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 CH HELL
Brain Sturgeon
 
Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 6,447
Loc: mars 
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 Re: morel cult thread  [Re: AcidHorse]
#9600244 - 01/13/09 10:20 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
AcidHorse said:
Yellow morels need hindered access to nutrients a barricade before they are tempted to grow sclerotia; that or the nutrient source has almost been totally used up.
That is correct, this is why you only add small amounts of nutrients at a time and only add more when growth slows. This works its not theory, if you want to continue to use jars and pick tiny sclerotia out and separate from your grains go ahead, but I highly doubt Mills is picking sclerotia out of jars.
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 AcidHorse
No Name No Slogan
Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 653
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: CH HELL]
#9604983 - 01/14/09 01:25 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
CH HELL said:
Quote:
AcidHorse said:
Yellow morels need hindered access to nutrients a barricade before they are tempted to grow sclerotia; that or the nutrient source has almost been totally used up.
That is correct, this is why you only add small amounts of nutrients at a time and only add more when growth slows. This works its not theory, if you want to continue to use jars and pick tiny sclerotia out and separate from your grains go ahead, but I highly doubt Mills is picking sclerotia out of jars.
LOL, now your the expert?
But I don't pick out teeny tiny sclerotia. That is the whole point I've made. There is a different type of sclerotia that are larger and thicker.
Look at my signature photo at the last row of photos.
That's from M. (atro)tomentosa
But I've been trying to tell everyone that it doesn't form these in sterilized substrate in jars, more than likely because of the absence of
a bacteria or another type of catalyst (another fungi?).
Don't get me wrong. Your method could work because like you are saying you should only put tiny amounts in the bag plus the bag is inorganic. You need to post pictures of this result that you are talking about if you can recreate it. Otherwise its just a chance situation.
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If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse, if you wanna ride, ride the white pony
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CH HELL
Brain Sturgeon
Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 6,447
Loc: mars
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
#9606668 - 01/14/09 10:23 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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I never claimed to be an expert I am just sharing what I have tried, I have done this seven times five out the seven I got sclerotia, the two that failed one got contaminated and the other well I set it on the kitchen counter so I could take a picture I forgot about it and my wife picked it up by the top of the bag and now its a big brown mess, I still have it I can take a picture of that. LOL
All I am trying to do is get you to tell your findings and if you said some where that you don't use jars I missed it. I welcome your advise and anyone else's so stop bitchin' and start sharin'.
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AcidHorse
No Name No Slogan
Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 653
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: CH HELL]
#9611488 - 01/14/09 11:57 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
CH HELL said:
I never claimed to be an expert I am just sharing what I have tried, I have done this seven times five out the seven I got sclerotia, the two that failed one got contaminated and the other well I set it on the kitchen counter so I could take a picture I forgot about it and my wife picked it up by the top of the bag and now its a big brown mess, I still have it I can take a picture of that. LOL
All I am trying to do is get you to tell your findings and if you said some where that you don't use jars I missed it. I welcome your advise and anyone else's so stop bitchin' and start sharin'.
If you are talking about "nutrients" such as a simple sugar or starch or something and in liquid form; those get contaminated with bad contaminates really quick. I've tried that in the past. You really need those microbes from the forest soil to keep those contaminates out.
Plus you need that "drying" part of the patent to happen so that those contaminates find it difficult to spread.
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CH HELL
Brain Sturgeon
Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 6,447
Loc: mars
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
#9611587 - 01/15/09 12:10 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
AcidHorse said:
Quote:
CH HELL said:
I never claimed to be an expert I am just sharing what I have tried, I have done this seven times five out the seven I got sclerotia, the two that failed one got contaminated and the other well I set it on the kitchen counter so I could take a picture I forgot about it and my wife picked it up by the top of the bag and now its a big brown mess, I still have it I can take a picture of that. LOL
All I am trying to do is get you to tell your findings and if you said some where that you don't use jars I missed it. I welcome your advise and anyone else's so stop bitchin' and start sharin'.
If you are talking about "nutrients" such as a simple sugar or starch or something and in liquid form; those get contaminated with bad contaminates really quick. I've tried that in the past. You really need those microbes from the forest soil to keep those contaminates out.
Plus you need that "drying" part of the patent to happen so that those contaminates find it difficult to spread.
Thanks for the advise I am leaving tomorrow for the weekend but I will try to post some pics of different Morel projects and I'll take advise from anyone.
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metalhead
GIT-R-DONE!
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
#9653552 - 01/21/09 07:05 PM (4 years, 3 months ago) |
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how's it going yall i got my morel culture cleaned up and going! transfering to soil jars as we speak! and in acid horses defence he has taught me a shitload of stuff in the past few weeks.
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noobieshroomie
Back again
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 12,769
Loc: Not Too Sure
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
#9654546 - 01/21/09 09:30 PM (4 years, 3 months ago) |
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i just got a black morel LC
what to do with it?
-noobie-
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AMU
Best Thread Ever
CapZilla said:
not sure what GE and FAE are but i should probably get some.
Citric said:
Your signature is wrong on colonization temps!
GOOD JUDGMENT COMES FROM EXPERIENCE
EXPERIENCE COMES FROM BAD JUDGMENT
ROOM TEMP 70-75 IS BEST FOR COLONIZATION
Thank you mycochef
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metalhead
GIT-R-DONE!
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read this entire thread then ask q's. it's got a basic overview of the process.
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AcidHorse
No Name No Slogan
Registered: 05/12/06
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
#9655795 - 01/22/09 12:47 AM (4 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have got cultures or grows going in mason jars but they're the ones I started last year and I've been observing what changes
happen to them. I recently realized that I may not have given them what they would have needed in the wild for proper development.
Like it has been described in the techniques for growing oysters there are bad microbes and good microbes and the purpose for
pasteurization is to kill off the bad while leaving the good microbes. The good microbes will still inhabit the substrate and keep out the rapid
establishment of bad contaminates. And the good microbes in the soil; may be one in particular, causes the morel mycelium to aggressively form sclerotia or maybe even causing a sclerotium to swell to large walnut sizes. This is what I believe sterilization in pressure cookers prevents from happening to a certain degree, which is why everyone manages to get those small pea sized sclerotia that eventually stall out after a while. And those usually form on the sides of the glass jars because there is no readily available organic material within close proximity, which may be naturally nomadic hyphae attempting to get established further out in search of more food.
If one were to experiment with trying to cultivate them indoors they should consider also using small woodland plants like dutchman's breeches or ground ivy or cleavers. Because there is a possibility of an interaction between them, bacteria, and the morels.
One should try a control experiment with pasteurized soil and small plants then one with pasteurized soil and no plants.
The soil being soil from the woods where morels are found, this way it is certain that one would get those microbes.
Preferred pasteurization temperatures should be 135°F - 140°F at least that is what I gather is best to keep trichoderma from getting
in there. For one hour, but I have seen others say it takes longer for pasteurization. Don't confuse this with 1 hour at 15 psi in a pressure cooker. That is something totally different and leads to complete sterilization.
Nutrient source should be a grain like wheat berries, rye grain or ryegrass seed.
These don't have to be pasteurized and it may be preferrable not to pasteurize them and sterilize them separately. Actually sterilization of the grass seed is necessary in order to stop them from germinating.
Soil substrate or sand substrates or mulch + sand substrates should be loose and not compact and this goes the same for the grains in the grain layer or nutrient layer.
This is what I just told another person asking.
the substrates you conjure up with mulch and soil from the woods has to "culture" a little while in a warm moist container that way the microbes build up. Then pasteurize it. Then add it to the jars with a sterilized grain layer that has a thin layer of sterilized sand or gravel on top of the grain layer. Top it off with the pasteurized substrate. Inoculate it. Fit with a filter disc and wait a week to see if good growth is happening. By that time you can tell if it took or not. That is why it is a good idea to do at least 10 or even 20 pint jars because its an 80% chance even with just spores inoculated into a PC'd mason jar. But since we are doing pasteurization I couldn't tell you the odds. The good stuff is supposed to help keep that bad stuff at bay. But the patent does mention "drying out" kills off the bad stuff that will eventually be there, thats why there is a filter disc. Drying out to below 75% soil moisture content.
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Edited by AcidHorse (01/22/09 01:26 AM)
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AcidHorse
No Name No Slogan
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
#9656014 - 01/22/09 01:23 AM (4 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do you not know how to get them to shoot their spores out? If not its based upon vapor pressure.
High humidity due to an increase in temperature. It isn't a good idea to use small morels because those usually are immature
and haven't developed fully so they won't have many spores ready to eject.
I use two panes of picture frame glass (one for the top and one for the bottom) and two wooden frames from the picture frame assemblies to create a type of greenhouse that causes the morels to eject their spores onto the glass. Then I scrape the spores off with a razor blade.
Of course its best to give the morels some time in the construct with the top off so they mature a little and are fully prepared to eject their spores. The fresh air exchange helps them to not deteriorate so quickly but as soon as it appears they've aquired a change in tone of color
its time to try and get them to sporulate.
But they can even sporulate in a refrigerator unsealed and unwrapped in the open and they will eject spores onto a styro-foam plate.
If you hold the plate at an angle in the light you'll see the yellowish build up. But its better to do this on glass its easier to scrape spores
off then with a blade.
"nobody move. I lost me bling"
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Edited by AcidHorse (01/22/09 02:43 AM)
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Chakravanti
Fire Shaman
Registered: 01/15/09
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
#9661825 - 01/22/09 10:40 PM (4 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hard to say they look a lot like mills work. I see a couple of small green leaves in the front of that tray.
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metalhead
GIT-R-DONE!
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i made four jars last week 2 with sterilized soil and grain and two with sterilized grain and unsterilized un treated soaked outdoor soil. The outdoor one is growing like crazy and already showing sign of sclerotia formation.Also in the unsterilized ones there little seedlings that sprouted. I will have pics as soon as i can get a new camera. After i remove the sclerotia what do i do i'm not shure how to inoculate the trays....
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AcidHorse
No Name No Slogan
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
#9667341 - 01/23/09 09:38 PM (4 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
metalhead said:
i made four jars last week 2 with sterilized soil and grain and two with sterilized grain and unsterilized un treated soaked outdoor soil.
When you say "unsterilized", do you mean that you pasteurized it? Or did you just use the soil without pasteurizing it?
Otherwise you'll run into more problems than you want.
Quote:
The outdoor one is growing like crazy and already showing sign of sclerotia formation.Also in the unsterilized ones there little seedlings that sprouted. I will have pics as soon as i can get a new camera. After i remove the sclerotia what do i do i'm not shure how to inoculate the trays....
Sounds like you just used the soil from outdoors without pasteurization. Not a good idea. You need to pasteurize that to kill bad stuff and that includes potential plants that would sprout.
What I had described as a strategy was:
1) a jar with the configuration of grain layer, sand layer, mulch layer : with the mulch layer pasteurized and sand + grain layers sterilized
2) a jar with the configuration of grain layer, sand layer, mulch layer : with the mulch layer pasteurized and sand + grain layers cooked (pasteurized)
3) a jar with the configuration of grain layer, sand layer, mulch layer : with the mulch layer pasteurized and sand + grain layers sterilized
and seedling plants? I don't see how that can work. But its worth a try but sclerotia need darkness to develop so that wouldn't be good for the plants. Plus jars may or may not need to be totally sealed, considering plants produce oxygen and fungi produce carbon dioxide.
the introduction of plants seems to be a last step; and only in the trays. But you never know. Introducing plants right off the bat may or may not be good.
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metalhead
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: AcidHorse]
#9668598 - 01/24/09 12:59 AM (4 years, 3 months ago) |
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i just said fuck it ad put them in unsterilized. I know it will prob contam but they are almost collonized already so mabee not. 1/2 pint jars by the way.
and what to do once the sclerotia are removed?
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metalhead
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
#9672517 - 01/24/09 08:26 PM (4 years, 3 months ago) |
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what does the tray under the tray do? and how do you spawn sclerotia to the trays?
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Edited by metalhead (01/25/09 12:43 PM)
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metalhead
GIT-R-DONE!
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
#9678033 - 01/25/09 07:29 PM (4 years, 3 months ago) |
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i think we need something to give this thread more poularity right now we only have 2-4 people really pursuing. it we need more people to have more experiments and info coming in. what can we do?
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fltdriver82
Bow to your Mushroom God
Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 1,271
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
#9678719 - 01/25/09 09:13 PM (4 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
metalhead said:
i just said fuck it ad put them in unsterilized. I know it will prob contam but they are almost collonized already so mabee not. 1/2 pint jars by the way.
and what to do once the sclerotia are removed?
I think that the sterilization of the soil to reduce contam has been the leading problem with the controlled cultivation of morels. They occur abundantly in nature but seem to be a prob. to grow in the sterile environments that people have been providing for them.
Maybe less than sterile is the key to success here. There are enzymes, microbes, and/or bacteria in the forest floor that encourage their healthy and prosperous growth. I believe that by sterilizing the growing medium, we are actually hurting them. In Iowa they grow near Elm's, why not take a five gallon bucket to the woods and find a fallen Elm, or one that looks fairly pathetic, fill your bucket with the topsoil around that area.
What I plan on trying this Spring-
My theory is going to be all natural. I will get most of my supplies all from the same place. The mushroom patch behind my aunts barn. I plan to make a tray for them out of Elm. Use the saw-dust produced by cutting the wood to mix with verm, coir, and my five gallon bucket of naturally contaminated dirt collected from the biggest group of morels that I pick. I will also try to simulate seasons for less variation from nature.
As they colonize make sure the soil stays very moist - late spring
Then allow the medium to dry out and re-hydrate a few times - Summer
Then force them into a dormant stage by refrigeration, making sure that the medium is well hydrated and insulated by dead leaves as they would do naturally - Fall and Winter
When removed from fridge -in theory- they should be ready and willing to spring from their casement and supply me with plenty of fried snacks.
Do I think this will work:
In theory yes
In reality probably not
But I am going to try and will start posting my progress as soon I start. I believe that since they only pop for a few weeks each year that they "may" benefit from a dormant growth cycle. It could be that the conditions currently being given to them are not the best conditions for them. Some people, myself included, do not do well when things are too easy for me, I will find ways to get into trouble. On the other hand when I am under pressure and given limited freedom I am able to concentrate on the task at hand, resulting in a better outcome. Why can't fungi excel under restraints, they may not grow as fast but the growth that "may" result could potentially be more beneficial. Feel free to criticize me all you want, it'll probably make you look smart when I fail. But this is my plan, duplicate nature as much as possible in a controlled setting.
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faffle
Stranger
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I ordered a culture last week, Morchella elata from sporeworks. Is this a good one to start with? I just want to grow some sclerotia to play around with, do some trial and error experimentation.
also a random question--is the guy who runs the dnp operation the only person privy to their secrets? I'm not sure how big their operation is, just wondering why the operation isn't bigger.
anyone who knows the answers let me know.
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metalhead
GIT-R-DONE!
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: faffle]
#9678952 - 01/25/09 09:46 PM (4 years, 3 months ago) |
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to fltdriver82 good luck and keep us updated!
and faffle yeah it;ll be a good one cuz it's gona be clean and like i said keep us updated and i think you are talking about garry mills i haven't really heard much proof that they are really up and running"full scale" mills is an asshole who want;s to sell the mushroom instead of the means of how to do it and is lieing about it the whole way. the pbs thing on it was a bunch of bs he just gave a bunch of flase info.
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Mycelio
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Re: morel cult thread [Re: metalhead]
#9680940 - 01/26/09 08:27 AM (4 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
metalhead said:
i think we need something to give this thread more poularity right now we only have 2-4 people really pursuing. it we need more people to have more experiments and info coming in. what can we do?
You guys should stop calling others an asshole and you should also stop fighting for your untested ideas like religious beliefs. Perhaps then more people will chime in.
Carsten
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