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OfflineTreeMoss
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Registered: 12/05/08
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LSD tartrate
    #9413876 - 12/11/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I had this for the first time two summers ago, never knew what the fuck people where talking about when speaking of acid as having a taste.

I had eaten acid quite a few times before this experience and I must say that the tartrate is VERY different.

I found the experience to be the only LSD trip that made me laugh my ass off.  The visions where more landscape images and didn't have more to do with imagination than forming art out of ordinary things (like dirt on a window).....it was not as mystical although the landscape imagery was a tad mystical, fantasy (like windmills and stuff in a well, peaceful mystical kingdom).

I do believe that the tartrate is more recreational and that the non-tartrate LSD is more powerful.....obviously the size of the molecule must change the affinity and actions on the brain.

Such as mescaline sulfate vs citrate or HCL, it must have more to do with actions than the size of the molecule affecting the dosage size...but the size affecting actions in the brain.

Im going to research personally the differences in tuning, affects of mescaline HCL, Sulfate and citrate...

I never heard of the tartrate before researching how to synthesize, I thought it was simply an impure batch with the taste since LSD is supposed to have no taste.......but its a bit like battery acid, but more tasty, slightly sour with the tartrate....which I think is in bananas and other fruits, probably wine too.

So has anyone noticed different affects with the form that a salt is in?  I know that being open to the vastly varying experiences of psychedelics can make the differences hard to determine, but I found the difference between LSD and LSD tartrate to be distinct and vast (well, as vast as LSD can be; which was very noticeable, almost enough to make them different drugs but not even close...just enough for me to think of them as such, like a difference between a pure sativa and a pure indica...they are not quite the same).


--------------------
Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

Edited by TreeMoss (12/13/08 05:00 PM)

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Invisibletravelleler
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9413979 - 12/11/08 04:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I think the suffix only has to do with which acid is used to pull the final crystal from the base/solvent as with any A/B alkaloid extraction.  HCL = salt of hydrochloric acid, sulfate= salt of sulferic acid, Citrate = salt of cirtic acid, and tartrate = salt of tartric acid.

maybe someone will come in and agree or rebut, I dont really know what I'm talking about.


--------------------




"Whales have deep thoughts"

:sun:Dreams are the fuel of the soul:sun:

:peace:

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9414509 - 12/11/08 05:53 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TreeMoss said:
I had eaten acid quite a few times before this experience and I must say that the tartrate is VERY different.




I don't think that you have a clue as to what you're talking about.  First of all, psychedelic experiences are known to be variable in the same person between trips.

Do you have ANY evidence to show that you had the tartrate salt of LSD?

Do you even know what the difference between freebase LSD and LSD tartrate is?

Do you know of ANY basis for thinking that LSD tartrate would produce a different experience than LSD maleate or freebase LSD? (other than typical variability known to be experienced with psychedelics)

You are jumping to conclusions on the basis of ZERO evidence whatsoever.

Quote:

I do believe that the tartrate is more recreational and that the non-tartrate LSD is more powerful.....obviously the size of the molecule must change the affinity and actions on the brain.




No.

Please, stop right now.  You have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:

So has anyone noticed different affects with the form that a salt is in?




Do you want to know what's wrong with your question?
Nobody here, including yourself, knows what form of salt of LSD they've ever gotten.

So, you want to defend your hypothesis?
How did you rule out any of the following alternative explanations for the variability in your experience?
1) Psychedelic experiences are known to be highly variable even in the same individual.
2) Your experience was the result of adulterated LSD.
3)  You've never actually had LSD before and this was the first time you had it and you don't know what salt you had.

Seriously, you don't have any evidence of anything and your idea about the size of the molecule makes no sense.


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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: travelleler]
    #9414544 - 12/11/08 06:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

travelleler said:
I think the suffix only has to do with which acid is used to pull the final crystal from the base/solvent as with any A/B alkaloid extraction.  HCL = salt of hydrochloric acid, sulfate= salt of sulferic acid, Citrate = salt of cirtic acid, and tartrate = salt of tartric acid.




That's correct.

Basically, LSD is a base. Add tartaric acid and it forms an acid-base salt: LSD tartrate.

The problem with the idea is that once LSD is dissolved, the tartrate could easily dissociate from LSD (which could still be protonated) and simply become associated with some other cation.  In biological fluids there are a ton of anions available, so it's totally possible that the second LSD tartrate is dissolved in blood it becomes LSD chloride or LSD phosphate.  Or LSD become converted to its free base in biological fluids.

The real problem I have with the original post is that the guy has no evidence whatsoever that he had LSD tartrate.  What on earth is he basing this on?  An acidic taste?  That doesn't mean jack shit.  Maybe it was LSD maleate.  Maybe it was LSD citrate.  Maybe it wasn't even LSD.

LSD can exist in any number of salt forms.

Hell the other explanation I forgot to ask the other poster to rule out was:
He's always gotten LSD tartrate but simply received a different polymorphic form of LSD tartrate and hence experienced difference effects due to pharmacokinetic differences between polymorphs.


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Invisibletravelleler
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: Plasmid]
    #9414565 - 12/11/08 06:03 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

simply received a different polymorphic form of LSD tartrate and hence experienced difference effects due to pharmacokinetic differences between polymorphs.




:werd:


--------------------




"Whales have deep thoughts"

:sun:Dreams are the fuel of the soul:sun:

:peace:

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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: Plasmid]
    #9414766 - 12/11/08 06:33 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Gotta love that steak tartar with onions.

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Invisibletravelleler
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9417867 - 12/12/08 12:09 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I have heard people say that different processes of manufacture results in LSD with different effects I.E. more "visual" or more "spiritual" or more "body high" etc.. but you have to understand that perceived effects of a psychedelic substance are largely subjective and will change not only from person to person but even one experience to the next in the same person.  Also, the effective dosage of LSD is so small, literally beginning at 50ug which is .00005g, that getting accurate uniform doses can be difficult resulting in different levels of experience depending on dose.  It would be easy to get a 50ug one time and have a nice body high, and then get a 500ug (.0005g) dose from the same batch or same blotter or whatever and the experience would be more visual and spiritual. :lsd:


--------------------




"Whales have deep thoughts"

:sun:Dreams are the fuel of the soul:sun:

:peace:

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Offlineislander20
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: travelleler]
    #9418064 - 12/12/08 12:40 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds like you just had an RC, sounds like a DOx

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: islander20]
    #9418155 - 12/12/08 12:50 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

WOW OP

:lol:  Where the fuck did you go to school, all of these ideas about tartrate being more powerful than freebase are 100% ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

Are you synthing the LSD?  Do you really know if it is tartrate or freebase?  Cuz from the sound of it, you are just talking out your asshole, and making claims that are not true whatsoever.


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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: islander20]
    #9419876 - 12/12/08 05:22 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

islander20 said:
Sounds like you just had an RC, sounds like a DOx




Give me a fucking break.  How did you come to that conclusion?

BTW, Cognitive Shift, he would be so completely wrong that it's kind of funny.  The added mass of the tartrate in LSD tartrate compared to just LSD means that by weight LSD tartrate would have less LSD than the same amount of the tartrate salt.

Freebase LSD should be significantly more potent, by weight, than LSD tartrate.


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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: Plasmid]
    #9424739 - 12/13/08 02:58 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Man, Harsh thread; chill out.

I KNOW it was tartrate because of the taste as was stated.  As I said, I never tasted LSD and wondered what people were talking about when they said they could.  This was the first time I could taste it and the trip was very different, I NEVER laughed on acid and this was less powerful yet power isn't comparable to differences that are simply different areas of power.

LSD tartrate is a chemical bond, therefore different; as mescaline HCL and mescaline citrate are different chemicals

I simply find a difference between lysergic acid diethylamide tartrate
and lysergic acid diethylamide

In taste and affects, perhaps it was less potent but it was also different.......perhaps simply just my experience but I don't know...as I never claimed to know.

What are benefits of tartrate vs a base?  Can base still be stored on paper and sugar cubes or in water?

I simply found it very odd when I did taste it, never before could I taste anything..........it was even noticeable with the sugar cube.  They had two drops and I ate one then later on ate another (still with good affects, it simply prolonged the first dose).

And please stay calm people, this isn't a competition in a classroom where becoming intense is a way of overcoming your own sense of urgency to be "all knowing".

If a molecule is larger that has an affect other than simply dosage size..........the tartrate adds to the molecule, small changes in size equal a large difference when the small mechanics of neurology interact.

I do believe if I had two forms of LSD, one being a tartrate and experimented time after time.......there would be a difference time after time.........same with mescaline HCL vs mescaline citrate.....time after time I would believe it to be more than simply the dosage (ie take more mescaline citrate in a dosage that would be more than mescaline HCL in comparison, taking into consideration that the HCL weighs less....more bang for the buck so to say).

I was quite objective, I never have distractions when I take a dose although I smoked pot on it which oddly is unusual.

My main reasoning for my interest is that I could taste the tartrate which was bonded to the LSD to form LSD tartrate (a larger molecule as salts are larger than their bases).  And the experience was different, more so than what I can say is from set or setting or even dosage......simply it was a trip that had unusual visuals (as mushrooms are said and known to be different in trip affects, as if the plant/substance has a spirit itself other than simply chemical attributes).

Some people also claim that crystals have power, something from the Universe in more or less quantities within the crystal matrix that is interactive information (make that want you want and take from that what you will).

Science knows a great deal yet real science, verifiable science is quite young...in it's toddler stage at this time.......we have never even seen a molecule, only through thought experiments and testing have we created images that are true and whole.

My hypothesis is that LSD tartrate interacts with the nervous system differently (ever so slightly, yet noticeable in affects) than LSD before salting.

I can't say why I never could taste acid before, it was quite clear!

And not not my first or even my sixth, I'd say somewhere above twenty and in the teens for LSD.......I never wanted to buy large quantities and know at least one person who got into trouble for thinking it as only fun and not the huge legal problems that one can have from this substance that shocked culture (no other drug other than perhaps cocaine did so much damage to those that rely on the media for their way of life).

It is also very possible that the tartrate was added more than what was required........so the taste was there enough for me to notice it....it was a very clean and comfortable trip, I ate four doses and it was somewhere between one and two of blotter.

It's is also feasible that tasting affected my mindset, very much a possibility.......made the ingestion not such a mystery wondering what was going to happen to me....or if I did anything at all and not think about it until somethings start moving around....I don't seem to get that stiff neck or that muscle thing while waiting anymore...much more relaxed than when I was 14 (damn near thirty now).

So for know, please discuss differences between base and tartrate as well as doses that had no taste vs those that have....Because honestly, if my past doses had a taste; nobody else or I had mentioned it (only doses that I never had taken).


--------------------
Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

Edited by TreeMoss (12/13/08 03:04 PM)

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9424749 - 12/13/08 03:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Dude your basing all of your assumptions (assumptions keep that in mind)on a taste.  And to link a taste with a different structure of LSD that produced different effects is a HUGE assumption based on little evidence,.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9424820 - 12/13/08 03:13 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

One trip isn't little evidence, that was all it took for Albert Hoffman to know.

And it IS a different structure.....the tartrate has BONDED!

Different salts can exhibit different dissolution properties

We KNOW that the base is different in structure than the salt (which tartaric acid is used and bonds to form LSD tartrate).

Perhaps the base and the salt move in the body at different rates, how fast a drug attaches to neurons affect the experience greatly.

Answer why I would have never noticed the taste before?

Is LSD tartrate the ONLY LSD?


--------------------
Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: TreeMoss] * 1
    #9424840 - 12/13/08 03:16 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

:facepalm:

That's all this thread deserves: :facepalm:

Quote:

TreeMoss said:
I KNOW it was tartrate because of the taste as was stated.




I hope you know how absolutely fucking retarded that is.

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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9424854 - 12/13/08 03:19 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Chemiker said:
arlenewasag13 said:
This has always stumped me...........we all know the pyramid of LSD neeedlepoint, fluff, silver, lavender etc... So my question(s) is how do you get different crystals and why are some cleaner than others?


I will attempt to answer this and dispell some of the totally ridiculous myths I have heard about LSD crystal purity.

First of all, I would like to point out that I am an x-ray crystallographer.  My who job consists of crystallizing molecules.  When I worked in organic synthesis, we used crystallization as a purification technique.  When it comes to biomacromolecules, crystallization is much more difficult and you are far more likely to come across polymorphs.

The reason that different crystal forms of the same substance can exist, even if they are of the exact same purity, has to partly do with the kinetics of nucleation and crystal growth.  Essentially, when a crystal is growing it is trying to arrange itself into a three-dimensional lattice with a minimum of energy.  Biomacromolecules are more likely to exibit different crystal forms because they can arrange themselves into lattices of similar energy in a number of different ways.  With small molecules like LSD tartrate, there are less ways that the crystal can arrange itself into a stable fashion, so it is less likely that you will run into polymorphs.

So, why do polymorphs exist?  Some crystal forms will have approximately the same energy, but sometimes crystallization occurs fast or slow.  If crysallization occurs quickly, then the crystal form which has the lowest potential energy barrier to overcome during its growth will be prefferred.  However, if crystallization occurs slowly and is reversible, then the thermodynamically most stable crystal form will be preferred.  There could then be a mix of kinetic vs. thermodynamic crystal forms in between the two extremes.

Those are not the only two factors in crystallization, even for the exact same substance.  Solvation is known to play a role in crystallization, so often solvent molecules will be hidden in the intermolecular spaces of a crystal and will show disorder (and these buggers are damn hard to find sometimes with diffraction data).  Solvation can also affect the kinetics of crystallization.  That is, with one solvent, crystal form A might be kinetically preferred with one solvent but another solvent might prefer crystal form B.

It is entirely possible to have two very different looking crystals of the same substance with essentially the same purity, just as it is entirely possible to have two similar looking crystals of the same substance with very different purity.  You can't tell just by looking!

However, even LSD is known to show crystal polymorphism.  This means that, absolutely pure LSD tartrate exists in more than one crystal form.


--------------------
Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9424868 - 12/13/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TreeMoss said:
Man, Harsh thread; chill out.

I KNOW it was tartrate because of the taste as was stated. 




If you keep jumping to conclusions, then I'm going to keep picking on you.  All the taste means is that something tasted acidic.  How do you rule out the presence of another acid like maleic acid, citric acid, sulfuric acid, phosphoric acid, etc?  You don't know you had tartrate.  You're just assuming.

Quote:

I NEVER laughed on acid and this was less powerful yet power isn't comparable to differences that are simply different areas of power.




You're still jumping to conclusions.  You have to try ruling out other explanations.  First of all, psychedelic experiences are highly variable, so you can't even rule out normal variability.  Secondly, there is simply no reason to believe that preparing LSD as the salt of tartaric acid is responsible for the fact that this was the first LSD trip which made you laugh.  That's just silly. 

Quote:

LSD tartrate is a chemical bond, therefore different;




Grow a brain!  LSD and tartaric acid are bonded IONICALLY not COVALENTLY.  Ionic bonds between acids and bases can easily dissociate in solution.  It's meaningless to talk about LSD tartrate as being "bonded" in aqueous solution because the tartrate can easily dissociate away.  The LSD is still LSD no matter what the counter ion is.  The stability of ionic bonds is only enough to hold LSD and tartrate together in solution for a fraction of a second. 

Quote:

I simply find a difference between lysergic acid diethylamide tartrate
and lysergic acid diethylamide




No, you're assuming that.

Quote:

...as I never claimed to know.




The first thing I have you quoted as saying is I KNOW it was tartrate which is false.

Quote:

What are benefits of tartrate vs a base?  Can base still be stored on paper and sugar cubes or in water?




Sure.  The fact is that LSD can exist as many acid-base salts.  You just don't seem to understand the following:
take LSD tartrate and put it in water.  What happens?
The IONIC bond between LSD and tartrate can be easily broken by the naturally occuring (though low concentration of) hydroxide ions.  Some LSD in solution will be depronated and will exist as a freebase.  However, put LSD tartrate in a solution with numerous ions and a carbonate buffer system (as exists in blood) and what happens?  The tartrate can easily be displaced by a carbonate ion or another ion.

You don't understand that there is a fundamental difference is stability between covalent and ionic bonds.  LSD tartrate only has an ionic bond between LSD and tartrate and these bonds aren't particularly stable.

Quote:

And please stay calm people . . .




I'm not upset.  If you think that you can "hear" me yelling at you, even if I motherfucking put fucking goddamn fucking swear words, guess what?  You're IMAGINING my voice.  Even if I type in all caps, that doesn't mean that I'm sitting here shaking my fist.  Ignore how you think others feel because you don't have a clue and it doesn't matter.  I'm simply irritated because you're jumping to conclusions and you clearly don't have any idea as to what you're talking about.

Quote:

If a molecule is larger that has an affect other than simply dosage size..........the tartrate adds to the molecule, small changes in size equal a large difference when the small mechanics of neurology interact.




You simply don't have any idea what you're talking about.  When LSD binds to a receptor, it very likely dissociates from the tartrate and becomes deprotonated.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if LSD is deprotonated upon entering the blood stream.  You don't seem to appreciate the fact that once you put LSD (or LSD tartrate) in your body there are thousands upon thousands of substances in your body that could react with LSD.  From a reaction as simple as displacing tartrate with phosphate to something more complex like LSD complexing with a carrier protein and being carried across the blood brain barrier, your simplistic model is just that: WAY TOO SIMPLISTIC.

Quote:

I do believe if I had two forms of LSD, one being a tartrate and experimented time after time.....




You can believe whatever you like and hell, it's possible that you're right, but you simply don't have a SHRED of evidence to support you.

Quote:

My main reasoning for my interest is that I could taste the tartrate which was bonded to the LSD to form LSD tartrate




No, you tasted something sour so maybe it was an acid.  You can't just jump to the conclusion that it was tartaric acid that you tasted.

Quote:

(a larger molecule as salts are larger than their bases).  And the experience was different, more so than what I can say is from set or setting or even dosage.....




That is really arrogant and ignorant of you.  You can't rule out the possibility that set and setting affected your experience.  That's really silly. 

Quote:

Science knows a great deal yet real science, verifiable science is quite young...in it's toddler stage at this time.......




This doesn't matter.  First of all, the "developmental" stage of science implies that you know what fully grown science looks like.  You don't.  Nobody knows when, where, how or even if science will end.  You don't know if we're steps away from a Theory of Everything or if we have a long way to go.  Either way, this rhetorical attempt at dismissing science is complete bullshit.  It doesn't exempt you from having to provide evidence for your claims and doesn't mean that your claims can't be criticised.

Quote:

we have never even seen a molecule




Please look up atomic force microscopy

None of this shit is relevant to your claim.  What are you trying to say?  That since there are still unknowns in science that you're right?  Stop making diversions.

Quote:

My hypothesis is that LSD tartrate interacts with the nervous system differently (ever so slightly, yet noticeable in affects) than LSD before salting.




Good for you.  Your hypothesis has absolutely no basis in fact.  What you propose as facts can't even be considered facts.


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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9424883 - 12/13/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TreeMoss said:
And it IS a different structure.....the tartrate has BONDED!




OMG, pay attention.

IONIC BONDS dissociate in water.  They are not particularly stable.

Quote:

Is LSD tartrate the ONLY LSD?




No, of course not.


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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9424898 - 12/13/08 03:25 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

What exactly do you think that Chemiker's post means?

All Chemiker was pointing out here is that you can't identify a substance just by looking at it.  Chemiker also pointed out that different polymorphs of the same substance can have different appearances (and as I mentioned, different pharmacological properties).


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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9424919 - 12/13/08 03:29 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I am sorry that you all feel that this thread is only worth negativity.  I felt impelled to find the difference, since there is some.

I have always felt that small differences are worthy of noting, some may not.


--------------------
Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Re: LSD tartrate [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9424929 - 12/13/08 03:29 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

There is absolutely no way that Tartaric Acid will re-bond with LSD after being stripped from Ergotamine Tartrate earlier in the reaction. What you are describing doesn't exist. You probably had DOC or some other RC. Or maybe you had regular acid and are just completely retarded. Either one is possible.


--------------------
Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

LAGM2024

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