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 mbrown3391
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 Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: mbrown3391]
#8836807 - 08/27/08 03:06 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
mbrown3391 said:
Perhaps this experiment could be applied to improve sterility even with pressure cooked jars. One could add lactic acid purchased from a brewer's store to their culture. any thoughts?
I was referring to the actual chemical lactic acid, not a culture of bacteria. Would acidifying a growing medium be enough to obtain the sterility benefits you describe, or is the culture necessary for this?
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: mbrown3391]
#8837491 - 08/27/08 05:17 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hi mbrown3391,
I thought so too, but others told me that an acidic environment would not prevent mold. I only know for sure, that lactobacillus can effectively fight mold and prevent mold (and other fungal) spores from germinating.
From what I have read, there is more than only lactic acid. They use up carbohydrates that are easily available and are able to produce antibiotic and anti-fungal substances. You may ferment and sterilize, but then perhaps those substances get destroyed. It could also be possible that the bacteria only react on a mold attack and then produce their chemical weapons.
As my aim was finding the simplest possible method, I never tried to PC after fermenting.
Carsten
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mbrown3391
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8837624 - 08/27/08 05:39 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ok, fermentation isnt that hard anyway so i might as well ferment rather than buying lactic acid. which lactobacillus do you reccomend, L. Acidophilus? could a drop of yogurt be used to culture a liquid medium? the milk dependent bacteria would die, however L. Acidophilus (i believe) can metabolize any sugar.
Edited by mbrown3391 (08/27/08 05:41 PM)
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: mbrown3391]
#8837944 - 08/27/08 06:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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The previous pages have convinced me that there may be also other species of microbes involved, so I rely on nature and recommend not to add anything at all.
Carsten
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8839316 - 08/27/08 09:50 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hi Mycelio,
Do you mind if I provide a nice 'how-to' for isolating, culturing and mixing your own EM like BIM with a majority of LAB? It's very easy to do and I've been working on this method for a while. Anyway, it would answer 'mbrown3391' question and the info on making a LAB solution with wild genera of LAB from air would be interesting to you I think...and very on topic for this thread.
But I'm still worknig on the how-to, it may take me another hour or two or three...lots of info. Anyway, if you read this before that let me know if it's Ok or not to post it. If I don't hear from you I'll post it and then move it if you want me to.
Thanks 
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8839592 - 08/27/08 11:03 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hey,
well on second thought, maybe I'll just use that how-to to start a new thread on BIM and microbes...I need to work on the info more, I should have it done by tomorrow sometime and I'll post a new thread.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8839944 - 08/28/08 12:53 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hi Quickpick,
cool, I'm looking forward to reading a new thread about isolating and culturing beneficial microbes.
Carsten
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MycoAu
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8841429 - 08/28/08 11:23 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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It would be great to have individual threads on each type of culture and it's isolation, growth, etc. But, please, keep it concise as possible. While discussion threads are great and have their place, it's a pain trying to find individual posts in a thread to retrieve information later.
I am aware of the favorites option, but when you need ten "favorites" to highlight the particular posts you're interested in within a single thread, it gets old. Kinda defeats the purpose when you have to dig in your favorites.
Great thread BTW!
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quickpick
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: MycoAu]
#8841858 - 08/28/08 12:48 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hey MycoAu,
Yes, that's my plan, though I hope 5 new threads isn't too much in Advanced?
One for each:
LAB
PnSB
yeast
natto
combining them all into EM-like ferment
keeping master solutions of all the different microbes (I'll write this one later on)
When I do how-to threads it's always very step by step, easy to follow Then we can discuss each topic in it's own thread, and a general BIM general discussion thread would be good to, but that's not needed right now.
I'm busy today, but I should have time to work on the how-to tonight at some point and tomorrow too.
And yes, I agree this is a great thread, thanks Mycelio
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: quickpick]
#8847452 - 08/29/08 12:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks to all of you for the positive feedback and for your input here. I'm glad we can add our knowledge and discuss details without turning the whole story into religion.
Hopefully, some growers try fermented grain and the method spreads. I'm sure we can find and test more of those natural methods, not requiring a sterile environment, antibiotics, etc.
Carsten
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MycoAu
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8850364 - 08/29/08 10:15 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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 spacel0rd
anarchohippienerd
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 210
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: MycoAu]
#8864677 - 09/02/08 06:59 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have a question about fermentign straw:
Should it work similar to fermenting grain? All the stuff is in a bucket. After two days it got a bit slimy on top and started to stink. Stinking is still there to some extent. But fortunately it isn't getting worse. Otherwise my gf would hav tossed this stuff.
Is there supposed to be bubbling as with grain? Should it smell the same way? How to check if things are alrigh? PH strips, or anything else? I might ask in a pharmacy today if they have those.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8865407 - 09/02/08 10:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, for straw the procedure is the same. Take care you have clean straw and have it covered with water. Turn the bucket daily or use a clean spoon and stir around, so nothing stays at the surface for too long. Also cover the bucket. After two days it should start to smell strange. The smell is hard to describe. I'd say intense, sour and somehow fruity. To me it appears sweeter than fermenting grain.
I use straw pellets from the pet store, which bubble a lot. Every few hours the straw rises to the surface and I have to take care the bucket doesn't bubble over. When moved, the straw sinks to the bottom again. If you got ordinary straw, it may bubble less.
The slime you describe should not be there. Perhaps you better pour it off and replace water if needed.
PH strips from the pharmacy are quite expensive and won't help much here. The PH falls from 7 to 6, that's all.
The straw will be ready after three or four days of fermentation. You don't need to wait until the bubbling stops and the smell gets more fishy, though it is still usable then.
Use clean hands and press out as much water as you can before inoculation. The remaining liquid can be used as a plant fertilizer (10% fermentation liquid, 90% water) or poured on the compost pile.
Grain spawn will grow in quickly. Spores do germinate, but need two or three weeks until you see mycelium.
Carsten
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spacel0rd
anarchohippienerd
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 210
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8865546 - 09/02/08 11:14 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Oh man it got fishy very fast. And hardly fruity. I did not turn around regularly. Seems like I really messed it up. Maybe i should toss it?
Or just give it a try once I have some myc. It's not gonna hurt I guess.
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: spacel0rd]
#8865612 - 09/02/08 11:27 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you are really going to try, better discard the top layer and use some straw from below. It may be good to try again with a small amount.
Carsten
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8865789 - 09/02/08 12:04 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've been interested in substrates that don't need to be sterilized. Looks like you may have found the holy grail of those. I'll give it a try with regular store bought edibles.
Would cow shit ferment? In nature cow shit is often a sloppy wet mess, very anaerobic. Even when it dries out it doesn't allow much oxygen, that's why it gets hard like a rock and the mycelium takes a long time to grow through it all. When I left some cow shit in water by accident and poured it out weeks later, strange mushrooms grew where I poured it, that I hadn't seen before.
If it would ferment, then a mix of worm shit and cow shit with grain would probably be best.
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Mycelio
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I think people ferment cow shit and straw for methane production. Biogas fermentation involves several chemicals, which are toxic for most mushrooms. The addition of plant material, grain or sugar might improve it, but I don't know.
Carsten
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InTheRainySeason
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8874722 - 09/03/08 11:01 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I started two jars to ferment today. One of oats, another of wheat and yeast. The yeast is because it seems like the alcohol content wouldn't be very high at all in a week or two, so maybe the mycelium would survive it.
I'm going to place a few mushroom stems on the oats after draining but I'll keep the water I drained off and use it to hydrate dry worm shit and manure and see how that works. If I can get mushrooms to grow with this fermentation method at least 100 times then it's gotta be a great method cause my house is prone to contamination.
Ill compare the substrates to see which is best.
I'm going to try table mushrooms first.
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Mycelio
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Interesting. Please keep us updated.
Carsten
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Mycelio
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Re: Grain spawn without pressure cooking [Re: Mycelio]
#8876075 - 09/04/08 08:58 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Cube-Update:
In both jars the fermented grain got completely colonized and pins appeared. I used a mix of WBS and annual rye grass. Due to the small kernels it was too wet, there was some water pooling at the bottom and I had yeast growing in it, which slowed down growth. Next time I would use wheat, rye or rice and rinse better to get rid of as much yeast as possible.
So cube mycelium is able to grow into fermented grain, but it either takes very long to start or needs help by adding fermented straw.
Carsten
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