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L. acidophilus ferments lactose into lactic acid, like many (but not all) lactic acid bacteria. Certain related species (known as heterofermentive) also produce ethanol, carbon dioxide, and acetic acid this way. L. acidophilus itself (a homofermentative microorganism) produces only lactic acid. Like many bacteria, L. acidophilus can be killed by excess heat, moisture, or direct sunlight. [...]
The breakdown of nutrients by L. acidophilus produces lactic acid, hydrogen peroxide, and other byproducts that make the environment hostile for undesired organisms.

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This tells me:

1. Appearently there must be other bacteria/microorganisms than L. acidophilus

2. h2o2 prduction might be what keeps contams off

Thanks a lot Carsten for opening up this discussion. Great. Appearently you were pretty successful with this method. And if we can figure out what's happening exactly we can undertake further improvements.

MycoAu:


nice thread!   It's a really great idea!!! Has anyone tried this with p.cubes? (forgive the Q if it's obvious)

I do a lot of fermentation work with microbes for horticulture (soil food web, microbial loop, zymology, etc) in the form of EM, AEM, IMO, BIM, etc, etc.  And LAB, yeast, PnSB etc.  I also work extensively with aerobic microbial brews such as ACT.

I haven't read the whole thread yet but here a few quick thoughts:

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if you notice a whitish film on the surface, there is yeast growing on top. Use a clean spoon and remove it.

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Hm, to avoid misunderstandings... The fermentation I described works with lactobacillus, not with yeast.

But it would be interesting to know, if using yeast would produce comparable results.

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Why do you think this?  Your process should have yeast and LAB, they are kind of hand and hand in these type of anaerobic fermentations (along with other microbes in you liquid).  Have you looked at your brew under a microscope?  A few scientists I know have made very similar BIM brews and they had yeast in all cases.

Are you using an anaerobic process?  If not I would suggest you do.  This will also limit the growth of the white yeast hyphae as yeast grows in "head space" (space between liquid and cap) full of oxygen.  I like to get a cheap ($10.00) bottle of compressed Co2 for wine bottles called "wine Keeper".  It's used to keep wine fresh by putting a layer of Co2 over the wine.  You can use the same idea, and IMVHO you should for small scale, or just fill the jars all the way up.  I just squirt a little Co2 into the head space through the hole in the cap for the fermentation "double air lock"[1]. 

Here is a pic of my fermentation jug with double air lock and a fish tank heater hot glued into the side. The air-lock is used to let the Co2 out (produced by fermentation by LAB and yeast) and prevent o2 from entering, its used to keep things anaerobic.  The bung was 75 cents, the air lock was 1.50 dollars, the fish tank heater was 10.00 dollars.  You can get all these items at your local beer/wine brew shop, or online and fish tank heater at WallyWorld.  You could adapt this by putting a rubber bung into a round hole in your lid and you put the fermentation lock into the bung.  Then you can put the jars in a hot place or TiT for fermentation (85-110F is best but 75-85 will work, slowly).





And you may want to add a carbon source like organic blk strap molasses at like 0.025-0.1% per volume of water.  This molasses feeds the LAB and yeast and speeds fermentation.  Any left over molasses in grain will also feed the fungals we are cultivating

Oh and I think you mentioned it but you should use temps around 85-110F, hotter speeds fermentation and ph drop. 

You should also prolly wait a few days to a week after the initial ph drop below 4 to allow the LAB and yeast to stabilize.  You don't want to use it if the Ph is above 4, but below a Ph of 3.6 is best for horticulture and below 3.4 is required for human/pet ingestion.  (see my next post for an explanation)


Thanks for the great idea!!!  If you have any Q's feel free to PM me or ask me here. 

A buddie of mine just fermented his own rejuvalac(sp?) and has a real nice microscope he used to examine it.  I tell him about your experiment, he's really interested in the topics I am and he's really into growing editable mushrooms.  He said his liquid had a lot of yeast and LAB.

Oh yea, google for "Vinny pinto" and "EM" (Effective Microorganisms", also "IMO" (Indigenous Microorganisms), "BIM" (Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms)...and PM me and Ill hook you up a bit more

HTH!!!



[1] fermentation double-air lock:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_lock

Hi P.MenaceS

How ya doing?

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As I see it raising the Ph would only "help" reduce the risk of contams.

Try raising the Ph, or even perhaps adding a small amount of bleach to the water for the initial soak to attempt to kill off a bit of the endospores present before any of the time consuming, boil, rinse, drain, jar, refill steps.

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In terms of anaerobic fermentation (as is happening here) you actually want a ph lower than 4 and lower than 3.6 is best for mushroom culture and horticulture (below 3.4 for human/pet ingestion). 

At this low Ph you have very few, if any, harmful microbes.  Most all harmful microbes prefer a higher ph, especially in an anaerobic environment.  And the LAB and yeast tend to out-compete harmful microbes when molasses is used with heat and an anaerobic environment. 

EM, BIM, IMO, AEM, FPE, etc, etc needs to be below 3.6 or I wouldn't use it, the same goes for MycoAu's method. 

Oh and if you add bleach you will kill any beneficial microbes which are present...

HTH !!

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quickpick said:
nice thread!   It's a really great idea!!! Has anyone tried this with p.cubes? (forgive the Q if it's obvious)

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That "whiteish film" is yeast hyphae and yeast output.  So if you scrape it off you wont remove all the yeast, esp the live spores which tend to sink, you will just remove a lot of it's growth.

To inhibit yeast growth it really helps to ferment anaerobically.
[...]
Are you using an anaerobic process?  If not I would suggest you do.  This will also limit the growth of the white yeast hyphae as yeast grows in "head space" (space between liquid and cap) full of oxygen.

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So I'm confused if yeast is okay or you want to get rid of it.

And is submerged in water anaerobic enough? Anyways wiht whit rice in water there virtually is no surface to scrape something away. Good to see this topic is kept alive.