The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer - Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Home | Community | Message Board

You are not signed in.
New Account

Forum Index Search Posts Best Posts Active Topics Galleries FAQ User List Calendar Chat Store Random Growery

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop for: Delicious Bacon, Microscope, Piracetam

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 [ show all ]

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer
#9243296 - 11/14/08 09:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Note: Haven't had one of these enlightening discussions in months.

S: Strives to have an internally consistent viewpoint.

B: Consistency is not very important.

S: Enjoys having his ideas challenged/questioned as it is a way to further knowledge.

B: Hates having his ideas challenged as they are writ in stone and should never be questioned as he already knows the important stuff.

S: Doesn't give a damn what you believe in until it affects him.

B: Has an overpowering urge to get you to accept his dogma and will not rest until you do.

S: Likes broccoli.

B: Hates broccoli.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (11/14/08 10:08 AM)

Post Extras:

Nexion
Seeker

Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 647
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9243331 - 11/14/08 09:35 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
S: Likes broccoli.

B: Hates broccoli.

Key point!

--------------------
Get educated, take action!

Post Extras:

WhiskeyClone
Not here

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,474
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9243375 - 11/14/08 09:46 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:

S: Strives to have an internally consistent viewpoint.

B: Consistency is not very important.

S: Enjoys having his ideas challenged/questioned as it is a way to further knowledge.

B: Hates having his ideas challenged as they are writ in stone and should never be questioned as he already knows the important stuff.

S: Doesn't give a damn what you believe in until it affects him.

B: Has an overpowering urge to get you to accept his dogma and will not rest until you do.

S: Likes broccoli.

B: Hates broccoli.

I don't agree with any of this. Skeptics can be just as dogmatic and stubborn as religious zealots. They don't necessarily like having their ideas challenged, and a lot of them hate broccoli. Most 'skeptics' are believers, IMO. They have the same burning urge to come to rest on a belief, just perhaps without as much wishful thinking. The dichotomy should be between believers and agnostics.

--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

Post Extras:

Redrawing
Psychonaut

Registered: 04/03/08
Posts: 526
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9243398 - 11/14/08 09:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

This is a gross and inaccurate generalization. Really, none of these hold true in any regard.

--------------------

I'm an insect who dreamt he was a man and loved it, but now that dream is over and the insect is awake

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9243430 - 11/14/08 09:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I agree with your post, as it technically stands, but I feel a lot is left unsaid.

Being a skeptic is better when formulating one's principles than being a believer, purely because no belief should be accepted unquestioningly. Distrust everything and anyone; only agree to something if it's been logically verified or if you've experienced it yourself.

At the same time, living one's life is impossible as a die-hard skeptic; only when you have accepted a few beliefs as your foundation can you pragmatically accomplish anything. I presume you believe that you exist. I also presume you believe that you're breathing air right now, that you're typing on a computer right now, and that other people exist.

And you tried to lump yourself into the skeptic category... for shame. :nono:

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Nexion]
#9243442 - 11/14/08 09:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Nexion said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
S: Likes broccoli.

B: Hates broccoli.

Key point!

Broccoli makes you really logical. Yum!

--------------------

“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker

"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Redrawing]
#9243448 - 11/14/08 09:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Redrawing said:
This is a gross and inaccurate generalization. Really, none of these hold true in any regard.

Stick around and see for yourself.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Redrawing]
#9243452 - 11/14/08 09:59 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I am going to guess that you and WC hate broccoli.

Quote:

Really, none of these hold true in any regard.

Oh, really? Who is more likely to get banned even when following the rules: a fundamentalist on a skeptic message board or a skeptic on a fundamentalist message board?

How many skeptics have accosted you in the airport or knocked on your door with a dogmatic pamphlet?

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9243465 - 11/14/08 10:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How many skeptics have accosted you in the airport or knocked on your door with a dogmatic pamphlet?

How many anti-believer, pro-skeptic rants from OC have visually assaulted my eyeballs upon entering P&S?

Well, at least you're evening out the score. :thumbup:

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9243492 - 11/14/08 10:05 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

He's trying to save you dude. Show some appreciation.

Post Extras:

Recondicom
Power of four

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9243505 - 11/14/08 10:08 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

B: Love and Faith are both passions. They release known/unknown chemicals in the brain.
S: They need

B: Super inflated.
S: They blow.

B: Actions are subject to extremes (realistic moral or the “rules”). The enforcing releases more chemicals.
S: It is a maybe or a probably not.

B: We are it.
S: Probably not. I can show you proof.

Note: S is not to be confused with Socrates. “ I know that I know nothing” When I was a young man I went to the oracle at Delphi… and now… @3$556&* Hey… what were Socrates last words?

--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Recondicom]
#9243519 - 11/14/08 10:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

They release known/unknown chemicals in the brain.

Now how would you know they release "unknown" chemicals in the brain unless you are a true believer? :monkeydance:

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Recondicom]
#9243537 - 11/14/08 10:13 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I know nothing! No-thing!

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

Recondicom
Power of four

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9243552 - 11/14/08 10:18 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I would answer with the X-files. But...It is classified.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Recondicom]
#9243573 - 11/14/08 10:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

"The truth is out there". Go deep.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9243589 - 11/14/08 10:25 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Marianas Trench? Already been to Roswell...

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

The Chronic

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,041

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9243729 - 11/14/08 10:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Nexion said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
S: Likes broccoli.

B: Hates broccoli.

Key point!

Broccoli makes you really logical. Yum!

I eat a big bowl of brocoli everyday, theres that theory out the window...

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9243732 - 11/14/08 10:51 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Try Marilyn Chambers.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: The Chronic]
#9243740 - 11/14/08 10:52 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I eat a big bowl of brocoli everyday, theres that theory out the window...

It has to be organically grown.. :tongue:

Post Extras:

The Chronic

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,041

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9243776 - 11/14/08 10:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry to be so pedantic but i only eat organic veg, apart from the pickles in my bacon double cheeseburger

I think being skeptical is good if you really still have the urge to discover truth, but if you dismiss everything as mystical new age nonsense then your just as ignorant as people who blindly believe in it, your still stuck in a mind state thats rigid & unopen to new knowledge, we are always learning so open minded scepticism is good, but closed minded scepticism is the most ignorant imo

The fact is that new knowledge comes in from the unknown, so if your not willing to explore the unknown then your being ignorant

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"

Post Extras:

hoodbran
Dosser

Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 1,322
Loc: Phloston Paradise
Last seen: 14 minutes, 18 seconds

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9243797 - 11/14/08 11:02 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think any belief we believe has to have a personal ramification, so therefore a skeptic is one who doesnt believe everything, including lies about oneself that limit us by belief... a skeptic is one who chooses not to believe, even the lies about themself. it is possible to just 'know truth' without justifying it. 'believers' in the word, for example should actually be called skeptics.

--------------------
Not all drugs are good, Some are great.

Post Extras:

The Chronic

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,041

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: hoodbran]
#9243817 - 11/14/08 11:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If a sceptic was really not to belive in any mental concept he would have total clarity & universal vision

Theres a huge difference between scepticism & cynicism but usually a 'sceptic' is actually just cynical & doesnt actually care about whats true...

Post Extras:

zannennagara
Found in Space

Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 424

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9243929 - 11/14/08 11:29 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
S: Strives to have an internally consistent viewpoint.

B: Consistency is not very important.

The focus of consistency is different. A believer has the utmost internally consistent viewpoint, that of confirming the belief system, conforming the external world to the belief with possibly inconsistent methods. A skeptic makes the viewpoint internally consistent by conforming the external world to the apparent best consensus beliefs - note that to label oneself "skeptic" implies that one believes, in all cases, in disbelief, rather than leaving oneself open to possibilities, although I assume you use skeptic to mean leaving oneself free of dogmatic restrictions.

Quote:

S: Enjoys having his ideas challenged/questioned as it is a way to further knowledge.

B: Hates having his ideas challenged as they are writ in stone and should never be questioned as he already knows the important stuff.

Many skeptics hate having their ideas challenged, which is why so many become active and vocal skeptics. Most do not further knowledge in responding to believers but rather bolster their own, and dismissing the beliefs as idiotic delusions implies "already knowing the important stuff." I think the great challenge for a skeptic is to metaphorically incorporate the belief within a scientific context.

Quote:

S: Doesn't give a damn what you believe in until it affects him.

B: Has an overpowering urge to get you to accept his dogma and will not rest until you do.

I think critical thinking and skepticism is something most skeptics actively encourage, discontent with the enormous ranks of influential believers, wanting schools not to teach religion along science and so on before these students' beliefs affect anyone else.

Quote:

S: Likes broccoli.

B: Hates broccoli.

A skeptic would doubt any health benefits of broccoli until scientifically proven that the positive impact of broccoli is not a placebo and would consider its "good taste" as mental construction of health-crazed believers, whereas the believer accepts the dictates of paternalistic overlords and overcomes the disgust in his youth via conformity to a gustatory belief paradigm!

(Or he uses sauce, which is cheating.)

Is there so much difference between these poles? It seems the believer is critically skeptical of beliefs that contradict his community's consensus while the skeptic ridicules explanations that contradict his community's consensus.

--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9244394 - 11/14/08 01:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
S: Likes broccoli.

B: Hates broccoli.

I believe in skepticism, but I like broccoli :confused:

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: The Chronic]
#9245040 - 11/14/08 03:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Sorry to be so pedantic but i only eat organic veg, apart from the pickles in my bacon double cheeseburger

I think being skeptical is good if you really still have the urge to discover truth, but if you dismiss everything as mystical new age nonsense then your just as ignorant as people who blindly believe in it, your still stuck in a mind state thats rigid & unopen to new knowledge, we are always learning so open minded scepticism is good, but closed minded scepticism is the most ignorant imo

The fact is that new knowledge comes in from the unknown, so if your not willing to explore the unknown then your being ignorant

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"

Oh I'm wide open and have been for thirty five years. Yes, still waiting and still open. :shrug:

Post Extras:

BrainChemistry
Captain Obvious

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 3,655
Loc: Mountains of N. America

Last seen: 3 months, 7 days

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9245106 - 11/14/08 03:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I believe I know nothing, and I'm skeptical of all that I know.

--------------------
Word to your mom.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BrainChemistry]
#9245118 - 11/14/08 03:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds kind of contradictory. :monkeydance:

Post Extras:

BrainChemistry
Captain Obvious

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 3,655
Loc: Mountains of N. America

Last seen: 3 months, 7 days

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9245147 - 11/14/08 03:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe me being alive is a contradiction then....

--------------------
Word to your mom.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BrainChemistry]
#9245197 - 11/14/08 03:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

How so?

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
#9245557 - 11/14/08 05:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by Veritas

Reason for deletion: Please relate humorous insults via PM.

Post Extras:

Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer *DELETED* [Re: deranger]
#9245646 - 11/14/08 05:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by Veritas

Reason for deletion: Please relate humorous insults via PM.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer *DELETED* [Re: deranger]
#9245964 - 11/14/08 06:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

wow... my post was not intended to be an insult. it was intended to be a joke. wtf?

but thanks Veritas, for taking it the completely wrong way.

:crazy2:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer *DELETED* [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9245996 - 11/14/08 06:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Post deleted by Veritas<p>Reason for deletion: Please relate humorous insults via PM.

Give me a break... Veritas you completely misinterpreted this whole discussion.

Oweyer, were we intending to insult Icelander?

Post Extras:

mofo
Hobby Jingoist

Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Nexion]
#9245998 - 11/14/08 06:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Nexion said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
S: Likes broccoli.

B: Hates broccoli.

Key point!

I hate broccoli, yet I found a way to consume vast amounts of it by disguising the taste. Where does that leave me?

Post Extras:

Ginseng1
Elegant Universe

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 3,307
Last seen: 6 days, 9 hours

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: mofo]
#9246045 - 11/14/08 07:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

S: Likes to poop standing up. They are skeptical of the germs. The germs.
:glittershitz:

--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: mofo]
#9246058 - 11/14/08 07:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
Quote:

Nexion said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
S: Likes broccoli.

B: Hates broccoli.

Key point!

I hate broccoli, yet I found a way to consume vast amounts of it by disguising the taste. Where does that leave me?

as a skeptiever

Post Extras:

WhiskeyClone
Not here

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,474
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9246061 - 11/14/08 07:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Hey, close those bold and italic tags, will ya? It's getting out of control

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#9246066 - 11/14/08 07:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

so you want me to be unoriginal now? :crankey:

Post Extras:

mofo
Hobby Jingoist

Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#9246096 - 11/14/08 07:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

sorry, I get horribly lazy sometimes

Post Extras:

zouden
Neuroscientist

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: The Chronic]
#9246217 - 11/14/08 07:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
I think being skeptical is good if you really still have the urge to discover truth, but if you dismiss everything as mystical new age nonsense then your just as ignorant as people who blindly believe in it, your still stuck in a mind state thats rigid & unopen to new knowledge, we are always learning so open minded scepticism is good, but closed minded scepticism is the most ignorant imo

The fact is that new knowledge comes in from the unknown, so if your not willing to explore the unknown then your being ignorant

Agreed, but I dislike it when people claim that skeptics have a closed mind (not saying that you're claiming that), that they aren't open to new ideas... but I'm exposed to new ideas all the time, particularly in science, and I love every bit of it. The believers tend to ignore that when making their "closed-minded" claims. Just because I think their beliefs are unfounded doesn't mean I'm closed minded! It's quite disingenuous to say so, IMHO.

--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see

Post Extras:

Cervantes
Devil's Advocate

Registered: 09/23/03
Posts: 13,387
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill

Last seen: 7 hours, 8 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9246545 - 11/14/08 08:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

mofo said:
Quote:

Nexion said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
S: Likes broccoli.

B: Hates broccoli.

Key point!

I hate broccoli, yet I found a way to consume vast amounts of it by disguising the taste. Where does that leave me?

as a skeptiever

On this point, I agree with George Bush #1...

I hate broccoli.

--------------------
I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Cervantes]
#9246688 - 11/14/08 09:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I like my greens.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9246714 - 11/14/08 09:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You're one of 'us'. :hug:

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9246746 - 11/14/08 09:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

for now... at least.

just need to keep dosing high, and everything should be fly.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9246764 - 11/14/08 09:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Tower to Sky Pilot, you are cleared to 50,000 feet.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9246863 - 11/14/08 09:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Post Extras:

Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer *DELETED* [Re: deranger]
#9246877 - 11/14/08 09:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Oweyer, were we intending to insult Icelander?

Not I, but I can see how it could be taken that way I guess. Oh well. :heart:

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer *DELETED* [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9246892 - 11/14/08 09:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

As intent is hidden, Mod V deletes almost all personal comments. Don't take it personally.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer *DELETED* [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9246912 - 11/14/08 10:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Not I, but I can see how it could be taken that way I guess.

i can't make out what your saying with my beer goggles.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer *DELETED* [Re: deranger]
#9246922 - 11/14/08 10:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

A mime is a terrible thing to waste.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer *DELETED* [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9246975 - 11/14/08 10:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

seriousmi

Post Extras:

mushbaby
lovechild

Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,594
Loc: in the woods

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9248478 - 11/15/08 09:51 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Note: Haven't had one of these enlightening discussions in months.

S: Doesn't give a damn what you believe in until it affects him.

B: Has an overpowering urge to get you to accept his dogma and will not rest until you do.

S: Likes broccoli.

B: Hates broccoli.

I've run across a skeptic or two who seems to have an overpowering urge to get people to accept their lack of dogma.

And broccoli is my favorite veggie.

Where's the middle ground? I think I'd be one of those skelievers. :insano:

--------------------
Maybe - and that's final.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: mushbaby]
#9249144 - 11/15/08 12:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Humans rarely see a middle ground. Self importance obscures the view.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9249466 - 11/15/08 01:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Where is the middle ground?

Jesus was The Messiah
Jesus was not The Messiah

Swami is The Man
Swami is The Man

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9249478 - 11/15/08 01:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

here he comes, he's all dressed in black
new york shoes and a big straw hat
he's never early, he's always late
first thing you learn is you always gotta wait
i'm waiting for my man

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9249622 - 11/15/08 01:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Get the fuck out my way!

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

usefulidiot13
Dark Passenger

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 11,578
Loc: Death From Above
Last seen: 2 months, 12 days

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9254318 - 11/16/08 09:49 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

i think your points are true for a real skeptic. unfortunately those are ultra rare, imo.

--------------------
What Would Dexter Do?

Post Extras:

zouden
Neuroscientist

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: usefulidiot13]
#9255140 - 11/16/08 01:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Not that rare, really. There's quite a few on this forum.

--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: zouden]
#9255529 - 11/16/08 02:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

there are quite a few true believers of skepticism as well.

a true skeptic is skeptical of his own skepticism IMO.

Post Extras:

Cervantes
Devil's Advocate

Registered: 09/23/03
Posts: 13,387
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill

Last seen: 7 hours, 8 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9255601 - 11/16/08 03:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Correct... and...?

Post Extras:

figmentfragment
leaving shroomery

Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 1,226
Loc:

Last seen: 1 year, 5 months

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9256090 - 11/16/08 04:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
there are quite a few true believers of skepticism as well.

a true skeptic is skeptical of his own skepticism IMO.

I am skeptical of the "skeptics".

--------------------
Goodbye Shroomery.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: figmentfragment]
#9256103 - 11/16/08 05:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm skeptical of the skeptics who are skeptical about the skeptics. :tongue:

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

figmentfragment
leaving shroomery

Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 1,226
Loc:

Last seen: 1 year, 5 months

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9256161 - 11/16/08 05:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Skepticism is ongoing...

it is like being skeptical x infinity no returns. :hehehe:

--------------------
Goodbye Shroomery.

Post Extras:

youbreakyoubuy
Monkey Mouth

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 2,632
Last seen: 2 years, 19 days

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9257772 - 11/16/08 10:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Skepticism is recursive. As is believing.

Ultimately, they both are complex(or not so complex) feedback loops.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9259095 - 11/17/08 08:48 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Where is the middle ground?

Jesus was The Messiah
Jesus was not The Messiah

Swami is The Man
Swami is The Man

Middle ground is not sure of the existence of Jesus.

Middle ground is OC is the man.

Post Extras:

BlueCoyote
Beyond

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
#9259599 - 11/17/08 10:26 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

youbreakyoubuy said:
Skepticism is recursive. As is believing.

Ultimately, they both are complex(or not so complex) feedback loops.

No, skepticism about skepticism lets one fall back on believing. Sometimes that's quite relaxing unless one doesn't completely forget about skepticism itself :smile:

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

And death shall have no dominion............................................................."Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: figmentfragment]
#9259930 - 11/17/08 11:26 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

figmentfragment said:
Quote:

deranger said:
there are quite a few true believers of skepticism as well.

a true skeptic is skeptical of his own skepticism IMO.

I am skeptical of the "skeptics".

it's quite circular innnit.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9259936 - 11/17/08 11:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I'm skeptical of the skeptics who are skeptical about the skeptics.

yeah well i'm skeptical of what you just said :P

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9259958 - 11/17/08 11:31 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Quote:

youbreakyoubuy said:
Skepticism is recursive. As is believing.

Ultimately, they both are complex(or not so complex) feedback loops.

No, skepticism about skepticism lets one fall back on believing. Sometimes that's quite relaxing unless one doesn't completely forget about skepticism itself

QFT

Post Extras:

figmentfragment
leaving shroomery

Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 1,226
Loc:

Last seen: 1 year, 5 months

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9259994 - 11/17/08 11:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Quote:

youbreakyoubuy said:
Skepticism is recursive. As is believing.

Ultimately, they both are complex(or not so complex) feedback loops.

No, skepticism about skepticism lets one fall back on believing. Sometimes that's quite relaxing unless one doesn't completely forget about skepticism itself

Skepticism doesn't necessarily allow one to fall back on believing at all.
If I am skeptical of the skeptics, I myself am still skeptical, and this skepticism includes of myself.
If I am skeptical about the ideas that question "belief", it doesn't leave me believing, it leaves me nowhere.
Complete uncertainty over any matter.

I tend to hop back and forth between concepts, never feeling fulfilled or convinced one way or the other.

--------------------
Goodbye Shroomery.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260045 - 11/17/08 11:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
No, skepticism about skepticism lets one fall back on believing. Sometimes that's quite relaxing unless one doesn't completely forget about skepticism itself

QFT

I actually misread what you said, so take away the QFT.

Skepticism sometimes can be a belief.

But is there not such thing as a true skeptic?

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: figmentfragment]
#9260067 - 11/17/08 11:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

figmentfragment said:
I tend to hop back and forth between concepts, never feeling fulfilled or convinced one way or the other.

we seem to think alike :smile:

Post Extras:

BlueCoyote
Beyond

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: figmentfragment]
#9260164 - 11/17/08 12:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I see skepticism as human's possibility grasp for negation. So I just negate skepticism itself for this.

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

Post Extras:

figmentfragment
leaving shroomery

Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 1,226
Loc:

Last seen: 1 year, 5 months

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9260223 - 11/17/08 12:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
I see skepticism as human's possibility grasp for negation. So I just negate skepticism itself for this.

Yes. It is not "skepticism" itself, I am skeptical about, but the ideas and thoughts that present themselves skeptical.

If I question one belief or idea, with a series of thoughts, then what gives these new thoughts, that question the original thought, any right to not have the same process applied.

:lol:

That was hardly coherent, why do I do this to myself?

--------------------
Goodbye Shroomery.

Post Extras:

BlueCoyote
Beyond

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: figmentfragment]
#9260284 - 11/17/08 12:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

figmentfragment said:[...]why do I do this to myself?

Hehe, yes, that's one way of skeptic skepticism :laugh:

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9260393 - 11/17/08 01:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Thats a good way of putting it.

Everything we understand of the world is conceived as negation to a freedom; ultimately our own. Laws are conceived as limits, and arts are conceived in tensions. While Negation is a powerful tool in itself, it is nothing inasmuch as it claims that we are nothing. These two are in balance.

In skepticism one does not go beyond the dynamics of existence, because he is not in complete revolt. He affirms himself by remaining open to the world, and just the same, he affirms the "concrete" aspects of reality. The skeptic cannot grasp the absurdity of existence because, he is grounded in his own positive reality. In the same way that he cannot see reality in terms of faith, he also cannot see it in terms in nothingness, even though this is often his claim.

Existence and non-existence is unapproachable through simple negation. While such negations as skepticism and and asceticism are powerful tools, they are not existential.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9260410 - 11/17/08 01:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
I see skepticism as human's possibility grasp for negation.

This is NOT the case in all definitions of skepticism. Your statement is biased IMO.

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260474 - 11/17/08 01:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

This is not by any means argument for believers. In fact, the reason I say skepticism is not an existential tool, is it remains in the spectrum of belief. It is a negation of belief.

Post Extras:

BlueCoyote
Beyond

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260490 - 11/17/08 01:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Can you give an example where skepticism is not based in the negation of a fact, please ?

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260500 - 11/17/08 01:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It's all play IMO. Nothing to take too seriously.

Question: Are we all defining skepticism in the same way?

We all interpret things differently, and getting caught up in semantics is a serious act (see: belief) and non-playful.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260519 - 11/17/08 01:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Skepticism is not about negation, it is about questioning. Skepticism is the opposite of blind faith, in which one deliberately refrains from questioning.

Quote:

Skepticism: A doubting or questioning attitude or state of mind.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9260533 - 11/17/08 01:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Can you give an example where skepticism is not based in the negation of a fact, please ?

Doubt isn't always denial.

Quote:

5 dictionary results for: skepticism

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

–noun
1. skeptical attitude or temper; doubt.
2. doubt or unbelief with regard to a religion, esp. Christianity.
3. (initial capital letter) the doctrines or opinions of philosophical Skeptics; universal doubt.
Also, scepticism.

American Heritage Dictionary

skep·ti·cism also scep·ti·cism

n.

1. A doubting or questioning attitude or state of mind; dubiety. See Synonyms at uncertainty.
2. Philosophy
1. The ancient school of Pyrrho of Elis that stressed the uncertainty of our beliefs in order to oppose dogmatism.
2. The doctrine that absolute knowledge is impossible, either in a particular domain or in general.
3. A methodology based on an assumption of doubt with the aim of acquiring approximate or relative certainty.
3. Doubt or disbelief of religious tenets.

WordNet

skepticism

noun
1. doubt about the truth of something [syn: incredulity]
2. the disbelief in any claims of ultimate knowledge [syn: agnosticism]

American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition

skepticism

In philosophy, the position that what cannot be proved by reason should not be believed. One of the main tasks of epistemology is to find an answer to the charge of some extreme skeptics that no knowledge is possible.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Skepticism

1. An undecided, inquiring state of mind; doubt; uncertainty.

That momentary amazement, and irresolution, and confusion, which is the result of skepticism. --Hune.

2. (Metaph.) The doctrine that no fact or principle can be certainly known; the tenet that all knowledge is uncertain; Pyrrohonism; universal doubt; the position that no fact or truth, however worthy of confidence, can be established on philosophical grounds; critical investigation or inquiry, as opposed to the positive assumption or assertion of certain principles.

3. (Theol.) A doubting of the truth of revelation, or a denial of the divine origin of the Christian religion, or of the being, perfections, or truth of God.

Let no . . . secret skepticism lead any one to doubt whether this blessed prospect will be realized. --S. Miller.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9260537 - 11/17/08 01:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Skepticism is not a four letter word.

Post Extras:

BlueCoyote
Beyond

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260554 - 11/17/08 01:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Question: Are we all defining skepticism in the same way?

That's why I asked for a counter argument.
It seems to be strictly bound to 'negation'.

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9260569 - 11/17/08 01:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Perhaps you are referring to cynicism?

Quote:

1. An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others.

2. A scornfully or jadedly negative comment or act.

Post Extras:

BlueCoyote
Beyond

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260570 - 11/17/08 01:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

All your examples base on negations of 'something' :smile:

veritas:not really...

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9260575 - 11/17/08 01:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
It seems to be strictly bound to 'negation'.

In some cases, yes. But in some cases, it's not. Did you read my last post?

"Seeming is believing for prisoners of time and space"

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9260585 - 11/17/08 01:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

A questioning state of mind - this is the existential attitude.

But doubt implies a duality of observer and existence therefore affirming his existence. He can only possibly negate the world as he affirms himself. See my first post.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9260589 - 11/17/08 01:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

No, they do not.

Negate: To rule out; deny.

If someone is "ruling out" and "denying," then they are NOT engaged in skepticism. Skepticism involves questioning & remaining uncertain when the facts have not been established. What you are talking about is cynicism or debunking.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9260592 - 11/17/08 01:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
All your examples base on negations of 'something'

Not true.

Take this definition -

Quote:

1. doubt about the truth of something [syn: incredulity]

Doubt is not negation.

Doubt is not denial.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260617 - 11/17/08 01:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
A questioning state of mind - this is the existential attitude.

But doubt implies a duality of observer and existence therefore affirming his existence. He negates the world and affirms himself. See my first post.

Our experience is that of duality. We are excluded from all experiences besides our own, and therefore do not have adequate information to affirm or deny the rest of the world. To negate the world would be decidedly non-skeptical.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260622 - 11/17/08 01:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
A questioning state of mind - this is the existential attitude.

But doubt implies a duality of observer and existence therefore affirming his existence. He negates the world and affirms himself. See my first post.

Your post is contradictory.

Quote:

doubt

1. to be uncertain about; consider questionable or unlikely; hesitate to believe.

One can have a skeptical attitude, yet have an existential attitude at the same time.

A skeptic doesn't have to be purely a skeptic.

This is why I am skeptical of my own skepticism.

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260625 - 11/17/08 01:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

There are two fundamentally different attitudes described:

"What is going on here?", or as I like to say over and over when Im tripping "what the fuck?"

On the other hand, doubt is a declaration of self, if not the world. - "I doubt it".

Post Extras:

BlueCoyote
Beyond

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9260635 - 11/17/08 01:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

To be skeptic about a truth one first has to doubt it...maybe that's a linguistic problem...but doubt to me has a similar meaning as negate. It's the possibility to 'negate'. :shrug:

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9260639 - 11/17/08 01:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

No, in English "doubt" is uncertain whereas "negate" is certain.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260643 - 11/17/08 01:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
On the other hand, doubt is a declaration of self, if not the world. - "I doubt it".

This is according to your definition/interpretation of doubt. Do we all see through your eyes?

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260644 - 11/17/08 01:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Right, my intentions were to indicate that the two attitudes were contradictory.

Quote:

A skeptic doesn't have to be purely a skeptic.

This is why I am skeptical of my own skepticism.

I don't disagree with this. I mentioned that both skepticism and asceticism as powerful tools, but unable to grasp the absurdity of existence in themselves.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9260656 - 11/17/08 01:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
but doubt to me has a similar meaning as negate. It's the possibility to 'negate'.

This is purely based on your opinion/interpretation of how you define doubt.

Again, do we all see through your eyes?

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260660 - 11/17/08 01:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

daytripper23 said:
On the other hand, doubt is a declaration of self, if not the world. - "I doubt it".

This is according to your definition/interpretation of doubt. Do we all see through your eyes?

It is the only possible "definition" - arising from a self, mine your's or anyone's. One cannot conceive of doubt without it arising from a positive being. This is why I say doubt affirms the self, and in this term, can only negate.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260667 - 11/17/08 01:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Didn't anyone tell you here? There is no self. :shrug:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260672 - 11/17/08 01:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
I mentioned that both skepticism and asceticism as powerful tools, but unable to grasp the absurdity of existence in themselves.

With a lack of self-awareness, yes. But not all lack such self-awareness.

I don't want this post to make it seem like I'm more self-aware than anyone else, it's just to prove a point.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260681 - 11/17/08 01:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I don't want this post to make it seem like I'm more self-aware than anyone else,

But you are more aware of your self than anyone else. :wink:

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9260683 - 11/17/08 01:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Didn't anyone tell you here? There is no self.

I tend to agree.

Thats why I am saying doubt, which affirms the self, is possibly flawed perception (if there is no self). One cannot lose himself in doubt.

Edited by daytripper23 (11/17/08 01:58 PM)

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260693 - 11/17/08 01:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
It is the only possible "definition"

Yes, but do we all interpret the definition the same way? Do we all see through the same lens of perception

Post Extras:

BlueCoyote
Beyond

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,116
Loc: Between
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260698 - 11/17/08 01:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
but doubt to me has a similar meaning as negate. It's the possibility to 'negate'.

This is purely based on your opinion/interpretation of how you define doubt.

Again, do we all see through your eyes?

Which of your counter arguments do you want to be counter argumented ? :smile:

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260700 - 11/17/08 01:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I mentioned that both skepticism and asceticism as powerful tools, but unable to grasp the absurdity of existence in themselves.

Quote:

With a lack of self-awareness, yes. But not all lack such self-awareness.

Im not sure what you mean by this, or what you are referring to exactly.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260701 - 11/17/08 01:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Thats why I am saying doubt, which affirms the self, is possibly flawed perception (if there is no self). One cannot lose himself in doubt.

Nor can one post at the Shroomery. :monkeydance:

Edited by Icelander (11/17/08 01:55 PM)

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9260710 - 11/17/08 01:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't want this post to make it seem like I'm more self-aware than anyone else,

But you are more aware of your self than anyone else.

No, I am not. I lack self-awareness.

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260715 - 11/17/08 01:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Deranger, the point is, we all see doubt through a lens of perception.

If you try to form a thought with the word doubt in it, it affirms a postive being.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: BlueCoyote]
#9260717 - 11/17/08 01:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Which of your conter arguments do you want to be counter argumented ?

You decide :smile:

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260718 - 11/17/08 01:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Not true. You are posting here and that takes self awareness. You are postulating on degree.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260726 - 11/17/08 01:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Deranger, the point is, we all see doubt through a lens of perception.

If you try to form a thought with the word doubt in it, it affirms a postive being.

Is doubt always thought of, or can it not be an attitude? (which of course can be combined with many other attitudes)

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260734 - 11/17/08 01:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
If you try to form a thought with the word doubt in it, it affirms a postive being.

Couldn't the same be said for ANY thought? After all, if "I" am thinking, and "I" am aware that I am thinking, "I" am affirming my existence. (Credit to Descartes, of course.)

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9260750 - 11/17/08 02:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Not true. You are posting here and that takes self awareness. You are postulating on degree.

Yes, I do have a sense of self-awareness. However my self-awareness compared to that of someone who has been meditating 10 hours a day for 20 years straight is nadda.

Do you not believe there are degree's of self-awareness one can experience?

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260770 - 11/17/08 02:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Deranger, the point is, we all see doubt through a lens of perception.

If you try to form a thought with the word doubt in it, it affirms a postive being.

Is doubt always thought of, or can it not be an attitude? (which of course can be combined with many other attitudes)

Well, the question on the other hand is a step back from doubt

-
What the fuck?

What is real?
-
This does not imply me myself asking this question, unless you feel that someone is narrating your life or something.

Im not saying that the question is instant enlightenment, but it is at least possible to let go of yourself this way.

And Veritas, "I think therefore I am" is probably implied in most questions, but I am not sure if this is necessarily the case. I only strongly suspect my nothingness, I haven't felt it in my bones. I don't know if its possible, this doesn't stop me from recognizing some of the limitations of other ways of thinking.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260795 - 11/17/08 02:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Can you clarify what you mean by this 'question'? (And please be more clear for me dumb shit)

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260798 - 11/17/08 02:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I disagree. Questioning and doubting are similar, if not the same. If you formulate a question, and decide to ask a particular question out of all the possible questions which might be asked, then you are expressing a "self" with individual cognition and prejudices.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260811 - 11/17/08 02:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

However my self-awareness compared to that of someone who has been meditating 10 hours a day for 20 years straight is nadda.

I call BS. How would you know that?

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260812 - 11/17/08 02:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Well, the question on the other hand is a step back from doubt

-
What the fuck?

What is real?

Can doubting not be questioning?

Couldn't you be asking those questions from a doubtful state of mind?

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9260840 - 11/17/08 02:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
However my self-awareness compared to that of someone who has been meditating 10 hours a day for 20 years straight is nadda.

I call BS. How would you know that?

Because I have noticed it within myself through meditation and high-dose tripping, and have noticed it in the people who run the local Vipassana retreat whom meditate 10 hours a day for weeks, every month, every year. They are extremely self-aware compared to me, it is blatantly obvious.

You can negate this all you want, that's fine. To each their own.

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9260846 - 11/17/08 02:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

If there is one who formulates the question, and decides to ask a particular question out of all the possible questions which might be asked, then there is a "self" with individual cognition and prejudices.

I would say that the self is awareness of self, and this is the subject. Objectifying the self as "individual cognition and prejudices" makes no sense these terms (as a subject). Its the attempt to be objective and subjective at the same time.

This objectification; "individual cognition and prejudices", thats the narrator speaking. And we all know that we ourselves are the only narrators.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260855 - 11/17/08 02:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

How can you assess their internal state? Self-awareness might be indicated by someone's behavior, or they might be skilled performers. :shrug:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9260884 - 11/17/08 02:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
How can you assess their internal state?

I do not assess, I am aware of their internal state. The way they communicate, how they are so compassionate and loving and friendly. I am aware that they are very self-aware.

You can negate this, I feel for you.

Quote:

Self-awareness might be indicated by someone's behavior, or they might be skilled performers.

Someone who has been practicing Vipasanna meditation 10 hours a day for weeks at a time, for months and years, are not skilled performers. They are self-aware.

Again, you can negate this, I understand.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9260891 - 11/17/08 02:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I say that the decision to dissect our experience of self is also an expression of personal prejudice. Only our awareness is the self? Who says? The self. Why does the self say this? Because the self believes it to be true. Why does it believe this to be true? Because it has learned to do so. We cannot sort the awareness from the accumulated lessons, and we cannot experience the world without the lens of perception. Everything we experience is translated through the "acquired" self before it reaches the "original" self.

If you choose to question, cognitively formulate your question, and select that question out of the billions you might ask, how have you avoided expressing personal prejudices? How have you sidestepped the problem of implying your own existence?

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260902 - 11/17/08 02:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not negating anything. I just don't see any evidence of this. The Icelander is just as self aware as any of those folk. I've met many of em too. What defines self aware?

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260903 - 11/17/08 02:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
How can you assess their internal state?

I do not assess, I am aware of their internal state. The way they communicate, how they are so compassionate and loving and friendly. I am aware that they are very self-aware.

You can negate this, I feel for you.

Quote:

Self-awareness might be indicated by someone's behavior, or they might be skilled performers.

Someone who has been practicing Vipasanna meditation 10 hours a day for weeks at a time, for months and years, are not skilled performers. They are self-aware.

Again, you can negate this, I understand.

*sigh* I am not negating anything, I am questioning your statement of supposed fact with regard to the internal state of other human beings.

It might be that they are more self-aware, I don't know. My point is that neither do you. You are guessing & stating it as a fact.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9260948 - 11/17/08 02:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
*sigh* I am not negating anything, I am questioning your statement of supposed fact with regard to the internal state of other human beings.

It might be that they are more self-aware, I don't know. My point is that neither do you. You are guessing & stating it as a fact.

Well, I know it as fact.

You can call me delusional and belief-fueled, I don't care. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9260953 - 11/17/08 02:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Do you really know it as fact? I can tell that you feel confident in your belief, but can you honestly say that it is factual? We can guess about someone's internal state by the outward signs, but how can we possibly know as fact what they are experiencing?

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9260957 - 11/17/08 02:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

What you are talking about is cynicism or debunking.

Where does bunking fit into all of this?

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9260990 - 11/17/08 02:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm not negating anything. I just don't see any evidence of this.

Can there be evidence that I hallucinate hieroglyphics when I trip on shrooms?

Quote:

The Icelander is just as self aware as any of those folk.

I can't believe you just said that. That's like George bush saying he's just as aware as you.

Quote:

I've met many of em too.

You haven't met all of them.

Quote:

What defines self aware?

Can awareness be accurately defined?

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261003 - 11/17/08 02:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

The Icelander is just as self aware as any of those folk.

I can't believe you just said that. That's like George bush saying he's just as aware as you.

Yes, it's exactly the same. There is no way to prove nor disprove either claim. :shrug:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261005 - 11/17/08 02:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Do you really know it as fact?

I am aware of it as a fact.

Just as I am aware that George bush lacks self-awareness. That is a fact.

Quote:

I can tell that you feel confident in your belief, but can you honestly say that it is factual? We can guess about someone's internal state by the outward signs, but how can we possibly know as fact what they are experiencing?

Is it not a fact that George Bush lacks self-awareness?

Just as I can notice his lack of self-awareness, I can notice the beings with more developed self-awareness. Empathy maybe.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9261011 - 11/17/08 02:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Didn't anyone tell you here? There is no self.

Then where does self-storage fit in?

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261015 - 11/17/08 02:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

No, it is not a fact that George Bush lacks self-awareness. This is a judgment based upon his outward behaviors, and cannot be deemed factual. We can say that it is a fact that he is the President of the United States (soon to be ex!), or that it is a fact that he lives in the White House, but we cannot state as a fact that we can discern his internal state.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261017 - 11/17/08 02:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, it's exactly the same.

You honestly believe Bush is just as self-aware as Icelander?

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261020 - 11/17/08 02:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know, and neither do you. The claims are the same because they are equally unverifiable.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261034 - 11/17/08 02:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
No, it is not a fact that George Bush lacks self-awareness.

OK then. Let's say Bushy drinks a 40oz of whiskey every day and has been watching TV all his life and listening to mainstream radio, never at all engaging in self-reflection.

Is it not a fact that he lacks self-awareness, let's say compared to the Icelander?

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261037 - 11/17/08 02:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I don't know, and neither do you.

See above post.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261048 - 11/17/08 02:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

and listening to mainstream radio

Mainstream radio = unawareness?

Alternate radio = awareness?

Perhaps judgment = unawareness.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261061 - 11/17/08 02:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

No. How could I possibly know his level of internal self-awareness? This assumes that I know the rules regarding attainment of "higher" self-awareness, that whiskey and TV and radio diminish self-awareness, that he has not had a blinding flash of enlightenment & become perfectly self-aware, etc... :lol:

Any judgments we make regarding someone else's self-awareness can only be based upon guesswork. We do not have a window into their experience, as they do not have one into our experience.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261063 - 11/17/08 02:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I don't know, and neither do you. The claims are the same because they are equally unverifiable.

This. Anyone who knows that he is more self-aware than anyone else can't be considered very self-aware at all.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261072 - 11/17/08 03:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That is also a guess. :grin:

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer *DELETED* [Re: Veritas]
#9261077 - 11/17/08 03:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by Veritas

Reason for deletion: Use the PM system for sarcastic remarks regarding other posters.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261090 - 11/17/08 03:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

We do not have a window into their experience, as they do not have one into our experience.

Next you are going to say that telepathy doesn't exist. :rolleyes:

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261097 - 11/17/08 03:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You mean Prez W?

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261103 - 11/17/08 03:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I was being sarcastic, of course.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261112 - 11/17/08 03:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9261114 - 11/17/08 03:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

and listening to mainstream radio

Mainstream radio = unawareness?

Alternate radio = awareness?

Perhaps judgment = unawareness.

OK. Any radio... does that work for you?

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261116 - 11/17/08 03:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Talk shit about the soon-to-be-ex Prez all you want, but save your comments about other posters for PM, please. :grin:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261132 - 11/17/08 03:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
No. How could I possibly know his level of internal self-awareness? This assumes that I know the rules regarding attainment of "higher" self-awareness, that whiskey and TV and radio diminish self-awareness, that he has not had a blinding flash of enlightenment & become perfectly self-aware, etc...

Any judgments we make regarding someone else's self-awareness can only be based upon guesswork. We do not have a window into their experience, as they do not have one into our experience.

Ok. You can believe Bush (and the possible way of life he lives by I described above) is equally as self-aware as Icelander. We'll have to agree to disagree.

*puts on beer goggles*

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261143 - 11/17/08 03:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Talk shit about the soon-to-be-ex Prez all you want, but save your comments about other posters for PM, please.

That is also a no-no. I know for a fact that GWB posts here, but I cannot reveal his screen name. :nono:

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261145 - 11/17/08 03:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

When did I say that I believed anything of the sort? :lol:

If you read over my post, I clearly stated that I DON'T KNOW whether Bush is more or less self-aware than Icelander or any other human being. I suspect that he is more self-aware than a jellyfish, but that might just be my human-centric bias talking.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261151 - 11/17/08 03:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
I don't know, and neither do you. The claims are the same because they are equally unverifiable.

This. Anyone who knows that he is more self-aware than anyone else can't be considered very self-aware at all.

I'm not trying to compare myself to others here, if that is what you are getting at. I don't think about how much more self-aware I am than others. That is self-indulgence.

However, comparing the self-awareness of Bush to Icelander is me trying to prove a point.

I am aware that Bush is less self-aware than Icelander.

Bush is a fucking puppet, and a blind fool. Icelander is not.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261153 - 11/17/08 03:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bush is a fucking puppet, and a blind fool. Icelander is not.

This is an opinion & not a fact. Isn't it self-indulgence to believe that one can accurately judge others?

Edited by Veritas (11/17/08 03:19 PM)

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261156 - 11/17/08 03:19 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OK. Any radio... does that work for you?

Here we go with the moving target.

As listening is an activity requiring awareness it cannot be symptomatic of unawareness.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9261162 - 11/17/08 03:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

But the radio distracts your awareness from the eternal and unchanging self, and thereby undermines your development of higher self-awareness. Damn you NPR! :mad:

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261164 - 11/17/08 03:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I say that the decision to dissect our experience of self is also an expression of personal prejudice. Only our awareness is the self? Who says? The self. Why does the self say this? Because the self believes it to be true. Why does it believe this to be true? Because it has learned to do so. We cannot sort the awareness from the accumulated lessons, and we cannot experience the world without the lens of perception. Everything we experience is translated through the "acquired" self before it reaches the "original" self.

If you choose to question, cognitively formulate your question, and select that question out of the billions you might ask, how have you avoided expressing personal prejudices? How have you sidestepped the problem of implying your own existence?

I am talking about consciousness, which precedes the intersubjective world. There is no such thing as bias or prejudice here. By acknowledging an objective and subjective world, you have merely begun to reflect within the self. Any ideas of prejudice or bias arise out of the same unitary, unprejudiced root. You are saying there is prejudice within the mind? That is schizophrenia.

In the objectified experience, the situation can be reflected upon the screen of the computer:
By asking a question I am expressing a prejudice. Because there is clearly some dude asking a question.

Basic experience is a different story, which I clearly cannot relate to you without objectifying it. If I expressed this by saying "everything is subjective", you would have a basic idea of this. But this is a corruption that can be manipulated, because as you indicate, subjectivity implies objective. Have you ever been truly alone? this is what I am talking about.

The real question concerns being and nothingness. Between self and other, this is expressed in the corrupt terms of what is objective and subjective. In basic experience, something that precedes this, reality is simply the conduct of what is and what is not.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9261172 - 11/17/08 03:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I am talking about consciousness, which precedes the objective world.

Really? How have you established this?

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261179 - 11/17/08 03:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
When did I say that I believed anything of the sort? If you read over my post, I clearly stated that I DON'T KNOW whether Bush is more or less self-aware than Icelander or any other human being. I suspect that he is more self-aware than a jellyfish, but that might just be my human-centric bias talking.

Ok. You can suspect Icelander is more self-aware than Bush.

Or you could be aware of it.

Are you aware that a physically and emotionally abusive father is equally self-aware as say, Icelander (sorry for using you as an example Icelander, your just a good example in this case.) Or do you suspect this?

If you suspect this, that's great. If you are not aware of this as a fact, that's not so great.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261194 - 11/17/08 03:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I can guess at the internal state of another human being, but I cannot become directly aware of that state. I can witness behaviors which seem to me to be unskillful and fear-based, and guess that they reflect an internal state of fear and disconnection. I cannot possibly know whether someone else is more or less self-aware than another person.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9261197 - 11/17/08 03:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

OK. Any radio... does that work for you?

Here we go with the moving target.

As listening is an activity requiring awareness it cannot be symptomatic of unawareness.

No, but sitting in front of the TV 12 hours out of the day does not lead to the development of self-awareness. It leads to a thought-infested, programmed mind that lacks self-awareness.

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261201 - 11/17/08 03:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

I am talking about consciousness, which precedes the objective world.

Really? How have you established this?

Because objectivity is an idea.

Edited by daytripper23 (11/17/08 03:27 PM)

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261202 - 11/17/08 03:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

In your opinion, and not necessarily in fact. How can we know for certain that an individual who is watching TV all day is not developing self-awareness? Judging a particular activity is an expression of personal bias, and not a statement of fact.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9261208 - 11/17/08 03:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

I am talking about consciousness, which precedes the objective world.

Really? How have you established this?

Because objectivity is an idea.

By "objective world," are you referring to material reality?

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261219 - 11/17/08 03:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Damn you NPR!

Somebody get a rope!

:mob:

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261224 - 11/17/08 03:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I cannot possibly know whether someone else is more or less self-aware than another person.

Another example.

Let's say Tom (who obviously knows the weather) has been watching TV since 1, for 10 hours out of the day, every day of the week, every month, every year. Tom is now 50 and has been indulging in this noise 10 hours a day for the past 50 years. He's never had to go to school or work because of his rich parents.

Are you not aware that Tom lacks self-awareness?

Edited by Veritas (11/17/08 03:30 PM)

Post Extras:

Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261237 - 11/17/08 03:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You believe that sitting in front of the TV cannot facilitate self-awareness. These are not facts!

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261238 - 11/17/08 03:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I am sure you are familiar with the argument.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261247 - 11/17/08 03:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
In your opinion, and not necessarily in fact. How can we know for certain that an individual who is watching TV all day is not developing self-awareness? Judging a particular activity is an expression of personal bias, and not a statement of fact.

In your opinion.

It is truth that the individual indulging in constant noise from TV 12 hours out of the day every day every month every year is not developing self-awareness. He is losing self-awareness.

This is the truth to me. And yes this is and opinion. But behind the opinion I believe lies truth.

Stick to the ideas, please. ~V

Edited by Veritas (11/17/08 03:34 PM)

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261248 - 11/17/08 03:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Let's focus on the ideas & not the posters, mmkay?

No, neither of us has any idea what degree of self-awareness this hypothetical person might possess. :lol:

How is this question any different from any prior question regarding this subject?

IMO: We cannot know the degree of self-awareness of any other being. We can GUESS, but this guess will be tainted by all the personal prejudices which cloud our perception and limit our thinking. We cannot view someone else's internal experience, therefore we cannot possibly judge their level of self-awareness.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261251 - 11/17/08 03:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

No, but sitting in front of the TV

And the target moves once more... :rolleyes:

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9261253 - 11/17/08 03:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You can conceive of the matrix,

But you cannot (conceive) of the opposite.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9261256 - 11/17/08 03:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
You believe that sitting in front of the TV cannot facilitate self-awareness. These are not facts!

Sitting in front of the TV 12 hours out of the day every day every month every year for 50 years does not facilitate self-awareness. It makes one less aware of the self.

Dude, I said stick to the ideas! Calling other posters names is not kosher. ~V

Edited by Veritas (11/17/08 03:37 PM)

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: daytripper23]
#9261259 - 11/17/08 03:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Great movie! :smile:

So are you saying that we are creating material reality with our consciousness? How do you know this? What if material reality is creating our consciousness, and it ceases when we cease to function in this form?

Post Extras:

Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261260 - 11/17/08 03:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
This is the truth to me. And yes this is and opinion. But behind the opinion I believe lies truth.

This makes no sense.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9261274 - 11/17/08 03:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Hmmm, I wonder if all opinion is truth or just the truthful opinions...

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261295 - 11/17/08 03:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Let's focus on the ideas & not the posters, mmkay?

I was not focusing on you, I was focusing on your belief, mmkay?

Quote:

No, neither of us has any idea what degree of self-awareness this hypothetical person might possess.

We can be aware of it. IMO.

Quote:

IMO: We cannot know the degree of self-awareness of any other being.

We can be aware of it. IMO.

Quote:

We can GUESS

Or be aware of it. IMO.

Quote:

but this guess will be tainted by all the personal prejudices which cloud our perception and limit our thinking.

being aware of something is not guessing anything.

Quote:

We cannot view someone else's internal experience,

No, but we can be aware of it. Just as I am aware of the internal state of a drunken, abusive father.

Quote:

therefore we cannot possibly judge their level of self-awareness.

being aware of something is not judging.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9261298 - 11/17/08 03:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Quote:

deranger said:
This is the truth to me. And yes this is and opinion. But behind the opinion I believe lies truth.

This makes no sense.

To you.

Post Extras:

Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261303 - 11/17/08 03:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

No, you can be aware of your belief that you know someone's internal state. That doesn't make it true just because you are aware of it.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261305 - 11/17/08 03:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Ah, I see, you're talking about some type of direct awareness, absent the filters of perception? Yeah...good luck with all that! :smile:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9261310 - 11/17/08 03:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

No, but sitting in front of the TV

And the target moves once more...

Good one.

Post Extras:

Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261317 - 11/17/08 03:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Quote:

deranger said:
This is the truth to me. And yes this is and opinion. But behind the opinion I believe lies truth.

This makes no sense.

To you.

Behind my opinion that it makes no sense lies truth.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9261331 - 11/17/08 03:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

And a peanut-butter-and-grape-jelly sandwich! Mmmm...

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9261337 - 11/17/08 03:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
No, you can be aware of your belief that you know someone's internal state. That doesn't make it true just because you are aware of it.

In a deep state of meditation beliefs no longer exist.

No, I'm not saying I'm in a constant state of meditation all the time, making everything that I say true.

But I am aware that one can be directly aware of one's internal state, to some degree.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261340 - 11/17/08 03:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, you can be aware of your own internal state.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9261342 - 11/17/08 03:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

We have a winner! :trophy:

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

Cervantes
Devil's Advocate

Registered: 09/23/03
Posts: 13,387
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill

Last seen: 7 hours, 8 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261350 - 11/17/08 03:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:

No, I'm not saying I'm in a constant state of meditation all the time, making everything that I say true.

But I am aware that one can be directly aware of one's internal state, to some degree.

Now, you're sounding like a skeptic.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261356 - 11/17/08 03:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

And a peanut-butter-and-grape-jelly sandwich! Mmmm...

Before indulging try my peanut-butter bread experiment over a clean floor. I would be interested in your observation and results.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9261367 - 11/17/08 03:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Quote:

deranger said:
This is the truth to me. And yes this is and opinion. But behind the opinion I believe lies truth.

This makes no sense.

To you.

Behind my opinion that it makes no sense lies truth.

Behind my opinion that it makes no sense to you, lies truth.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261370 - 11/17/08 03:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Ah, I see, you're talking about some type of direct awareness, absent the filters of perception? Yeah...good luck with all that!

I'm working on it. It'll be a life-long journey.

Kind of an empathy thing.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261373 - 11/17/08 03:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, you can be aware of your own internal state.

Ever heard of empathy?

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261374 - 11/17/08 03:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Uh oh. Runaway loop. Stop the madness! :eek:

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9261378 - 11/17/08 03:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Uh oh. Runaway loop. Stop the madness!

Get your ass over here and tie me up to a cross like Jebus, I'm going mad.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261392 - 11/17/08 04:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Empathy is an emotional experience. Judgment is an intellectual interpretation.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261412 - 11/17/08 04:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Awareness is not judgment.

Empathy is the awareness of feelings, thoughts, or states of mind of others.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261419 - 11/17/08 04:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I know it as fact. You can call me delusional and belief-fueled, I don't care.

Hard to have respect for this kind of thinking. Every born again Christian etc. works like this. It's really a sad state IMO. And you can't debate it because the true believer has no evidence for belief. I will respectfully suggest this belongs in the Mystery forum. :monkeydance:

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261430 - 11/17/08 04:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Eh, no, empathy is not mind-reading. To empathize means to identify with (and share, to some degree) the emotional experience of another, not to read their thoughts or become directly aware of their state of mind.

Stating as fact that someone else lacks self-awareness is an intellectual interpretation called "judgment."

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261446 - 11/17/08 04:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said: In a deep state of meditation beliefs no longer exist.

You obviously believe that a deep state of meditation eliminates all beliefs, so this statement is self-contradictory.

No matter how hard you try, escaping a certain set of beliefs (or your reality paradigm) is impossible. You believe that Bush is less self-aware than Icelander; you believe that a person who does nothing but watch TV for fifty years is less self-aware than someone who does not.

Regardless of much more likely it is that Bush is, in fact, less self-aware than Ice, you still cannot claim this as a fact, as this is your personal, subjective, and unjustified opinion. I'm sure that if we polled a Bush supporter they would not agree with your position.

Moreover, what are you basing your position on Bush's self-awareness on? IMO you're relying your beliefs on your perception of him via the media and nothing else--have you personally carried out a conversation with Bush? Have you kicked it with Bush and a beer at his pad? IMO your statements are wholly unverifiable and lacking in firm logical foundation.

What if watching TV for fifty years allowed you to perceive through the consumerist bullshit that's being piped through the media stream and fully realize the truth behind humanity? Who are you to judge what is self-awareness and what isn't?

/end rant.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261458 - 11/17/08 04:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Who are you to judge what is self-awareness and what isn't?

You put your finger on the problem as I see it. It's the self importance of the individual which creates the belief that they know what is true, what is real and what isn't.

Edited by Icelander (11/17/08 04:13 PM)

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261479 - 11/17/08 04:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Eh, no, empathy is not mind-reading. To empathize means to identify with (and share, to some degree) the emotional experience of another, not to read their thoughts or become directly aware of their state of mind.

Stating as fact that someone else lacks self-awareness is an intellectual interpretation called "judgment."

I never stated empathy is mind-reading.

It is the understanding of their internal state of being, including awareness.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261491 - 11/17/08 04:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

deranger said: In a deep state of meditation beliefs no longer exist.

You obviously believe that a deep state of meditation eliminates all beliefs, so this statement is self-contradictory.

I never stated deep states of meditation eliminate all beliefs. In deep states of meditation, beliefs cease to function because the mind is not identified and attached to the process of belief. The mind is silent.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261497 - 11/17/08 04:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That's not what empathy means. How is awareness of someone's thoughts not mind-reading? :confused:

Quote:

Empathy: Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives.

Empathy is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, to imagine yourself into their emotions, not to directly experience their thoughts and level of self-awareness.

(Synonym: pity.)

Are you saying that empathy would allow you to directly understand someone else's level of self-awareness, and thereby accurately judge them? If you have not yet developed this ability, how can you state AS FACT that someone has less self-awareness than another?

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261517 - 11/17/08 04:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

deranger said: In a deep state of meditation beliefs no longer exist.

You obviously believe that a deep state of meditation eliminates all beliefs, so this statement is self-contradictory.

I never stated deep states of meditation eliminate all beliefs.

You said this: In a deep state of meditation beliefs no longer exist.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261520 - 11/17/08 04:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

deranger said: In a deep state of meditation beliefs no longer exist.

You obviously believe that a deep state of meditation eliminates all beliefs, so this statement is self-contradictory.

I never stated deep states of meditation eliminate all beliefs. In deep states of meditation, beliefs cease to function because the mind is not identified and attached to the process of belief. The mind is silent.

Your personal experience may provide convincing evidence towards this, but you still proclaim this as a fact.

Do you or do you not believe that beliefs cease to function during deep states of meditation?

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9261521 - 11/17/08 04:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Who are you to judge what is self-awareness and what isn't?

You put your finger on the problem as I see it. It's the self importance of the individual which creates the belief that they know what is true, what is real and what isn't.

Judging the internal state of another is an act of self-importance.

However being are of another's state of being without using judgment is not of self-importance.

When you see that someone is suffering, are you judging that they are suffering, or are you aware that they are suffering?

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261526 - 11/17/08 04:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Judging, naturally.

Internal mental states can only be guessed at; never dictated with firm assurety.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9261529 - 11/17/08 04:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

deranger said: In a deep state of meditation beliefs no longer exist.

You obviously believe that a deep state of meditation eliminates all beliefs, so this statement is self-contradictory.

I never stated deep states of meditation eliminate all beliefs.

You said this: In a deep state of meditation beliefs no longer exist.

That is different. I did not say meditation eliminates all beliefs.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261532 - 11/17/08 04:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Gee, that sounds so familiar. Is there an echo in here?

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261541 - 11/17/08 04:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The perception of an echo, perhaps. Who's to say that the echo exists in objective reality?

:wink:

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261549 - 11/17/08 04:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Who are you to judge what is self-awareness and what isn't?

You put your finger on the problem as I see it. It's the self importance of the individual which creates the belief that they know what is true, what is real and what isn't.

Judging the internal state of another is an act of self-importance.

However being are of another's state of being without using judgment is not of self-importance.

When you see that someone is suffering, are you judging that they are suffering, or are you aware that they are suffering?

You are judging that they are suffering of course. :tongue:

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261550 - 11/17/08 04:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

By objective, do you mean material? :wink:

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261557 - 11/17/08 04:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Material implies objective, IMO. What we deem as material is only a subset of the global continuum of mental experiences--some mental experiences are labeled as material whereas others are not. The key factor in determining which is which is consistency and context; something that provides the foundation towards elucidating an objective reality.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261561 - 11/17/08 04:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If the beliefs "no longer exist," haven't they been eliminated? :confused:

Perhaps you meant "are briefly suspended"?

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261565 - 11/17/08 04:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That is different. I did not say meditation eliminates all beliefs.

Thanks for clearing that up. :crazy2:

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261570 - 11/17/08 04:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Ooooh, you sure do talk fancy. :naughty:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261578 - 11/17/08 04:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
That's not what empathy means. How is awareness of someone's thoughts not mind-reading?

Quote:

Empathy: Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives.

Empathy is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, to imagine yourself into their emotions, not to directly experience their thoughts and level of self-awareness.

I never said it is experiencing their thoughts. Identifying with another's feelings often times is becoming aware of their state of awareness. When you see that someone is depressed, you are aware of their state of awareness.

Quote:

Are you saying that empathy would allow you to directly understand someone else's level of self-awareness, and thereby accurately judge them?

No judgment is needed. If I see someone as depressed, I will become aware of their internal state. I will not judge them, and hold on to that judgment for future times.

Quote:

If you have not yet developed this ability, how can you state AS FACT that someone has less self-awareness than another?

When someone is depressed, is that not a fact?

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261581 - 11/17/08 04:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261584 - 11/17/08 04:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I try to counterbalance my purty mouth with enough high fallutin' terminology so as to gain preternatural ethos and convince y'all that my ideology is correct.

:gethigh:

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261591 - 11/17/08 04:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

When someone is depressed, is that not a fact?

Only if they told you and even then they could be lying. Looking at someone and determining they are depressed would be difficult and certainly not a surety.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261593 - 11/17/08 04:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Your personal experience may provide convincing evidence towards this, but you still proclaim this as a fact.

It is a subjective fact, to me. And to me alone.

Quote:

Do you or do you not believe that beliefs cease to function during deep states of meditation?

In a deep enough state of meditation, no thoughts come into mind. Belief is of thought. Thoughts cease to process within the mind in a deep enough state of meditation.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261594 - 11/17/08 04:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Empathy is the awareness of feelings, thoughts, or states of mind of others.

This is your definition.

Are you now stating that someone's level of self-awareness is equivalent to the emotional state of depression? If someone does not tell you that they are depressed, and you have never met them nor interacted with them in any way, can you determine that they are depressed?

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261600 - 11/17/08 04:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I try to counterbalance my purty mouth with enough high fallutin' terminology so as to gain preternatural ethos and convince y'all that my ideology is correct.

What are you wearing?

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261601 - 11/17/08 04:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So in other words, you do believe that meditation ceases all beliefs.

I think no matter how far one goes into deep meditation, some beliefs will maintain their existence. You still believe that you exist, for instance.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261605 - 11/17/08 04:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

... my philosophical bathrobe of awesomeness.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261606 - 11/17/08 04:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I suspected as much, but I did not KNOW for certain. :lol:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9261609 - 11/17/08 04:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You are judging that they are suffering of course.

When you see a man standing on a building about to jump off leading to his death, are you aware of his state of being or are you judging?

One can be aware, or one can judge. It's up to the individual. We don't all perceive the same way.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261612 - 11/17/08 04:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9261615 - 11/17/08 04:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well, I know it as fact. You can call me delusional and belief-fueled, I don't care.

Hard to have respect for this kind of thinking. Every born again Christian etc. works like this. It's really a sad state IMO. And you can't debate it because the true believer has no evidence for belief. I will respectfully suggest this belongs in the Mystery forum.

It is fact, subjectively, to me. It may not be fact for you, however.

Yes I may have come across as imposing this fact on others, but really it is fact to me and to me alone.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261617 - 11/17/08 04:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

One can be aware, or one can judge.

Give me a break. One can only guess at the internal state of another.

Please tell me what state I am in right now. (hint: its not Kentucky)

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261618 - 11/17/08 04:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You are aware of his behavior, whereas you guess about his state of being. Perhaps he is insane, and believes that he is about to take a pleasant flight over the city. Perhaps he has been forced onto the ledge at gunpoint, and is scheming up a way to get out of the situation. Perhaps he is suffering so greatly that he cannot bear to exist for a single moment longer. Perhaps he believes that his death with reunite him with his beloved, and is dreaming of her embrace.

The judgment is based upon believing that you KNOW his state of being.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9261621 - 11/17/08 04:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Is that a photo of you in your philosophical bathrobe of awesomeness? You're much older than I thought. :smile:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261626 - 11/17/08 04:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
If the beliefs "no longer exist," haven't they been eliminated? Perhaps you meant "are briefly suspended"?

If I were to say, "meditation eliminates all beliefs", some noob may read this and start meditating. He will engage in the practice of meditation, thinking he is in meditation, thinking he is eliminating all of his beliefs.

It's all about wording.

We're playing a semantics game here.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261636 - 11/17/08 04:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

"No longer exist" is pretty specific. If they do not exist, they are not there anymore. That means eliminated. If you mean that they briefly cease to be recalled, then say that.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9261643 - 11/17/08 04:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
One can be aware, or one can judge.

Give me a break. One can only guess at the internal state of another.

If a man were beating his head against a wall in sheer madness, are you not aware of his state?

No guessing needed.

Quote:

Please tell me what state I am in right now.

I am not that aware. Plus we're not speaking in person, so I can't really feel you nor empathize with you.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261647 - 11/17/08 04:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Again, how do you know what internal experience is being externalized via beating his head against a wall? You can guess, and you would probably get pretty close, but you could not KNOW what he was experiencing inside.

If you cannot tell what Icelander's state of being is, how can you be certain that George W. is less self-aware than Icelander? :confused:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261654 - 11/17/08 04:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
You are aware of his behavior, whereas you guess about his state of being. Perhaps he is insane, and believes that he is about to take a pleasant flight over the city. Perhaps he has been forced onto the ledge at gunpoint, and is scheming up a way to get out of the situation. Perhaps he is suffering so greatly that he cannot bear to exist for a single moment longer. Perhaps he believes that his death with reunite him with his beloved, and is dreaming of her embrace.

No, it would not be guessing, however it could. I would be aware that he is suffering internally. I would feel for him, and understand that he is confused.

Quote:

The judgment is based upon believing that you KNOW his state of being.

If a woman is crying because she is being verbally abused by her husband, are you not aware of her emotional state?

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261659 - 11/17/08 04:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If a man were beating his head against a wall in sheer madness, are you not aware of his state?

No guessing needed.

Yes guessing is needed. There could be many reasons why someone would be beating their head against the wall. Your position is ridiculous.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261665 - 11/17/08 04:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

How do you KNOW that he is confused? What if he is entirely centered and certain of what he is doing? You would be guessing about his internal state based upon your awareness of his behavior. Same goes for the abused wife...she is crying, and you are aware of this behavior. You could guess that she is experiencing grief, but this would be a GUESS.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261667 - 11/17/08 04:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
"No longer exist" is pretty specific. If they do not exist, they are not there anymore. That means eliminated. If you mean that they briefly cease to be recalled, then say that.

Quote:

exist

To continue to be; persist:

Again, we're playing a semantics game.

In deep states of meditation, thoughts and beliefs no longer exist in conscious awareness. They do not persist in functioning.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261672 - 11/17/08 04:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Exist is not about functioning, it is about being. If something ceases to BE, it no longer exists. If someone dies, does their body cease to exist?

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261678 - 11/17/08 04:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Again, how do you know what internal experience is being externalized via beating his head against a wall?

If someone was beating his head against a wall, it'd be blatantly obvious that he's confused inside and not feeling too conscious.

Anyways, I have to work now, and will continue the debate later.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261680 - 11/17/08 04:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Obvious? Highly suggestive, certainly, but not obvious.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9261682 - 11/17/08 04:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If a man were beating his head against a wall in sheer madness, are you not aware of his state?

No guessing needed.

Yes guessing is needed. There could be many reasons why someone would be beating their head against the wall.

If someone were beating his head against a wall, it's obvious he's not very self-aware.

No guesswork needed.

But I'm off to work and will be back.

Post Extras:

redgreenvines
irregular verb

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 13,644

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9261686 - 11/17/08 04:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

ok here's my take on this
I was wondering what the hell does s & b stand for, but the broccoli issue made everything clear.

s stands for sauce
b stands for broccoli

s likes broccoli (goes well with a vegetable)
b does not want to eat himself. (? preconceived notion)

--------------------
~~~~~

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261697 - 11/17/08 05:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
If a man were beating his head against a wall in sheer madness, are you not aware of his state?

No guessing needed.

Yes guessing is needed. There could be many reasons why someone would be beating their head against the wall.

If someone were beating his head against a wall, it's obvious he's not very self-aware.

No guesswork needed.

But I'm off to work and will be back.

Wrong again. At least your posts are consistent. :crazy2:

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9261712 - 11/17/08 05:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
If a man were beating his head against a wall in sheer madness, are you not aware of his state?

Quote:

deranger said:
If a woman is crying because she is being verbally abused by her husband, are you not aware of her emotional state?

In both these situations, you presuppose that the man is acting because he is in sheer madness, or that the woman is crying because she is being verbally abused.

Obviously, if one knows these causes beforehand, one is aware of their emotional states--but the point is that one can never be fully sure of the cause of any individual's action (and I'd in fact argue that one can never truly be sure as to the cause of one's own actions). If we're simply given the behavioral aspect of Bush, or the behavioral aspects of this man or woman, we can only offer judgements or guesses--true awareness is impossible.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9261721 - 11/17/08 05:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The milk keeps me young at heart, what can I say. :grin:

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9262238 - 11/17/08 06:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Well, we have made amazing strides forward today.

Millenia from now, people will recall the great 'Veritas/Deranger Debate' in hushed tones of reverance at the epiphanies unearthed on that cold November day. And they will bow their heads and give thanks to the intellectual giants that blazed a path before them.

Amen.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9263436 - 11/17/08 09:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Obvious? Highly suggestive, certainly, but not obvious.

Someone bashing his head against a wall is obviously not very self-aware. They are attached to their emotions, which isn't very self-aware. Obvious. It doesn't take any thought to recognize the dude is not very aware of his self and the emotions he is identified with.

Edited for repeated personal comments. Please refrain from personalisms.~V

Edited by Veritas (11/18/08 08:15 AM)

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9263442 - 11/17/08 09:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
If a man were beating his head against a wall in sheer madness, are you not aware of his state?

No guessing needed.

Yes guessing is needed. There could be many reasons why someone would be beating their head against the wall.

If someone were beating his head against a wall, it's obvious he's not very self-aware.

No guesswork needed.

But I'm off to work and will be back.

Wrong again. At least your posts are consistent.

Oh, I'm wrong. That must make you right.

:crazy2:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9263443 - 11/17/08 09:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
In both these situations, you presuppose that the man is acting because he is in sheer madness, or that the woman is crying because she is being verbally abused.

How do you know I presume in such a situation? I am not you. You may presume, but I am aware that those people are not very self-aware atm of their acts. When someone is crying, they are emotional. Not very self-aware. Emo = not very self aware. Local cat killers = emo = not very self-aware. Get my drift?

When a woman is crying because of her husband's emotional abuse, I do not need to presume her emotional state. I am aware of her emotional state. You can presume all you like, but remember, you are not everyone.

Quote:

Obviously, if one knows these causes beforehand, one is aware of their emotional states--

This isn't about the causes beforehand, it's about the now.

Quote:

but the point is that one can never be fully sure of the cause of any individual's action (and I'd in fact argue that one can never truly be sure as to the cause of one's own actions).

Again, this isn't about the cause. It's about what is occurring within the person's state of being in that very moment.

Quote:

If we're simply given the behavioral aspect of Bush, or the behavioral aspects of this man or woman, we can only offer judgements or guesses--true awareness is impossible.

I understand. When this man and this women are acting out in those ways (emotional), they are not very self-aware. The man bashing his head against the wall is obviously emo - this is not a very aware state of being. The woman crying is emo - this is not a very self-aware state of being.

Someone who is self-aware enough would not bash their head against a wall, nor would they cry in deep emotion, nor would they be as dumbshit as Bush.

Edited by deranger (11/17/08 10:47 PM)

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9263448 - 11/17/08 09:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Well, we have made amazing strides forward today.

Millenia from now, people will recall the great 'Veritas/Deranger Debate' in hushed tones of reverance at the epiphanies unearthed on that cold November day. And they will bow their heads and give thanks to the intellectual giants that blazed a path before them.

Amen.

Entertaining, innit.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9263628 - 11/17/08 10:19 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
So in other words, you do believe that meditation ceases all beliefs.

I think no matter how far one goes into deep meditation, some beliefs will maintain their existence. You still believe that you exist, for instance.

Missed this one.

Keep it about the IDEAS & not the poster, please. ~V

In a deep state of meditation (say having been in a constant state of meditation for 10 hours), and having practiced meditation for years, thoughts slow down to the point where there will be no thoughts being processed for minutes. The mind is completely absent of thought for minutes, all there is is the watching, conscious awareness.

Now, a belief is a thought.

Tell me, if there is are no thoughts occurring within one's mind, how can there be belief?

Edited by Veritas (11/18/08 08:13 AM)

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9264028 - 11/17/08 11:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:You may presume, but I am aware that those people are not very self-aware atm of their acts.

No, you're judging that those people are not very self-aware. Again, being "aware" of another person's mental status implies that you know the absolute truth: something that no mortal can claim. Obviously it's an easy guess that a woman bashing her head against the wall is less self-aware; the point is that you can't be absolutely certain of this. She could have a very valid, enlightened reason for bashing her head that you simply don't know.

Quote:

deranger said:Now, a belief is a thought.

Tell me, if there is are no thoughts occurring within one's mind, how can there be belief?

Do you or do you not believe that two plus two does not equal five?

In the former case, even though you weren't aware of the belief (or thought) prior to my asking you, it still existed. Tacit beliefs may be present no matter what, even if the mind is empty.

To think that one can escape one's belief paradigm is merely yet another belief in the brick wall.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Edited by deCypher (11/17/08 11:30 PM)

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9264326 - 11/18/08 01:09 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
No, you're judging that those people are not very self-aware. Again, being aware implies that you know the absolute truth: something that no mortal can claim.

Quote:

a·ware (ə-wâr') Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Having knowledge or cognizance: aware of the difference between the two versions; became aware of faint sound.
2. Archaic Vigilant; watchful.

first there is awareness, then there is judgment. judgment does not come before awareness. If you saw someone blow his brain out with a shotgun, you would first become aware and cognizant of what happened. however long it takes, the thinking mind will react to the situation.

judgment is of thought and opinion. it is an external layer we attach ourselves to, a blanket over our source of being/awareness. meditation slows the thinking mind, and makes one aware of his own awareness/consciousness. this creates a gap in time between awareness, and the thinking/opinionated/judgmental process that the pseuds call mind. Many haven't experienced this gap. Many have here, obviously. psychedelics open this gap temporarily. daily meditation/watchingngess of the thinking mind opens this gap up more permanently, but subtly over time. how much of a time-gap one experiences in day-to-day life depends on how much he reflects on the self each day and refrains from indulging in external and mental activities/noises.

Quote:

judge
/dʒʌdʒ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [juhj] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, verb, judged, judg⋅ing.

8. to form a judgment or opinion of; decide upon critically: You can't judge a book by its cover.

10. to infer, think, or hold as an opinion; conclude about or assess: He judged her to be correct.

11. to make a careful guess about; estimate: We judged the distance to be about four miles.

14. to form an opinion or estimate: I have heard the evidence and will judge accordingly.

15. to make a mental judgment.

so let's take the example of the crying woman. someone who does not experience this time-gap between awareness and the thinking mind will more than likely instantly judge what is happening to the woman. they would think, "oh why is she crying, how do i make her stop crying, what do i do - and this questioning prevents one from empathizing). someone who does have this time gap and is self-aware enough to perceive his own thinking mind, would see the crying woman, and instantly empathize and become aware/cognizant of the woman's emotional state. it would be a knowing, a feeling and identification with her state of being. after the gap in time the thinking mind reacts more actively to the situation and thinks of a way to help and heal the crying woman.

Quote:

deCypher said:
Obviously it's an easy guess that a woman bashing her head against the wall is less self-aware; the point is that you can't be absolutely certain of this. She could have a very valid, enlightened reason for bashing her head that you simply don't know.

yes, but you would first become aware of the bashing of her head. if a guy was balling his eyes out whilst bashing his head against a concrete wall, you would become aware that 1)he is emotional and 2)he isn't very self-aware. if another guy was bashing his head against this concrete wall giggling and laughing until he fell unconscious and cracked his skull, you'd become aware that person was not very self-conscious. when the rational mind speeds up and activates, then judgment occurs.

Quote:

To think that one can escape one's belief paradigm is merely yet another belief in the brick wall.

meditation is not about escaping anything. it is about becoming aware/cognizant of one's belief paradigm. this is not escaping, it is becoming conscious/lucid/self-aware. escaping would be to waste one's life watching TV all day. becoming aware of one's self is staying, it is not escaping. it is becoming, not running away from one's self.

Edited by deranger (11/18/08 01:15 AM)

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9265034 - 11/18/08 08:18 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Someone who is self-aware enough would not bash their head against a wall, nor would they cry in deep emotion, nor would they be as dumbshit as Bush.

This sounds like judgment, not awareness. Why is deep emotion a sign of a lack of self-awareness? Is "dumbshit" a descriptive term used by your meditation instructors? :lol:

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9265077 - 11/18/08 08:37 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Whne a Roshi whacks a meditator with a bamboo stick, he is demonstrating his own lack of awareness and just plain meanness. :yesnod:

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9265131 - 11/18/08 08:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Oh, I'm wrong.

An admission of the obvious. :thumbup:

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9265195 - 11/18/08 09:16 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Careful - thin ice! (no pun intended for a change)

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9265199 - 11/18/08 09:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9265410 - 11/18/08 10:19 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

OK, I sense the difficulty here comes in interpretation of definitions.

Suppose we carefully examine the case of a woman bashing her head against the wall. First: you notice the woman engaged in this curious activity. You have become aware of the bashing, because you know that she is currently performing it--no argument here. (Let's leave aside metaphysical considerations of what is real and whether she is a dream character for now, shall we?)

Secondly, you use rational skills and deductive logic to infer that this woman is not feeling very well (i.e. you are making a guess about her internal, unknowable emotional state). This step requires inferential deduction and finally a basic assumption; an assumption that's probably true, sure, but an assumption nonetheless. If asked, you could not prove that the woman was feeling sad: what if the woman is masochistic and is internally loving the pain she's inducing on herself? What if she's figured out that the key to enlightenment involves bludgeoning one's head against a brick wall? (shades of P&S discussions, no less... :tongue:

) The point is that you can't be absolutely certain that your judgement of this woman's internal state, or even self-awareness is correct.

Quote:

deranger said: a·ware (ə-wâr') Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Having knowledge or cognizance: aware of the difference between the two versions; became aware of faint sound.
2. Archaic Vigilant; watchful.

OK, perfect. Awareness implies having knowledge, or being aware of a factual situation. This implies that we are no longer dealing with subjective guesses, but rather the objective truth of a matter. I am currently aware that I am breathing, or that I am typing on a computer. Am I aware of what thoughts are going through your head while reading this post? No, although I might have a pretty good idea. Are you aware what a complete stranger's emotional state is? Again, no, and even though her bashing her head against the wall might be a pretty convincing sign that she's mentally disturbed and in a lot of emotional pain, this is only a judgement, not an awareness.

Quote:

deranger said: someone who does have this time gap and is self-aware enough to perceive his own thinking mind, would see the crying woman, and instantly empathize and become aware/cognizant of the woman's emotional state.

Again, what if the woman is in reality a skilled actor performing a pre-determined role? You would be empathizing and becoming "aware" of an emotional state that doesn't even exist; this is how con-men and hustlers gain the sympathy of their mark. Instead of becoming aware of the Truth of the matter, you've only judged by appearances--and unless you're solely dealing with your own mind (and it is here that I agree with you that self-awareness comes easily with an empty mind void of thoughts), making judgements and assumptions about the rest of the world is unavoidable in our daily pragmatic lives.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

mrspirit2

Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 1,648
Loc:

Last seen: 10 hours, 25 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9265771 - 11/18/08 11:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Someone bashing his head against a wall is obviously not very self-aware. They are attached to their emotions, which isn't very self-aware. Obvious. It doesn't take any thought to recognize the dude is not very aware of his self and the emotions he is identified with.

Edited for repeated personal comments. Please refrain from personalisms.~V

I'm sure he's quite aware of the head bashing. There is this thing called pain. The fact that he is bashing his head into the wall tells me he is very much so self-aware and truly identifying with his emotions.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9265809 - 11/18/08 11:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'll respond later, I'm working and have no time to write an essay... :lol:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: mrspirit2]
#9265828 - 11/18/08 11:59 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mrspirit2 said:
The fact that he is bashing his head into the wall tells me he is very much so self-aware and truly identifying with his emotions.

One who is truly identified with his emotions is not very self-aware at all. Releasing one's emotional attachment requires self-awareness. So the guy bashing his head against the wall is obviously not very self-aware. Someone being emotional like this is not very self-aware. Because emotionalism is a less lucid state of mind than a mind with more developed self-awareness.

Now, we could say the guy bashing his head wasn't attached to his emotions. But he's obviously not very self-aware if he is intending to cause damage to his brain. If you think that is a heightened state of self-awareness, all the power to ya.

Unless you were being sarcastic.

Edited by deranger (11/18/08 12:06 PM)

Post Extras:

mrspirit2

Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 1,648
Loc:

Last seen: 10 hours, 25 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9266119 - 11/18/08 01:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I guess I'm speaking of a different self-awareness :lol:

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: mrspirit2]
#9266265 - 11/18/08 01:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

or a less aware state of self-awareness?

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9266280 - 11/18/08 01:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The problem with your line of reasoning, deranger, is that you constantly assume that a person's self-awareness is "obviously" this or "obviously" that.

Unless you're the person himself, you have no idea what state their self-awareness is in, or what emotions or thoughts they are feeling.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9266286 - 11/18/08 01:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
This sounds like judgment, not awareness.

It the moment I saw a women crying because she came to my house crying because of her abusive husband, I would be aware of her emotional state, and attachment to it. After would come judgment.

Quote:

Why is deep emotion a sign of a lack of self-awareness?

When someone is balling their eyes out, they are attached to emotion. Emotional attachment is not a sign of developed self-awareness.

Quote:

Is "dumbshit" a descriptive term used by your meditation instructors?

It was a joke. Try not to take me too seriously.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9266318 - 11/18/08 01:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
OK, I sense the difficulty here comes in interpretation of definitions.

Suppose we carefully examine the case of a woman bashing her head against the wall. First: you notice the woman engaged in this curious activity. You have become aware of the bashing, because you know that she is currently performing it--no argument here. (Let's leave aside metaphysical considerations of what is real and whether she is a dream character for now, shall we?)

Secondly, you use rational skills and deductive logic to infer that this woman is not feeling very well (i.e. you are making a guess about her internal, unknowable emotional state). This step requires inferential deduction and finally a basic assumption; an assumption that's probably true, sure, but an assumption nonetheless. If asked, you could not prove that the woman was feeling sad: what if the woman is masochistic and is internally loving the pain she's inducing on herself? What if she's figured out that the key to enlightenment involves bludgeoning one's head against a brick wall? (shades of P&S discussions, no less... ) The point is that you can't be absolutely certain that your judgement of this woman's internal state, or even self-awareness is correct.

We can't be aware of everyone's internal state, no.

But say you know this woman and she comes to your house crying because she was beaten and emotionally abused by her husband. Would you need to assume she is being emotional, or are you first aware of it?

Quote:

OK, perfect. Awareness implies having knowledge, or being aware of a factual situation. This implies that we are no longer dealing with subjective guesses, but rather the objective truth of a matter. I am currently aware that I am breathing, or that I am typing on a computer. Am I aware of what thoughts are going through your head while reading this post?

This isn't about your ideas of telepathy. You are misinterpreting.

Quote:

No, although I might have a pretty good idea. Are you aware what a complete stranger's emotional state is? Again, no, and even though her bashing her head against the wall might be a pretty convincing sign that she's mentally disturbed and in a lot of emotional pain, this is only a judgment, not an awareness.

Like above example -

If a woman comes to your house crying because of her husbands abuse, you are aware of her emotional state. First comes awareness, then comes the assumptions and judgment.

Quote:

Again, what if the woman is in reality a skilled actor performing a pre-determined role?

Then one could first be aware that the woman is acting, and identified to that act/thought.

Again, this isn't about reading someone's mind. You're misinterpreting.

Quote:

You would be empathizing and becoming "aware" of an emotional state that doesn't even exist; this is how con-men and hustlers gain the sympathy of their mark. Instead of becoming aware of the Truth of the matter, you've only judged by appearances--and unless you're solely dealing with your own mind (and it is here that I agree with you that self-awareness comes easily with an empty mind void of thoughts), making judgements and assumptions about the rest of the world is unavoidable in our daily pragmatic lives.

No, we can't always read minds or be directly aware of everyone's emotional states.

But we can be aware of how identified they are to their emotions/thoughts.

Of course we can assume we are aware that they are identified, but this is mental projection - which comes after direct awareness.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9266334 - 11/18/08 01:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
The problem with your line of reasoning

in your right opinion.

Quote:

, deranger, is that you constantly assume that a person's self-awareness is "obviously" this or "obviously" that.

No, you've misinterpreted. When a man has a gun to his head crying because he hates his life, I do not need to assume anything. I know, and am aware, that he is identified with his emotions and thought process.

Quote:

Unless you're the person himself, you have no idea what state their self-awareness is in, or what emotions or thoughts they are feeling.

See above example.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9266363 - 11/18/08 01:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
But say you know this woman and she comes to your house crying because she was beaten and emotionally abused by her husband. Would you need to assume she is being emotional, or are you first aware of it?

How do you know she was beaten and emotionally abused by her husband? Because she told you? Unless you've seen the cause, you cannot be aware of any emotional state; you can only judge with a good degree of likelihood. She could be lying that her husband beat her to gain affection from you. She could simply be a pathological liar, or any other alternative: the point is that you don't know and can only make guesses (judgements).

Moreover, even if you saw her husband beat her and the woman subsequently cry, you are still only judging her emotional state via her external behavior--something that is not 100% correlated to an internal emotional state. True awareness is impossible.

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Again, what if the woman is in reality a skilled actor performing a pre-determined role?

Then one could first be aware that the woman is acting, and identified to that act/thought.

How do you know that the woman is acting? You can never be certain, or aware, of any person's internal emotional state.

You keep using examples such as if a woman exhibits X emotion because Y to prove that you are aware of X. This is faulty logic; you are assuming that you know, with absolute certitude, what Y is. Are you capable of reading minds, or are you perhaps omniscient into every factor that influences a person? Certainly you might have excellent inferential powers, but these are not accurate all the time.

Quote:

deranger said:
No, we can't always read minds or be directly aware of everyone's emotional states.

But we can be aware of how identified they are to their emotions/thoughts.

How can you become aware of how identified they are to their emotions/thoughts when you can never know what their emotions or thoughts are?

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9266375 - 11/18/08 01:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think this has all been explained a few times.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9266378 - 11/18/08 01:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So, according to your definition of what constitutes "self-awareness," one cannot simultaneously experience deep emotions and be self-aware? This definition seems to deny a major aspect of our humanity, which is our emotional experience of reality. What self shall we become aware of--one devoid of emotionality?

You've stated all the behaviors which are "obvious" signs of a lack of self-awareness: TV-watching, whiskey-drinking, radio-listening, head-bashing, crying, Presidenting ( :grin:

)...how do you KNOW that these behaviors cannot exist side-by-side with developed self-awareness? Upon what human role model do you base this strict lifestyle?

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9266451 - 11/18/08 01:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
How do you know she was beaten and emotionally abused by her husband? Because she told you? Unless you've seen the cause, you cannot be aware of any emotional state; you can only judge with a good degree of likelihood. She could be lying that her husband beat her to gain affection from you. She could simply be a pathological liar, or any other alternative: the point is that you don't know and can only make guesses (judgements).

If the woman is crying she is in an emotional state. This is emotional attachment. It doesn't take any judgment to recognize this.

Quote:

Again, what if the woman is in reality a skilled actor performing a pre-determined role?

Then one could first be aware that the woman is acting, and identified to that act/thought.

Quote:

How do you know that the woman is acting?

Is any activity not an act? The woman would be identified with the act.

Quote:

Are you capable of reading minds, or are you perhaps omniscient into every factor that influences a person?

Neither, sounds like you are misinterpreting.

Quote:

How can you become aware of how identified they are to their emotions/thoughts when you can never know what their emotions or thoughts are?

When someone is crying, they are emotional. This is identification to emotion. Awareness can see this without the thinking mind coming in to assume.

When someone is acting, they are identified with their act. Awareness can see this identification to act.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9266504 - 11/18/08 02:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
When someone is crying, they are emotional. This is identification to emotion. Awareness can see this without the thinking mind coming in to assume.

When someone is crying, all we know is that they're crying. Behavior does not automatically imply internal states; this is how skilled actors can convince us that they're sad when in reality they feel nothing of the sort.

Quote:

deranger said:
When someone is acting, they are identified with their act. Awareness can see this identification to act.

OK, here you address the possibility that the woman is acting, but I'm confused as to your stance. We can certainly be aware that the woman is behaving in a particular fashion, but we can not be aware that she is acting (i.e., her internal states belie her external behavior) unless we know for certain what her internal state is.

One can be aware of another person's behavior, but one can never be aware of another person's emotional state. Now, I think what you're trying to get at is that certain behaviors allow us to assume that a person isn't very self-aware (i.e. I would agree with you that a person who slugs back a handle of JD every day is most likely less self-aware than a person who meditates constantly), but the point is that you cannot absolutely proclaim that you are aware of their self-awareness, as this implies knowledge and certainty that simply does not exist.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9266516 - 11/18/08 02:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
So, according to your definition of what constitutes "self-awareness," one cannot simultaneously experience deep emotions and be self-aware?

One who cries regularly due to abuse lacks developed self-awareness. He is self-aware to an extent, while engaged in crying, but this is not a very heightened state of self-awareness. In deep state of meditation such emotions are released, and bliss is experienced. If you consider bliss to be an emotion, it is not an emotion of that of crying, or being identified emo states. Bliss is not emo.

Quote:

This definition seems to deny a major aspect of our humanity, which is our emotional experience of reality. What self shall we become aware of--one devoid of emotionality?

Being identified to emotion/thought is not the same as experiencing bliss and very heightened states of self-awareness.

Quote:

You've stated all the behaviors which are "obvious" signs of a lack of self-awareness: TV-watching, whiskey-drinking, radio-listening, head-bashing, crying, Presidenting ()...how do you KNOW that these behaviors cannot exist side-by-side with developed self-awareness? Upon what human role model do you base this strict lifestyle?

Because all of these behaviors are acts of unawareness and ignorance. All of these people are identified to what they do (tv watching, head-bashing etc.). It's not hard to be aware of their identification to these acts.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9266551 - 11/18/08 02:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Isn't someone who spends 10 hours per day meditating similarly "identified" with their act of meditation?

Look, I think that people can obtain some real benefit from relaxation & focused meditation, but it is simply unrealistic to propose that the only "self-aware" emotional states occur during deep meditation.

Jack Kornfield has a terrific book titled "After the Ecstasy, The Laundry," in which he addresses the reality of integrating meditative insight into everyday life. I highly recommend it.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9266560 - 11/18/08 02:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
When someone is crying, all we know is that they're crying.

And we could be aware that they are identified to their act of crying.

Quote:

OK, here you address the possibility that the woman is acting, but I'm confused as to your stance. We can certainly be aware that the woman is behaving in a particular fashion, but we can not be aware that she is acting

We could be aware that she is identified with her acts.

Quote:

but the point is that you cannot absolutely proclaim that you are aware of their self-awareness, as this implies knowledge and certainty that simply does not exist.

If I am aware of someones attachment to their acts/emotions/etc, I could be somewhat aware of their state of awareness.

When someone is crying (again), they are attached to that emotion. I see this attachment and I see lack of self-awareness. If this crying person were to have a developed sense of self-awareness, he/she would release the emotion and release identification to it.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9266566 - 11/18/08 02:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

People are always making claims for meditation that they have never experienced for themselves. Of course the "master" has the experience and they are sure. It's a form of idol worship. Like with rock stars.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9266569 - 11/18/08 02:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Please clarify what you mean when you say that an individual is identified to a particular action.

Are you saying that whenever I do a particular action, I'm de facto identified or attached to that action?

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9266601 - 11/18/08 02:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Isn't someone who spends 10 hours per day meditating similarly "identified" with their act of meditation

Meditation is not acting. In true meditation (in deep states) there is no acting. There is simply being. There is identification with the ongoing moment/present. But this identification is of a heightened sense of self-awareness.

Meditation could be considered an act, but once one is in a deep meditative state, there is no acting, there is simply being.

Quote:

Look, I think that people can obtain some real benefit from relaxation & focused meditation, but it is simply unrealistic to propose that the only "self-aware" emotional states occur during deep meditation.

Bliss occurs in deep meditative states. Bliss will not be experienced in much intensity if one has not developed a deep and lucid sense of self-awareness.

I have to work again, so I won't respond to any further replies till later :smile:

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9266657 - 11/18/08 02:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Meditation involves holding a particular body position & a particular mental attitude for an extended period of time, thus it is an action. If one says that they "meditate," they are describing a behavior in which they engage, and not simply a way of being.

It is certainly possible for a meditator to be identified with and/or attached to their behavior of meditating. Some whom I have met IRL appear to believe that going through the motions of meditation automatically makes them more self-aware, though they do not apply the techniques to their everyday living. (An example I've often cited here is the devotee of meditation who begins to fidget and fuss when the line at the grocery store is too long. :lol:

)

I'll ask again: do you think that emotions automatically signify that someone lacks self-awareness? All humans experience emotions, and sometimes these emotions are quite intense. How can you state as fact that someone who fully experiences deep emotions is demonstrating a lack of self-awareness?

Post Extras:

Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9266874 - 11/18/08 03:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Isn't someone who spends 10 hours per day meditating similarly "identified" with their act of meditation

Meditation is not acting. In true meditation (in deep states) there is no acting. There is simply being. There is identification with the ongoing moment/present. But this identification is of a heightened sense of self-awareness.

Anything can be made into a meditation. Watching TV all day can be done in a deep, self-aware state.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9266993 - 11/18/08 03:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Please clarify what you mean when you say that an individual is identified to a particular action.

If you were not identified with thinking, you wouldn't be thinking.

Quote:

Are you saying that whenever I do a particular action, I'm de facto identified or attached to that action?

If you were taking a walk down the road, yet were not identified/attached to that act of walking down the road, would you be walking down the road?

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9266999 - 11/18/08 03:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Meditation involves holding a particular body position & a particular mental attitude for an extended period of time, thus it is an action. If one says that they "meditate," they are describing a behavior in which they engage, and not simply a way of being.

Your meditation is not everyone's meditation.

"Despite what one might think, meditation is not an act of doing - it is a state of awareness."

"True meditation is not an act. When one is in deep meditation, there is no acting. There is simply awareness."

"Dhyana or meditation is not an act but a quality which helps us have a distinct blissful experience where we can separate the mind, body and self."

"Any joy you experience in life is from the depth of your self. When you let go of all that you hold on to and settle down, you will be centered in that space. That is called meditation. Actually, meditation is not an act; it is the art of doing nothing! The rest in meditation is deeper than the deepest sleep that you can ever have because in meditation you transcend all desires. This brings such coolness to the brain and it is like servicing or overhauling the whole body-mind complex."

"Meditation is not an act; meditation is a state of being. When one ceases
to identify with thought, the mind becomes quiet. Then an abiding peace is
experienced as a state of beingness, of Oneness with the moment,
not as a brief, time-bound act followed by return to wakeful agitation

Thought is a process emanating from the past, known in the present and
projecting into the future. Thought destroys the experience of the moment.
When one is thinking, postulating, analyzing what is experienced, there is
no existence here and now; the moment is destroyed. In this sense, thought
is a kind of death."

"Meditation is not a technique.

Meditation is not an act.

Meditation is not an intention.

Meditation is not a desire.

To what do the technique, the act, the desire and the intention lead?

Breathing dies in the vacuity of silence.

Breathing arises from the vacuity of silence.

What do breathing and the absence of breathing share?

Both refer to a subject.

This subject, what it is?

What is the background in which breathing and no-breathing appear and disappear?

What is the link which unifies breathing, absence of breathing, silence, body and thought?

Physical and psychological diseases are the expression of a friction of energies.

The fluidity of the movement of energies is disturbed by some resistances.

These resistances are the reflection of a fear. Fear is a reaction.

A reaction implicates someone who reacts.

This someone, where is he?

Can we situate, locate him?

Is he real or is he only a ghost?

Returning to the source of the disease needs to go the root of the self.

This ascent against the current of thought and belief prunes the weeds of the mind mirages.

The liberation is a recognition of the impossibility to perceive the perceiver.

The object brings to the objectless subject.

The absence reveals the presence."

Quote:

It is certainly possible for a meditator to be identified with and/or attached to their behavior of meditating.

Yes, it is. But an experienced meditator does not meditate out of the attachment or desire to meditate, but rather to simply become one with the moment, which is extremely liberating.

Quote:

Some whom I have met IRL appear to believe that going through the motions of meditation automatically makes them more self-aware, though they do not apply the techniques to their everyday living. (An example I've often cited here is the devotee of meditation who begins to fidget and fuss when the line at the grocery store is too long. )

Then he isn't a very experienced meditator, if he is attached to his fidgeting and fussing emotional states.

You should meet some of the people at my local Vipassana retreat. All they do is meditate, pretty much. Host 10 day and 30 day meditation retreats where they sit in silence for 10 hours a day, every day, just watching everything that comes into being. Some experience ego-loss. This is the kind of meditation I'm talking about. They will not fidget or fuss in a long line up at a carnival, nor cry for hours because they couldn't get cotton candy.

Quote:

I'll ask again: do you think that emotions automatically signify that someone lacks self-awareness? All humans experience emotions, and sometimes these emotions are quite intense. How can you state as fact that someone who fully experiences deep emotions is demonstrating a lack of self-awareness?

Being attached to an emotion (say crying) signifies that one is attached to the emotion. This is a sign of lack of self-awareness. If they were to have a developed sense of self-awareness, they would let the whiny cry-cry go.

Post Extras:

Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267014 - 11/18/08 03:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Your meditation is not everyone's meditation.

Do you read what you type here? You make some good points.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9267016 - 11/18/08 03:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Anything can be made into a meditation. Watching TV all day can be done in a deep, self-aware state.

Yes, meditation can be an attitude that can be had all day long. Being aware of every moment, every thought that comes, every emotion that comes, every sound that comes out of the TV.

But Television is noise. Meditation is silence, the quieting of mind. TV hinders meditative absorption.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267026 - 11/18/08 03:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Are you saying that whenever I do a particular action, I'm de facto identified or attached to that action?

If you were taking a walk down the road, yet were not identified/attached to that act of walking down the road, would you be walking down the road?

If I'm meditating but not identified or attached to meditating, would I still be meditating? I still must desire to meditate in order to start meditating, otherwise I would never be able to start in the first place.

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

It is certainly possible for a meditator to be identified with and/or attached to their behavior of meditating.

Yes, it is. But an experienced meditator does not meditate out of the attachment or desire to meditate, but rather to simply become one with the moment, which is extremely liberating.

I don't watch TV out of the attachment or desire to watch TV, but simply to become one with the liberating moment. Who are you to say that I am less self-aware than anybody else?

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9267043 - 11/18/08 03:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
People are always making claims for meditation that they have never experienced for themselves. Of course the "master" has the experience and they are sure. It's a form of idol worship. Like with rock stars.

Do you know all of these people? I don't think so. That's quite the assumption you just made there.

But it has its truth. But not in all cases, that's for sure.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267094 - 11/18/08 03:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
If I'm meditating but not identified or attached to meditating, would I still be meditating?

In deep states of meditative absorption, does one label what they are doing?

Quote:

I still must desire to meditate in order to start meditating, otherwise I would never be able to start in the first place.

Some desire can lead to self-growth. But once in deep meditation, there is not more desire.

Quote:

I don't watch TV out of the attachment or desire to watch TV, but simply to become one with the liberating moment.

With all that noise the TV puts out, I highly doubt so.

Quote:

Who are you to say that I am less self-aware than anybody else?

Now we're just playing games. I try not to compare the self-awareness of others. It may seem like I have been comparing, but my intent was not to do so. Such comparisons are examples to help get my point across.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9267104 - 11/18/08 03:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Do you read what you type here?

No, I'm a bot.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267141 - 11/18/08 03:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said: I try not to compare the self-awareness of others.

It's remarkably difficult to read someone's intentions when they say things like:

Quote:

deranger said: Because I have noticed it within myself through meditation and high-dose tripping, and have noticed it in the people who run the local Vipassana retreat whom meditate 10 hours a day for weeks, every month, every year. They are extremely self-aware compared to me, it is blatantly obvious.

Quote:

deranger said:
I do not assess, I am aware of their internal state. The way they communicate, how they are so compassionate and loving and friendly. I am aware that they are very self-aware.

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
*sigh* I am not negating anything, I am questioning your statement of supposed fact with regard to the internal state of other human beings.

It might be that they are more self-aware, I don't know. My point is that neither do you. You are guessing & stating it as a fact.

Well, I know it as fact.

Quote:

deranger said: Just as I am aware that George bush lacks self-awareness. That is a fact.

All of which statements imply an obvious comparison of self-awareness and an assumption that you can know, with utter certainty, the self-awareness of others (not to mention being aware of a person's internal emotional state, which is impossible.)

If your point isn't that Bush has less self-awareness than someone else (which again, I'll agree is likely but certainly not a fact), then what is your point?

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267179 - 11/18/08 03:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
People are always making claims for meditation that they have never experienced for themselves. Of course the "master" has the experience and they are sure. It's a form of idol worship. Like with rock stars.

Do you know all of these people? I don't think so. That's quite the assumption you just made there.

But it has its truth. But not in all cases, that's for sure.

I'm talking about the ones I know. I never said all people.

Edited by Veritas (11/18/08 03:55 PM)

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267197 - 11/18/08 03:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Ah, good, lots of uncredited quotes which state that meditation is not an act. I am convinced! :lol:

Meditation is just as much an action and a behavior as watching TV. It is not WHAT you are doing, it is what you are bringing to what you are doing. IMO, it is erroneous to claim that all meditation is more conducive to the development of self-awareness than all TV-watching. Meditation is simply a behavior, not a magic wand.

I think that it is also erroneous to claim that emotions are indicative of a lack of self-awareness. Emotions are part of being human, though being controlled by those emotions can create Hell on Earth. Experiencing emotions is inevitable, attachment is not. You are equating the expression of emotion with attachment to the emotion, though the two are not the same.

Deriding and denigrating the emotional aspect of our humanity is more indicative of internal conflict than equanimity.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9267216 - 11/18/08 03:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Humanity sucks. :thumbup:

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9267224 - 11/18/08 03:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That was definitely not my point.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267238 - 11/18/08 03:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
It's remarkably difficult to read someone's intentions when they say things like:

Quote:

deranger said: Because I have noticed it within myself through meditation and high-dose tripping, and have noticed it in the people who run the local Vipassana retreat whom meditate 10 hours a day for weeks, every month, every year. They are extremely self-aware compared to me, it is blatantly obvious.

I compared myself to the people at the local Vipassana retreat as an example to convey my point. I am aware that they are more self-aware than me. Don't believe me if you want.

But in day to day life, I try not to focus on comparing people.

Quote:

All of which statements imply an obvious comparison of self-awareness and an assumption that you can know, with utter certainty, the self-awareness of others (not to mention being aware of a person's internal emotional state, which is impossible.)

If your point isn't that Bush has less self-awareness than someone else (which again, I'll agree is likely but certainly not a fact), then what is your point?

Is it not fact to you that George Bush lacks self awareness compared to the person who wrote all of this? -

http://www.swamij.com/sitemap.htm

If you don't know this subjectively as fact, that's cool. But I know, personally, that George Bush lacks awareness compared to the creators of that website, or very experienced Vipassana meditators.

This comparison is an example to prove what I am trying to convey.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267256 - 11/18/08 04:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm fine with you expressing your subjective opinion on relative awareness levels. In fact, if people never expressed their opinions the world would be a much more boring place.

But please don't call your opinion a fact. It's not that I don't believe what you say, it's that I don't believe that what you say is automatically the truth just because you're "aware" of it.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9267260 - 11/18/08 04:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Ah, good, lots of uncredited quotes which state that meditation is not an act. I am convinced! Meditation is just as much an action and a behavior as watching TV. It is not WHAT you are doing, it is what you are bringing to what you are doing. IMO, it is erroneous to claim that all meditation is more conducive to the development of self-awareness than all TV-watching. Meditation is simply a behavior, not a magic wand.

I disagree with your interpretation of meditation. There's no hope for us left.

Quote:

I think that it is also erroneous to claim that emotions are indicative of a lack of self-awareness.

You are misreading my words. Attachment to emotion indicates lack of self-awareness.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267261 - 11/18/08 04:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

But it's so obvious! :mad:

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267270 - 11/18/08 04:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Right, and expression of emotions indicates attachment. :rolleyes:

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9267277 - 11/18/08 04:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
That was definitely not my point.

I was just demonstrating my internal conflict in case you hadn't noticed.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267279 - 11/18/08 04:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I'm fine with you expressing your subjective opinion on relative awareness levels. In fact, if people never expressed their opinions the world would be much more boring place.

But please don't call your opinion a fact. It's not that I don't believe what you say, it's that I don't believe that what you say is automatically the truth just because you're "aware" of it.

A fact is truth.

It is true to me that Bush lacks self-awareness compared to an experienced Vipassana meditator.

Expressing this is an opinion. An opinion you can disagree with, that is fine. But what is true to me is true to me.

I am aware this very moment. This is truth. Expressing this to you right now is opinion.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9267294 - 11/18/08 04:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Right, and expression of emotions indicates attachment.

When someone is balling their eyes out, are they not attached to their emotional state?

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267301 - 11/18/08 04:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I am currently aware that 2 + 2 = 5.

This is truth.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267305 - 11/18/08 04:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It is just as true then, that meditators are full of horse pucky. :shrug:

I mean it's true to me.

Of course that makes truth into a joke.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267311 - 11/18/08 04:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Fact:

1.the quality of being actual

2 a: something that has actual existence
b: an actual occurrence

3. a piece of information presented as having objective reality.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267328 - 11/18/08 04:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Right, and expression of emotions indicates attachment.

When someone is balling their eyes out, are they not attached to their emotional state?

Not unless they cling to the state after the initial emotional response has passed. BTW, it's "bawling."

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9267351 - 11/18/08 04:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe he meant balling. :doggystyle:

One does get kind of attached to it.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267352 - 11/18/08 04:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I am currently aware that 2 + 2 = 5.

This is truth.

If that is the truth to you, cool.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9267360 - 11/18/08 04:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Fact:

1.the quality of being actual

2 a: something that has actual existence
b: an actual occurrence

3. a piece of information presented as having objective reality.

Yeah, and people actually do become attached to their emotions/thought patterns.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9267366 - 11/18/08 04:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Right, and expression of emotions indicates attachment.

When someone is balling their eyes out, are they not attached to their emotional state?

Not unless they cling to the state after the initial emotional response has passed. BTW, it's "bawling."

I'm not talking about after the emotional response has passed.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267392 - 11/18/08 04:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
I am currently aware that 2 + 2 = 5.

This is truth.

If that is the truth to you, cool.

Awesome. Might I suggest appending IMO or some other signification in front of statements that are actually opinions and not declarations of objective reality, just so we know for future reference?

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267435 - 11/18/08 04:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Right, and expression of emotions indicates attachment.

When someone is balling their eyes out, are they not attached to their emotional state?

Not unless they cling to the state after the initial emotional response has passed. BTW, it's "bawling."

I'm not talking about after the emotional response has passed.

Then you're not talking about attachment. Attachment, also called "grasping" or "clinging," is a mental action in which one refuses to allow impermanent states to pass. When someone is attached to an emotional state, they use their thoughts to artificially prolong or intensify the state when it begins to pass.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267450 - 11/18/08 04:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
I am currently aware that 2 + 2 = 5.

This is truth.

If that is the truth to you, cool.

Awesome. Might I suggest appending IMO or some other signification in front of statements that are actually opinions and not declarations of objective reality, just so we know for future reference?

Actually, I think it is objectively true that Bush lacks self-awareness compared to some people.

This is an opinion I just spouted, but I feel it to be very true.

You don't have to agree with me that this is true, that's cool.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267470 - 11/18/08 04:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, but this is P&S. Do you have a justification for this statement? :wink:

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9267535 - 11/18/08 04:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Then you're not talking about attachment. Attachment, also called "grasping" or "clinging," is a mental action in which one refuses to allow impermanent states to pass. When someone is attached to an emotional state, they use their thoughts to artificially prolong or intensify the state when it begins to pass.

So when one is "bawling" their eyes out, they are not attached/identified to that emotion?

Quote:

at⋅tached
–adjective
1. joined; connected; bound.
2. having a wall in common with another building (opposed to detached ): an attached house.
3. Zoology. permanently fixed to the substratum; sessile.

When one is bawling, they are connected to their emotional state. I don't get your logic.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267550 - 11/18/08 04:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Yes, but this is P&S. Do you have a justification for this statement?

Can I prove I'm on mushrooms hallucinating myself as a strand of DNA?

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267557 - 11/18/08 04:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

No, because that's a subjective statement of personal experience that can't be denied.

Saying Bush has less self-awareness is an objective statement that should be backed up or justified in some manner if you hope to use it in philosophical debate.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267559 - 11/18/08 04:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

By that definition, everyone is "attached" to their emotional state 24/7, as we are always connected to our emotions. We are discussing the Buddhist concept of attachment, which is a mental habit of denying the impermanence of reality.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267583 - 11/18/08 04:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
No, because that's a subjective statement of personal experience that can't be denied.

Saying Bush has less self-awareness is an objective statement that should be backed up or justified in some manner if you hope to use it in philosophical debate.

Proof of one's level of self-awareness cannot be shown.

Let's keep it about the ideas, please. ~V

Edited by Veritas (11/18/08 04:44 PM)

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267598 - 11/18/08 04:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said: Proof of one's level of self-awareness cannot be shown.

Yes, I can never prove my own level of self-awareness.

Neither can I prove, or say that it is "truth", anything about Bush's level of self-awareness.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Edited by Veritas (11/18/08 04:46 PM)

Post Extras:

Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267618 - 11/18/08 04:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

One could certainly discuss specific behaviors which strongly suggest a lack of self-awareness, however. IMO, it makes more sense to express such things tentatively, as none of us truly know the "rules" regarding awareness.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9267630 - 11/18/08 04:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
By that definition, everyone is "attached" to their emotional state 24/7, as we are always connected to our emotions.

Do some emotions (such as bliss) not require a more self-aware state to experience?

Quote:

We are discussing the Buddhist concept of attachment, which is a mental habit of denying the impermanence of reality.

You don't need to tell me what attachment is. :wink:

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9267635 - 11/18/08 04:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The first rule of Awareness Club is we don't talk about Awareness Club. :nono:

Did I just break the rule? :confused:

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267639 - 11/18/08 04:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Yes, I can never prove my own level of self-awareness.

Neither can I prove, or say that it is "truth", anything about Bush's level of self-awareness

So you do not know it as fact that Bush is less self-aware than anyone else in the world?

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9267645 - 11/18/08 04:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
One could certainly discuss specific behaviors which strongly suggest a lack of self-awareness, however. IMO, it makes more sense to express such things tentatively, as none of us truly know the "rules" regarding awareness.

Right. I can offer a convincing argument for why Bush is less self-aware than others, or state reasons that might suggest his gross moral turpitude and propensity to choke on pretzels, but I can certainly not claim any of these opinions to be the absolute truth.

Quote:

deranger said:
So you do not know it as fact that Bush is less self-aware than anyone else in the world?

Exactly... this is not a fact, it is a conjecture. (And I'm sure someone, somewhere is less self aware than Bush. :tongue:

)

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267664 - 11/18/08 04:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Satan tried to choke him with a pretzel, but God saved him to do his dirty work.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Veritas]
#9267666 - 11/18/08 04:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
One could certainly discuss specific behaviors which strongly suggest a lack of self-awareness, however. IMO, it makes more sense to express such things tentatively, as none of us truly know the "rules" regarding awareness.

No, that is right. But I'm not claiming to know the rules regarding awareness.

Do you never sense the lack of self-awareness in others?

If you know that someone is depressed, do you not sense they lack self-awareness?

I know for a fact that my brother lacks self-awareness, because he is somewhat depressed. I don't need to guess this, I know this. I can feel him.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267678 - 11/18/08 04:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
I know for a fact that my brother lacks self-awareness, because he is somewhat depressed. I don't need to guess this, I know this. I can feel him.

And there's not the slightest possibility that your intuition or "knowledge" is wrong?

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267682 - 11/18/08 04:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:deranger said:
So you do not know it as fact that Bush is less self-aware than anyone else in the world?

Exactly... this is not a fact, it is a conjecture. (And I'm sure someone, somewhere is less self aware than Bush. :tongue:

)

Ok, don't know it as fact. That's cool.

I know for one there are more self-aware people than bush. I don't need to form an opinion to realize this. It's a pretty simple realization.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267702 - 11/18/08 05:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You already have formed an opinion, though. Question your own beliefs... why do you feel as if more people are more self-aware than Bush?

If you can't formulate a cogent reason for this, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate one's belief paradigm.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267757 - 11/18/08 05:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
You already have formed an opinion, though. Question your own beliefs... why do you feel as if more people are more self-aware than Bush?

If you can't formulate a cogent reason for this, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate one's belief paradigm.

Like I said before, everything said here is opinion. However what lies behind the opinion is fact, that Bush lacks a sense of self-awareness compared to some other people.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267765 - 11/18/08 05:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

deranger said:
I know for a fact that my brother lacks self-awareness, because he is somewhat depressed. I don't need to guess this, I know this. I can feel him.

And there's not the slightest possibility that your intuition or "knowledge" is wrong?

No, because I empathize deeply with my brother and feel him.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9267786 - 11/18/08 05:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
The first rule of Awareness Club is we don't talk about Awareness Club.

Feck the Awareness Club.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267791 - 11/18/08 05:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Alright then; please continue enjoying your facts and perfect knowledge of the world.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267814 - 11/18/08 05:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Alright then; please continue enjoying your facts and perfect knowledge of the world.

I am skeptical of all my projections. However empathizing with my brother and feeling his depression is not projection.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267824 - 11/18/08 05:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You're not a true skeptic unless you're skeptical that your brother's feeling depressed.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267840 - 11/18/08 05:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
You're not a true skeptic unless you're skeptical that your brother's feeling depressed.

Bullshit

I know my brother well enough to know and empathize with his emotional state.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267870 - 11/18/08 05:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, close friends of abused women often "know" them well enough only to find out years later that they were being constantly emotionally hurt and hit by their husbands at night.

Again, assumptions about the internal emotional states of other people are only that: assumptions, and nothing more.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267918 - 11/18/08 05:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Yeah, close friends of abused women often "know" them well enough only to find out years later that they were being constantly emotionally hurt and hit by their husbands at night.

Again, assumptions about the internal emotional states of other people are only that: assumptions, and nothing more.

this is about empathizing. we can't always empathize with everyone. but i can empathize with a drunken madman beating his wife. i can empathize with a crying woman. i can empathize with my brother. i feel them, to some degree. this is not assumption. assumption is of thought. i am not thinking about my brothers emotional state, i am feeling his emotional state.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267926 - 11/18/08 05:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

And the friends of those abused women were "feeling" their emotional state of happiness and a well-lived life too, only to find out that their feelings of empathy had been wholly mistaken as to their target state.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267935 - 11/18/08 05:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

How many fucking more pages of

"Did!"

"Did not!"

must aware readers suffer through? :mad2:

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9267949 - 11/18/08 05:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
And the friends of those abused women were "feeling" their emotional state of happiness and a well-lived life too, only to find out that their feelings of empathy had been wholly mistaken as to their target state.

can you explain in English how that is relevant to what I just said?

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9267954 - 11/18/08 05:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Only Time will tell. :crazy2:

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9267967 - 11/18/08 05:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Let's say a woman A has a close friend, B.

A and B meet for lunch and other activities every day. B feels close empathy with her friend, and notices that A is filled with joie de vivre, happiness, and an exultation for life.

Fifteen years go by.

Suddenly, A breaks up with her husband. It turns out that A had been getting repeatedly abused at the hands of her husband to the point of being in absolute depression while at home. B is absolutely shocked.

B's empathy for A's "happiness", like your empathy for your brother's "depression", are merely our best guesses as to other individual's emotional states.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9268012 - 11/18/08 05:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Let's say a woman A has a close friend, B.

A and B meet for lunch and other activities every day. B feels close empathy with her friend, and notices that A is filled with joie de vivre, happiness, and an exultation for life.

Fifteen years go by.

Suddenly, A breaks up with her husband. It turns out that A had been getting repeatedly abused at the hands of her husband to the point of being in absolute depression while at home. B is absolutely shocked.

B's empathy for A's "happiness", like your empathy for your brother's "depression", are merely our best guesses as to other individual's emotional states.

This is not relevant, and shows no understanding of what I am trying to convey.

Empathy is not best guessing.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9268025 - 11/18/08 05:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Is it possible to feel empathy with a skilled actor? Do you feel touched with sadness when you see a tragedy, even when the portrayed actors feel none of the same emotions? (Disregarding method acting, of course.)

External behavior (such as that which is interpreted by empathy) does not give us a clear window into internal feelings.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9268044 - 11/18/08 05:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Is it possible to feel empathy with a skilled actor?

it may be possible to empathize with their skilled acting, if you knew they were acting.

Quote:

empathy

2: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner ; also : the capacity for this

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9268056 - 11/18/08 05:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, but how do you know the feelings and thoughts of others so you can make sure that your empathy is correct and not misled, as in the case of woman A?

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9268061 - 11/18/08 05:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
External behavior (such as that which is interpreted by empathy) does not give us a clear window into internal feelings.

no, but deep states of empathy do.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9268067 - 11/18/08 05:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
External behavior (such as that which is interpreted by empathy) does not give us a clear window into internal feelings.

no, but deep states of empathy do.

I accept that there's a definition of a certain state, like you say. How can you, personally, tell the difference between what is true empathy and what is merely delusion?

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9268072 - 11/18/08 05:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Yes, but how do you know the feelings and thoughts of others so you can make sure that your empathy is correct and not misled, as in the case of woman A?

scratch woman A, I don't like her.

take my brother for example. i can empathize with him deeply enough to become aware of his internal emotional state, and how attached he is to the process.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9268082 - 11/18/08 05:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I accept that there's a definition of a certain state, like you say. How can you, personally, tell the difference between what is true empathy and what is merely delusion?

it's all about recognition of projection.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9268281 - 11/18/08 06:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If one is deluded, one will falsely recognize that there is no projection. :shrug:

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9268331 - 11/18/08 06:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
If one is deluded, one will falsely recognize that there is no projection.

that's what self-reflection is for.

recognizing one's self-delusion.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9268412 - 11/18/08 06:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Self-reflection can't help if the part that's doing the recognizing is deluded, no?

The ultimate biased observer is always yourself.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9268595 - 11/18/08 07:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Self-reflection can't help if the part that's doing the recognizing is deluded, no?

can awareness, detached from the thinking mind be deluded? or is it the thinking mind that is deluded?

Quote:

The ultimate biased observer is always yourself.

which self? there's i, and there's me; which one are you referring to?

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9268612 - 11/18/08 07:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Can a microscope inspecting itself find a flaw in the lens that it's using to inspect?

And sure, awareness (as in, empty mind, result of meditation awareness) cannot be deluded in this sense. But if you say that you're "aware" of another person's emotional state, this implies the thought, or feeling, that X (where X is the sentence "someone else is currently feeling happy/depressed/whatever"). It is this second sense of awareness that can most certainly be deluded.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Edited by deCypher (11/18/08 07:14 PM)

Post Extras:

daytripper23
?

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9268616 - 11/18/08 07:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Speculation, an idea that is fundamental to philosophical inquiry, (basically what we are blaming each other with around here), is derived from the latin speculum, which means to mirror, or reflect.

So in this sense, it is conceivable that at one time, it actually meant the same thing to speculate, as it was to be human, to rationalize. (or that is how we distinguish ourselves from animals at least, self reflection; i.e. the rational human.)

I thought this was a pretty interesting tidbit. Our language has really evolved from there it seems.

Carry on then...

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9268653 - 11/18/08 07:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Can a microscope inspecting itself find a flaw in the lens that it's using to inspect?

if it were to practice self-reflection, maybe so.

or maybe if the microscope were to dose 800mcg of lsd whilst smoking tonnes of pot on the come up, it'd become aware of it's own lens.

Post Extras:

Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9268664 - 11/18/08 07:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Being aware of it's lens isn't the same as seeing the lens as it truly is.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9269105 - 11/18/08 08:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe so, indeed. The point is that one cannot be certain.

Drugs and meditation only give another perspective from which to look out from; they don't wholly remove the lens and let us stare into the face of undifferentiated Truth.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Sleepwalker]
#9269415 - 11/18/08 08:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Being aware of it's lens isn't the same as seeing the lens as it truly is.

How so?

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9269467 - 11/18/08 09:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Maybe so, indeed. The point is that one cannot be certain.

Is it not possible that one can be certain?

Quote:

Drugs and meditation only

no, not only. never only.

Quote:

Drugs and meditation only give another perspective from which to look out from; they don't wholly remove the lens and let us stare into the face of undifferentiated Truth.

Psychedelics and meditation can help one to be more aware of the lens. There is no removal of the lens. But there is cleansing of the lens. And there is the dirtying of the lens. True meditation cleanses the lens.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9269495 - 11/18/08 09:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It's possible, sure, but one can never be absolutely sure that one isn't just looking out at the world through yet another (albeit slightly more transparent) lens.

I think meditation and psychedelics (and yes, other tools as well) can certainly help give us a clearer perspective, but this is far from saying that deep meditation or a high dose LSD trip will completely remove all beliefs, predispositions, and biased perspectives that we tend to view the world through.

I mean, hell, maybe they do--the point is that we'd never know.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9269524 - 11/18/08 09:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
It's possible, sure, but one can never be certain that one isn't just looking out at the world through yet another (albeit slightly more transparent) lens.

I certain I just had a thought come into mind. I am certain I am aware right now. I am certain I am not as aware as I could be.

Quote:

I think meditation and psychedelics (and yes, other tools as well) can certainly help give us a clearer perspective, but this is far from saying that deep meditation or a high dose LSD trip will completely remove all beliefs, predispositions, and biased perspectives that we tend to view the world through.

I don't think so either, it's an life-long journey of awakening. If one chooses to wake up.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9269533 - 11/18/08 09:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Are you certain you're not dreaming right now?

:strokebeard:

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9269576 - 11/18/08 09:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm certain I'm dreaming :yesnod:

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9269580 - 11/18/08 09:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

, OK, that was a good answer. Props.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9269586 - 11/18/08 09:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

We need to stop this.

15 pages of ramblings from dreamers.

Will it ever end?

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9269592 - 11/18/08 09:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Not if we don't make it end.

:hehehe:

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9269605 - 11/18/08 09:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Make it stop, please. My brain is about to shut down.

Need... more... piracetam.

Post Extras:

deCypher

Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deranger]
#9269622 - 11/18/08 09:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Well, it looks like it'll be forced to come to a temporary halt, anyways... I'm about to open the floodgates of a THC deluge onto my brain in combination with some ferocious Norwegian black fuckin' metal.

:headbanger:

'night, everyone.

--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Post Extras:

deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: deCypher]
#9269632 - 11/18/08 09:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I'm about to blaze a bowl.

Post Extras:

Cervantes
Devil's Advocate

Registered: 09/23/03
Posts: 13,387
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill

Last seen: 7 hours, 8 minutes

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9269868 - 11/18/08 10:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How many fucking more pages of

"Did!"

"Did not!"

must aware readers suffer through?

Dude... this is like free porn.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer *DELETED* [Re: deranger]
#9271386 - 11/19/08 08:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by Veritas

Reason for deletion: Keep it about the ideas, please.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9271404 - 11/19/08 08:05 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I love the way you circumvent the 'no personalism' clause. :heart:

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#9271424 - 11/19/08 08:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Veritas is my teacher. :heart:

She pushes me relentlessly to perfect myself.

Post Extras:

Booby
Agent Mulder

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Icelander]
#9271440 - 11/19/08 08:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The viewpoint that we display different characteristics online that we wouldn't in person, goes a long way to dissuade me from thinking these people I chat with really are the image I have of them in my mind. (The image I construct from their on-line dialogue.)

--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

Post Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,609
Loc: underbelly

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer [Re: Booby]
#9271484 - 11/19/08 08:34 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The folk here who have met me in person say I'm nicer then online but not any different really.

Like Popeye,"I yam what I yam"

I think people are purty much the same online as off. In fact a good case would be that they are more honest and themselves when they have an anonymous online personality.

Post Extras:

OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: The Main Differences between Skeptic and Believer *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
#9271515 - 11/19/08 08:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by Veritas

Reason for deletion: Off-topic.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

Post Extras:

Jump to top.

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 [ show all ]

Shop for: Delicious Bacon, Microscope, Piracetam

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar Threads	Poster	Views	Replies	Last post
Skeptics / believers and misinterpretation	Ego Death	678	18	07/29/08 06:37 PM by Mr. Mushrooms
Believers and non-believers ( 1 2 3 4 all )	Learyfan	1,925	68	05/03/02 05:43 PM by Sclorch
Gadflies Without a Sting: The Downside of Skepticism - Deepak Chopra	RRRR	554	2	08/11/06 04:06 AM by Huehuecoyotl
Skeptics	mushiemountain	803	10	03/30/07 05:45 AM by redgreenvines
Skepticism and Science	Mr. Mushrooms	225	3	06/19/08 07:21 PM by Boots
The Skeptic System	Learyfan	543	18	04/20/02 09:07 AM by Floydian
What Is A Skeptic? ( 1 2 3 all )	Sclorch	1,308	45	04/16/04 09:35 AM by Anonymous
Fear and Loathing of Skeptics ( 1 2 all )	Swami	977	32	07/21/03 05:02 PM by Zero7a1

Extra information

You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Mr. Middle, Diploid
3,222 topic views. 0 members, 11 guests and 0 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic ]

del.icio.us digg Furl MyWeb reddit StumbleUpon