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Offlinemaysrome
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Registered: 07/28/08
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: bomba88]
    #9284507 - 11/21/08 10:59 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bomba88 said:
I can make it spin both ways... :imspecial:




I looked at first, and it was counter clockwise, and then i came back to it, and it was clockwise...:discodance:


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Es muss sein?!

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Offlinestaedtler
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: deCypher]
    #9284515 - 11/21/08 11:00 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I am pretty certain that conscious observation is not required according to quantum mechanics... only observation is.

If you claim that consciousness is required, please point to an equation in quantum physics that explicitly deals with consciousness.




matter = consciousness

If consciousness isn't required, please tell me how an unconscious observer can tell me which way she is dancing or which way the cube is facing.

Edited by staedtler (11/21/08 11:00 AM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: staedtler]
    #9284540 - 11/21/08 11:04 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quantum physics isn't necessary to explain optical illusions like these.

I agree with you that matter probably is conscious (going along with a neutral monism or identity theory viewpoint), but this does nothing towards proving your assertion that conscious observation is required for a waveform to collapse.  :confused:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinestaedtler
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: deCypher]
    #9284552 - 11/21/08 11:06 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Cool optical illusion, but how does this have anything to do with waveform collapse?

Two dimensional figures are ambiguous to our neural perceptive systems: when filtering through an overload of sensory data in an attempt to interpret the data, our brain can give different models of reality.  No need to bring in physics when it's simply differing perceptions in the visual cortex.  :shrug:




In quantum theory, this shift in perception is also referred to as a quantum leap.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: staedtler]
    #9284565 - 11/21/08 11:08 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think you're looking for quantum mysticism, not quantum physics.

Far too many people read their own unprovable assertions and conjectures towards consciousness into a theory that isn't mystical at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mysticism


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinestaedtler
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: deCypher]
    #9284578 - 11/21/08 11:09 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quantum physics isn't necessary to explain optical illusions like these.

I agree with you that matter probably is conscious (going along with a neutral monism or identity theory viewpoint), but this does nothing towards proving your assertion that conscious observation is required for a waveform to collapse.  :confused:




Then please tell me which way she is spinning so that we can put the debate to rest! :wink:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: staedtler]
    #9284608 - 11/21/08 11:14 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The direction of spin is a purely subjective matter; simply a matter of interpreting the sensory data another way.  Nothing mystical here.

Quote:

The illusion derives from the lack of visual cues for depth- for instance her arms could be swinging either in front of her to the left or behind her to the left, and hence with her circling clockwise or anti-clockwise on either her left or right foot. She changes leg because she's facing either towards or away from us, there being no surface features on the silhouette to indicate at any point which side of her is presented: the least ambiguous positions are her profiles when she's on either side of her circle, though it's still not known whether the foreground or background leg is on the floor, and from where she moves indeterminately either on the near or far arc across to the other profile.




--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: deCypher]
    #9284702 - 11/21/08 11:32 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

What makes you think this has anything to do with quantum physics? It's just a bunch of pixels. I can tell you every time exactly where the pixels will be. There's nothing uncertain about this.

It's just an illusion that the girl is rotating at all. She could equally be just rocking back and forth. Hell for that matter, it's an illusion that that's even a girl. The only thing it is is a bunch of pixels which your brain interprets to be in the shape of a girl who is rotating in some direction.

Nothing more.

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Offlinestaedtler
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: krypto2000]
    #9285322 - 11/21/08 12:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
What makes you think this has anything to do with quantum physics? It's just a bunch of pixels. I can tell you every time exactly where the pixels will be. There's nothing uncertain about this.




Ok, in that case, which direction shall I tell my blind colleague the girl is spinning?

Quote:


It's just an illusion that the girl is rotating at all. She could equally be just rocking back and forth. Hell for that matter, it's an illusion that that's even a girl. The only thing it is is a bunch of pixels which your brain interprets to be in the shape of a girl who is rotating in some direction.

Nothing more.




So in your universe this graphic produces an observation with 4 possible outcomes:

"just a bunch of pixels"
"just an illusion"
Girl spinning clockwise
Girl spinning anti-clockwise

...and nothing more.

Have you picked one yet? :wink:

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: staedtler]
    #9285413 - 11/21/08 01:07 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It's all of those things depending on who you ask. That's not the uncertainty principle, that's fucking semantics and nothing more. What does physics have to do with this? All you're doing is spewing your rhetoric all over the place and not contributing to any form of discussion.

If I draw a line on a piece of paper to me it may just simply be a line because I haven't finished my drawing, or haven't figured out what it is yet.

When you look at it however, you could see: a line, the ground, a dead guy, a sideways l, a sideways 1. That doesn't make it those things. It's still just a line, that's what your imagination has turned it into. Please, tell me, what does this have to do with physics, quantum physics, science in any form, what's this have to do with anything? You're totally just drawing false conclusions here.

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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related (moved) [Re: staedtler]
    #9285450 - 11/21/08 01:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

This thread was moved from The Psychedelic Experience.

Reason:
doesn't really belong in this forum.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: staedtler]
    #9285466 - 11/21/08 01:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

staedtler said:
Ok, in that case, which direction shall I tell my blind colleague the girl is spinning?




Neither... because the girl isn't actually spinning.

The spin is entirely in your head.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinestaedtler
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: deCypher]
    #9285827 - 11/21/08 02:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

staedtler said:
Ok, in that case, which direction shall I tell my blind colleague the girl is spinning?




Neither... because the girl isn't actually spinning.

The spin is entirely in your head.




Ok I'll tell him there is a picture in front of him that is just a bunch of pixels.

Damn, I thought I saw a dancing girl. :frown:

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Offlinestaedtler
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: krypto2000]
    #9285938 - 11/21/08 02:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
It's all of those things depending on who you ask. That's not the uncertainty principle, that's fucking semantics and nothing more. What does physics have to do with this?




I used to think consciousness and matter were two separate things. Now, experiments showing me the very building blocks of of matter are  little superpositioned bits of energy that we can only pin down when we look.

In the big picture, this means if you can think it, it can happen, instead of if it happens, you can think it.

The academic in me is searching to tear this idea to pieces, and I want your help.  If you're frustrated though, just remind yourself that this is just theory, and you can believe whatever you want to.

Give me ANYTHING to prove me wrong.  An experiment, an equation, a hypothesis, anything to prove this wrong.  So far my rhetoric has been matched with more rhetoric.

Doesn't anyone in this forum have an open mind?  Maybe you re-visit this once you're awareness is expanded further.. I heard there's these mushrooms that do the trick! :wink:

For more info on the subject, look up Amit Goswami and Fred Alan Wolf.

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InvisibleHendostan
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: staedtler]
    #9285953 - 11/21/08 02:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

i got it! i can see it both ways! i could almost hear an audible sound in my brain when i got it to switch, like a snap. i hope i didn't blow a fuse.

i see it spinning counterclockwise by default, but if you focus at the point the legs cross over and try to see it as going behind the other leg when you think it's in front of it, your brain might switch.

that is a cool illusion :thumbup:

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OfflineD LYS3RG1C
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: deCypher]
    #9286000 - 11/21/08 02:59 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Dude when I first saw that I thought it was so crazy, then I learned how to switch her rotation on command. It's kind of tricky at first but then you eventually get the hang of it. I can make her rotate back and forth pretty rapidly.


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Complexity is intelligent, simplicity is genius.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: staedtler]
    #9286006 - 11/21/08 03:00 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

staedtler said:
Ok I'll tell him there is a picture in front of him that is just a bunch of pixels.

Damn, I thought I saw a dancing girl. :frown:




Excellent, you got it.

And as far as proving you wrong, burden of proof is on the claimant.  Until you can demonstrate where quantum mechanics explicitly states that an observer must be conscious, the matter is entirely open-ended.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: staedtler]
    #9286016 - 11/21/08 03:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

staedtler said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
It's all of those things depending on who you ask. That's not the uncertainty principle, that's fucking semantics and nothing more. What does physics have to do with this?




I used to think consciousness and matter were two separate things. Now, experiments showing me the very building blocks of of matter are  little superpositioned bits of energy that we can only pin down when we look.

In the big picture, this means if you can think it, it can happen, instead of if it happens, you can think it.

The academic in me is searching to tear this idea to pieces, and I want your help.  If you're frustrated though, just remind yourself that this is just theory, and you can believe whatever you want to.

Give me ANYTHING to prove me wrong.  An experiment, an equation, a hypothesis, anything to prove this wrong.  So far my rhetoric has been matched with more rhetoric.

Doesn't anyone in this forum have an open mind?  Maybe you re-visit this once you're awareness is expanded further.. I heard there's these mushrooms that do the trick! :wink:

For more info on the subject, look up Amit Goswami and Fred Alan Wolf.




I think you're jumping to conclusions. If this is true, then it doesn't mean if you can think it it can happen. It's just as likely that you think it because it happens.

There is no yin if there is no yang. There is no yang, if there is no yin.

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OfflineEl Zorro
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: staedtler]
    #9286098 - 11/21/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

staedtler said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

staedtler said:
Ok, in that case, which direction shall I tell my blind colleague the girl is spinning?




Neither... because the girl isn't actually spinning.

The spin is entirely in your head.





Ok I'll tell him there is a picture in front of him that is just a bunch of pixels.

Damn, I thought I saw a dancing girl. :frown:





If you really thought you saw a "real" dancing girl, then your reality which is composed of how you interpret your sensory input is very different from mine, and I would assume, most others here.

I believe most people in this discussion understand that if we did not try to interpret this illusion through our senses, then this would simply be electrical impulses moving through semiconductor switches and exciting certain chemicals that then produce varying wavelengths of light.

Then the circumstances of those electrical impulses on the quantum level would be open to interpretation by the quantum theory.

The illusion is just a trick of the optical interpretations of our minds. And most probablably due to transfer of information through the corpus callosum

To suggest that the illusion can be interpreted through quantum mechanics is absurd.

If, however, you are using the parable of the illusion to represent quantum ideas, then your presentation is valid.

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Offlinestaedtler
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Re: Freaky pic - quantum physics related [Re: krypto2000]
    #9300625 - 11/23/08 09:52 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I think you're jumping to conclusions. If this is true, then it doesn't mean if you can think it it can happen. It's just as likely that you think it because it happens.

There is no yin if there is no yang. There is no yang, if there is no yin. 




Understood.  So either that spinning girl picture is controlling my mind, or my mind is controlling that picture.  Since that is just a bunch of pixels, I think you can see why I prefer the latter! :grin:

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