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OfflineCokedUpHobit64
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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: Kickle]
    #9015874 - 10/01/08 11:50 PM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

CokedUpHobit64 said:
  Xanax has saved my ass a lot of times, and I can honestly say its HELPED me improve my anxiety.  I've learned alot from it just by putting myself in situations that I would have never done before.  The thing is I dont even need xanax now for those situations because I've familiarized myself with them and overcame the anxiety surrounding them.




This is the way I see it helping in the long term.
Operant conditioning creating cognitive shifts.

For those interested...
Operant conditioning can be described most simply as punishment and reinforcement. Reinforcement being anything that increases the likelihood of a behavior. Punishment being the opposite, anything that decreases the likelihood of a behavior.

Punishment and Reinforcement can then be broken down into positive and negative.
Positive being the addition of something. In reinforcement, the addition a reward. In punishment, the addition something aversive.
Negative is the removal of something. In reinforcement, the removal of something aversive. In punishment, the removal of something pleasant. 

Anxiety is negatively reinforcing. As you experience the aversive effects, you seek to remove them. Removal of the aversive leads to reinforcement of that action. ex) You go to a party, become anxious, and leave sooner than if you didn't have the anxiety. When you leave, the anxiety fades away. This reinforces leaving the party early. Before you know it, you're leaving the party before you get there.

So in the pills case, it can alleviate that negative reinforcement by keeping you at the party from start to finish. This in turn can lead to positive reinforcement (addition of something pleasant). With enough positive reinforcements, your concept of what a party entails may shift.

Note: Classical conditioning can be easily included in this, but I didn't want to make this post longer than it already is. This is just an overview of how I see Xanax being able to aid in the removal of anxiety long term, without the need for addiction.

setback... memory loss would make learning difficult. If you experience severe memory loss, it is my opinion that it is time to cut it off.




Said it a lot better than I could.  Good advice right here.


--------------------
So good to see you, I've missed you so much.



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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: Kickle]
    #9015963 - 10/02/08 12:09 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
 

Anxiety is negatively reinforcing. As you experience the aversive effects, you seek to remove them. Removal of the aversive leads to reinforcement of that action. ex) You go to a party, become anxious, and leave sooner than if you didn't have the anxiety. When you leave, the anxiety fades away. This reinforces leaving the party early. Before you know it, you're leaving the party before you get there.

So in the pills case, it can alleviate that negative reinforcement by keeping you at the party from start to finish. This in turn can lead to positive reinforcement (addition of something pleasant). With enough positive reinforcements, your concept of what a party entails may shift.

Note: Classical conditioning can be easily included in this, but I didn't want to make this post longer than it already is. This is just an overview of how I see Xanax being able to aid in the removal of anxiety long term, without the need for addiction.

setback... memory loss would make learning difficult. If you experience severe memory loss, it is my opinion that it is time to cut it off.




very true. I've experienced this so many times - expecting or assuming the anxiety to overwhelm me in a certain situation or social setting because it has happened before and I am afraid that it will happen again.. so either it is the fear, or the expectation, or the past experiences that actually make it happen again, which leads me to try to avoid whatever the trigger was in the future. So yes, xanax has greatly helped with that. But I find it hard to understand that if it is being used for a long period of time, then how is it not an addiction, or how would it not develop into one? Without it, you would revert back to your initial problem because it was never actually solved..
I mean, that particular anxiety or fear might return, and maybe even stronger because you are aware that you are sober (not on xanax) and that you are in a setting that you previously could not deal with. And then with this awareness, wouldn't you want to take a benzo again to cope?


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: alices_poppies]
    #9015982 - 10/02/08 12:12 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

alices_poppies said:
yes. xanax is the shit.
I definitely agree with you there, but once tolerance kicks in, which will happen if you continue using it, it morphs into the devil himself and rapes you in the ass.




what was your frequency of usage?

i know someone who's been using xanax 3 days/week for about 6 years and 2mg is all he needs.  yes it is a habit for him, but he claims it has dramatically changed his life for the good.  he's taken breaks and the w/d's aren't devastating.  but everyone is different.  just gotta make sure not to go above 3 days/week, that's what works for him.  it's important to be aware of how severely they can fuck you over, read up on reports of abuse, it helps with the self-control thing.

other than that, can't wait for these pills to arrive :grin:


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: alices_poppies]
    #9015988 - 10/02/08 12:14 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

alices_poppies said:

very true. I've experienced this so many times - expecting or assuming the anxiety to overwhelm me in a certain situation or social setting because it has happened before and I am afraid that it will happen again.. so either it is the fear, or the expectation, or the past experiences that actually make it happen again, which leads me to try to avoid whatever the trigger was in the future. So yes, xanax has greatly helped with that. But I find it hard to understand that if it is being used for a long period of time, then how is it not an addiction, or how would it not develop into one? Without it, you would revert back to your initial problem because it was never actually solved..
I mean, that particular anxiety or fear might return, and maybe even stronger because you are aware that you are sober (not on xanax) and that you are in a setting that you previously could not deal with. And then with this awareness, wouldn't you want to take a benzo again to cope?




This is where I'm at, too.

Discuss.:yesnod:


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: Ego Death]
    #9016005 - 10/02/08 12:18 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Weed is WAYYYYY better than manufactured chemical shit. The government and Pfizer wants you to be addicted to shit like bars and klonopin and legal pills like that because they make a killing treating illnesses with that, then treating them for their addictions to these pills.

Ill stick with my stinky delicious homegrown, and you should too!:peace:


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: doja42]
    #9016015 - 10/02/08 12:20 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

fuck that conspiracy bs. 

don't tell anyone what they should be doing, to each their own.


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: deranger]
    #9016041 - 10/02/08 12:25 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
fuck that conspiracy bs. 

don't tell anyone what they should be doing, to each their own.




That is just my personal opinion. I completely agree, to each their own. Which includes my opinion that is free from judgement. I think everyone should smoke herb, all day everyday.

I say fuck that drama bs  :peace: & :heart:


Edited by doja42 (10/02/08 12:27 AM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: alices_poppies]
    #9016042 - 10/02/08 12:26 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

That is certainly a big risk of Xanax.

Ethics say that a researcher can't run an experiment to find out how long it takes for the average person to get addicted. So everyone's guess is just as good as the next.

There is assuredly a body of research about the amount of exposures it takes for new learning to take place from changed behavior patterns. Think in an extreme case, a phobia. Arachnophobia as a common example. Extreme anxiety and fear wash over someone at the sight of a spider. A clinician might expose that person, at first, to a picture of a spider. Then, work their way up to a real spider. Possibly in a tight container, where the client doesn't feel threatened. Then maybe a harmless spider on a desk. Then maybe letting the harmless spider crawl on the patients hand. Etc.

Then there is also the technique of flooding the person with the fear. In other words, exposing the person to the harmless spider immediately. Giving them the most intense stimulation of their fear, their first go through. It's thought that if you can endure your worst fear, everything else will seem much easier.

So does it take more time to get addicted or does it take more time to learn a new way of operating via operant learning, I don't know. But if you have to run the risk of addiction, you may as well go about it with some thought.

I personally am opposed to meds, but I'm biased. I will never try them, because I'm looking constantly looking for other ways.


Edit: Probably more to the point of what you were opening to discussion, the science behind it says 'The problem is genetic. You can rewire the brain though, via operant learning.' There is nothing that the person did wrong. It is what it is, and there are ways to work with it.

This may not be the case, but the drugs certainly are convincing that something in the brain is controlling your anxiety. And they're pretty convincing that it can be altered.

Versus more spiritual approaches, which have helped me more than science.



Edited by Kickle (10/02/08 12:42 AM)


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: doja42]
    #9016061 - 10/02/08 12:31 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

pardon the snappiness, i just feel the need to put my foot down when people start imposing their views on others.


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: deranger]
    #9016153 - 10/02/08 12:50 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Its all good man, I apologise if I offended! You enjoy your bars as I will my pot and we can be friends :peace:


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: doja42]
    #9016155 - 10/02/08 12:51 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

i enjoy both, along with many others :grin:


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: deranger]
    #9016205 - 10/02/08 01:03 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
Quote:

alices_poppies said:
yes. xanax is the shit.
I definitely agree with you there, but once tolerance kicks in, which will happen if you continue using it, it morphs into the devil himself and rapes you in the ass.




what was your frequency of usage?

i know someone who's been using xanax 3 days/week for about 6 years and 2mg is all he needs.  yes it is a habit for him, but he claims it has dramatically changed his life for the good.  he's taken breaks and the w/d's aren't devastating.  but everyone is different.  just gotta make sure not to go above 3 days/week, that's what works for him.  it's important to be aware of how severely they can fuck you over, read up on reports of abuse, it helps with the self-control thing.

other than that, can't wait for these pills to arrive :grin:





Eh..When I wrote that I was thinking about myself and I also had other people in mind, where their shit has been just terrible. A friend of mine has been in and out of rehab, jail, courtrooms, and on the street because of benzos. but mostly drinking and pills in general..so I guess you can't really blame the xanax, but more the behavior? and I think that'd be the worst case scenario..

I've been taking xanax for about 5 years. It started out pretty damn good in the beginning. Even though it wasn't a prescription, it wasn't for purely recreational purposes. When I had my first half bar, it felt so good..Melting is the only word I can think of to describe that first time with xanax.. like a smooth melting off of my face. or a wave of calm and security - like I was so damn sure of myself and my existence..my thoughts were flowing out of my mouth like butter. (I wonder now if it was all just complete babbling bullshit..)

Anyway, it helped with almost everything, especially with interactions with other people. but it didn't really make me a different person - in the beginning- which I also liked. So really, had I used this drug differently, I'd be in the same situation as your friend. And I know there are many people out there that are like that too.
but I was just stupid with it..it went up to about 4(ish) bars pretty fast all the time...and then to snorting them. often. and then to binges that included drinking and other pills, which really changed everything from beautiful to fucking shit. so fucking dumb. It never got too bad as far as my livelihood, like some people, which I am grateful for because it could have very easily. I've weaned myself down to about a quarter bar a day..the withdrawal wasn't an absolute nightmare, I guess because I never stopped completely..I've had my weed, and usually something else to counteract my sobriety..but a past OD on MDMA sort of made me cool off a bit too.
So.. I'm not proud of this because I told Ego to be a "responsible pill-popper" which I'm not. Just looking out I guess..

but I will say this: xanax and mushrooms was one of the best experiences I've ever had! and I will never regret doing that at least..:evil::evil::evil:
so there's a piece of my life story. enjoy, you bastards. :mushroom2:


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: alices_poppies]
    #9016247 - 10/02/08 01:12 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

yeah, i used to be quite the fan of klonopin.  if i were normally a stressed out depressed person without drugs, then i probably would have developed a problem.  when it comes to relying on such drugs to feel good about life and function, that is where the downward spiral begins.  moderation is key, but it's amazing how many people overlook that.  even the slightest bit of ignorance will destroy a person when it comes to benzos.


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: alices_poppies]
    #9016253 - 10/02/08 01:13 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

and I mean that out of love. :wink:


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: Kickle]
    #9016303 - 10/02/08 01:23 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:

This may not be the case, but the drugs certainly are convincing that something in the brain is controlling your anxiety. And they're pretty convincing that it can be altered.

Versus more spiritual approaches, which have helped me more than science.






Everything you said makes sense.. and I am also trying out different approaches - more natural/herbal, though. But I wouldn't mind hearing how your spiritual approaches have worked for you?
Also.. it is definitely possible that drugs can remedy some kind of imbalance that might be causing the anxiety, but then again.. some anxiety stems from past negative experiences. So, wouldn't the environment, and the person's own perspective, have as much of a factor in affecting the brain as the drugs would? I'm not sure if this is making sense, I'm pretty beat right now, but I feel like anxiety can be a learned behavior..maybe exacerbated by some kind of chemical imbalance from past drug use, or from some other cause..which is where the drugs would help. But if it is learned, can't it be unlearned? Just like someone with a fear of spiders who is confronted with a spider might discover that there is little to be afraid of.. That it was a mental construction, that developed into a phobia? I do keep it in the back of my head that alot of this is easier said than done.


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: alices_poppies]
    #9016377 - 10/02/08 01:38 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

you're making perfect sense.

It is very possible that we learn anxiety. You're rear ended at a stop light. The next time you come up to a stoplight, you become anxious and start to check your rear view mirror.

This is classical conditioning. You learned that stoplights were associated with trauma.
Over time, without any more accidents, that association will fade away (extinction), and the association that everything is fine will creep back in.

If you were to have a second accident say within a year, though, that association would most likely be strengthened, and harder to extinguish.


So yeah, our environment plays a huge roll. But person A may get rear ended, and in a week they don't check their mirrors, while person B is checking them for several months after. That could be described as a persons genetic vulnerability to anxiety. The more vulnerable you are, the less severe a stimulation you need.


As for my own spiritual growth, they're long stories, but the listos is:
Spiritual events are unusually powerful. The more powerful an experience, the more likely it is to cause change. This is how they've helped me, by inspiring change like nothing else can.


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: alices_poppies]
    #9016399 - 10/02/08 01:43 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

alices_poppies said:
Everything you said makes sense.. and I am also trying out different approaches - more natural/herbal, though. But I wouldn't mind hearing how your spiritual approaches have worked for you?
Also.. it is definitely possible that drugs can remedy some kind of imbalance that might be causing the anxiety, but then again.. some anxiety stems from past negative experiences. So, wouldn't the environment, and the person's own perspective, have as much of a factor in affecting the brain as the drugs would? I'm not sure if this is making sense, I'm pretty beat right now, but I feel like anxiety can be a learned behavior..maybe exacerbated by some kind of chemical imbalance from past drug use, or from some other cause..which is where the drugs would help. But if it is learned, can't it be unlearned? Just like someone with a fear of spiders who is confronted with a spider might discover that there is little to be afraid of.. That it was a mental construction, that developed into a phobia? I do keep it in the back of my head that alot of this is easier said than done.




Quote:

Cortisol

Did you know that those who consistently meditate have significantly lower levels of the hormone Cortisol? What is Cortisol and what makes it so harmful? Higher and more prolonged levels of Cortisol, an age accelerating hormone, in the bloodstream has been found to have effects such as decreased bone density, elevated blood pressure, suppressed thyroid function, weakened cognitive performance, chronic stress, blood sugar imbalances such as hyperglycemia, decrease in muscle tissue, lowered immunity and inflammatory responses in the body, increased abdominal fat, which is related to many more health problems than fat deposited in other areas of the body, heart attacks, strokes, the increase of higher levels of "bad" cholesterol (LDL) and lower levels of "good" cholesterol (HDL), which leads to other health problems. In other words, too much cortisol is very damaging.

GABA

Are you aware that people who regularly meditate have considerably increased levels of the neurotransmitters GABA? What is GABA and what makes it so good? GABA (gamma aminobutyric acid) is one of the major inhibitory neurotransmitters in the central nervous system and is best known for stabilizing mood disorders. Anxiety, tension, insomnia, and epilepsy are believed to be due to the failure to produce adequate levels of GABA. In a study at Yale, people with panic disorder were found to have 22% less GABA than people without panic disorder. Addicts, including those addicted to alcohol, drugs, tobacco, caffeine, food, gambling, and even shopping, all have one thing in common; not enough of the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA. GABA is very important.

Melatonin

Did you know that those who consistently practice meditation have dramatically boosted levels of the hormone Melatonin? What is Melatonin and what makes it so beneficial? Melatonin is a hormone manufactured in the brain by the pineal gland, from the amino acid tryptophan. Levels of melatonin in the blood peak before bedtime and its function is to create restful sleep. Stress significantly lowers melatonin levels. Research has also revealed that it is a powerful antioxidant. Do you sleep like a baby every night? Now you can.

Serotonin

Are you aware that those who regularly meditate have significantly increased levels of the hormone Serotonin? What is Serotonin and why is it so good? Serotonin is a main neurotransmitter and neuropeptide that influences mood and behavior in many ways. Depleted serotonin levels are linked to depression, obesity, insomnia, narcolepsy, sleep apnea, migraine headaches, premenstrual syndrome, and fibromyalgia. It is used in treating anxiety and depression related disorders, drugs like Prozac, Paxil, and Zoloft boost serotonin. Do you think Serotonin is important?

Endorphins

Did you know that those who consistently practice meditation have considerably higher levels of Endorphins? What are Endorphins and what makes them so beneficial? Endorphins are a category of neurotransmitters created by the body and used internally as a pain killer. This categories of compounds gives an all-encompassing sense of happiness. They are thought to reduce blood pressure and have been linked in the fight against cancer. Endorphins are most well known to those who exercise, producing what is known as 'runner's high'. To sum, Endorphins are extremely beneficial plus they make you feel really good.

DHEA

Are you aware that people who regularly practice meditation have dramatically boosted levels of the hormone DHEA? What is DHEA and what makes it so good? We now know that low levels of DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone) are strongly associated with heart attack risk, diabetes, cancer, osteoporosis, rheumatoid arthritis, obesity, and chronic fatigue. It enhances memory, alleviates depression, and causes a remarkable improvement in a person's sense of psychological and physical well-being. Lastly, we know that it so strongly supports the immune system that many scientists have become convinced that a deficiency of this very hormone factors extensively in the immune system's collapse during old age. It improves sleep, and seems to decreases stress, increase the sex drive in some people. Do you think DHEA is important?

HGH
Did you know that those who regularly practice deep meditation have dramatically boosted levels of Growth Hormone (HGH)? What is HGH and what makes it so good? Your body naturally produces growth hormone - it stimulated growth throughout your childhood and sustains your tissues and organs all the way through your life. Starting in your 40s, your pituitary gland, the pea-sized structure at the base of your brain where growth hormone is produced, gradually decreases the amount of HGH it creates. The body's diminishing supply of HGH causes the frailty that comes with aging - decreased bone density, decreased muscle mass, more body fat, weakening heart contractions, poor mood and motivation, and poor exercise capacity. You can see why so many people have been taking HGH! HGH is very important!




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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: deranger]
    #9016502 - 10/02/08 02:06 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

wow.. and all from meditation? I'm intrigued..
And I just found out about melatonin a couple of weeks ago.
Do you meditate synthetic?


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: Kickle]
    #9016647 - 10/02/08 02:39 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
This is the way I see it helping in the long term.
Operant conditioning creating cognitive shifts.

For those interested...
Operant conditioning can be described most simply as punishment and reinforcement. Reinforcement being anything that increases the likelihood of a behavior. Punishment being the opposite, anything that decreases the likelihood of a behavior.

Punishment and Reinforcement can then be broken down into positive and negative.
Positive being the addition of something. In reinforcement, the addition a reward. In punishment, the addition something aversive.
Negative is the removal of something. In reinforcement, the removal of something aversive. In punishment, the removal of something pleasant. 

Anxiety is negatively reinforcing. As you experience the aversive effects, you seek to remove them. Removal of the aversive leads to reinforcement of that action. ex) You go to a party, become anxious, and leave sooner than if you didn't have the anxiety. When you leave, the anxiety fades away. This reinforces leaving the party early. Before you know it, you're leaving the party before you get there.

So in the pills case, it can alleviate that negative reinforcement by keeping you at the party from start to finish. This in turn can lead to positive reinforcement (addition of something pleasant). With enough positive reinforcements, your concept of what a party entails may shift.

Note: Classical conditioning can be easily included in this, but I didn't want to make this post longer than it already is. This is just an overview of how I see Xanax being able to aid in the removal of anxiety long term, without the need for addiction.

setback... memory loss would make learning difficult. If you experience severe memory loss, it is my opinion that it is time to cut it off.




:thumbup:

Excellent post!  You have a good understanding of it!


I think the key is self control - using it as a medication and using it only when really necessary and planning not to use it everyday and stopping once the anxiety of the situation is overcome.

Xanax is not a drug I take for fun.  Although some people say it causes euphoria, I have not felt any euphoria from it.

I found with larger doses it doesn't have the effects I require - at 3mg + it makes me dizzy, sleepy and impairs cognitive thought.  1-2 mg is a good enough dose to remove anxiety and also seems to have antidepressant effects although that may simply be because one is happy that the anxiety is not there!


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Re: Xanax is the shiat! [Re: doja42]
    #9016728 - 10/02/08 02:59 AM (5 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

doja42 said:
Weed is WAYYYYY better than manufactured chemical shit. 




Apart from the fact that 10 years of weed addiction turned my anxiety into 25x anxiety and almost had me a complete agoraphobic at one point.

I've come a hell of a long way from the person I was when I smoked weed all day.  I've gone from the paranoid recluse to party boy :cool:  Thats not through xanax either, I did that myself - I only learnt about and tried xanax for the first time a few weeks ago.  I believe its useful if used responsibly.  Most the stories here are far from responsible use.  They tell of kids doing it everyday with loads of other drugs to get high!

I'd also like to point out that the chemical VS natural debate is stupid and flawed.  Its one we've had here at the shroomery many times.  It doesn't matter if your THC came was synthesized in a lab or synthesized organically by a plant - its  the same fucking thing!  Chemical does not = unnatural.  Also if you trust nature so much - try some datura or some death caps then see how much you trust nature.:tongue:

Nothing personal I just have a real gripe when people try saying that herbal is better than chemical.  People that state that really have no idea what they are talking about.


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by DeathCompany

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