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InvisibledeCypher
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Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone?
    #9097346 - 10/18/08 08:58 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I'm curious to know how difficult this is without the aid of psychedelic drugs, i.e. how long did it take you; how many hours of practice did you undergo; etc.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineDreamSignals
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: deCypher]
    #9097438 - 10/18/08 09:24 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Does weed count? Meditation alone I have experienced a lot of things but nothing what I would consider true ego-death.


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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. (93)
Love is the law, love under will. (93 93/93)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: DreamSignals]
    #9097441 - 10/18/08 09:25 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, any use of recreational substances defeats the purpose of my question IMO.  I've been able to achieve ego death on weed and N2O alone, but I sense the pragmatic benefit to being able to induce this through pure thought (or more accurately, no thought) is much greater.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: deCypher]
    #9097579 - 10/18/08 10:05 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Samadhi can mean a one-pointed, seed-bearing contemplation, or it can mean a no-mind, seedless contemplation.  There are different types of samadhi's.  I have achieved a one-pointed meditation a few times that was heavenly.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleRev. MortonM

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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: deCypher]
    #9097606 - 10/18/08 10:11 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I know people who have experienced awakening without substances.

Usually it's after 10-20 years of study and light practice or 1 year of daily meditation, sometimes it's triggered immediately upon meeting a teacher but that's really rare. It is always spontaneous and effortless.

There are many 'stages' in this process, there is the realization and then the integration of the realization and then a new realization etc.


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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: deCypher]
    #9098190 - 10/19/08 12:58 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Nobody has because you cannot experience ego death.

The ego is a functional necessity of experience because it is a construct of experience.  The ego is partly a structural foundation of experience.  Experiences must happen to something; that is to say that an experience requires an experiencer.

Without an ego, there is no possibility of subjectivity.  The ego is part of both the form and content of experience.  The ego is always present in some form during experience.

I know you've heard this before Cypher, so if you disagree why don't you tell me what you think an ego is?  All I ever get out of people when I say that ego death is impossible to experience are questions and refutations.  I've not yet seen anyone else lay down their ideas of ego death, even though it is quite obviously the ideological center of psychedelic idealism.

Ego death is nothing special.  Every time you fall asleep, your ego dies as subjectivity vanishes.

Even if you're going to disagree, I'd like to see something more on this topic than the rehashings of Leary's babblings about ego games, "Enlightenment", etc.  I seriously think that far too many people take the ridiculously warped notions of "ego death" far too seriously without having giving it any critical thought.

"YO D00D I don't have an ego anymore!"


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: Rev. Morton]
    #9098203 - 10/19/08 01:01 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

samadhi yes ego death not so much
maybe just the 3rd jhana
felt pretty much like samadhi, satori
took 1.5 yrs of 40 mins/day skipping 30% of days
then shifted from jhana meditation to vipassana.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: Plasmid]
    #9098360 - 10/19/08 01:43 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
Nobody has because you cannot experience ego death.

The ego is a functional necessity of experience because it is a construct of experience.  The ego is partly a structural foundation of experience.  Experiences must happen to something; that is to say that an experience requires an experiencer.





i believe he is talking about personality-ego, as opposed to the individual-ego.  one has to do with conditioning, the other is of a more inherent nature.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: deCypher]
    #9098379 - 10/19/08 01:51 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
I'm curious to know how difficult this is without the aid of psychedelic drugs, i.e. how long did it take you; how many hours of practice did you undergo; etc.




i knew a guy who went to a vipassana meditation retreat and experienced ego-loss.  said he broke down and felt like he was dying.  10 hours of meditation a day for 10 days would do that to some.


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Offlinespacemonkey69
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: deranger]
    #9098402 - 10/19/08 01:59 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I was wondering the same thing today.


--------------------
"If you take a psychedelic,and aren't afraid you've done too much, you haven't done enough."

:mushroom2: Terence Mckenna :mushroom2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: Rev. Morton]
    #9099630 - 10/19/08 01:34 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
I know people who have experienced awakening without substances.

Usually it's after 10-20 years of study and light practice or 1 year of daily meditation, sometimes it's triggered immediately upon meeting a teacher but that's really rare. It is always spontaneous and effortless.

There are many 'stages' in this process, there is the realization and then the integration of the realization and then a new realization etc.




I became a Martial Arts Master spontaneously after meeting my instructor. :thumbup:


--------------------

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

A human life is a journey into darkness -unknown



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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9099642 - 10/19/08 01:38 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
samadhi yes ego death not so much
maybe just the 3rd jhana
felt pretty much like samadhi, satori
took 1.5 yrs of 40 mins/day skipping 30% of days
then shifted from jhana meditation to vipassana.




Can you clarify the difference between samadhi and ego death?

(And perhaps define jhanas?)


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: deCypher]
    #9099702 - 10/19/08 01:55 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

yes


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9099747 - 10/19/08 02:06 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I have experience ego calming with meditation. It feels good to take a break/brake and then get back into it.:thumbup:


--------------------

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

A human life is a journey into darkness -unknown



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9099754 - 10/19/08 02:08 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam%C4%81dhi_(Buddhism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egolessness
Ego Loss however, is less defined.
we can probably agree about dysfunction of self
disorientation and relief from habituated behavior
and other High Dose results from psychedelics, but
the simmilarity of Ego Loss from drugs with Egolessness from meditation is difficult to clarify.

on moderate doses, with moderate insight and moderate buoyancy & freedom from habit, there is a much higher resemblence
to the insight and buoyancy & freedom from habit that comes from meditation, and emerges spontaneously
when not meditating for people that are so attuned.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9099767 - 10/19/08 02:13 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I think meditation  is a powerful tool when used correctly and in moderation. Something humans do naturally and is a mental and physical health benefit.


--------------------

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

A human life is a journey into darkness -unknown



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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: Plasmid]
    #9101351 - 10/19/08 09:17 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
Nobody has because you cannot experience ego death.

The ego is a functional necessity of experience because it is a construct of experience.  The ego is partly a structural foundation of experience.  Experiences must happen to something; that is to say that an experience requires an experiencer.

Without an ego, there is no possibility of subjectivity.  The ego is part of both the form and content of experience.  The ego is always present in some form during experience.

I know you've heard this before Cypher, so if you disagree why don't you tell me what you think an ego is?  All I ever get out of people when I say that ego death is impossible to experience are questions and refutations.  I've not yet seen anyone else lay down their ideas of ego death, even though it is quite obviously the ideological center of psychedelic idealism.

Ego death is nothing special.  Every time you fall asleep, your ego dies as subjectivity vanishes.

Even if you're going to disagree, I'd like to see something more on this topic than the rehashings of Leary's babblings about ego games, "Enlightenment", etc.  I seriously think that far too many people take the ridiculously warped notions of "ego death" far too seriously without having giving it any critical thought.

"YO D00D I don't have an ego anymore!"




When experiencing ego-death, one cannot even speak.

The ego is your current experience, sifting through a catalog of your previous experiences (memory).  The ego keeps you in line so you don't make the same mistake twice. Everything that you do, besides eating, shitting, pissing, and sleeping, is what the ego has enabled you to do.  It is almost like evolution.  Your ego will choose the favorable experience, and be weary of the actions that caused the ones that are not.  So you don't make the same mistake twice.  It's just your experience sifting through your past experiences.

Now, ego-death does exists because when you cross the line, and the ego is not there to keep you in check, you may do absurd things, and you may not even know how to use your vocal cords to speak.  You may not even know that you are a human, because you are no longer sifting through your memories, and you don't remember the part of your life here somebody convinced you that you are a human, and that human actually means anything in the first place.  The memories seemed to have disappeared, and all that exists is the now.  You aren't you, and you never were.  Once the ego dies, you are awakened.  Then when the ego comes back, you fall back asleep, though you may feel as you are born anew.

... I must be bored...  :canadian:


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: Plasmid]
    #9102312 - 10/20/08 01:04 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

(Forgive me if I wax mystical.)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
Nobody has because you cannot experience ego death.




This is correct--because during ego death, there is no "you" that is experiencing.  The observer and the observed have merged into a single thing.

Quote:

Experiences must happen to something; that is to say that an experience requires an experiencer.




During ordinary rationality, yes.  During ego death, these two merge.

Quote:


I know you've heard this before Cypher, so if you disagree why don't you tell me what you think an ego is?




This is hard to define.  I'd say the best description of the ego, at least in the way that it's used in the term "ego death", is that of the Observer--that I, that fundamental sense of self-identity we have.  This can be manipulated, and even dissolved, by a variety of methods--psychedelics drug use, meditation, or even trans-cranial magnetic stimulation.  Mysticism, as such as usually gets wrapped up in this sort of thing, is testable by the scientific method: we know it occurs, and for a lack of a better word we say that "we" experience ego death, when in actuality this is a bit of a linguistic misnomer as it pre-supposes the existence of some objective reality wherein an autonomous agent (such as you or me) is capable of experiencing sensation X, where X in this case is ego death.  This is erroneous.  All we can ever know of reality around us comes in via our own perceptions, our own thoughts, and our own beliefs: there may or there may not be an objective reality, but we can never know it--all we may ever know is our subjective reality, and during ego death we can post-reflect on the Observer merging with the Observed (which colloquially we deem as "I", or "we" experiencing ego death.)

Quote:

I've not yet seen anyone else lay down their ideas of ego death, even though it is quite obviously the ideological center of psychedelic idealism.




It's a tool, like any other.  No need to get wrapped too closely with a particular manifestation of will in action.

Quote:

Ego death is nothing special.




Really?  How many times out of one's life does one undergo ego death, as compared to eating cereal or breathing air?  It's the rarity, or the "magic" of the experience that makes it special.  Personally I wouldn't sacrifice being to able experience samadhi (forgive me if I presuppose that I've experienced this) for anything.

Quote:

Every time you fall asleep, your ego dies as subjectivity vanishes.




Not quite sure if this is applicable, although what happens to consciousness during deep sleep can be a truly intriguing subject.  There is hardly the same sense of an observed-observer merging while falling deep asleep--different brain states, different mental experiences, different reality.

Quote:

Even if you're going to disagree, I'd like to see something more on this topic than the rehashings of Leary's babblings about ego games, "Enlightenment", etc.




The model found in the Psychedelic Experience is one explanation of a phenomenon.  It does a fairly good job, at least in conveying the general manifestations of the whole experience, but taking any man's word on what is absolute reality, or "truth" is naive no matter what the situation.

Quote:

"YO D00D I don't have an ego anymore!"




The very fact you say "I" conveys to me that you still have your ego.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: deranger]
    #9102652 - 10/20/08 03:09 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:
I'm curious to know how difficult this is without the aid of psychedelic drugs, i.e. how long did it take you; how many hours of practice did you undergo; etc.




i knew a guy who went to a vipassana meditation retreat and experienced ego-loss.  said he broke down and felt like he was dying.  10 hours of meditation a day for 10 days would do that to some.




this is also a common occurrence at those retreats. there's a vipassana meditation center an hour drive away from me and i have heard of people freaking out, like they lose their minds.  the meditation instructors try their hardest to keep people meditating and from leaving the retreat.  some are reborn after the experience.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Who here has experienced Samadhi/Ego Death through meditation alone? [Re: deCypher]
    #9103015 - 10/20/08 08:30 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
I'm curious to know how difficult this is without the aid of psychedelic drugs, i.e. how long did it take you; how many hours of practice did you undergo; etc.




After learning TM when I was fifteen I started having full blown kundalini experiences for some three years after which they were through pretty much forever. If I meditate in a retreat setting, meaning little distraction, no drugs, little to do besides meditation, I soon reach a point of total inner expansion where all qualities and boundaries cease to have meaning.

It's pretty much a bit too much for me to sustain for long as my work and lifestyle don't support such clarity.

So I save the experience for retreat times and just do short practice every day to just get the flavor of it without the full blown transcendence.

The experience of samadhi is not too hard to get, the experience of 'ego-death' is not too hard to get.  What is hard to get is stability and integration of these experiences within ones localized environment, especially if they are not part of any like minded group of people.


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