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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Philosophy is dead
    #8697846 - 07/29/08 02:43 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

If there is anything that the past 300-400 years have taught us, it is that psychology is the only thing that really matters anymore.  Philosophy eventually reduced itself to the study of pure Being, but upon further inspection, it became evident that Being is essentially nothing.  So where do we go from here?  It seems that the only logical conclusion is for each of us to study our subjective experience of Being (the mind) since this is all we have.  Consciousness is solipsistic by nature.  The problem of other minds is irrelevant.

I feel that the most important thinkers of the past 400 years are the Marquis de Sade, Nietzsche, Freud, Heidegger, and David Lynch.  Everything you need for this journey is contained within the artwork of these men.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8697865 - 07/29/08 02:46 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Oh baby!:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8697868 - 07/29/08 02:46 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

the only logical conclusion is for each of us to study our subjective experience of Being (the mind) since this is all we have.




Well put, sir.  :thumbup:

I would expand this (which you may have intended) to include experimenting with our subjective experience.  It seems to me that much of what we take for granted regarding the way in which we experience the world is, in actuality, created by our preconceptions.

Lynch's visual experiments with depicting subjective experience are masterful.  He has managed this to an extent I have not seen among American filmmakers. 

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8698076 - 07/29/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:
If there is anything that the past 300-400 years have taught us, it is that psychology is the only thing that really matters anymore.  Philosophy eventually reduced itself to the study of pure Being, but upon further inspection, it became evident that Being is essentially nothing.  So where do we go from here?  It seems that the only logical conclusion is for each of us to study our subjective experience of Being (the mind) since this is all we have.  Consciousness is solipsistic by nature.  The problem of other minds is irrelevant.





Well this is one opinion... which I happen to agree with. :shrug:


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8698104 - 07/29/08 03:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


Lynch's visual experiments with depicting subjective experience are masterful.  He has managed this to an extent I have not seen among American filmmakers.





Most Americans, or Westerners period, don't have patience for Lynch. It's unfortunate, but the focus is on story. Introduction, climax, dis-elevation, credits. Same reason most folk have seen X-Men 3 but look very confused when you mention Memento.

:shrug:

Philosophy ain't dead. It's nice to have new social contexts available to re-interpret old ideas. That's evolution, without DNA. More fresh.


~Monk

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Offlineclearsight
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8698217 - 07/29/08 03:49 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

:whistling:  Imagine there is another way (lenda) to perceive the world that is falsifiable (Popper rules). Imagine that physics, biologie, psychologie and chemistry are only a subset of this perception lenda (in the same way as planets observed by grecs are subset of modern physics). Lenda does not contradict modern physics, it includes it as subset.

How are you gonna see lenda with your chemistry and psychological analysis? Philosophy is more necessary than ever :smirk:

Is it pure utopie to believe lenda exists?
I don't think so. With the invention of writing, humanity has opened the door of another world. There is no way we have discovered everything in 5000 years, in fact we still have no idea why writing had such an impact on our development. We are just at the beginning of a very long journey. 
:tunnel:

Edited by clearsight (07/29/08 03:59 PM)

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: clearsight]
    #8698232 - 07/29/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

clearsight said:
You assume the way we perceive reality today (physics, biologie, chemistry) is the only true reality. You assume variance of our perception have only psychological and chemistry explanations.




That's not what I'm saying.  You're not grasping what I mean when I refer to the concept of Being.  I didn't fully understand it either until I used LSD.  When I talk about perception as reality, I mean your immediate perception, like right now, what you are experiencing as you read this.  Subjective human experience of reality.  That is all we have.

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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8698299 - 07/29/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

But that does not discount that many of us, especially in western culture, use our time of immediacy to construe estimations of the past and the future immediacies.

To discount that we have a vested interest in our conceptions of the past and present is to be... well, Buddhist, maybe? Certainly not something you will be seeing much of. Even immediacy requires the past and future of experience for introspection to correctly interpret the present. Unfortunately, using LSD all the time is; a great way to build a dangerous tolerance, and become equally lost as someone else stuck in any other specific mind frame.


~Monk

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Offlineclearsight
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8698315 - 07/29/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:
You're not grasping what I mean when I refer to the concept of Being.




I read in details ur text again and I effectively did not grasp wat u were saying.

Edited by clearsight (07/29/08 04:18 PM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: numonkei]
    #8698320 - 07/29/08 04:08 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Recalling the past and imagining the future are part of our immediate experience.  We cannot experience the past or the future, only the present.

What does contemplating the past/future have to do with philosophy?  How would having a conception of past/future contradict the idea that psychology is more relevant than philosophy?

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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8698470 - 07/29/08 04:53 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

This is why I belive there must be consciousness that expanded in twist and turned, dancing into what we have today, that some may call a creator.

Self-connecting (not created, nothing is created, only connections are made) consciousness that becomes.

Consciousness is the only thing we know (err.. I know) for sure that exists.

Being is the root of philosophy.  Philosophy is not dead, specially considering our recent hightened awareness of what energy and how it is connected with us.  We are beginning to appreciate how alive everything truly is.  Well, atleast I am.  The rest of you don't exist.

I am God. :rebelride:


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

Edited by Ginseng1 (07/29/08 04:58 PM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Ginseng1]
    #8698486 - 07/29/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

What if consciousness is an emergent property?  While it is likely true that nothing is created, it can be observed that elements may be arranged in increasingly complex forms.  These complex forms are capable of things which the individual elements are not.  Have these capabilities been created from "nothing"?  No.  They have arisen from increasing complexity.

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Offlineclearsight
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8698538 - 07/29/08 05:14 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
What if consciousness is an emergent property? 




god is gonna be disappointed  :rofl:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: clearsight]
    #8698546 - 07/29/08 05:15 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Who?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8698554 - 07/29/08 05:18 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

You know, santa.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8698555 - 07/29/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

What if?

What if every life bearing planet eventually harbours intelligence if the proper planetary conditions are sustained for long enough?  Then emergent property of consciousness, bound by physical principles, would have even more to say yet about consciouness and it's connection to energy.  An have an interesting twist to this story could be unraveled in the future...

Quote:

Consciousness is solipsistic by nature.




--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

Edited by Ginseng1 (07/29/08 05:20 PM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Icelander]
    #8698556 - 07/29/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

The fat dude in the red suit?  What does he have to do with consciousness?  I mean, aren't we supposed to be asleep when he makes his deliveries?

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Ginseng1]
    #8698560 - 07/29/08 05:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Or it could be just a one-off.  :shrug:  We may never know.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8698777 - 07/29/08 06:11 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

The problem of other minds is such a dark little cavern the ego sinks into. The ego in its lowest, most disgusting manifestation bitterly reacts to the presence of other autonomous beings, completely unaware it is a false imprint upon a dream character.


--------------------

Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all.

joseph campbell


For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

jesus

Edited by burgatory (07/29/08 06:15 PM)

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Offlineburgatory
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: burgatory]
    #8698796 - 07/29/08 06:14 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

... and philosophy was always dead! I think I read in a Ken Wilber book about philosophy being a kind of endless long division based on the false assumption of a dualism.


--------------------

Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all.

joseph campbell


For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

jesus

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8699126 - 07/29/08 07:39 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:
If there is anything that the past 300-400 years have taught us, it is that psychology is the only thing that really matters anymore.  Philosophy eventually reduced itself to the study of pure Being, but upon further inspection, it became evident that Being is essentially nothing.  So where do we go from here?  It seems that the only logical conclusion is for each of us to study our subjective experience of Being (the mind) since this is all we have.  Consciousness is solipsistic by nature.  The problem of other minds is irrelevant.

I feel that the most important thinkers of the past 400 years are the Marquis de Sade, Nietzsche, Freud, Heidegger, and David Lynch.  Everything you need for this journey is contained within the artwork of these men.




:rofl2:


--------------------

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8699201 - 07/29/08 07:59 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.  That list of "all the thinkers you ever need to know" made me chuckle.

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: xFrockx]
    #8699210 - 07/29/08 08:01 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
That list of "all the thinkers you ever need to know" made me chuckle.




That is not what was said....    :wink:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: xFrockx]
    #8699249 - 07/29/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Yeah, my thoughts exactly.  That list of "all the thinkers you ever need to know" made me chuckle.




Obviously one will eventually expand but those guys are just staples for me personally.  Sort of a core group whose work really resonates with my experience of reality.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8699304 - 07/29/08 08:22 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I wouldn't disagree that they are important and very great people to study from, but its hard to appreciate them in full without knowing the people before them that inspired their work. 

I defintitely don't think philosophy is dead though, far from it.  Philosophy is just the love of knowledge, and as long as we have knowledge to love, there will be new philosophy.

Edited by xFrockx (07/29/08 08:25 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: xFrockx]
    #8699328 - 07/29/08 08:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Philosophy isn't dead; unfortunately. It's just boring.

Psychology on the other hand is too scary to be boring. "Fear is never boring" -The Bears


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Icelander]
    #8699569 - 07/29/08 09:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Psychology is nothing without philosophy.  Philosophy lays the groundwork for how it can be appropriately used, as it does for all sciences.  To say philosophy is boring is to say that the way human beings handle information processing and theory is boring.  Well, maybe to you man, maybe to you.

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: xFrockx]
    #8699628 - 07/29/08 09:31 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Psychology is nothing without philosophy.




I disagree.  The psyche is an immediate reality common to all living organisms, or at least the ones that are currently conscious.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8699994 - 07/29/08 10:58 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
Yeah, my thoughts exactly.  That list of "all the thinkers you ever need to know" made me chuckle.




Obviously one will eventually expand but those guys are just staples for me personally.  Sort of a core group whose work really resonates with my experience of reality.




:thumbup:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, imo.  Psychology enables us, or should enable us, to function in the world of other human beings.  It helps us understand ourselves, others and the relationship(s) between.  Philosophy helps us to understand the world and the nature of man, aside from many other things.  Philosophy in the hands of the apt student can yield great rewards.  I pity those that cannot understand its import.

As I quoted in another thread:

Why would anyone want to raise philosophical questions such as these?  The answer is that without philosophy life is lived on the intellectual surface of things.  People may live intense lives without philosophy.  They may devote themselves happily to their careers, love their families, care deeply about social causes, have interesting hobbies, and travel to beautiful faraway places.  Their lives may be rich in experiences and beneficial to themselves and their fellow human beings.  But their lives will not be deep because they will not ask truly probing questions about life.  I am not saying that a life without philosophy is a bad thing.  (Besides, almost everyone's life has some philosophy in it.)  I am saying that a life that does not include serious and extensive philosophical probing of itself has left an important and rewarding dimension untouched and unfulfilled.

Philosophy has its shortcomings as all branches of knowledge do.  Science, psychology, mathematics, each one can be improved on.  Philosophy is no exception.  Philosophy has been with us much longer than psychology, even longer than science.  As a branch of knowledge I find it indispensible.  If more people were familiar with the common doctrines of philosophy here, there might be less arguing and much more agreement.  At least one would hope so.


--------------------

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8700049 - 07/29/08 11:12 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Ok then, tell me how you can study anything without the use of logic and theory.

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: xFrockx]
    #8700145 - 07/29/08 11:32 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't say you could.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8700613 - 07/30/08 01:32 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I'm hearing this basic sentiment more and more from people lately, and feeling it to the core myself.

It's as if for eons we have been living by codes, philosophies, winning strategies, following maps of those who have gone before, etc.

Now, one by one, people seem starved for some real honest exchange with life, others and themselves, where moments are created for the sake of the moment at hand, out of the raw materials at hand, nothing prefabricated to move into.

Before, we lived in our pre fabricated homes, designed by the codes, philosophies and strategies for getting somewhere, safer, better, further ahead.

Now, more are realizing there is no where else to go or get to up ahead that is any further, safer or better then where we are at right now, into the core of our being, into the moment right here, right now as it is.

We are breaking down the prefabricated walls of our old homes. If it is sunny, we may choose to run nakey and free, raining?, we may grab some palm fronds for shelter, cold? we may slap up a mud hut and make a fire to keep warm, leaving behind what is no longer needed to serve us in the next moments conditions.

Something is calling for us to be okay with not knowing what elements tomorrow will bring, to not even bother feeling like we need to be planning ahead, and to trust that the raw materials at hand, will alway be there, to help us take care of and respond to the changing conditions of the moment at hand.


We are all on our own trip, figuratively and literally and it's time to be okay with that.

Who am I, What am I doing, Where am I going?????
These questions are the designs of mad men.

Can one be okay with just knowing that they are here, that they do something, nothing, that they go anywhere, and nowhere at the same time.

Does there need to be more added to it? Doesn't that take the fun and freedom out of the experience of being here in this moment?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlineclearsight
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #8700815 - 07/30/08 03:16 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Does there need to be more added to it? Doesn't that take the fun and freedom out of the experience of being here in this moment?




It is good to ask questions. We, as humans, are passionnate to understand things. When we see a blue and red walls, we want to understand why this difference and we use our previous experience of walls colors and paint chemistry for it.

In the same way, because we perceive distinction between the wall and "I", we are trying to understand what "I" is. We applies questions we used to understand the walls such as "who is, where from, what is.." to the "I" perception. These questions do not necessary work because what explains blue walls is not what explains red walls or what explains "I". A question is already a blur definition of things, a question assumes a context. If some questions do not find answers, it is because the context assumed is wrong, not that we are mad.

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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #8701133 - 07/30/08 07:39 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Great post jiggy.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: xFrockx]
    #8701191 - 07/30/08 08:12 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Well, maybe to you man, maybe to you.

Who else can I speak for?:shrug:

It's only boring for me because I  spent many years looking into the "deep" meanings of life. It seems much or most of it is wishful thinking and death anxiety. I really doubt that looking into philosophy has had a life enhancing quality for most people, at least in the way I judge it. I certainly detect a lot of angst around here. Of course the same can be said for psychology so maybe it's all in the way it's practiced.

Most folk would do well IMO to stay on the hedonistic level of living with a live and let live attitude IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (07/30/08 08:18 AM)

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Icelander]
    #8701263 - 07/30/08 08:41 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think philosophy is dead, it just requires an arbitrary point of reference, or it becomes irrelevant. At least thats I how look at it.

Edited by capliberty (07/30/08 08:42 AM)

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: clearsight]
    #8702408 - 07/30/08 01:49 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

clearsight said:
Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Does there need to be more added to it? Doesn't that take the fun and freedom out of the experience of being here in this moment?




It is good to ask questions. We, as humans, are passionate to understand things. When we see a blue and red walls, we want to understand why this difference and we use our previous experience of walls colors and paint chemistry for it.

In the same way, because we perceive distinction between the wall and "I", we are trying to understand what "I" is. We applies questions we used to understand the walls such as "who is, where from, what is.." to the "I" perception. These questions do not necessary work because what explains blue walls is not what explains red walls or what explains "I". A question is already a blur definition of things, a question assumes a context. If some questions do not find answers, it is because the context assumed is wrong, not that we are mad.




Being who you are, at the core , in the raw, cancels out the need to question who you are, what you are doing and where you are going. It all becomes self evident.

When we follow maps, codes, philosophies, strategies, etc for living, we are making ourselves be things artificially. After years, decades of doing that, it's a no wonder people start asking themselves, who am I, what am I doing, where am I going? It's a no wonder the need for psychology even arised.

When you think about it, psychology helps us understand how we came to the place we are, that has us feeling all jazzed up, out of sorts, confused, lost.

From little on, we are all told, how to be, who we are to act more like, what to do, where we want to go in our lives.

We become so far removed from the raw truth of our core being.

The maps, codes, philosophies , strategies, give us a false sense of security and safety that we are acting and doing things right, heading in the right direction.

How refreshing, raw and real to just be, whatever it is you are in the moment.

How refreshing raw and real, to just do what the moment inspires you to do.

How refreshing, raw and real, to just go deeply into those moments , because that is the only place we really ever find ourselves no matter where we are or what time it is.

Sure we all love/use our tools for understanding ourselves, others and for navigating our way through life. I think for the person who has discovered how to just be in their raw core has no need for them.

This is simplified by summing it up as the zen of being.

The sad funny thing is that, somehow, we have become so far removed from ourselves mentally, emotionally and physically, that just being ourselves has had to become a philosophy for living again. It's true, it's silly, think about that for moment.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #8702448 - 07/30/08 01:55 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

When we follow maps, codes, philosophies, strategies, etc for living, we are making ourselves be things artificially.

tell that to the education system... :grin:

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: deranger]
    #8702492 - 07/30/08 02:02 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

he may be crazy, but definitely fun...


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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: deranger]
    #8703099 - 07/30/08 04:10 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Philosophy is for those asking questions. Jiggy is talking about self-acceptance but its poisonous element is passivity and ignorance. The peak of a psychedelic experience is like death. The psychedelic experience is a rite of passage. It's there to remind us all what life is. So, why you are falling in love with death while you are living? Shouldn't you do something? Like... to live using 100% of your potential instead of spending hours and hours of finding excuses for your drug abuse?


--------------------
enjoy life!

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8703517 - 07/30/08 05:40 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:
If there is anything that the past 300-400 years have taught us, it is that psychology is the only thing that really matters anymore.  Philosophy eventually reduced itself to the study of pure Being, but upon further inspection, it became evident that Being is essentially nothing.  So where do we go from here?  It seems that the only logical conclusion is for each of us to study our subjective experience of Being (the mind) since this is all we have.  Consciousness is solipsistic by nature.  The problem of other minds is irrelevant.

I feel that the most important thinkers of the past 400 years are the Marquis de Sade, Nietzsche, Freud, Heidegger, and David Lynch.  Everything you need for this journey is contained within the artwork of these men.





Psychology is, for the most part, bullshit.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Poid]
    #8703561 - 07/30/08 05:47 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Nice statement of "fact."  Care to elaborate?  :grin:

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8704228 - 07/30/08 08:22 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

The high priests of psychology are often full of shit.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Icelander]
    #8704245 - 07/30/08 08:27 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

aren't we all...

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: deranger]
    #8704256 - 07/30/08 08:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

who knows


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Icelander]
    #8704266 - 07/30/08 08:29 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I know that I know (bs)

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: deranger]
    #8704758 - 07/30/08 10:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

That video.  Is that Art Bell?


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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8704787 - 07/30/08 10:24 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

alex jones show http://prisonplanet.tv/

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: deranger]
    #8704811 - 07/30/08 10:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I was kidding.  :tongue2:  :lol:


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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8704836 - 07/30/08 10:32 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know art bell :tongue: I'm guessing it has to do with new age and conspiracy.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: deranger]
    #8704862 - 07/30/08 10:36 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Art Bell is one of the most clear-headed, no nonsense, rational men I know that believes in ghosts, crop cicles, UFO's and other supernatural phenomena.

Alex is just nuts.  :lol:


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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8704919 - 07/30/08 10:47 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

yeah, you won't find me paying much attention to him... nor icke.  but they are dead on about some things though.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: deranger]
    #8704946 - 07/30/08 10:50 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I don't like the direction my thread has taken.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: deranger]
    #8704957 - 07/30/08 10:52 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Agreed.


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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8704963 - 07/30/08 10:53 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

:bitch:

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: deranger]
    #8705066 - 07/30/08 11:06 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

B-b-but...  it's MYYY thread!!!

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8705080 - 07/30/08 11:08 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

your thread... my post :crankey:

(ok I'm done)

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8705082 - 07/30/08 11:09 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Mods lock this please.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8705301 - 07/30/08 11:49 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:
B-b-but...  it's MYYY thread!!!



Quote:

it stars saddam said:
Mods lock this please.




Mods, please don't lock this thread, as it will only further prove that it was indeed his thread, and he will have the dreaded last word....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8705468 - 07/31/08 12:33 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:
I feel that the most important thinkers of the past 400 years are the Marquis de Sade...




Quote:

...whose work really resonates with my experience of reality.




:badslave:

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8705540 - 07/31/08 12:51 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I'd be nothing without the Marquis.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8705860 - 07/31/08 02:46 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I'm reading Freud's Interpretation of Dreams right now.

I've had a philosophy professor tell me that alot of psychology is bullshit.

I don't believe him. Every thinker is going to have their moments of being... well, wrong. Perhaps in his later work which I'll get into soon enough, he falls out of the rocker, but right now I'm loving reading about the basis for most of his work.

Psychology as a whole has largely moved away from Freud and psychoanalysis toward Skinner and his testable behaviorism, but I think the advancement of brain scanning and science in general can begin to start piecing together the layers of complexity that cause conciousness to arise.

I'd be a liar if I told you guys that philosophy is dead, but I do feel that one of the leading edges in philosophy is psychology.

This stuff makes me think of my free will v determinism thread. I agree with Freud that mentally, everything is determined. No word or image can just appear in your thoughts or even your dreams unless it has been seen or experienced in the waking state.

Mental determinism. I can't wait for this semester to start!!!! I love being a psych student!!!!


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: dill705]
    #8705890 - 07/31/08 03:02 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

My psychedelic experiences have helped me to internalize many Freudian concepts.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8705900 - 07/31/08 03:06 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I've only done a shrooms and salvia (yuk), and either LSA or an RC, sold to me as LSD of course.

I feel the desire to trip and think about some of this Freud stuff I'm taking in, and see where that takes my mind.

I think I have a beautiful mind and I make great connections. I also need to meditate on my time=god concept.

I need more ways to argue for it other than by determism. :strokebeard:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #8706106 - 07/31/08 04:49 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Being who you are, at the core , in the raw, cancels out the need to question who you are, what you are doing and where you are going. It all becomes self evident.






Psychedelics help us to see everything we feel, we perceive is constructs of the brain. Nothing is experience independent.


Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
The sad funny thing is that, somehow, we have become so far removed from ourselves mentally, emotionally and physically, that just being ourselves has had to become a philosophy for living again. It's true, it's silly, think about that for moment.




Why is it negative to be far away from our natural being? why is it negative to ask questions?
Asking questions is a way to express oneself like painting or chatting. Some people enjoy being mortal, not god.

Edited by clearsight (07/31/08 05:31 AM)

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: dill705]
    #8706419 - 07/31/08 08:34 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dill705 said:
I've had a philosophy professor tell me that alot of psychology is bullshit.




QFT

A lot of psychology is bullshit, but so is a lot of philosophy, science, etc.  Plurality of truth isn't something that can be had when it comes to certain fields of inquiry.  If one particular theory of human behavior is correct, the others, by default, will be incorrect.  Where we often run into error in psychology is if a certain school aids us in recovery or helps us live a better life.  Practically or pragmatically it may be spot on, but it still may contain numerous errors within its theoretical framework.


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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8706553 - 07/31/08 09:31 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Psychology is a crutch.  You don't get anywhere if you're hopelessly in need of some schmuck to help you.  That's called dependancy.  Freud what a basketcase who thought he could understand the human condition by studying crazy people.  I think Freud also wanted to fuck his own mom (WTF?).  Freud couldn't fix his own issues so why do you think his ideas could fix anyone else???

Stepping back from your own mind is the only way I've encountered to fix one's personal mental garbage. 

I'm thinking that cosmic consciousness is real.
The individualized God appears to be very real but I am suspecting that it may be an anthropomorphic projectional mask placed over something that is cosmic, impersonal, but nonetheless intelligent.  I have not been able to get in touch with that "individual" again.  I'll have to have some questions prepared.

Yeah, psychology is just obsessing over your own personal mental issues.  "Whatever you focus on becomes stronger".-
quote from my yoga/reiki teacher friend.

Edited by Mr.Al (07/31/08 09:37 AM)

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Mr.Al]
    #8706571 - 07/31/08 09:37 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I think you might be confusing psychology with the practice of psychiatry.  They are not the same.

IMO, it is important to realize that psychology is the study of the mind in action.  In order to study the mind, one must take a step back from it.  This means observing one's own behavior, one's own thoughts, and the consequences of both.

Studying one's own psyche need not involve a psychiatrist, and certainly does not require dependency.  What it requires is enough presence of mind to become an observer of one's own psyche.  If we are lost in "obsessing over personal mental issues," we cannot be an observer.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8706590 - 07/31/08 09:51 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

That sounds more like meditation than psychology.
Psychology treats the symptoms and thus the individual remains troubled.  Meditation gets to the root of the problem.  I think you are correct.  I just think you are describing meditation and not psychology.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Mr.Al]
    #8706606 - 07/31/08 09:58 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Again, you are referring to psychiatry, not psychology.  Psychology does not treat anything, it is a school of thought.  Meditation, biofeedback and yoga have all been studied within the field of psychology.

Quote:

Psychology is an academic and applied discipline involving the phenomenological and scientific study of mental processes and behavior.

Psychologists study such concepts as perception, cognition, emotion, personality, behavior, interpersonal relationships, and the individual and collective unconscious. Psychology also refers to the application of such knowledge to various spheres of human activity including issues related to daily life—e.g. family, education, and work—and the treatment of mental health problems.

Psychology attempts to understand the role these functions play in social behavior and in social dynamics, while incorporating the underlying physiological and neurological processes into its conceptions of mental functioning.

Psychology includes many sub-fields of study and application concerned with such areas as human development, sports, health, industry, media, law.




Treatment of emotional problems is one application of psychology, not the entire field.

As this was my college major, in addition to a subject of intense independent study for 20+ years, I know quite a bit about it.  :grin:

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Mr.Al]
    #8706658 - 07/31/08 10:19 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Stepping back from your own mind is the only way I've encountered to fix one's personal mental garbage. 






If you step back and look at yourself, you will use the same mask you use in your life. This makes it difficult to see one own psychological issues.
It is useful to have someone from the outside. This person will not be anywhere from right but he will bring fresh information into the loop.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8706672 - 07/31/08 10:26 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

That's cool.  I just think that it's not really necessary to attempt to deal with every little detail in relation to the mind.  I mean sure, it's great for securing employment and such.  But instead of trying to deal (individually) with the infinite insanities that the mind throws at you perhaps the key to fixing the situation is to stop identifying with the mind and thus be able to put it to real use.  Learning and accumulation of knowledge is useful if it has a practical application (i.e. mycology). 

Unfortunately the accumulation of knowledge solidifies the hold the mind has upon the consciousness.  We become slaves to our minds and identify with our individual ego personalities.

We becomes a well educated populace that is still insane.  We are still fear based and accumulation of learning will not fix that.

Accumulation of knowledge = fullness
Dropping of mental identification= emptiness
Emptiness is the beginning of understanding

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8706693 - 07/31/08 10:32 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

nevermind

Edited by xFrockx (07/31/08 10:33 AM)

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Mr.Al]
    #8706699 - 07/31/08 10:34 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

See how our egos are at play?:rofl2:
The best thing I know to do is just to be aware of it.
Increasing awareness is our paramount importance.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Mr.Al]
    #8706702 - 07/31/08 10:35 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I think that my definition of "mind," which corresponds to the psychological definition, is more expansive than what you are referring to with this term.  Our ability to alter our mental experience (aka "mind") is the only valid method for escaping the enslavement of a life lived on "automatic pilot."  There are many techniques which may be applied towards altering our mental experience, yet they ALL rely upon developing an understanding of what we are dealing with.

IMO, psychology is the way to develop this understanding.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8706941 - 07/31/08 11:41 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I think that my definition of "mind," which corresponds to the psychological definition, is more expansive than what you are referring to with this term.




Exactly.  In fact, I thought I explained my understanding of the 'mind' quite clearly in the initial post.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8707012 - 07/31/08 12:01 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

As far as I can see, there is no difference between the subjective consideration which is crucial to philosophy, and the phenomenology that is considered psychological. I wish someone would actually address this in definitive terms, and either convince me otherwise in rational terms or not.

Lately I have been accused of psychoanalyzing in these forums, and also banned for this, but nobody seems to want to answer my question.

For instance, if we are merely discussing the ideas of Nietzsche (this being the context), then it does not matter whether Nietzsche went insane at the end of his life. In this context, the insane actions of Nietzsche are completely irrelevant, and reference to his sanity may be considered ad hominen.

But if the context is the pragmatic implementation of policies based upon these ideas, or if it is an existential context, this information can certainly be relavent.

Has anyone read any of the great existentialists? Dostoyevski, Kafka?

It is of my understanding, that a truly existential philosopher would not consider himself able to distinguish the difference between psychology and philosophy.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8707071 - 07/31/08 12:17 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Psychology is closely related to the Philosophy of Mind.  However, where psychology seeks verification of hypotheses, philosophy eschews the scientific approach & pursues answers through intellectual consideration and argumentation.  IMO, this method is sorely lacking, as it is more vulnerable to fantasy posing as fact.

Additionally, the Philosophy of Mind attempts to go beyond what we can reasonably ascertain, and makes assertions regarding what might be, yet cannot be verified. 

I see Psychology as practical, applied philosophy of the mind.  When practiced scientifically, it can avoid the overstepping and flights of fancy to which Philosophy is prone.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8707089 - 07/31/08 12:21 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Philosophy is responsible for the 'ontological' argument for the existence of a God entity, one of the most absurd proposals to ever be taken even remotely seriously by respectable academics (Bertrand Russell for example, though he later discarded the idea).

Edited by it stars saddam (07/31/08 01:23 PM)

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8707094 - 07/31/08 12:24 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

For anyone not familiar with this argument:

Quote:

The argument examines the concept of God and argues that it implies the existence of God: if we can conceive of God, it asserts, He must exist. The argument is often criticised as committing a bare assertion fallacy, as it offers no supportive premise other than qualities inherent to the unproven statement. This is also called a circular argument, because the premise relies on the conclusion, which in turn relies on the premise.




:rofl:  :rofl2:

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8707123 - 07/31/08 12:29 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Psychology is closely related to the Philosophy of Mind.  However, where psychology seeks verification of hypotheses, philosophy eschews the scientific approach & pursues answers through intellectual consideration and argumentation




There is a difference between thought within a context (as you said logical), and the kind of thought that happens without a context - Thinking outside the box. But this difference does not define the differences between philosophy and psychology, rather it seems to describe a certain polarity of rational and intuitive thinking.


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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8707137 - 07/31/08 12:33 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Both rational and intuitive thinking are studied within the field of psychology.  Actually, I didn't say "logical."  The distinction between philosophy of mind & psychology has nothing to do with types of thinking, it has to do with the way in which all types of thinking are investigated. I'm not sure exactly what you mean.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8707409 - 07/31/08 01:20 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Veritas has some gravitas with the psych department. 

The power of the mind FTW!


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: xFrockx]
    #8707529 - 07/31/08 01:36 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
nevermind




FTW  :thumbup:

However, while psychology seeks for verification of hypotheses, it often comes up with contradictory conclusions based upon faulty reasoning.  Karl Popper had a lot to say about this.  (I am a HUGE fan)

Testing a hypothesis by analyzing its logic is just as important as any other data or verification.  Philosophy shouldn't be criticized for using a different method than science, even a soft science like psychology.  They function in different strata.  That would be like criticizing a fish because it swims rather than flies.


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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8707568 - 07/31/08 01:43 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:
Philosophy is responsible for the 'ontological' argument for the existence of a God entity, one of the most absurd proposals to ever be taken even remotely seriously by respectable academics (Bertrand Russell for example, though he later discarded the idea).




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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8707652 - 07/31/08 02:00 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Hongos said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
nevermind




FTW  :thumbup:

However, while psychology seeks for verification of hypotheses, it often comes up with contradictory conclusions based upon faulty reasoning.  Karl Popper had a lot to say about this.  (I am a HUGE fan)

Testing a hypothesis by analyzing its logic is just as important as any other data or verification.  Philosophy shouldn't be criticized for using a different method than science, even a soft science like psychology.  They function in different strata.  That would be like criticizing a fish because it swims rather than flies.




Psychology is a very broad term.  I'm not so much interested in behavioral psychology or even neuropsychology.  When I talk about psychology, I'm coming at it from a phenomenological perspective, which I suppose would be more along the lines of psychoanalysis or existential psychology, but I wouldn't want to limit myself to any one particular 'school of thought.'  They are all interrelated to a large degree.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8707738 - 07/31/08 02:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Consider a hierarchy of "approach to knowledge". I would put philosophy at the top of the hierarchy, with psychology, with its emphasis upon phenomenology being a branch of this. (this is why I think there is no true difference, or at least not a difference like it is considered around here.) From what I take it, you consider philosophy and psychology as two branches somehow on the same level, sort of in opposition?

Scientific verification, as far as I am concerned, is a logical perspective - logical, due to it being a "closed-ended" study of cause and effect. There is the human function - relativity that is either substantiated, or like in psychology is considered somehow "self evident". In either of these cases, the investigation would be considered a science, because it is a study of function. Take Freud for instance, his approach was the causal exploration of sexual function, not of love.

But if at any time one derives any kind of substantial conclusion, it becomes a philosophical matter. The prime example of this is sanity. Considering something as self evident is fine in theory, but only as long as the investigation is truly conducted in this regaurd, where there are no implications of what sanity, happiness, God, or beauty is.  But the tendency for psychology to implicate certain speculations concerning what sanity is (which is outside the context of the self evident process), is a major drawback to it. Because these questions are not explicitly addressed, they are often assumed or implied.

Is psychology just the study of human process, or is it treatment as well? Treatment cannot even be considered until the context is substantiated. In practical terms, psychology is nothing without the essential questions of philosophy, implied or not. Psychology does not "work" unless a context is prescribed - what is happiness, what is sanity etc. These are speculative questions (open-ended), questions of philosophy. This is why I consider it a subsequent branch of philosophy.

It is no problem to label matters of the functioning mind as psychological, but it should be realized that these functions have no meaning without philosophical consideration. Similarly, I think a philosopher would be equally ridiculous if he thought he could ignore the perspective of psychology and pragmatics in general.

When speaking realistically rather than in abstract, there really is no difference between the two.

Within, or without context. Both are necessary.



Quote:

We were talking-about the space between us all
And the people-who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth-then it's far too late-when they pass away.
We were talking-about the love we all could share-when we find it
To try our best to hold it there-with our love
With our love-we could save the world-if they only knew.
Try to realize it's all within yourself
No-one else can make you change
And to see you're really only very small,
And life flows ON within you and without you.
We were talking-about the love that's gone so cold and the people,
Who gain the world and lose their soul-
They don't know-they can't see-are you one of them?
When you've seen beyond yourself-then you may find, peace of mind,
Is waiting there-
And the time will come when you see
we're all one, and life flows on within you and without you.



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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8707756 - 07/31/08 02:22 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it should be realized that these functions have no meaning without philosophical consideration.




Or perhaps they have no meaning?  This is the type of mistake I see philosophy making, that there MUST be a meaning to all of this.  Why?  Who says? 

I think that ISS was getting at the experience of existing being all that we can truly verify, all that we have.  The assigned meanings and intellectual gyrations of philosophy are not self-evident.

Do you really need to know what happiness is prior to being happy?

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8707770 - 07/31/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Equally ridiculous :shrug:

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8707774 - 07/31/08 02:26 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Ridiculous to state that meaning is assigned, and not inherent?  :confused:

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8707783 - 07/31/08 02:27 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Yea

within context or without context - substance or no substance.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8707795 - 07/31/08 02:30 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Context is about the framework of our perception, and not anything inherent to reality.  The same is true of meaning.  We want there to be meaning, just as we want there to be order and predictability, but wishing don't make it so. :smile:

Context and meaning are imposed, they are human creations to make sense of a chaotic experience.  They are no more "natural" than a Porsche.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8707811 - 07/31/08 02:34 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

But no more unnatural either

Natural, real, blahhhhhhh

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8707867 - 07/31/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

OK, if we agree that meaning is artificial, can we agree that it is arbitrary?  If so, philosophy has nothing to add to psychology.  If meaning is both artificial and arbitrary, then it is the intellectual equivalent of a "binky."  :grin:

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8707939 - 07/31/08 03:01 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

My exasperation was very psychological.

But I am all about what is real and natural. Its usually best left unsaid.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8709475 - 07/31/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Philosophers used to study things like biology, anatomy, economics, physics, astronomy, politics, psychology, and chemistry; as well as the more typical areas of "philosophy" such as ethics, metaphysics, and aesthetics. Even Adam Smith, in his time, was considered a "moral philosopher" (and not an economist.) Most of the areas of knowledge that philosophers have studied are now independent fields of knowledge that have an overwhelming amount of information in them. While modern "lovers of knowledge" may try to learn as much as he or she can about all the different fields of knowledge, it is reasonable to say that they will not gain the depth of knowledge necessary to be of any importance. So much information exists that it is unreasonable to be a philosopher in the archaic sense of the world. It would take a lifetime just to learn all their is to know about a field of knowledge as comprehensive as biology. That is why modern philosophy has been reduced to a few speculative fields such as aesthetics, ethics, ontology, existentialism, etc. Philosophy isn't dead, it is just irrelevant to the vast majority of humanity.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8709625 - 07/31/08 09:31 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I think this is alot like the idea music is dead, if anybodies heard this said. My Dad likes to argue this one, probably just to aggravate me.

He argues that music has been fully explored since the the classical era - mozart in particular. Mozart and his contemporaries' explorations of melody and harmony captured the true essence of what music should be, that we reached a peak in artistic expression 2 and a half centuries ago. While I think this point is arguable, I think music is still becoming more and more complex, although not everybody can realize this...

- but this is not the point of my post.

If it didn't occur in the time of Mozart, or Stravinsky, could this peak conceivably be reached some day in the future?

A song being only a limited length in time, can only reach a certain depth of complexity in the theoretical components of music - Harmony, melody, rhythm etc. From a theoretical standpoint, you might come up with a chord progression that you feel is unique, but it is almost guaranteed that someone has played this exact progression before.

But I think this, just like the idea that philosophy is dead, is pretty laughable. It seems to me that this deadness, is simply in reference to the deadness of theory, mechanism, cause and effect, logic, etc. This is dead in any sense, from the beauty of an original idea, to some crappy towny band. In other words it doesn't take a beautiful peace of art, or a deep philosophical understanding for the world to be dead. This can be a very basic perspective. The lifelessness of materialism, the lack of free will - we were all "dead" in the first place.

THIS is what I think is actually being referred to, when someone says philosophy is dead.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8709653 - 07/31/08 09:37 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

"Philosphy is dead" was a bit of hyperbole on my part because I do think the study of phenomenology is still very important and underdeveloped, but as for ethics and what not there's really nothing left to be said.  Relativism is self-evident.  Phenomenology should be the starting point for any psychological inquiry, in my opinion.  This is the main issue I have with strict behavioralism.  It is too firmly grounded in physicality.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8709699 - 07/31/08 09:45 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Ethics isn't really finished.  Can you tell me the correct answer to whether or not it is moral to have an abortion?

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8709700 - 07/31/08 09:45 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

If ethics is dead, than why doesn't everyone have the same?


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8709736 - 07/31/08 09:51 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Yea, I agree with alot of this.

Behaviorism is a plague to the 21st century man; its the brave new world.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: xFrockx]
    #8709738 - 07/31/08 09:51 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Ethics isn't really finished.  Can you tell me the correct answer to whether or not it is moral to have an abortion?




Morality is a social construct so it doesn't matter either way.  It is legal in this country so you won't face any consequences so who gives a fuck?  A fetus is so far from having developed self-awareness that it's really not that different than jacking off into a kleenex, just bloodier.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: dill705]
    #8709785 - 07/31/08 10:01 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dill705 said:
If ethics is dead, than why doesn't everyone have the same?




Culture, fear, media, family, etc.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8710897 - 08/01/08 06:14 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I like your posts; however, all that has been said ignores certain aspects of philosophy such as the categorical dimension.  Surely some aspects of philosophy are at odds with some aspects of psychology, however, to dismiss an entire field of inquiry because it violates some deeply held belief in some psychological notion is, to put it in psychological terms, insane.


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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8711285 - 08/01/08 09:42 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Science came out of the oven far too early to be successfully applied to something like the dynamics of thought. The assumption that it will always be possible to 'carve a chunk out of the universe' where we can manipulate boundary conditions and conclude into pure cause and effect is a poor one at best.

Since science was coming to its peak in an era where society had already sold the "rights to possibility" to "God" the possibilistic dimension was avoided like a disease in science. But even the most advanced and 'solid' sciences (physics, chemistry) are quickly coming to the realization that the the cause and effect model will not serve as an exact analysis tool. Psychology is one of the best places to demonstrate that in fact you CANNOT carve a section of the universe away from the rest of it, for analysis or any other reason. 

Since thought is inexplicably linked to whatever driving force 'causes the universe' and not just some simple cause-effect system, psychology will never encompass it.


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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8711509 - 08/01/08 10:50 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Hongos, you are exactly right, but you mistake my basic intention. My juxtaposition was an effort to show the absurdity of dismissing either psychology or philosophy.

The basic difference I would say, is within context (psychology), and without context (philosophy). Of course you can't address both at the same time, and this is why understanding their differences is necessary. A pragmatic philosopher understands that he cannot cling outrightly to either.

For instance, speaking only of WHAT sanity is, will probably not heed any practical results for a person, except a lazy idealism, and likely a sense of self righteousness (depending on how seriously he takes himself). 

On the other hand, speaking only of HOW to live, without addressing such philosophic questions as to what sanity, happiness, beauty, or God is; I think quite clearly, the brave new world Aldous Huxley described. (Thank Ford!)

While I believe we should recognize these differences - that we cannot think within a context and without a context at the same time. I think you are exactly right to realize that clinging to either perspective is insane, this is exactly my point.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8711525 - 08/01/08 10:55 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Since thought is inexplicably linked to whatever driving force 'causes the universe' and not just some simple cause-effect system, psychology will never encompass it.




Though this is stated as fact, it has definitely NOT been established that there is more to the universe than cause and effect.  This is exactly what I mean by overstepping with regards to philosophy.  Assuming facts which are not in evidence is indulging in fantasy, not engaging in rational inquiry.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8711552 - 08/01/08 10:59 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

On the other hand, speaking only of HOW to live, without addressing such philosophic questions as to what sanity, happiness, beauty, or God is; I think quite clearly, the brave new world Aldous Huxley described. (Thank Ford!)




You did not answer my previous question: is it necessary to understand what happiness is in order to experience happiness?  Also, it is necessary to understand the philosophical definition of sanity prior to being sane?  How does one reasonably ascertain what God is, and what practical difference does this make in one's experience of life?

It seems to me that inventing meanings is an unnecessary step in improving our ability to enjoy our life experience.  If one cannot verify these musings, how can they be of any real value?  If it is all placebo, why not just cut to the chase?

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8711760 - 08/01/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry I must have missed your questions.

Quote:

Is it necessary to understand what happiness is in order to experience happiness




Well I think we both know we aren't actually going to actually understand happiness; its like understanding Zen. I will probably answer this better with your next question.

Quote:

Also, it is necessary to understand the philosophical definition of sanity prior to being sane?




It is not so much about understanding sanity, it is more about understanding the limits of our language and our definitions. The main importance of this, is understanding that sanity is impossible to define. This is tantamount to our liberty. But the natural way of going about this, is asking "what is sanity"? We realize that although it is possible to elaborate quite a bit upon this, there is no definitive answer.

So when a psychologist says take this pill, it will fix you up, you then say, what exactly needs fixing?

Now perhaps you might level with the psychologist, with what you have previously elaborated upon, agree or disagree - but this is not the chief importance of philosophy. The main importance is realizing limitations. Subsequently one can better critique the positive assertions of others. The question is really not how reasonable is this doctor being (positive), but how unreasonable is he being.

This method does not clearly indicate to us in absolute terms, the meaning of life. The questions of philosophy are absolute, as opposed to vague, so we can discern the limitations of reality. You seem to want some kind of perfect method. Its not perfect, but its our best bet I would say. You ask alot about what it can do, I am simply saying what we can't reasonably do. Philosophy is pointless, yet you and I are both in a philosophy forum talking philosophy. I think the best answer for both your questions is, that there is no reasonable alternative.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8711865 - 08/01/08 12:10 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

So you're saying that philosophy is pointless, yet important?  :confused:

BTW, a psychologist cannot give you medication.  In order to prescribe drugs, a psychiatrist must attend medical school.  Psychologists may be counselors, if they choose to pursue licensure through additional education & training, but they are more likely to be researchers

As I said earlier, psychology is not primarily about treatment of mental illness.  One branch of psychology deals with abnormal psychology, and any use of medications requires med school in addition to a degree in psychology.

Psychology is primarily concerned with understanding human behavior.  Since our behaviors create our experience of life, this approach seems much more direct and relevant than the philosophical approach.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8712030 - 08/01/08 12:45 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I suppose I could have been more pertinant of the differences between psychology and psychiatry, but this has nothing to do with what I am speaking of. I am reading brave new world, and I was thinking of soma, but clearly I should not have said this, it has nothing to do with the issue.

What about the flipside of all these demands you place on philosophy? Psychology is equally useless when it does not rely on philosophy. Whats the point in understanding behavior, if it is not applied? Practically speaking, both psychology and psychiatry are considered treatment:

To get any USE out of psychology, this use must be in the context of philosophical questions, such as what is sanity, what is happiness, etc...

The idea that we can take a strictly behaviorist approach to reality (with or without pills) is absurd, because  although these philosophical questions will not be addressed, they most certainly will be implied. This is exactly what Aldous Huxley was so critical of in "Brave New World".


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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8712638 - 08/01/08 02:38 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

If philosophy cannot offer answers to the questions, it is a distraction from living the questions.  Can philosophy nail down "sanity," "happiness," "God," etc...?  No.  So why bother pretending that one can establish actual meaning/context?

Psychology goes far beyond treatment.  Anyone familiar with the field would recognize this.  Yes, for any idea to be useful it must be applied...but how does this constitute treatment in the case of psychology?  Wouldn't the same be true of applied philosophy?

Huxley was not being critical of a behaviorist approach in "Brave New World."  His novel examined the pursuit of "happiness" at all costs, not through the elimination of philosophy.  The society he depicted had removed all potential sources of stress or grief or frustration, along with all potential sources of interest, growth, connection, learning & achievement.  He envisioned a populace doped out of their minds on "soma," engaging in gratuitous sex, etc... this has nothing to do with the behaviorist approach.

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8712666 - 08/01/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

a populace doped out of their minds on "soma," engaging in gratuitous sex, etc... 

We still have yet to give this promising approach a fair try.  We need to most everyone doing it at the same time.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8712921 - 08/01/08 03:47 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


If philosophy cannot offer answers to the questions, it is a distraction from living the questions.  Can philosophy nail down "sanity," "happiness," "God," etc...? No.  So why bother pretending that one can establish actual meaning/context?




This is a pretty naive approach to philosophy IMO. It is by no means pretending to know the answers, I have already explained my views on philosophy though.

Quote:


Psychology goes far beyond treatment. Anyone familiar with the field would recognize this.




However "far beyond treatment" it goes, it is still either useful or not, so whatever you are talking about, the same burden of context applies. You see, I really don't have to understand the specifics of what you are talking about, only whether you think these specifics are useful or not.

Quote:


Yes, for any idea to be useful it must be applied...but how does this constitute treatment in the case of psychology?  Wouldn't the same be true of applied philosophy?




YES. Again, I am NOT trying to establish the "upper hand" to philosophy. If you'll recall, what you just said was actually my original sentiment, based upon the unbalanced stance of this (philosophy oriented) forum. But in the end, I would disagree with the idea that psychology somehow has the upper hand.

Quote:


Huxley was not being critical of a behaviorist approach in "Brave New World."  His novel examined the pursuit of "happiness" at all costs, not through the elimination of philosophy.  The society he depicted had removed all potential sources of stress or grief or frustration, along with all potential sources of interest, growth, connection, learning & achievement.  He envisioned a populace doped out of their minds on "soma," engaging in gratuitous sex, etc... this has nothing to do with the behaviorist approach.




hahaha ok. lets forget I said anything about brave new world.

Thanks for telling me so clearly what the novel means though. :lol:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8713177 - 08/01/08 05:00 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It is by no means pretending to know the answers




No?  What is it that philosophy does for us, then?  It might be entertaining to endlessly muse about what might be true, but if we cannot arrive at an answer, how have we benefited?

If psychology can assist us in understanding our own behavior/emotions/thoughts, and we can utilize this understanding to craft a satisfying life, where is the loss from leaving out philosophy?  After all, deciding what constitutes happiness for me is not reliant upon philosophy.  Deciding upon what constitutes beauty, God, sanity, etc...for me is also not reliant upon philosophy.

How does philosophy add to our lives?  What would we be missing if we focused exclusively on an applied psychological approach to living?

Quote:

Thanks for telling me so clearly what the novel means though.




Isn't that what you were doing when you claimed that the novel was Huxley's rant against the behaviorist approach? :shrug:

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8713522 - 08/01/08 06:36 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Huxley was not being critical of a behaviorist approach in "Brave New World."  His novel examined the pursuit of "happiness" at all costs, not through the elimination of philosophy.  The society he depicted had removed all potential sources of stress or grief or frustration, along with all potential sources of interest, growth, connection, learning & achievement.  He envisioned a populace doped out of their minds on "soma," engaging in gratuitous sex, etc... this has nothing to do with the behaviorist approach.




Well If you had just said what you thought of the book, instead of saying that this is how it is, and any other interpretation is baloney... I mean, after everything you have said, how can you talk like this? Isn't it possible that what I said could have something to do with the book, even though it has nothing to do with what you said? Ill agree, what you said has nothing to do with behaviorism...

Concerning our greater discussion here, this is exactly what I am talking about. 

The role of philosophy in my opinion, is to realize the frailty of absolutist claims. Now you are saying, if we know that we really can't know anything, why bother? Just go about your life in a nonspeculative manner...

The frailty of the philosophic perspective indicates to you that there is no way that I could truly understand the meaning of this book. This is your attitude concerning our greater discussion of philosophy, right? So in ostensible reflection of your greater attitude, certainly I am "wrong" upon principal. BUT it seems to me that this is not why you actually think I am wrong. I believe that you derived my wrongness, from your own rightness. Otherwise you would not have expressed your opinion in the way that you did.

True non-speculation, if at all even possible, is certainly easier said than done. As a matter of principal, I suppose I am open to this notion, so I don't completely disagree with you. But jeez, this doesn't make every self-proclaimed atheist a Zen sage.

(And for all you anti-personalism types - how could I have made this point without the consideration of Veritas's subjectivity? I might be incorrect in my assumption, but in theory its damn well relavent.)

Edited by daytripper23 (08/01/08 07:07 PM)

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8713636 - 08/01/08 07:08 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Hongos, you are exactly right, but you mistake my basic intention. My juxtaposition was an effort to show the absurdity of dismissing either psychology or philosophy.




No, actually I caught your intention and I agreed, which was why I didn't mention it.  I was merely pointing out a dimension of philosophy that hadn't been mentioned--the categorical.

The usefulness of the categorical dimension of philosophy is incontrovertible.  Those familiar with it would have a difficult time dismissing it.

I could say more, but at this time I think silence is a better response.

Be well.  :smile:


--------------------

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8713753 - 08/01/08 07:42 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:
...but as for ethics and what not there's really nothing left to be said.  Relativism is self-evident.




I heartily disagree. Relativism, postmodernism, social constructionism, etc are fighting a losing battle against Rawlsian-style ethics and the [now] scientifically supported Universal Moral Grammar. McIntyre's virtue ethics has made some headway, too.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8713781 - 08/01/08 07:50 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

B.F. Skinner's brand of behaviorism actually does address many philosophical questions quite forcefully. His books Beyond Freedom and Dignity and Walden Two are as much philosophy as psychology.

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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8714213 - 08/01/08 09:59 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

it stars saddam said:
...but as for ethics and what not there's really nothing left to be said.  Relativism is self-evident.




I heartily disagree. Relativism, postmodernism, social constructionism, etc are fighting a losing battle against Rawlsian-style ethics and the [now] scientifically supported Universal Moral Grammar. McIntyre's virtue ethics has made some headway, too.




Nope.  Like I said, relativism is self-evident.  You are a humanist however so as a result of your belief system you want to believe that there is somehow a moral structure inherent to reality.

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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8714278 - 08/01/08 10:21 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Relativism, postmodernism, social constructionism, etc are fighting a losing battle




Tell that to Ted Bundy.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8715909 - 08/02/08 11:39 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

No, I actually think you are wrong about the novel because I am familiar with both the book AND the author, and neither express criticism of the behaviorist approach.  If you would like to explain the basis of your assertion, I might decide that you had reasons for making it, but I would not decide that the book and author were expressing something that I know they were not.

I can see why the depiction of classical conditioning in the novel would lead you to conclude that Huxley was critical of the behaviorist approach in general, but his criticism was reserved for the specific uses of classical conditioning.  You might compare this to someone who is critical of nuclear weapons, yet not of nuclear energy.

Some interpretations are incorrect, and pointing this out is not the equivalent of making "absolutist claims."

In the future, it might be more in keeping with the rules of this forum to explain your assertions, rather than resorting (once again) to making remarks about who I am and what I believe.

Edited by Veritas (08/02/08 12:20 PM)

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8716255 - 08/02/08 01:11 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

No, I actually think you are wrong about the novel because I am familiar with both the book AND the author, and neither express criticism of the behaviorist approach.  If you would like to explain the basis of your assertion, I might decide that you had reasons for making it, but I would not decide that the book and author were expressing something that I know they were not.

I can see why the depiction of classical conditioning in the novel would lead you to conclude that Huxley was critical of the behaviorist approach in general, but his criticism was reserved for the specific uses of classical conditioning.  You might compare this to someone who is critical of nuclear weapons, yet not of nuclear energy.

Some interpretations are incorrect, and pointing this out is not the equivalent of making "absolutist claims."

In the future, it might be more in keeping with the rules of this forum to explain your assertions, rather than resorting (once again) to making remarks about who I am and what I believe.





Veritas, I respect you, but sometimes you are ridiculous. It is ridiculous to debate a work like this. With that said I would normally bow out of this one, even though I stand by my own opinion.


BUT luckily for you, in the midst of reading Brave New World revisited, written by Aldous Huxley himself in 1958, I stumbled upon this: 

Quote:


For practical or theoretical reasons, dictators, Organization Men and certain scientists are anxious to reduce the maddening diversity of men's natures to some kind of manageable uniformity. In the first flush of his Behaviouristic fervour, J.B. Watson roundly declared that he could find "no support for hereditary patterns of behaviour, nor for special abilities (music, art, etc.) which are supposed to run in families." And even today we find a distinguished psychologist, Professor B.F. Skinner of Harvard, insisting that, "as scientific explanation becomes more and more comprehensive, the contribution which may be claimed by the individual himself appears to approach zero. Man's vaunted creative powers, his achievements in art, science and morals, his capacity to choose and our right to hold him responsible for the consequences of his choice - none of these is conspicuous in the new scientific self-portrait."




You are not only disputing me but the author himself.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8716376 - 08/02/08 01:48 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Though this is stated as fact, it has definitely NOT been established that there is more to the universe than cause and effect.




You sound like a priest.

'Though this is stated as fact, it has definitely NOT been established that there is more to the universe than what is within my God's power.'


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8716508 - 08/02/08 02:26 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Again, your remarks are directed towards ME and not the ideas.  This is a simple rule--debate the ideas, NOT the other posters.

Observations on specific Behaviorists which Huxley wrote more than 20 years after Brave New World was published do not change what was expressed in the original novel.  To characterize the entire work as a criticism of the behaviorist approach is incorrect.  As I said, he was quite critical of particular applications of classical conditioning, and this was included in his novel.

I'm finished with this discussion.  I do not appreciate being insulted, and it is totally inappropriate behavior for this forum.  If one cannot debate the issues, the reasonable thing to do is to opt out of the discussion entirely.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8716516 - 08/02/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Though this is stated as fact, it has definitely NOT been established that there is more to the universe than cause and effect.




You sound like a priest.

'Though this is stated as fact, it has definitely NOT been established that there is more to the universe than what is within my God's power.'




How about disputing my ideas, rather than indulging in personal remarks?  If you can provide proof that there is more to the universe than cause and effect, please do so now.  If not, please refrain from posting irrelevant personalisms.  Thank you.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: Veritas]
    #8716834 - 08/02/08 03:49 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Observations on specific Behaviorists which Huxley wrote more than 20 years after Brave New World was published do not change what was expressed in the original novel...




After reading Brave New World I interpreted it as a criticism of behaviorism, and by some great coincidence, Aldous  Huxely himself wrote a specific criticism on the behaviorist approach in a work coincidently titled "Brave New World Revisited". Neither of these ideas has anything to do with Brave New World. :rolleyes:


Quote:


To characterize the entire work as a criticism of the behaviorist approach is incorrect. As I said, he was quite critical of particular applications of classical conditioning, and this was included in his novel.





Thats the difference between our philosophies, you seem intent on saying that the book means this, and doesn't mean that. You would catagorize the novel as such and such - a criticism on classical conditioning I guess?

I would not seriously catagorize the novel as anything. I said that it was a criticism on the behaviorist approach, but I did not limit its meaning to this. I was opening the conversation up to possible discussion, but you won't even acknowledge that the book might possibly implicitly concern behaviorism, even when it comes explicitly from the author himself.

Quote:


Again, your remarks are directed towards ME and not the ideas.  This is a simple rule--debate the ideas, NOT the other posters.




I apologize for my typo. What I meant to say is that your philosophy is ridiculous, and by that I am only referring to the ideas you have expressed in this thread. Excusing the typo, I cannot help whether you take this personally or not, concerning expressed ideas.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: daytripper23]
    #8717211 - 08/02/08 05:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Veritas, I respect you, but sometimes you are ridiculous.

Why are you having so much trouble understanding the no personalism rule?

Your bans will get progressively longer until you get this.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Philosophy is dead [Re: it stars saddam]
    #8717214 - 08/02/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
No personalisms in this forum.

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