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OfflineSitar
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Worm Castings - What's the catch?
    #8316997 - 04/22/08 11:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ive heard many people talk about worm castings as a substrate additive and decided to try it out.

I found a good sized bag at a local gardening center for cheap and made a few experiment jars using it. The directions said to make tea with it and water plants with the tea. I figured it would be best to use it like manure. Apparently, I was very wrong.

One set of jars had just vermiculite and worm castings, about 3 teaspoons of WC per jar. The 2nd set had the same substrate but with a little BRF added.

Jars from both sets were inoculated; some with an Oyster LC and some with spores from an exotic species.

The Oyster LC jar of set 2 showed growth just a few hours after inoculation, but then stalled and never grew any more. The first jar didnt do much of anything.

The exotic spore jar of just vermiculite and WC never did anything. Set 2 showed fair germination after a week, but then stalled like the Oyster jars.

Im assuming that worm castings should be used just like the directions said, instead of using in bulk like I was trying.

Any thoughts?

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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Sitar]
    #8317014 - 04/22/08 11:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

a jar is not bulk


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OfflineSitar
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Sitar]
    #8317031 - 04/22/08 11:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry, when I asked for any thoughts, I meant constructive ones.

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Invisiblethedefone
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Sitar]
    #8317066 - 04/23/08 12:01 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Im assuming that worm castings should be used just like the directions said, instead of using in bulk like I was trying... Any thoughts?


Quote:

a jar is not bulk


Quote:

Sorry, when I asked for any thoughts, I meant constructive ones.



Uh.. He's right? Worm castings are an additive to bulk substrates, not a substitute to BRF, or additive in PFTek. Tea is for plants, as far as I know.
Stick to the teks for a while, and read some more..


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OfflineAkira
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Sitar]
    #8317071 - 04/23/08 12:03 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why are you putting substrate in jars? Are you trying to inoculate into the Worm casting mix? You need to get some grain jars going, then spawn those to bulk once colonized.

You can use Worm Casting like manure yes, but in small ratios to your substrate mix. Reason is that Worm Casting is very fine like cow manure, and will become muddy with water.


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Orissa India Bulk Grow (Tub Tek)
Bulk Steamer Pasteurizer Tek

"Our intention is our eternal fingerprint in the universe."

We know that God is good, and so are hamburgers and hot dogs. We know that hamburgers and hot dogs definitely do exist, so then by deduction of logic God too must also exist. Hamburgers + Hot dogs = God.... Duh

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OfflineThe shroomy 1
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: thedefone]
    #8317147 - 04/23/08 12:26 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

thedefone said:
Quote:

Im assuming that worm castings should be used just like the directions said, instead of using in bulk like I was trying...  Any thoughts?


Quote:

a jar is not bulk


Quote:

Sorry, when I asked for any thoughts, I meant constructive ones.



Uh..  He's right?  Worm castings are an additive to bulk substrates, not a substitute to BRF, or additive  in PFTek.  Tea is for plants, as far as I know.
Stick to the teks for a while, and read some more..




Perfectly said. :thumbup:


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AMU Q&A thread.

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OfflineSitar
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: The shroomy 1]
    #8317193 - 04/23/08 12:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Are we gonna sit around talking semantics or actually discuss why the worm castings didn't work?

I used the term "bulk" to describe the manner in which the WC were used IN THE JARS, as in the BULK of the castings, as opposed to the tea. Are we clear now?

I know you guys don't know me yet, but TRUST ME, I have 11 YEARS of growing experience and know a lot about this stuff, I just don't know shit about worm castings yet.

As for reading, I've read EVERY thread about worm castings, okay? They all range from people talking about making tea to using huge quantities of it in substrate, to using it as a casing layer, to Agar saying that it sucks.

So now that we're on the same page, let's start over...

Any thoughts?

If it's a simple matter of something like having too much nitrogen stunting growth and I need to use much less, or something to that effect, then say so. I just need some input on the ratio from you experienced WC guys. All the threads I've read vary widely in the use of it.

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OfflineAkira
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Sitar]
    #8317207 - 04/23/08 12:53 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I dont understand what you mean by
Quote:

Sitar said:
I used the term "bulk" to describe the manner in which the WC were used IN THE JARS, as in the BULK of the castings, as opposed to the tea. Are we clear now?
\




Did you put worm casting into the jars? If so this may be your problem. What other people here refer to as bulk is the substrate you spawn the grain jars to (wild bird seed, rye, etc) once they are fully colonized.


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Orissa India Bulk Grow (Tub Tek)
Bulk Steamer Pasteurizer Tek

"Our intention is our eternal fingerprint in the universe."

We know that God is good, and so are hamburgers and hot dogs. We know that hamburgers and hot dogs definitely do exist, so then by deduction of logic God too must also exist. Hamburgers + Hot dogs = God.... Duh

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OfflineThe shroomy 1
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Akira]
    #8317486 - 04/23/08 02:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Long story short, Yes.... WC is an additive not to be used as a substrate.


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AMU Q&A thread.

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Offlineunretarded
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Sitar]
    #8318108 - 04/23/08 09:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sitar said:
Are we gonna sit around talking semantics or actually discuss why the worm castings didn't work?




User Error.......
Improper application.....
Incomplete research.......
Its as simple as you put the suppository in your ear instead of its intended location.
Simple mistake ,easily fixed,if you listen to the replies given.

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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: unretarded]
    #8318147 - 04/23/08 10:04 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

you wouldn't want to sterilize it either way

you have eleven years of experience in what? cakes?

you don't seem to exhibit much knowledge how substrates work


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Offlineamanitavirosa
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: anarchOi]
    #8318152 - 04/23/08 10:06 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Wow .. why so hostile?

Yeah .. so what if he has 11 years of experience with cakes?

You don't have to know a single thing about how substrates work in order to make use of various methods (teks). Hell, I bet you have absolutely NO clue how cellular respiration works in eukaryotes, anarchOi .. but that doesn't stop you from growing anything.


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-AV-

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Invisiblelipa


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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: unretarded]
    #8318160 - 04/23/08 10:08 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

unretarded said:
Quote:

Sitar said:
Are we gonna sit around talking semantics or actually discuss why the worm castings didn't work?




User Error.......
Its as simple as you put the suppository in your ear instead of its intended location.
.




man Unretarded thats so freakin funny! Never heard that one before. :hehehe:

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OfflineSitar
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: anarchOi]
    #8318169 - 04/23/08 10:11 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I have experience with everything from simple PF cakes, jars of all sizes, whole grains, cased trays, composted manure bulk, straw substrates, filter patch bags, liquid culture, exotic species and edible, blah blah blah... Just no experience with worm castings.

I'm glad you could bring so much to the discussion, though. You seem to exhibit SO MUCH knowledge about this.

Some experience with worm castings and a legitimate reply is all I asked for. People claim to use WC in very large amounts and other say not to. What's the scoop?

Amanitavirosa, thanks man!

Edited by Sitar (04/23/08 10:28 AM)

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Invisibleyasi
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: lipa]
    #8318194 - 04/23/08 10:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

so where is the best place to purchase WC then? The local nursery? or maybe a bait and tackle shop?


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Counting Bodies like Sheep...

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Offlineunretarded
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Sitar]
    #8318203 - 04/23/08 10:28 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/dosearch.php?terms=worm+casting+TEK
Its all listed here...........spend about 2 to 4 hours reading and you will be the guru of worm castings.

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Invisibleyasi
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: unretarded]
    #8318213 - 04/23/08 10:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks, i'm really new at this and can't even post my own thread yet. i appreciate the help.


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Invisiblethedefone
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: yasi]
    #8318227 - 04/23/08 10:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well, it seems that castings work well as an additive to bulk substrates, but apparently not very well in use in initial substrates. Perhaps it is the same as BRF, in that PFTek substrate mix is ideal for initial sporulation, and subsequent colonization in small amounts, but fails miserably as a bulk substrate? Try a liquid culture, or myc water syringe on a souped-up WC PFTek jar.. maybe that will have more success.

Fuck if I know the specifics.

(edit: I missed the LC part in the OP.)


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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

Edited by thedefone (04/23/08 11:07 AM)

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OfflineSitar
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: unretarded]
    #8318233 - 04/23/08 10:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yasi, you thread hijacker! Just kidding, it's cool.

Acommunistspy, see that's why I thought I was safe using a liquid culture on worm castings. I wasn't surprised when the spores didn't germinate on it, but I figured the LC would do okay. It just stalled early on.

Unretarded, I read just about every post there was about worm castings, and I'm just confused about the whole thing. Some people say use it just like manure, which I have experience with using both in jars & bags, and as a bulk substrate.

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Invisibleyasi
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Sitar]
    #8318457 - 04/23/08 11:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I haven't had any growth except this 1 jar in almost 2 weeks. Is this normal?


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Counting Bodies like Sheep...

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Invisibleyasi
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: yasi]
    #8318459 - 04/23/08 11:52 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

and yes, i thread hijacked again... sorry...


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Offlineamanitavirosa
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Sitar]
    #8318482 - 04/23/08 11:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Ok guys, think of WC (worm castings) as a fertilizer and not a "proper" substrate. They (in theory) could support hyphal (and hence mycelial) growth on their own but not very well.

You add worm castings to enrich the bulk substrate with more nitrogen and a few trace elements. Nothing more. Think of it as just another form of mushroom "fertilizer" really ..


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-AV-

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InvisibleSmushroom
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: yasi]
    #8318512 - 04/23/08 12:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The term "bulk substrate" is used for substrates that you spawn colonized grain to, usually in large quantities. 99% of bulk substrates won't work when inoculated with spores or LC on their own. Most bulk substrates are meant to be pasteurized, not sterilized, in order to allow for the spawning of colonized grain without contamination.

Poo/verm jars semi-work but no one uses them other than to experiment (to my knowledge). I would imagine that WC/verm jars would have the same results.

Making any PF Tek style jars with anything other than a grain flour doesn't really help much. Grain flour (BRF, Soy, Rye, etc) has a better nutrient content in a form that is easily digested by the myc then anything else you will throw in there.

Poo and Castings can't be used on their own due to consistency. When water is added they turn to mud. You could do a 60/40 castings and straw substrate and spawn grain to it and be just fine. You problem is doing it in jars PF Tek style.

yasi: Don't post in other people's threads. Read the forum before you ask questions like that. I am sure there are 100 pics just like that one in the first 5 pages of the cultivation forum.

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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Smushroom]
    #8318738 - 04/23/08 01:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

so you're saying that WC would best be used as a fertilizer for, say, a fully colonized white popcorn substrate? Would you add it before inoculation or after colonization?


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Sitar]
    #8319295 - 04/23/08 03:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i still just don't get this part
if you have so much experience

Quote:


The Oyster LC jar of set 2 showed growth just a few hours after inoculation, but then stalled and never grew any more





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OfflineSitar
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: yasi]
    #8319301 - 04/23/08 03:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Just so everyone is aware, I never ONCE referred to my use of worm castings in this thread as "bulk substrate". That's something you all applied to what I was saying, and I never even suggested such a thing, let alone used those words. Sorry I'm not well known on here yet, but that doesn't mean I am new to mushroom cultivation.

Anyway, Smushroom, your reply was the type I was looking for. That confirms my suspicions about the use of WC in a way that dozens of posts could not elucidate.

You know, I really don't like the attitude that many people have here that if you don't do something EXACTLY like they do, then it's all wrong and you're an idiot. We're ALL growing mushrooms here. We all have varying levels of knowledge on different aspects of this. Me experimenting with alternative substrates isn't an indication of anything other than the initiative to explore new or better options and seek better methods. Not only will this further my understanding of these things, but I intend to share my successes with the rest of the community for everyone's benefit.

If there's something wrong with that, please let me know. 'Cause as far as I knew, discussions of what works and what doesn't was a good thing.

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OfflineSitar
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: anarchOi]
    #8319315 - 04/23/08 03:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Anarchoi, you can either continue to try to bust my balls or you can contribute something useful. Personally, I'd go with the latter. That means the second choice in case you don't understand.

Edited by Sitar (04/23/08 03:55 PM)

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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: Sitar]
    #8319355 - 04/23/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sitar, if you'll reread, i was simply correcting you, and you're the one who started with the attitude

we kinda have this lingo thing here, where we can't understand nub-speak anymore

you have to speak with the basic minimal knowledge of our hobby if you want our help

please explain how you have experience with mushrooms and didn't run and hide from a jar showing growth after a few hours?...


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Offlinecanid
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: anarchOi]
    #8319401 - 04/23/08 03:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

anarch0i: you're not helping much be being hostile and offensive. it isn't relevant whether you think he knows what he's doing or not, this is his thread and he's asking for advice only.

sitar: i would recommend backtracking to the advice above and giving the castings a try as a small volume additive to a simple bulk sub like pasteurized straw or coir. i think you'll appreciate the boost they give best that way.


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OfflineSitar
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: anarchOi]
    #8319413 - 04/23/08 03:51 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Anarchoi: wrong, you came on here with a holier-than-thou approach trying to "correct" a mistake I didn't even make. It's not my fault you assumed I meant bulk substrate when I didn't even use that phrase. It's too bad that clear use of language doesn't even apply anymore these days.

As for the LC jars, what don't you get? It's liquid culture. The mycelium is already there, ready to grow. Do YOU have any experience with LC? I smell a troll...

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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: canid]
    #8319435 - 04/23/08 03:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i just want him to help us help him


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OfflineSitar
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Re: Worm Castings - What's the catch? [Re: anarchOi]
    #8331396 - 04/26/08 05:12 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Well, it looks like the worm castings aren't inhibiting growth as badly as I thought.

3 of the experiment jars with the exotic spores are doing fine now; it just took a little longer than expected for good germination to get started. None of the jars without BRF did anything.

Conclusion: Use a bit smaller ratio of worm castings, and it's best to use it only for established mycelium.

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