how my body is feeling. Mescaline for me has a more profound (warm yummy cosy, sometimes orgasmic in high doses) bodily feeling than shrooms.


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All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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OfflineLSDXM
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: Plasmid]
    #9510632 - 12/29/08 12:59 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

well for one, your taking a generalized statement ("you obviously must never have done either", you being a general "you") unnecessarily personally

Anyways
yeah
I've been dosed with several powders unknown and it's pretty fucking obvious what's what.

I've been handed caps of various assortments; some containing 2ct2, some containing molly, some containing dxm
It's REALLY, REALLY obvious which is which.

I've never done mescaline so I can't give any absolute statements on that, but I would imagine the whole "coming on in waves" thing would be markedly different from an anxious half hour/hour, trippy hour, and then psychedelic blow-out

Side note: are you saying that this applies to all psychedelics? or just mesc vs lsd? Because there's a HUGE trend going on of people getting DOx thinking it's lsd and realizing very quickly during the trip that it is not lsd
Before you say that you couldn't tell the difference, take into consideration the speed-like quality of DOx, which I suppose could *potentially* be noticed on acid, but I gotta say, out of all the times I've done acid, whether I felt speedy or not, I definitely never felt like I was on something meth-like.



On the difference between phenethylamines and tryptamines is that phens (every one I've ever tried, and every one I've ever heard/read about/been around for) has had an ecstasy-like body buzz, which can be mimicked on acid, but at least for me, has definitely never been present at all, whether it's both or not. Very, very specific body buzz.


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The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:

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OfflineBurstingBeing
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: LSDXM]
    #9511011 - 12/29/08 03:22 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I have expericned very high doses of lsd on many occasions, and moderate doses of mescaline and shrooms, I belive that I can tell the deference between mescaline and the others because of the intense and unique body energy and rush that comes with mescaline, even with little visual activity.

I have always expericed a different trip at moderate doses between lsd and mushrooms but, in all honesty, i cannot concluslivly say that the differences between these trips where not due to expectations, as plasmid says.

In my experience lsd seams like a total synesthetic drug where the amount of visual, audio, kinisthetic, and thought distortion are equal to each other. Where as shrooms are weighted more heavily toward thought distortion vs. distortion of the other senses, at relatively lower doses any way.

It is interesting, and it gives weight to the idea that the difference between different trips on the same substance is greater than the difference between trips between substances. One time my friend and I drew on paper what the predominent patterns we saw on lsd where. Mine are like interlocking celtic patterns with shifting primary colors, and his where composed of multicolored starburst patterns, like the lighte of stars and street lights.

When I looked at his drawing I was like WTF? I thought everyone saw the patterns that I saw and I couldent even comprehend seeing starburst patterns.

So take that for what its worth....


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and naked I am riding
on a naked horse!

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Offlineshaftmonkey
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: Mr. Cordoza]
    #9511134 - 12/29/08 05:49 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

hahaha this is a pointless thread.

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: LSDXM]
    #9511774 - 12/29/08 11:13 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
well for one, your taking a generalized statement ("you obviously must never have done either", you being a general "you") unnecessarily personally




You did say:
f you can't tell the difference, blind or not, between a phenethylamine and a tryptamine then you must never have done either.

I'm not taking it personally, I'm taking it as though it's a completely ignorant and unjustifiable opinion which places your opinion above fact.  You don't expect someone to be offended when you try making such a generalized statement?  You were dead wrong.  Whether or not this means me or anyone else, I think that it's completely ignorant and stupid.  I don't care if you were addressing Robert Mugabe, because it's still a stupid conclusion to jump to and is totally unjustifiable.

Quote:

It's REALLY, REALLY obvious which is which.




You're not a walking mass spectrometer.  You have to at least accept that you could have been wrong.  I don't accept that it was obvious just because you said so.  Do you have any evidence that you were right?  You say that it's obvious but present absolutely no evidence.  After the way you've jumped to conclusions and made blanket statements, I hope you'll understand if I find your "word" completely unreliable.

Anyway, let's just suppose that you're right and that to you, the differences between some psychedelics are completely obvious.  Why would you think that this is going to translate to everyone else?  The way you've even talked about "mimicking" the 'phenethylamine body high' with LSD seems quite presumptuous to me (I find LSD very stimulating).  Even if you can tell the difference between a lot of drugs (and I suspect that you overestimate your abilities but that aside), why would you try assuming that everyone else has your ability to discriminate between drugs?  To the point where you try to change facts around your opinion . . .?

Quote:

Side note: are you saying that this applies to all psychedelics?




I think I've said this a few times in this thread: I'm saying that I don't believe that everyone would be able to discriminate between every psychedelic drug blindly.  Maybe and maybe not.  I especially don't accept that you find some differences "obvious" and apparently expect that this would also be "obvious" to everyone else even when it's possible that you were wrong, because you could have been.  I think that the ability to discriminate between different drugs could differ between different people.

I don't think you're clear on what I think "applies" in the first place.  I'm injecting skepticism about the ability of people to discriminate between different psychedelic drugs under blind conditions.  So yes, I think that more skepticism should be applied when it comes to claims about being able to discriminate between different psychedelics.  I think that some people might be able to tell some drugs apart and may not be able to tell other drugs apart.  Am I sure which I think could be easily distinguished?  No, not entirely, because no reliable data exists (and anecdotal stories about people who believe they've gotten DOB instead of LSD don't count).  The simple fact is that there isn't much reliable human data on psychedelic drug discrimination, so all I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't be so quick to jump to the conclusion that everyone can tell the same drugs apart which you think you can tell apart.

Quote:

Because there's a HUGE trend going on of people getting DOx thinking it's lsd and realizing very quickly during the trip that it is not lsd




Yeah, who are these people?  People you've "heard" of?  People you've read of?  As far as I'm concerned, you may as well just be making these people up.  How do you know these people actually had one or another?  I think you're listening to too many rumours and taking them seriously.  I'm just curious as to how you're so sure that such a trend exists.  You heard about it, I suppose?  Or you inferred it from website posts?  If it's actually reliable information then I'd like to see it.

PCP used to be sold as "synthetic mescaline" and many people who've taken "synthetic mescaline" claim that they can tell that it's really LSD, when in fact it may be PCP.  Just because someone says that they were sold a blotter but they believe that it was DOB for example, doesn't mean that they properly identified DOB.  As far as you know, these DOx mimics could actually have been genuine LSD blotters which people have misidentified as DOxes.

Quote:

Before you say that you couldn't tell the difference, take into consideration the speed-like quality of DOx




I find LSD to be quite speedy.  Anyway, I said that I doubt that I could tell the difference.  Please pay attention because I've had to clarify this a few times.  I never said that I was absolutely sure that I couldn't tell the difference, but only that I suspect that I might not be able to.

Quote:

On the difference between phenethylamines and tryptamines is that phens (every one I've ever tried




I take it you've never tried DXM or any opiates? 
I think you simply need to accept that without physical evidence you could be wrong about what you're taking.  Arguing that you can tell drugs apart based on their effects but without further evidence is a weak argument and all it would take is a simple physical test to show that you could be in error.  On the other hand, you could be right, but the point is that you don't have a clue.


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Edited by Plasmid (12/29/08 11:33 AM)

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OfflineInnoculus
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: BurstingBeing]
    #9511800 - 12/29/08 11:18 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BurstingBeing said:
I have expericned very high doses of lsd on many occasions, and moderate doses of mescaline and shrooms, I belive that I can tell the deference between mescaline and the others because of the intense and unique body energy and rush that comes with mescaline, even with little visual activity.

I have always expericed a different trip at moderate doses between lsd and mushrooms but, in all honesty, i cannot concluslivly say that the differences between these trips where not due to expectations, as plasmid says.

In my experience lsd seams like a total synesthetic drug where the amount of visual, audio, kinisthetic, and thought distortion are equal to each other. Where as shrooms are weighted more heavily toward thought distortion vs. distortion of the other senses, at relatively lower doses any way.

It is interesting, and it gives weight to the idea that the difference between different trips on the same substance is greater than the difference between trips between substances. One time my friend and I drew on paper what the predominent patterns we saw on lsd where. Mine are like interlocking celtic patterns with shifting primary colors, and his where composed of multicolored starburst patterns, like the lighte of stars and street lights.

When I looked at his drawing I was like WTF? I thought everyone saw the patterns that I saw and I couldent even comprehend seeing starburst patterns.

So take that for what its worth....




I've discussed which visuals I was having before, but I also realized if I tweaked a certain part of my brain, I could control my open-eye visuals as well.  I was having the celtic patterns as well and I remember adding certain curves and additions to the dominant repeating shape, and eventually just changing it to something else.

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OfflineLSDXM
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: Innoculus]
    #9514403 - 12/29/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You're not a walking mass spectrometer.  You have to at least accept that you could have been wrong.  I don't accept that it was obvious just because you said so.  Do you have any evidence that you were right?  You say that it's obvious but present absolutely no evidence.  After the way you've jumped to conclusions and made blanket statements, I hope you'll understand if I find your "word" completely unreliable.




Well, my evidence is that one made me roll, one made me trip, and one made me dex. I don't know what more evidence I could possibly give you; they were all identical caps, in separate bags, and the individual who gave them to me wasn't there when I took them so I can't verify 100%, but.... I'm just sayin... the one that made me trip obviously wasn't the ecstasy, and the visuals it gave me were obviously NOT dxm visuals, and the one that made me roll was obviously not dxm and it didn't make me trip at all so it definitely wasn't 2ct2...

Quote:

I take it you've never tried DXM or any opiates? 



lol

Well, I dex'd last night, and railed four oxy's the night before


Of course I could be wrong, and I'm sure there's probably even been occasions where I took something and thought it was what it wasn't.
My point is that from the phens I've done (and by phens I mean mdma, mda, mde, 2ci, 2ct2), it was very, very different from the tryptamine experiences I've had (and by tryptamines I mean LSD, mushrooms and DMT), in every way except the shared qualities of _a body buzz_, not the same one, _visuals_, very different ones, and _headchange_, very very distinctly different ones.

Even lsd and mushrooms are completely different for me. The shit that happens to me on acid is only vaguely similar to mushrooms; every time I eat mushrooms I get a specific voice that navigates my trip for me, which has never happened to me on acid; every time I do acid I get specific memory-flashes, by which I mean the experience of zoning out for about ten seconds and coming-to with a "memory" that relates to my surroundings, it looks like a painting and takes whatever's around me and makes a grandiose Greatful Dead Art looking scene out of it; this has only happened on acid, nothing even similar has happened to me on mushrooms


I dunno, whatever. This can't really be argued very far because we're talking about my experience vs yours and there's not gonna be any concrete outcome from it.
I'm gonna continue being absolutely sure that I can tell the difference between any psychedelic I've done before and I'm sure you're going to continue thinking that that's bull shit.
Oh well.


--------------------

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: LSDXM]
    #9515513 - 12/29/08 11:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
Well, my evidence is that one made me roll, one made me trip, and one made me dex. I don't know what more evidence I could possibly give you;




You don't know what more evidence you could provide?  I suppose that's because you don't have any more evidence but the evidence you've provided is not evidence of a chemical's structure.  In fact, you've given a totally circular (and hence invalid) argument:

"I took a drug and it gave me an acid trip, thus I must have taken LSD."  <--- circular argument.

That tells you NOTHING about the structure of the substance.  Evidence that you could provide could be information about it's fluorescence under blacklight, it Rf value with TLC and so forth.  If the means to obtain actual evidence regarding the chemical properties of a drug are beyond your means, that does not entitle you to jump to conclusions.  If you are unable to actually gather real evidence about the properties of any substance you've taken, then you just need to deal with the fact that you don't actually have good evidence regarding the identity of any substance you've taken.

I really do hope that you're joking when you try saying that your "evidence" that some unknown compound you took must have been (for example) MDMA because you "rolled" when you took it.  A bioassay is not a reliable way of identifying a substance.


Quote:

Of course I could be wrong . . .




That's all I'm looking for.  If you can at least admit you're wrong, why come out with such a strong statement about others being able to tell drugs apart?

Quote:

My point is that from the phens I've done (and by phens I mean mdma, mda, mde, 2ci, 2ct2) , it was very, very different from the tryptamine experiences I've had (and by tryptamines I mean LSD, mushrooms and DMT)




Maybe when you refer to phenethylamines and tryptamines, you should try to be accurate.  It doesn't really matter if you're referring to LSD as a tryptamine because it is both a tryptamine and a phenethylamine.  I think my point about opiates being phenethylamines still stands.  You can't use structural labels in a way that ignores facts.

Quote:

Even lsd and mushrooms are completely different for me. The shit that happens to me on acid is only vaguely similar to mushrooms;




And do you happen to know that they would completely different if you took them under blind conditions?  In an extreme case, how can you really be sure that you've never had bunk mushrooms laced with another substance?  You can assume all you want, but the point is that you don't really know.  I think that you also have to assume that all the experiences which you believe were LSD could have been another substance, or at least some of those experiences could have been something else.  I think that it's something we all have to at least accept could be true, which is why it's silly to try telling other people that "if you can't tell phenethylamines from tryptamines blind or not then you have not done either."

Quote:

I dunno, whatever. This can't really be argued very far because we're talking about my experience vs yours and there's not gonna be any concrete outcome from it.




No, we're talking about what factual information you have versus what you believe.  I can't stand it when people try to bail out of arguments by playing the "its all subjective" card because the issue I'm discussing is not subjective* .  I'm saying that trying to identify what you've taken based on subjective experience isn't reliable (which is why I don't dispute what you say you experience on mushrooms or LSD).  I'm asking for concrete evidence that you're actually able to identify one substance from another.  These matters are concrete and factual and I'm trying to inject a little skepticism.  You began by making a strong, concrete statement based on no evidence whatsoever and had jumped to conclusions about people's abilities to be able to identify drugs simply be ingesting them.  I'm just saying that without evidence, the simple fact is that subjective experiences have not proven reliable as a means of identifying a substance. 

* - I'm discussing whether or not people can identify a substance just by taking it.  This is a question which is open to objective investigation.  In fact, there is a whole paradigm in psychopharmacology known as "drug discrimination" which investigates which drugs a human or animal can be trained to discriminate from each other.  I'm sure you'd be surprised about some of the drugs which people can confuse, even when they're trained to recognize pure substances and offered monetary rewards for correctly discriminating the training drug from placebo or another substance.  Many drug discrimination studies are done on the ability of alcoholics or nonalcoholics to determine blood alcohol content.  However, studies have shown that people trained to discriminate cocaine from placebo (and offered monetary rewards for appropriately identifying the training drug vs. nontraining drug) can confuse d-amphetamine and even caffeine for cocaine (for an excellent review on drug discrimination studies done on humans see Kelly et al., 2003. and references therein).

Quote:

I'm gonna continue being absolutely sure that I can tell the difference between any psychedelic I've done before and I'm sure you're going to continue thinking that that's bull shit.




I don't care what you believe and that's not what I called bullshit on.  I called bullshit on your idiotic statement where you applied your absurd belief to everyone.

By the way, you do realize that you've just contradicted yourself right?  You just said:
Of course I could be wrong, and I'm sure there's probably even been occasions where I took something and thought it was what it wasn't.

So, as far as I can see, you're saying that even though you know you could be wrong and have no evidence to back up your beliefs, you'd rather just go on being close-minded and sticking to your beliefs.

I say that you are being willfully ignorant.


Reference

Kelly TH, Stoops WW, Perry AS, Prendergast MA, Rush CR.  Clinical neuropharmacology of drugs of abuse: a comparison of drug-discrimination and subject-report measures.  Behav Cogn Neurosci Rev.  2, pp. 227 - 260.  (2003)


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OfflineInnoculus
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: Plasmid]
    #9515564 - 12/29/08 11:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It's easy to tell who's been to school when they cite references at the bottom of their post.  Heh..

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: Innoculus]
    #9515639 - 12/29/08 11:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Just found one paper about drug discrimination between amphetamine, placebo and diazepam.  The training drug was d-amphetamine, 10 mg.  The subjects were merely told that they would either get "drug A" or "drug B" and were asked which one they were given 1 hour, 3 hours and 6 hours after taking the drug.  One was a placebo and the other was the 10 mg of amphetamine.  Two distinct groups of people were noted in their ability to discriminate amphetamine from placebo: the discriminators mistook placebo for 10 mg of d-amphetamine about 10% of the time during the training phase.  The non-discriminators mistook placebo for 10 mg of d-amphetamine around 35% of the time during the training phase.  Only discriminators were asked to continue on to the test phase.  During the test phase, some of the subjects actually confused diazepam (Valium) for d-amphetamine.

Now, this study is small, but part of the study also asked people "How sure are you?" (about the drug they took) and to rate between 0 - 100%.  It's pretty interesting to think that some here are claiming that they can be absolutely sure about the identity of a substance, even though they have no evidence to back them up, yet you can find studies where trained subjects are confusing diazepam with d-amphetamine.

After having read studies like this for the first time, I realized that it doesn't matter how much people swear that they're certain and kick the walls in protest.  It's studies like these which make me roll my eyes when people talk about how they could tell that they had "clean acid" or that they can tell one drug from another with absolute reliability (not to mention those who swear they can tell strains of mushrooms apart).  I've always encouraged people making these types of claims to try drug discrimination experiments for themselves, but I've never found anyone willing to test their outrageous claims, even though they're absolutely sure of their superpowers.

Chait LD., Uhlenhuth EH., Johanson CE.  The discriminative stimulus and subjective effects of d-amphetamine in humans.  Psychopharmacology.  86, pp. 307 - 312.  (1986)

===============

Honestly Innoculus, sometimes I feel like I can't win.  Just recently a few posters told me that it would be nice if I provided a reference once in a while.  Yet, other times, I get criticized for not knowing about "the real world" and only knowing about what's in "books" (even though usually I cite journal articles: science journal articles usually describe experiments - of course these criticisms are based on wholesale ignorance because the simple fact is that science is all about experience). 


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OfflineLSDXM
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: Plasmid]
    #9516093 - 12/30/08 01:05 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
I think that you also have to assume that all the experiences which you believe were LSD could have been another substance, or at least some of those experiences could have been something else.  I think that it's something we all have to at least accept could be true




yeah
It "could" be true, if all my lsd experiences weren't exactly identical in time, sensation, distortion, etc., which they were.

Quote:

In an extreme case, how can you really be sure that you've never had bunk mushrooms laced with another substance?



Due to the fact that all of my mushroom experiences have been exactly the same, like my acid experiences, the only differences whatsoever being based on setting, thought patterns, and the music I'd been listening to and books I'd been reading at the time.
Every. single. time. I've ever eaten acid or mushrooms I've had the exact same experience, it did the exact same thing it did every other time, and the only thing that was different was that the content of my recent lifestyle had given different styles to what happened.

The same can be said for my experiences of ecstasy, mda, dxm, oxy, hydrocodone, amphetamine, cocaine, alcohol, marijuana, nutmeg, benadryl........

What allows me to tell the difference between substances is that I've had the experience, and when you experience things enough times you remember what happens on it and you are able to use that memory to label your experience.
It's not that fucking complex.
If you listen to Black Sabbath's "Sabatoge" enough times, you're going to notice if some one suddenly sneaks "Paranoid" into your player unexpectedly.

Quote:

I really do hope that you're joking when you try saying that your "evidence" that some unknown compound you took must have been (for example) MDMA because you "rolled" when you took it.  A bioassay is not a reliable way of identifying a substance.




What the fuck are you talking about?
MDMA makes you roll.
If I take a pill or amount of powder and I roll balls, odds are, it was mdma.
If I take a pill or amount of powder and I roll balls and have controllable visuals and momentary vision-flashes of static scenes that look like grainy film and it lasts for about six hours and then flashes on and off for another two, odds are it's mda
If I take a pill with an amount of powder in it and my skin starts itching like a mother fucker, walk like a retard, feel like I'm out of my body, and I close my eyes to be immersed into familiar but different and new places and interact with random people, odds are I'm robo tripping.

Really.
Seriously.
LSD does one thing.
Since I've taken LSD, I can tell when I'm on LSD
It's not "circular logic".
Saying that having an experience gives you no basis to judge what the experience is like is retard logic.
Maybe you can push psychedelic trips in directions they don't normally go, but I can't. The same exact thing happens every single time on every single chemical.


Edit: Found this in the sine wave thread
Quote:

For one, mescaline does not tend towards ego loss. Rather, it tends toward ego amplification and clarification. This is probably the biggest difference but it makes the two very different chemicals. Also, mescaline is very, very calm compared to LSD. LSD is a tryptamine, and like most tryptamines, makes the thoughts race, and contains a significant "mind fuck" aspect that can result in a very difficult but also very mind-blowing journey. Mescaline is a phenethylamine, and although not all phenethylamines are like mescaline at all, mescaline itself is characterized by a very calm and meditating mind state, with actually not a whole lot of racing thought going on at all. The mescaline state of mind is vastly easier to navigate with calm and uniform emotion, whereas the LSD mindstate (and mushroom) consists of rapidly fluctuating emotions. If one were to graph the effects, it would be a series of sharp ups and downs, whereas the mescaline graph would be more of a smooth, gradual sine wave, never getting as high as LSD might, but also never getting as low.







Also
If it makes you feel better, I'll rephrase my initial statement:
If you can't tell the difference between LSD/Mushrooms/DXM/MDMA/MDA/DOx/Mescaline, you've either not done enough of them or you, for some reason, are completely unable to differentiate one experience from another.
I'm sure you've done plenty, so with that being the case, it must suck for you not being able to identify what's going on in your own head...
Again I stress. If I take mescaline today, and then I take it five days from now, and then I take it three weeks after that, and then I take some lsd, each time some how not having any idea what it is (pretend it's not blotter and powder/cactus sludge), it's going to be obvious when all of a sudden, you're not on mescaline anymore.
After about an hour you're going to look around and be like "....Something's not right"


--------------------

The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:

Edited by LSDXM (12/30/08 01:37 AM)

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: LSDXM]
    #9517774 - 12/30/08 12:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
It "could" be true, if all my lsd experiences weren't exactly identical in time, sensation, distortion, etc., which they were.




It could be true no matter what you think.
If your experiences with what you believe is the same substance are identical then you should also have realized that this is very atypical for psychedelic experiences, so you can't assume that your exceedingly unusual reaction is going to be the norm for anyone else.

Quote:

Quote:

In an extreme case, how can you really be sure that you've never had bunk mushrooms laced with another substance?



Due to the fact that all




This could still just be a reflection of your beliefs.  As far as you know, some of those mushrooms or doses of acid actually did have other substances on them but they produced 'identical' experiences because you believed that you knew their identity.  This could be the case.  Maybe not and maybe you're right, but I don't see how you can jump to the conclusion that everyone else has experiences like yours.  Either way, the fact that the same experience followed everytime you took what you believe was the same substance isn't reliable evidence that you actually took the same substance.  Take a look at the paper about discriminative stimulus and subjective effects of amphetamine in humans: the test subjects were only told that they'd be given "drug A" or "drug B" and weren't informed when "drug C" (diazepam) was sometimes substituted for A or B.  Those people, who had been trained on drugs which had been identified (I'm talking USP grade), were still able to confuse drug C (diazepam) for drug A (amphetamine) and they were certain that they were right.  You have no evidence about the identity of the substances you've taken yet insist that you don't need it.  I can't take that seriously simply because trials done on humans have shown that people can even confuse uppers for downers and still be completely sure that they're taking the original upper.

Quote:

What allows me to tell the difference between substances is that I've had the experience




You still need to accept that it is at least within the range of possibility that you could be mistaken.  You genuinely don't know if those same experiences were due to different drugs.  I'm not telling you that this is the case, because you could be right about your identifications.  I'm telling you that you should accept the possibility that you could be wrong and that your experiences are not reliable indications of what substance you've taken.  Why not?  Precisely because many controlled experiments with pure drugs in trained volunteers offered monetary rewards can mistake completely different drugs.  I suspect that it's their belief that they're still getting the same substance which leads them to have 'identical' experiences and hence misidentify the drugs.  The same could have have happened to you or maybe not, but the point is that your experience that "these drugs produced identical experiences" has been demonstrated as an unreliable way of identifying a drug, time and time again.  You can either accept that you are not special, or you can insist that you are exempt from the kinds of mistakes that most people make and accept that your silly blanket statements about telling two drugs apart has been shown wrong over and over.

Try it yourself.  Try genuine blind tests.  Of course, you'll need to be able to gather real physical evidence about the identity of the substances you've taken in order to know whether you were right or wrong.

Quote:

and when you experience things enough times you remember what happens on it and you are able to use that memory to label your experience.




One of the interesting things in the amphetamine study is that the nondiscriminators were eliminated from the study after the testing phase.  The discriminators only confused placebo and amphetamine about 10% of the time during the training phase.  The strange thing is that during the testing phase (when diazepam was introduced), the proportion of incorrect responses increased to about 20%, despite the fact that the testing phase came after the training phase (and hence the subjects had more experience with the drug).  So, even after more experience with the drug, the subjects were found to make more errors, even though the additional substance should produce a subjective experience completely different than amphetamine.

Quote:

It's not that fucking complex.




You might think that it's as simple as this, but I don't think it is.  I ask you merely to consider the evidence which is completely inconsistent with your assertions.  Nonetheless, you don't have any evidence that you've been able to tell a substance apart from another blind, so you're making claims with no evidence whatsoever.

Quote:


What the fuck are you talking about?
MDMA makes you roll.




That's a circular argument.  That's what I'm talking about.  You may as well have just said that "taking MDMA makes you feel like you're on MDMA."

Quote:

If I take a pill or amount of powder and I roll balls, odds are, it was mdma.




And not one of the many other substances known to produce similar effects?  Not a pill without any active ingredient?  Not a pill with a different substance entirely?  You have no evidence that this is the case and again, the simple fact is that trying to identify drugs based on subjective experience has been shows to be unreliable.  Maybe you're right that you've got better than 50% or even 70% chances of identifying the drug, but you still could be wrong 10% to 20% of the time.

Also consider the fact that maybe what you think "rolling" is isn't rolling at all.  Maybe you've never had MDMA.  You even need to consider that as a possibility. 

How do you know that you were rolling?  Because I took MDMA.
How do you know that it was MDMA?  Because I was rolling.

If you can't understand how that's a circular argument and completely invalid, then I suggest you pick up a book about logic.  Your argument only begs the question: but how do you know that you had MDMA?

Quote:

Saying that having an experience gives you no basis to judge what the experience is like is retard logic.




You're wrong.  Experimental evidence is pretty fucking clear about this: subjective experience is not a basis for identifying a substance.  If you think that's retarded, then I guess humans are retarded, but the facts speak for themselves.


Quote:

If it makes you feel better, I'll rephrase my initial statement:
If you can't tell the difference between LSD/Mushrooms/DXM/MDMA/MDA/DOx/Mescaline, you've either not done enough of them or you, for some reason, are completely unable to differentiate one experience from another.




WOW!  So all you've done is added an ad hoc "or for some reason you are completely unable to differentiate."

You're still wrong and you have no evidence to support you.

Quote:

I'm sure you've done plenty, so with that being the case, it must suck for you not being able to identify what's going on in your own head...




Oh yeah, I get this one: If you can't tell the difference then you're stupid.  Why should I even bother entertaining this?

Your arguments are based on no evidence whatsoever and directly contradict findings of experiments.

Oh and I wish you would read a little more closely.  I have repeatedly said that I do see subtle differences between the effects of mescaline, LSD and psilocin.  All I said is that I doubt that I could tell them apart blindly under some conditions (dosed in my sleep, awoken during the peak and given an hour or so to identify the drug).  I have little doubt that I could tell DXM apart from LSD, mescaline or shrooms.  The only difference is that I am open-minded enough to admit that I am not entirely sure, simply because I've never tried.  There is at least another post (I think in this thread) where someone described being dosed while sleeping and awoken during the peak and said that they would probably have been confused about which substance they were on.  Anyway, my point is that if you're going to make sarcastic comments about what I think, then you should try being accurate because I've said, a bunch of times, that I notice differences between drugs.  Thanks for not listening.

Don't give me this ironic false pity which is supposed to insult my intelligence.  I really think that it's sad that you're so close minded that you can't see the huge gaps in your own logic.  Your argument is completely circular and based on no evidence.  You have no evidence and the evidence that does exist totally contradicts your assumption.  As I've pointed out before, the fact that your argument "makes sense" doesn't mean that it's right.  You need to consider all of the evidence, but you're not even providing evidence.  If you really think that you're right, then you should try to test your assertions.  Genuinely put what you believe to the test and see if your assertions stand up to the test.  That's the best I can suggest.  I would even be willing to make a bet on it.  Propose a suitable test of your assertions.  Even if you don't want to bet, what do you have to lose?  Oh right, you have your precious beliefs that you're clinging to.  Try it.  Test your ideas for yourself.  I suppose you also have your self-respect to lose, because you might find that you're as stupid as I am.  Put your fucking money where your mouth is.



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OfflineLSDXM
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: Plasmid]
    #9517958 - 12/30/08 12:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The reason I know I've taken MDMA is because I've had people use test kits on the same batches of pills I've taken, and most of the molly I've taken.
I know what rolling feels like, because I've taken pills and powders that have been tested and confirmed as MDMA
I've also had pills and powders that were tested and confirmed to be MDA

The experiences I've had with these two chemicals were VERY different. Very, very different

Having never even heard of MDA till I was told that I was going to take it, I had no assumptions about it. I wasn't even told that it was different. I was just informed that it was missing an M.
My experiences was exactly as described above.


For the sake of this discussion though, I'm going to get some powdered ketamine and tested molly, put them in identical bags, and eat half and rail the other half.

20 eBucks says I can tell the difference within two minutes of zooting my first line.

I'll even do a third bag with crushed acetaminophen for placebo



Oh, as far as mushrooms, every time I eaten them (except once) I've gotten it through one degree of separation from the grower. They were all Penis Envy cubes (except that one time, no idea what it was, it was ground and put into capsules. Tasted exactly like mushrooms, had the same exact experiences as the other times, that's my only evidence for that.
I'm not going to go down that avenue any further since you've asserted that point very clearly (although I do still maintain that I've definitely been on psilocybin every time I've eaten mushrooms)

oh, and human beings are retarded.
How often did these volunteers use drugs? Were they occasional? heavy? was this their first exposure?
Maybe people with more experience are better at telling the difference

Had these people taken both speed and valium in the past?


--------------------

The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: LSDXM]
    #9518783 - 12/30/08 03:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
The reason I know I've taken MDMA is because I've had people use test kits on the same batches of pills I've taken, and most of the molly I've taken.
I know what rolling feels like, because I've taken pills and powders that have been tested and confirmed as MDMA




I seriously doubt that there are any test kits available that can confirm MDMA.  Usually presumptive field test kits will give a positive reaction for a substance with a structural feature known to be found in the substance in question, but they are NOT diagnostic tools.  If you can point to the tests you've used, then I could easily list the other substances (including various impurities) that would also give positive reactions.  Plus, these kits can't rule out the possibility that other substances are present.

Quote:

I've also had pills and powders that were tested and confirmed to be MDA




Again, I highly doubt that.  I'd believe a test kit could confirm that MDA may have been present, but to actually confirm the identity of a substance is generally far beyond the abilities of a field test kit.  You're misunderstanding how they work.

Quote:

The experiences I've had with these two chemicals were VERY different. Very, very different




So what?  I've already gone over why I don't think this tells you much.

Quote:

For the sake of this discussion though, I'm going to get some powdered ketamine and tested molly, put them in identical bags, and eat half and rail the other half.
20 eBucks says I can tell the difference within two minutes of zooting my first line.




I'm sure you can test the difference based on the taste of those alone.  I do believe that an experienced person could tell these two substances apart, so I don't dispute that.  No bet on this one.

quote]oh, and human beings are retarded.
How often did these volunteers use drugs?




It really depends on the study.  There are a few hundred of these studies done on humans.  Some studies purposefully pick out "drug naive" people.  Other studies are only concerned with making sure that the participants do not have a history of mental illness or drug addiction.  Other studies use people who have been addicted or are addicted to drugs (usually these studies are done to test how effective antagonists of different drugs are - for example, in drug discrimination studies between opiates, one of the combos will be "opiate + narcotic antagonist" or just the narcotic antagonist and so addicts or former addicts will be used).  In the study in question the participants did not have histories of drug abuse or dependence or history of mental illness.  Not all studies choose the same types of participants, but all drug discrimination studies involve a training phase where the participants are trained to recognize the drug vs. placebo with 90% or greater frequency.  IMO, the fact that the best clinicians can hope for is 90%+ success at discriminating pure drug from placebo is quite telling in itself.


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Offlinesmokeybear
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: Plasmid]
    #9532440 - 01/02/09 02:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

how much of said drugs have you ate??

LSD: micrograms

psylocibin mushrooms:  grams

mescal (extraction) mg (cuts) inches.

i want to see how much you are eating, how many times you have ate them, how many times you have ate them in the same exact atmosphere.

if your eating all of these in the safety of your own home, in a controlled environment, then i wouldn't doubt at all that they all feel exactly the same to you, but if you go out in public and take a 1200 microgram dose your going to act different than 800mg of cactus extract in public than 14g dried mushrooms.

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Invisiblemushroom people
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: smokeybear]
    #9532519 - 01/02/09 03:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

uh oh.

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Offlineyageman
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: smokeybear]
    #9536105 - 01/03/09 02:58 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

smokeybear said:
how much of said drugs have you ate??

LSD: micrograms

psylocibin mushrooms:  grams

mescal (extraction) mg (cuts) inches.

i want to see how much you are eating, how many times you have ate them, how many times you have ate them in the same exact atmosphere.

if your eating all of these in the safety of your own home, in a controlled environment, then i wouldn't doubt at all that they all feel exactly the same to you, but if you go out in public and take a 1200 microgram dose your going to act different than 800mg of cactus extract in public than 14g dried mushrooms.




Nobody is saying that.
You are a ridiculous person.

  These drugs are so very different.
If you want to bother to compare lsd to mushrooms to mescaline then thats fine I guess.

  Try to avoid telling somone its all "just about" the same ever again(saying you cant tell the difference or that people in general cant really tell the difference).
  Thats just really bad info and it says alot about you to say the least.

You underestimate human intelligence in general.
You underestimate the potential of psychedelic drugs.
You are smarter than this I think/hope. 
You think everyone here is a piece of shit.
Im on their side though.

You should respond to my post like a good man should.
  I know you have read all my posts you cocksucker.
Love, your worst enemy
yageman.

That bullshit doesnt make sense.
Im sorry.
Its true.


--------------------
[quote]Me_Roy said:
You moron. Material is material is material.  No 'thing' fixes any situation.  If anything were so simple we would be living in a much better world.[/quote] <-----the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life.
Thanks shroomery.

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Offlineyageman
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: yageman]
    #9536109 - 01/03/09 03:02 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Plus......... to compare any of those doses is hilarious

Fucking guy doesnt know what he is saying or he doesnt know the doses.

1200 mics compared to 800 mg's of mesc?

COMPARED TO 14 GRAMS OF DRIED MUSHROOMS.

This guy is off the hook!


--------------------
[quote]Me_Roy said:
You moron. Material is material is material.  No 'thing' fixes any situation.  If anything were so simple we would be living in a much better world.[/quote] <-----the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life.
Thanks shroomery.

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: Mescaline>than LSD but also very different. [Re: smokeybear]
    #9537398 - 01/03/09 11:50 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

smokeybear said:
how much of said drugs have you ate??

LSD: micrograms




Please tell me how on fucking earth you think I can know this?

Quote:

if your eating all of these in the safety of your own home, in a controlled environment, then i wouldn't doubt at all that they all feel exactly the same to you




Your basic assumption is wrong off the bat.  The reason that I think that I might not be able to tell these drugs apart is because the experiences are highly variable.  For me, two LSD experiences from the same sheet of the same dose under identical circumstances can produce very different experiences.  These drugs are so variable for me that they overlap a lot.  They don't produce anything close to identical experiences even under essentially the same conditions.


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