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InvisibleGGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: du981r]
    #8534220 - 06/17/08 04:08 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Really, the most beautiful mushroom pictures I have seen for a while.
This is my favorite shroom of all time.

Still working on identifying it.
I still believe that it is a undescribed Panaeolus species.
Certainly neurotropic.

Dr. Kimbrough identified these mushrooms as Panaeolus fimicola: eliminating Pan. subbalteatus.
Dr. Guzman identified these mushrooms as Panaeolus subbalteatus: supplying no other data then that.
But what do they know :smile:

This mushroom has been tentitively named by me as Panaeolus marzulous.
All variegated; in the month of March.
Working on a paper to describe this mushroom in more detail.

I am waiting on my collections and books to arrive in the mail.
One book I only looked at for a few minutes, a older book about Southern Mushrooms (forget the author, someone well-known),
has a photograph of these shrooms.. labeled Panaeolus acuminatus
if I remember correctly.

Robert Williams (Sarasota), I am 100% certain (never talked with the person) has seen these mushrooms before.

They are certainly not Panaeolus castaneifolius as workman noted.
The spores of this species are smooth.

Apparently Gerhardt may not be able to accept Panaeolus mushroom collections from anywhere else then Germany now.. (?)
He would be the one to submit a sample to,
I can not figure out how to contact that person,
all of the weblinks I have searched are in a different language.

Patience on the identity,
I have been trying to figure it out since March 1st, 2000.
They are not Pan. subbalteatus.

Eat a batch for me.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #8534306 - 06/17/08 04:32 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

They are not Pan. subbalteatus.




What features do you use to separate it from P. subbalteatus?

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Invisibledu981r
Grower


Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 97
Loc: Toyota
Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #8534449 - 06/17/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Was wondering when you'd pipe in on this thread, GG.
I don't know.
Lawn Subbs?
Centipede Pans?

Panaeolus lawnsubbggreatoneifoliusesciiteatus var.clusterfuck


Quote:

Eat a batch for me




I fed some to a friend today, about 20 of them.
She was shroomy.  All laughing at the cat litter.
I think twice that for a 3 or 4 level.
I'm not in a head spot to trip for now, but I'll save some.

Hey, GG, I think I should take your spot here in west central as the resident fun guy.  PM me all your secret locales. :pirate:


--------------------
"Karma is just an E-L away from delicious."

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Offlinefuture
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Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 408
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: du981r]
    #8534851 - 06/17/08 07:12 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

These grow in a field I know. They are the most consistant trip i've ever met if you get what I mean. When I eat them, I pretty much know i'm in for a nice smooth sailing pretty visual and laid back trip.

Least that's the way it's been for me.

Much different then the cubes. I don't know what i'm getting myself into with them. That's why I keep my doses on cubes low as possible ( 1 gram at most ).


--------------------
I am the fakest person on this site. I only pretend to grow and consume illegal mushrooms. I have no knowledge what so ever on any scheduled substance because I know and respect the governing law in the United States of America. All pictures and dialogue posted by me is entirley copyrighted from those who wish to knowingly ignore the laws. I only post these messages as a mere propaganda technique used to gain attention and admiration from others. Thank You

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OfflineShROoMiNnBOOMiN
psychoactive ginnie pig
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Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: future]
    #8535579 - 06/17/08 11:02 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
---
-----------------------------------------------
"why fail to succeed, when you can succeed to fail?" -david medeiros

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #8535592 - 06/17/08 11:07 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Nothing succeeds like determination (except success).

Good luck in your endeavors.  :thumbup:


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OfflineN2loma
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Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #8537271 - 06/18/08 02:18 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

And they look just like Pan subs from the Washington Metropolitan Area (print too).


--------------------
"So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean/
If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be" -Divide by Disturbed

Good Guitars Don't Cry

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OfflineN2loma
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Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: enlightenme]
    #8537306 - 06/18/08 02:32 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

enlightenme said:
Those are what I got growing in my lawn. I was confused by reading keys cause I am new to this, and the lawn version of subbs doesn't seem to fit it's typical description. Do yours dry out into a greyish black color?




When I dry out the Pan subs I find they do turn gray-black.


--------------------
"So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean/
If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be" -Divide by Disturbed

Good Guitars Don't Cry

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Offlineenlightenme
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Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: N2loma]
    #8537478 - 06/18/08 03:22 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

They should make a new name for the lawn subb cause it obviously has different features than the typical subb.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: enlightenme]
    #8537639 - 06/18/08 04:13 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I wonder if anyone has done the DNA study.  Someone should ask Gerhardt. 

Maybe Curecat would do it for us.

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Invisibledu981r
Grower


Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 97
Loc: Toyota
Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8537844 - 06/18/08 05:08 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Yesterday I set up a simple grow using sterilized horse manure and spores from these Lawn pans.
I want to see if they will appear more Subb-ish when cultivated this way (if they grow at all).
When Workman grew some of GG's samples a while back the mycelia was very fast, so I should have something soon.


Yeah, Alen, DNA is the way to go.  If Curecat can't, I've a friend who is sequencing Tanager species at the moment, I can ask if he can at least sequence these lawn subbs (if he can even do fungus).  He won't be able to analyze the data, but maybe someone here could.  Compare them to subbalteatus regular and foenescii as well.


--------------------
"Karma is just an E-L away from delicious."

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: du981r]
    #8538368 - 06/18/08 08:05 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

It would be a major disappointment for me,
to have the two spiteful and rude moderators of this forum have anything to do with those mushrooms.
And you both know that for a fact,
before you mentioned it.
My recommendation would be to keep those mushrooms in southeastern hands.
But of course do what ever you wish.

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Invisibledu981r
Grower


Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 97
Loc: Toyota
Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #8538395 - 06/18/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Are you certain these are a subtropical only mushroom?
They look and seem to be the same as the other "subbs" people find on lawns all over the US.
I do not doubt that these may be a species similar to but separate from Subbalteatus, but to me it seems (from the input from the Shroomery anyway) these are very widespread.
Is this true with the other online mushroom forums?
What about in the academic community?
Surely some eager grad student in a mycology program is onto this.


--------------------
"Karma is just an E-L away from delicious."

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: du981r]
    #8549201 - 06/21/08 11:48 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

People are finding them lately at the shroomtalk forum also.

Unfortunately I cannot even sign up for a account because it seems like everyone there needs to fill out a COPPA form with their parents and then mail or fax it to them to get a account. That seems like the only way of going about it now.

Mjshroomer is spreading false and inadequate information again about Florida mushrooms. Somebody found a mixed collection of these lawn shrooms, and also lawn Copelandia mushrooms with Green staining caps. First I have ever seen that, they could very likely be Copelandia chlorocystis. All kinds of misinformation flying around that forum, enter at your own risk because you will be banned there for correcting mjshroomer.

Certainly send samples to someone if you can find the right person to send them to. I do not accept material from anyone at this website. Kimbrough already looked at them, and I suspect looking at them with a serious microscope. The collection is accessioned as Panaeolus fimicola. The folks at the U of F might not be all too helpful, not sure. There is likely a good person to send them to in Miami. Everything is in Miami to do what you describe. Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, the schools there. I would highly recommend not letting the two moderators here have anything to do with them. Especially Alan Rockefeller. I offered to send samples of this exact mushroom to that individual and was given a false address, because those two are cool like that. Giving a person a false address to send mushrooms out of the state of Florida, is like being a little snitch, a narc, a cop. Certainly someone who is not to be trusted and I would highly recommend nobody ever having anything sent to that individual because of it. The mushrooms are perfectly lawful to research in the state of Florida, keep them there.

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InvisibleDannyGlick

Registered: 04/14/08
Posts: 3,889
Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #8549291 - 06/22/08 12:26 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

:spock:

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InvisibleGGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: DannyGlick]
    #8549593 - 06/22/08 02:23 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Yes that is certainly right. I have posted at this forum almost daily for longer then my registration date shows. Never had problems until the clickity clack arrived.

Anyways, mj has seen the past few collections at shroomtalk, he knows about these mushrooms yet did not mention anything, or more likely made a mistaken reply. Mj said last year after seeing the photographs of the collections sent to Guzman, "I do not think they are subbalteatus.". Honestly, the man has something against Florida. Straight up, I do not think he found pasture shrooms in that state. He talked a lot about only going to this dinsmore dairy farm which is not even a pasture anymore, and killing snakes. Everytime he types about hunting in florida it is at the dinsmore dairy, not mentioning finding anything and just killing snakes. Why kill snakes, I don't know. He has a single photograph of supposed Florida Cubensis mushrooms posted at a shroom website of which I will not even mention. Recently the photograph was maliciously demanded by mjshroomer to be removed, so the photograph stays. The Cubes are labeled as being picked somewhere in Asia, when he used to post the same photograph here saying that they were from Jacksonville. And that photo could possibly even be at another website labeled to have grown in Florida. He says that he picked Copelandia chlorocystis at a sod farm in 1970-something with the late Bob Weeks. I know this because I researched wanting to get ahold of the person to talk about the mushrooms. Yet mj also has typed to have never found Copelandia mushrooms in Florida. Something happened to mj in that state to make him hate it. I dislike the place too, unfortunately, in a way, so I can understand. That was just my experience. I think Mj began looking for his first shrooms in Jacksonville Florida, and was completely unsuccessful. According to his papers he did not find shrooms until he relocated to the pacific northwest, Panaeolus subbalteatus north of Lane County. Later living in Hawaii for 8 something years. But I do not know, I just have a hard time believing his Florida shroom reports. Even mj said the florida lawn pans are not subbalteatus.

Subb hunter mispelled Panaeolina foenisecii in his guide.

I am already typing a reply and cannot see the original photographs, but if it is the photo I remember, the three shrooms seperated lengthwise in the collection photo are a different species. Too bad everyone at these sites eat all of the finds that could be of interest.

The Florida lawn mushrooms never grow cespitose. The stipes are very often shiney and smooth with stipe-thickness measurements never anywhere near Panaeolus subbalteatus. The flavor is different then Panaeolus subbalteatus. I have found and consumed subbalteatus enough times to know this. The Florida Panaeolus do not grow from only new lawns, in fact I have never once seen them growing from newly place sod as Teonan was reporting near Miami (I saw very little edvidence of his reports myself). They do grow at sod-farms, as I have around a dozen of the sod farm collections sitting in a box next to me. The mycelial network is different then subbalteatus, these Florida lawn Pans have a very delicate mycelial network compared to the lawn-subbs. The spores likely originate from the fertilizer, yet I have found them in lawns that were decades old and not fertilized or maintained well. Kimbrough measured the spores, in a timely manner, with some interest. He compared them to several other species of Panaeolus and one species of Panaeolina, labeling them as Panaeolus fimicola admitting he knew of no other match that could be closer then that and recommending to find a authority of these varieties of mushroom. Since Kimbrough is sitting on probably 60,000 Florida mushroom collections at the U of F accessioned over the past 100 years, never knowing about these shrooms, it makes me wonder even more. Though he was not interested enough to look at other microscopic features to compare data with the Gerhardt monograph and also the Le Genre Panaeolus monograph, of which I also have. And a paper by Singer with Panaeolus illustrations. Guzman, was, busy, writing a book about a different genus of mushroom. G<G has a serious scope I am sure, but my guess is that he spent only a few minutes looking at a specimen. If he had the time to calculate measurements, he likely would have gave his data to me. Guzman originally suggested to me that I was finding more then one species of Panaeolus in the lawns, which made me realize that could be a good possibility also. I think he was rushed with his other work, but certainly useful to hear his opinion on the identity of this mushroom. Workman has yet to be able to cultivate this mushroom, maybe two attempts I think. I was not successful cultivating this mushroom and I have cultivated subbalteatus and other mushroom species before myself. Nobody has grown them successfully, dozens of people with agar skills, and subbalteatus is one of the easiest mushrooms to grow. Everyone who has measured the spores brings me different information, probably just rushed. I am not rushed, and I have around 30 seperate collections of this mushroom sitting next to me, and quite a few will be measured with great accuracy and care. Overloaded with other projects right now and being patient to get to it until the financal aspect of spending this much time looking at the collections to be more agreeable with my time.

Spok here is probably from California, as those mushroomers walk around with mushrooms demystified in their hands for every mushroom and think everything is Panaeolus subbalteatus. They have a hard time believing there are other mushrooms on the planet that exist outside of that (awesome) book.

Certainly subbalteatus is a complex, but it is high on my list to seperate this Florida Panaeolus *somehow*.






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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #8549711 - 06/22/08 03:15 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Especially Alan Rockefeller. I offered to send samples of this exact mushroom to that individual and was given a false address, because those two are cool like that. Giving a person a false address to send mushrooms out of the state of Florida, is like being a little snitch, a narc, a cop. Certainly someone who is not to be trusted and I would highly recommend nobody ever having anything sent to that individual because of it.





Your insistence on knowing my true home address is very disturbing.  Please respect my privacy and do not accuse people of being a narc/cop without evidence. 

It is very unlikely that you really believe that. It appears that you are trolling. You are welcome to participate in the forum if you keep your comments constructive.


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Offlinepsilophile82
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Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #8549907 - 06/22/08 05:50 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Can't we all just get along? No offense GG, but I think Alan is a super valuable resource to this forum, especially to noobs like me. I know that this strain is important to you, and you want to get an accurate workup, but this whole subject should be exciting, not irritating. I understand peoples reasoning to keep personal info private, we all want that to some extent. Mushrooms are a peaceful entity, and we as mushroom lovers should follow suit. We will all be better off at peace despite our differences, and not exacerbating each others personal issues. I certainly hope for the good of the community that you get your sample into the right hands, and I think you are important to this forum, but from a fellow Floridian, lets just all be cool with one another.:heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::sun::sun::sun:


--------------------
"chaos is the nature of order"

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: psilophile82]
    #8550023 - 06/22/08 07:26 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

*sigh*

I hate drama.  I really don't want to pick sides on this, but airing our differences in public, in this forum is unwise and distasteful.  I especially do not like the fact that two men whom I admire handle this in this way.

The truth is that both of you have made significant contributions to the field of mycology.  Let's get over our differences and work together for the advancement of science, please.

I'm just saying this to be as fair as I know how publicly.

This is the best mushroom message board on the planet.

Let's keep it that way.

Thank you.  That is all.

:heart::heart::heart::heart:


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Invisibledu981r
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Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 97
Loc: Toyota
Re: ID request, Blueing Panaeolus Florida [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #8550164 - 06/22/08 09:20 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

:jointsmile:

One Love, guys, one love.


At any rate there are no less than 8 patches of this mushroom, which may be one species or several, growing in the small deed restricted enclave that is my florida home.
I am working on infecting other lawns here, hoping to make a daily round the block mushroom walk that is easy, legal, and quick.

My biggest contribution on observing these things so far is to point out the morphological variance here.  So much of how these look depends on humidity, moisture levels in the soil/grass thatch, insolation, temperature etc.  Today, from the patch that I took the first images on this thread from, I picked some "lawn subbs" that were very much more subb looking than the previous ones.  They formed during a 48 hour period of thunderstorms and 100% air humidity.  Those first, two days after a moderate rain with a much lower humidity and moisture content.

I don't know if I have point, but I won't accept any answer until its a DNA one, and you'd think mushroom geeks could get along.  Its not like we're the cool kids, here.

Shame on MJ for killing snakes.  I found a 4 foot EDB the other day, and it made the hunt.


--------------------
"Karma is just an E-L away from delicious."

Edited by du981r (06/22/08 09:22 AM)

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