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Offlinefutura
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HBWR LSA/LSH Extraction Tek and Peppermint Oil
    #9098876 - 10/19/08 06:05 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

My friend swim is wanting to do an LSA Extraction from HBWS and would like to then convert to LSH using the Peppermint Oil method. )

My experience was the worst f'ing time of my life...I would not recomend this to my worst enemy...its 24 hours later and I still dont feel right...f'ing horrible taste will not go away...im unsteady and unbalanced and really hope i havent f'd myself up permaently...Advise anyone please...DO NOT DO THIS..it is f'ing horible....

Im deleting TEK after I send this and posting this instead...it was so badddddddd...felt like id rather die if it would just go away....









Edited by futura (04/03/09 11:42 PM)


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OfflineCulpepers
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: futura]
    #9099127 - 10/19/08 10:58 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I haven't seen any remotely conclusive info on the whole LSH "rumour". Does anyone even know what LSH is supposed to stand for? :smile:
(BTW, futura, I hope you don't mind me asking this question in your thread)

Most people seem to add the peppermint oil to the extract shortly before consuming it, but I don't know the semantics behind that. :confused:


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Offlinesatyr
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: Culpepers]
    #9099427 - 10/19/08 12:39 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

This is still an area of intense research, as there are no real established methods that have proven consistent results. I have tried peppermint oil in several contrasting methods, with good success. Others have even reported great results with simple peppermint tea.

Tregar has put together some awesome research, which I highly recommend you read through, as there are some good methods and info posted there.
You can find it here http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8446365#8446365


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Offlinesatyr
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: satyr]
    #9099450 - 10/19/08 12:43 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

To be particular, here is my first experience with this
Quote:

I started out with my usual extraction: In a coffee grinder, I pulverized 8 grams of MG seeds and added them to a small glass of lemon acidified water and let sit for 24 hours. After thoroughly straining the mixure, I added about 6 drops of peppermint oil and a about a tablespoon of everclear. Taking a whisk, I vigorously agitated the mixture to form an emulsion, which I believe is easier thanks to the alchohol. i let this new mixture sit in the fridge for about two hours, and drank up. The potion tasted horrible, and I the effects kicked in about an hour. No apparent nausea, but then again I never get sick from MG. The visual effects were slightly more apparent than previous experiments with plain MG, and I felt that energetic buzz in my body that normally comes with LSD. Overall, the effects were somewhat similiar to LSA, but were more pronounced and carried less of a body load.




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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: satyr]
    #9100250 - 10/19/08 04:31 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

First of all, that post you link to LSH, more info for all the curious . . . has a long rambling introduction with little information.

At one point the claim is made that "Apparently, N-(1-hydroxyethyl) lysergamide (LSH) is an adduct compound formed from lysergamide (LSA) and acetaldehyde."

No reference is provided for this (and no, the adductspaper.pdf you provide does not support this claim).  The way that it's talked about, I can't tell if the claim that LSH is the produce of ergine and acetaldehyde is supposed to be a claim about the biosynthesis of LSH by MG seeds or if it's a claim about lab synthesis.

Also, it's stated that N-(alpha-hydroxyethyl)lysergamide (LSH) can not cross the blood brain barrier due to its instability, though this argument is clearly false.  While LSH can be broken down by heat (Castagnoli et al., 1970), this doesn't necessarily mean that it won't cross the blood brain barrier. 

Based on the adductspaper.pdf, it is not clear why the acetaldehyde (and ethanol) adduct of lysergamide would result in anything other than a condensation product at the indole nitrogen, instead of the amide nitrogen.

Quote:

The kykeon was purported to be a mixture of "barley" and "mint". The barley most likely being ergot infested and the mint adding the acetaldehyde component to the mix to transform the LSA to LSH via the adduct that is formed by simple mixing of the two over a period of time.




That's a serious stretch, especially considering the fact that there's not really any direct evidence to show that lysergamide and acetaldehyde will actually produce N-(alpha-hydroxyethyl)lysergamide.

Quote:

was the mild alcohol needed to fully stabilize the newly created LSH adduct so that it would not "come apart" and release itself back into two seperate components: LSA and acetaldehyde?




This is laughable.

Quote:

Coramin which is hooked onto Lysergic Acid to form LSD is a powerful stimulant. (See page 96 of "LSD, My Problem Child" by the Late Great Dr. Hofmann to see a color illustration of how this coupling was done, and how it appears molecularly).




I think that there is a serious misunderstanding here.  Hofmann was interested in the fact that LSD has structural overlap with coramine.  As far as I know, no synthesis of LSD involves starting with coramine.

The Glasser paper (from 1961 in Nature) also says that ergometrine is less toxic and more active than LSH.

The big problem with the LSH post is that the evidence for LSH being produced from acetaldehyde (and perhaps ethanol) isn't very good.

One thing that seems to be overlooked in the discussion of starting with ergine is mentioned in the introduction of the posted paper:
Quote:

    Primary amino groups (-NH2), such as the N-terminal and
lysine e-amino groups of proteins, react rapidly with acetal-
dehyde to form Schiff bases [-N=CH(CH3)], which are
unable to react further with alcohols.





Castagnoli, N., Corbett, K., Chain, EB., and Thomas, R.  Biosynthesis of N-(a-Hydroxyethyl)lysergamide, a Metabolite of Claviceps paspali Stevens & Hall.  Biochem J. 117, pp. 451 - 455. (1970)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: Plasmid]
    #9100403 - 10/19/08 05:15 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Plasmid, does this mean that the claim that LSH is produced by adding peppermint oil is unsubstantiated?


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: deCypher]
    #9100448 - 10/19/08 05:24 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Dude that would be a PAIN IN THE ASS.  I hope you havea  dark room cuz any light getting to those amides are going to fuck your plans up.


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Offlinefutura
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9100487 - 10/19/08 05:35 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Dude that would be a PAIN IN THE ASS.  I hope you havea  dark room cuz any light getting to those amides are going to fuck your plans up.



Yes if you read my post you will see that Swim is doing everything from extraction to conversion tostorage toingestion in a dark room with only a "Photographic Dark Room Bulb as his light source...that should protect the amides shouldnt it??


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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: futura]
    #9100493 - 10/19/08 05:37 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

yeah


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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: deCypher]
    #9107777 - 10/21/08 02:35 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Plasmid, does this mean that the claim that LSH is produced by adding peppermint oil is unsubstantiated?




Entirely unsubstantiated.

Reading the paper makes me suspect that LSH would not be produced. Take a look at p.8442 and read the discussion.

It applies to ergine + acetaldehyde, because it suggests that since the amide nitrogen on ergine would not be the most nucleophilic site that other sites would be more reactive.  The N-1, C-2 and C-3 sites would be more prone to react with acetaldehyde.  Maybe even N-6 would react, which would give a salt.  Just off the top of my head though, I see four sites that are going to be more likely to react with acetaldehyde than the desired amide nitrogen. 

LSA + acetaldehyde ----> LSH is not just unsubstantiated, but reading the posted publication should provide enough information to see that this is not the likely reaction.


Edited by Plasmid (10/21/08 03:23 AM)


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OfflinePreyToGod
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: Plasmid]
    #9108124 - 10/21/08 03:52 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

All I know is that Swim has 30 HBWR in naptha now and is going to test this damn peppermint tek.  what's the worst that could happen?


--------------------
"We live together, we act on, and react to, one another but always and in all circumstances we are by ourselves... By its very nature every embodied spirit is doomed to suffer and enjoy in solitude." Huxuly
the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed

just because we all see the:greenshroom:
doesn't mean we all see the same
:mushroom2:

I pushed my fingers through the earth, returned this flower to the dirt. so it could live, I walked away now. But I know... Not a day goes by when I don't feel this burn. There's a point we pass from which we can't return. I've felt the cold rain of the coming storm
None but ourselves can free our minds.”




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Offlinefutura
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: PreyToGod]
    #9108542 - 10/21/08 07:44 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PreyToGod said:
All I know is that Swim has 30 HBWR in naptha now and is going to test this damn peppermint tek.  what's the worst that could happen?




Thats exactly what swim means...Swim doesnt care about the chemistry or if lsh or whatever is produced..all he cares about is that most people seem to report that adding the peppermint oil eliminates the vasoconstictive properties and the body high is greatly diminished and its more of a Mind Trip...thats what swim is after.

Honestly swim would prefer finding a sheet of Blotter(LSD) cause the last one he ran across was in 1985 and he used the last of it last week!!!

But since swim hasnt run across any in 23 years he is gonna give this lsa/peppermint idea a shot!!!

And yes swim has access to shrooms and other stuff..but since he really wants some LSD and cant find any anywhere(and belive me hes tried!!!) he's gonna try this out and is asking for advice from people who have done it so he can get the best Mind trip possible...


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Offlinefutura
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: PreyToGod]
    #9108588 - 10/21/08 08:19 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

My experience was the worst f'ing time of my life...I would not recomend this to my worst enemy...its 24 hours later and I still dont feel right...f'ing horrible taste will not go away...im unsteady and unbalanced and really hope i havent f'd myself up permaently...Advise anyone please...DO NOT DO THIS..it is f'ing horible....

Im deleting TEK after I send this and posting this instead...it was so badddddddd...felt like id rather die if it would just go away....


Edited by futura (04/03/09 11:43 PM)


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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: PreyToGod]
    #9108739 - 10/21/08 10:29 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PreyToGod said:
All I know is that Swim has 30 HBWR in naptha now and is going to test this damn peppermint tek.  what's the worst that could happen?




I have a feeling that you don't mean that your friend is going to test this with a mass spectrometer.

Why don't you ask yourself the following:

"What's the best that could happen?"

Nothing.  A bioassay is NOT a test of this reaction.

Even if your friend swears up and down that the effects were different, that does not tell you jack shit about whether or not LSA + acetaldehyde produced LSH.


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Invisible04281969
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: futura]
    #9108759 - 10/21/08 10:40 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, wrong thread.


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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: futura]
    #9108779 - 10/21/08 10:45 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Ergot alkaloids are largely nonpolar.  Just take a look at the extended pi system over the indole ring and beyond (that is, the double bonds along the carbon system).  Yes, ergot alkaloids and related derivatives like LSD, ergometrine, ergine, etc. have polar regions, so they are somewhat polar, but they are largely nonpolar.

Most extractions begin by adding slightly basified nonpolar solvent (eg - ether plus sodium bicarbonate to extract the alkaloids and some of the fats).  Then an acidic wash is used to extract the alkaloids from the nonpolar solvent, leaving the fats behind.

It's possible to just ground the seeds and extract directly with water, I suppose.  It's going to depend on the pH on the material in the seeds, the ionic strength in solution and so forth.  Ergot alkaloids have both polar and nonpolar regions.

Just one example of the first type of extraction:
"Portions to be assayed calorimetrically with the van Urk reagent were extracted either
with ether gfter being made alkaline with NH,OH, or with ethyl acetate, after being made
alkaline with NaHCO,. In both cases, the alkaloid was back-extracted into O-2 N [sulfuric acid]"

from:
Taber, WA., Heacock, RA., and Mahon, ME.  Ergot-Type Alkaloids in Vegetative Tissue of Rivea Corymbosa (L) Hall. f.  Phytochemistry.  2, pp. 99 - 101.  (1963)


Many of the patents I've seen also involve this initial nonpolar extraction phase, but it's possible that it's not necessary.  The patents and journal articles are intended for follow up work which is either industrial production of another ergot derivative (and hence requires very clean starting material) or an analytical assay of the alkaloids in the plant.

I don't have time to go over all of the papers I have right now, but I'll look over them and see what I can find.

If you want to start on your own, take a look at free online patent sources.  Just search for one of the species involved and "ergot*" or something like that.

Another technique uses an alcohol water mix without (as far as I could see at a quick glance of the paper) and inital nonpolar extraction, so it may be quite unnecessary.  Also note that these papers follow up with pDMAB and UV fluorescence tests for the presence of ergot-like alkaloids. 

Brackett, JW., Carter, WA., Harding, DM., and Dougherty, PM.  Identification of Seeds of Ipomea Purpurea (Morning Glory Family reported to have Psychotomimetic Properties) by Paper Chromatography.  Journal of the Forensic Science Society.  6, pp. 90 - 96.  (1965)

more later.


Edited by Plasmid (10/21/08 10:51 AM)


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OfflinePreyToGod
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Re: LSA/LSH Peppermint OIL-How Much and When?? [Re: Plasmid]
    #9119277 - 10/23/08 02:18 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

As long as he gets visuals with no body load and an enjoyable experience, he doesn't truly care if it make is turns in the KKK, he'll take the shit;)


--------------------
"We live together, we act on, and react to, one another but always and in all circumstances we are by ourselves... By its very nature every embodied spirit is doomed to suffer and enjoy in solitude." Huxuly
the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed

just because we all see the:greenshroom:
doesn't mean we all see the same
:mushroom2:

I pushed my fingers through the earth, returned this flower to the dirt. so it could live, I walked away now. But I know... Not a day goes by when I don't feel this burn. There's a point we pass from which we can't return. I've felt the cold rain of the coming storm
None but ourselves can free our minds.”




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Offlinefutura
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Update on Tek [Re: PreyToGod]
    #10084612 - 04/01/09 01:51 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

SWINS TRIP REPORT

4/91/09(1:00AM)Added 10 drops Pure peppermint Oil to 30 ml hbwr extract

4/3/09(12:10AM)Took 30 ml extract (Equal to 7.5 Whole HBWR Seeds)

Stuff burned like a MOFO...Had to drink some spring water afterwards(About 4oz). I think Im going to evaporate some more so can take like 10ml instead of 30 and then also use just use like 4 or 5 drops peppermint oil.

4/03/09

12:15AM First thing I notice is mild stomach upset...but I would expect that being it burned so much going down.

12:40AM Second thing I notice is a kind of speedy rush feeling starting to come over me...

1:18 AM feeling trippy..only downside is burning in throat and a little more nausea...No visuals yet....

1:30 Am LAID DOWN FEELING NAuSEOUS AND KIND Of DRuNK FEELING..

2:40 Am gOT UP AND PUKED MY GUTS OT FOR NEXT 3 HOURS...tASTES HORRIBLE...KEPT DRINKING MORE WATER AND PUKING MORE...TOOK TUMS SUPER STRENGTH LIKE 5 TIMES TO COUNTERACT STOMACH ACID..THIS SUCKS REALLY BAD...

5:30 am JUST STARTING TO COME DOWN...WOULDNEVER EVER EVER NEVER DO THIS  AGAIN....TOTALLY SUCKS ...IM SO FUCKING SICK...THREW THE REST OF THE EXTRACT AWAY...fffff tHIS THIS WAS FING HORRIBLE........iM COLD...iM SICK AS A FING DOG......JUST WISHHISWOLD STOPAND GOAWAY.........

dont do this everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My experience was the worst f'ing time of my life...I would not recomend this to my worst enemy...its 24 hours later and I still dont feel right...f'ing horrible taste will not go away...im unsteady and unbalanced and really hope i havent f'd myself up permaently...Advise anyone please...DO NOT DO THIS..it is f'ing horible....

Im deleting TEK after I send this and posting this instead...it was so badddddddd...felt like id rather die if it would just go away....


Edited by futura (04/03/09 11:49 PM)


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Offlinefutura
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WARNINGGGG DONT DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: futura]
    #10098809 - 04/03/09 05:39 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

SWINS TRIP REPORT

4/91/09(1:00AM)Added 10 drops Pure peppermint Oil to 30 ml hbwr extract

4/3/09(12:10AM)Took 30 ml extract (Equal to 7.5 Whole HBWR Seeds)

Stuff burned like a MOFO...Had to drink some spring water afterwards(About 4oz). I think Im going to evaporate some more so can take like 10ml instead of 30 and then also use just use like 4 or 5 drops peppermint oil.

4/03/09

12:15AM First thing I notice is mild stomach upset...but I would expect that being it burned so much going down.

12:40AM Second thing I notice is a kind of speedy rush feeling starting to come over me...

1:18 AM feeling trippy..only downside is burning in throat and a little more nausea...No visuals yet....

1:30 Am LAID DOWN FEELING NAuSEOUS AND KIND Of DRuNK FEELING..

2:40 Am gOT UP AND PUKED MY GUTS OT FOR NEXT 3 HOURS...tASTES HORRIBLE...KEPT DRINKING MORE WATER AND PUKING MORE...TOOK TUMS SUPER STRENGTH LIKE 5 TIMES TO COUNTERACT STOMACH ACID..THIS SUCKS REALLY BAD...

5:30 am JUST STARTING TO COME DOWN...WOULDNEVER EVER EVER NEVER DO THIS  AGAIN....TOTALLY SUCKS ...IM SO FUCKING SICK...THREW THE REST OF THE EXTRACT AWAY...fffff tHIS THIS WAS FING HORRIBLE........iM COLD...iM SICK AS A FING DOG......JUST WISHHISWOLD STOPAND GOAWAY.........

dont do this everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My experience was the worst f'ing time of my life...I would not recomend this to my worst enemy...its 24 hours later and I still dont feel right...f'ing horrible taste will not go away...im unsteady and unbalanced and really hope i havent f'd myself up permaently...Advise anyone please...DO NOT DO THIS..it is f'ing horible....

Im deleting TEK after I send this and posting this instead...it was so badddddddd...felt like id rather die if it would just go away....


Edited by futura (04/03/09 11:43 PM)


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OfflineRevolutionine
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Re: WARNINGGGG DONT DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: futura]
    #10099408 - 04/03/09 11:40 AM (5 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

futura said:
SWINS TRIP REPORT

4/91/09(1:00AM)Added 10 drops Pure peppermint Oil to 30 ml hbwr extract

4/3/09(12:10AM)Took 30 ml extract (Equal to 7.5 Whole HBWR Seeds)

Stuff burned like a MOFO...Had to drink some spring water afterwards(About 4oz). I think Im going to evaporate some more so can take like 10ml instead of 30 and then also use just use like 4 or 5 drops peppermint oil.

4/03/09

12:15AM First thing I notice is mild stomach upset...but I would expect that being it burned so much going down.

12:40AM Second thing I notice is a kind of speedy rush feeling starting to come over me...

1:18 AM feeling trippy..only downside is burning in throat and a little more nausea...No visuals yet....

1:30 Am LAID DOWN FEELING NAuSEOUS AND KIND Of DRuNK FEELING..

2:40 Am gOT UP AND PUKED MY GUTS OT FOR NEXT 3 HOURS...tASTES HORRIBLE...KEPT DRINKING MORE WATER AND PUKING MORE...TOOK TUMS SUPER STRENGTH LIKE 5 TIMES TO COUNTERACT STOMACH ACID..THIS SUCKS REALLY BAD...

5:30 am JUST STARTING TO COME DOWN...WOULDNEVER EVER EVER NEVER DO THIS  AGAIN....TOTALLY SUCKS ...IM SO FUCKING SICK...THREW THE REST OF THE EXTRACT AWAY...fffff tHIS THIS WAS FING HORRIBLE........iM COLD...iM SICK AS A FING DOG......JUST WISHHISWOLD STOPAND GOAWAY.........

dont do this everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Damn really? Swim was starting to collect materials to try this extraction and I told him about this and now hes a little scared. He was thinking of adding about 15 drops of everclear to the LSA extract and mixing in peppermint tea, do you think this is a bad idea?


--------------------
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All I ever wanted was to be free,

and in the end that's how it turned out to be


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enygma 4,560 21 09/06/14 04:35 AM
by Godfather1376

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