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OfflineAmoeba665
strange
Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 275
Loc: a hidden microutopia at t...
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #794962 - 08/04/02 01:32 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

here's one theory:

" Rick Strassman, M.D. sees the Pineal gland
as being a possible source of the brain?s very own
?home-grown? [my term] hallucinogens. His contention is
that these ?home-growns? might be produced under certain
specific mental and/or physical conditions, including: near
death, birth, high fever, prolonged meditation, starvation,
and sensory deprivation. He calls the pineal gland the
?seat of the soul? or the infamous ?third eye? and
postulates that under these circumstances and because of
chemical alterations of melatonin and seratonin caused by
these circumstances it might produce DMT (N,
N-dimethyltryptamine, a very strong hallucinogenic drug) on
its own, and that this chemical may be responsible for
spiritual realities experienced under the aforementioned
conditions.
He continues to theorize about the pineal gland, but
starting with facts. It first becomes visible in the human
fetus at forty nine days after conception, at the same time
the gender becomes distinguishable. Coincidentally,
according to several Buddhist texts, ?forty nine days is how
long it takes the life-force of one who has died to enter
its next incarnation.? These two separate facts together
could be used to infer that ?the life-force of a human
enters the fetus at forty-nine days through the pineal.?
This would also suggest that the force leaves the body at
death in the same way, and entry and exit of the soul or
?life-force? into the pineal gland would be indicated by a
release of DMT. Tripping on ?acid? naturally during birth
and death? An interesting concept, to say the least. "


--------------------
---


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #794977 - 08/04/02 01:57 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

This is indeed a tough question.

Consider this:
When an embryo is conceived, it contains a unique genetic blueprint - something that has never before been seen and something that will never be reapeated naturally. Within that single cell is contained a large portion of who an individual is. Including, eye color, hair color, height, weight, susceptability to certain diseases - even personality to some extent.

I think this is the only definition of life that is not arbitrary. When you say life begins when you gain consciousness, you have to be able to pinpoint the moment of consciousness. When you say life begins when there is a "conductor for the soul", you have to pinpoint that moment. When you say life begins at birth, what about a baby that is "partially" born? Is it "alive" yet? Another idea is that life begins when a baby takes its first breath - but some babies take their first breath minutes after birth, premature babies require breathing aids for weeks after birth.

Biologically, there is very little difference between a fetus that is 1 hour from birth and a baby 1 hour after birth. Biologically there is very little difference between a 3 year old who is just about to form memories and a 3 year old that has just formed memories. Biologically there is very little difference between a fetus that is about to form a "conductor for the soul" and one that has just formed one. And finally there is little difference between a baby that is just about to take its first breath and one that has just taken its first breath.

But there is a HUGE biological difference between a pair of cells about to join and a single unique cell that has just joined to create a human life.



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Offlinemr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: Sclorch]
    #795064 - 08/04/02 05:11 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know where you have heard this before. To be honest, I pulled in out of my ass with about 30 seconds of thought. I dislike this topic even more than I dislike religious topics. But, I did try to answer with some modicum of what the poster wanted.

Ps. I see better, excuse me, WAY better answers than the one I gave.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,174
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: mr freedom]
    #795151 - 08/04/02 07:13 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Human "life" begins when a human is alive. This happens at conception.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Anonymous

Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #795162 - 08/04/02 07:21 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It is interesting how many people do not understand simple biology on a message board that deals with a living thing.

Maybe you should have asked, "When is a mushroom a living mushroom?" Of course novices would probably say when you pick it or some such thing. And we know that answer is wrong.

Cheers,


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OfflineEightball
whore consumer
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/21/01
Posts: 3,013
Last seen: 2 months, 13 days
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #795169 - 08/04/02 07:28 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i'm going with 40 days after conception when the sex of the fetus is created and some other processes start. before that, the zygote is as 'alive' as cancer.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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OfflineEarth_Droid
Stranger
Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #795171 - 08/04/02 07:29 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I downloaded some MP3s of James Arthur speaking. He is the author of Mushrooms and Mankind. He also gives that same information. I have become ever more fascinated with DMT, but I have not gotten a chance to try it yet. What amazes me is the similar descriptions of experience where people have distinctly felt in literally a new dimension and communicated with entities like DMT elves. It is interesting how they describe it as feeling more real than real.


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InvisibleSpiffy
Defender of theGnomes

Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 1,693
Loc: Next to your mom
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #796555 - 08/04/02 09:20 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

21 days after conception. The pleiadians tell us that this is when a spirit takes on human form. They do not condone abortion after this point. I believe that "life" doesn't really begin until a spirit inhabits a body.


--------------------
Namaste: "I honour that place in you where the whole Universe resides. And when I am in that place in me and you are in that place in you,
there is only one of us."


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Anonymous

Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #796558 - 08/04/02 09:21 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It is interesting how many people do not understand simple biology on a message board that deals with a living thing.

Very interesting. The only logical conclusion that I keep coming back to is that human life begins at conception (a flat basketball is a basketball, even though not fully formed). It is the only conclusion that can be backed up with verifiable evidence and the science of biology. Anything other than that is pretty much arbitrary (beginning of third timester), dependant on too many variables (when a fetus can survive outside the womb), subject to interpretation (does a pineal gland make a human?) or disregards the necessary biological complexities that are requisite for a human life (the birth of a star).

What troubles me is that so many people will ignore the true nature of something because they find it inconvenient and at odds with their desires or comfortable notions. Sometimes reason unveils truths which many of us would rather not acknowledge. This is such an issue.


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,462
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #796900 - 08/05/02 03:35 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

if i am not mistaken, jewish law states that the fetus becomes a human when it is quickened in the womb (i.e. when the mother can say "i felt it move!")
(ummm, speaking here as a protestant christian (well...) with jewish friends, not as one with rabbincal authority here ...)
shalom
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Edited by gnrm23 (08/05/02 03:39 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #796932 - 08/05/02 04:41 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

What troubles me is that so many people will ignore the true nature of something because they find it inconvenient and at odds with their desires or comfortable notions. Sometimes reason unveils truths which many of us would rather not acknowledge. This is such an issue.

One of the best ways to blind oneself to the truth is to have a vested interest in the outcome.

The reason I used the basketball analogy is because it destroys the misconception that just because a human cannot function as a human it is not human or a person. Many try to argue that a human life begins at the moment of conception but personhood begins later. While there is an analytical distinction that can be made between personhood and non-personhood the distinction has no bearing on the validity of the claim that a fetus is not a person because it cannot function as one.

The terms, fetus, zygote, or whatever are stages of development. A deer fetus is a deer, not something else that becomes a deer. It is a matter of simple biology.

Good thread by the way. I enjoyed reading all the answers.

Cheers,


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught

Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #796991 - 08/05/02 05:57 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

But there is a HUGE biological difference between a pair of cells about to join and a single unique cell that has just joined to create a human life.

AND

The terms, fetus, zygote, or whatever are stages of development. A deer fetus is a deer, not something else that becomes a deer.


Two very good points that prove a human first comes into existence the moment a sperm and an egg combine...at least in my mind anyways. Does anyone have a logical rebuttle to either of these two that is based off of factual evidence? I'd be interrested in hearing something like that


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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OfflineEightball
whore consumer
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/21/01
Posts: 3,013
Last seen: 2 months, 13 days
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #796999 - 08/05/02 06:08 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

is a basketball a basketball when its liquid rubber? NO. if you're gonna make analogies, at least be reasonable.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: ]
    #797015 - 08/05/02 06:27 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The only logical conclusion that I keep coming back to is that human life begins at conception...

Has anyone here stopped to ponder if the question itself really makes sense? On the surface it certainly does, but let's look a little deeper.

For the moment let's accept evolving's conclusion. Does life begin when:

the sperm touches the ova?
the sperm penetrates the ova's membrane?
the sperm enters the nucleus
when a zygote is formed
when the zygote cleaves into a blastula

at what nano-second in what process?

I see life as a continuum with no set starting point. I can say that human life starts when a man and a woman look at each other in the certain way and be just as correct as any other scenario here.

Dig up a plant and tell me where the plant's roots end and the earth begins. It is impossible as it is a continuum.

Where does your hand end and your arm begin?

The question is a legalese one that has no answer. It is based on the idea of division brought about by language and western thought. I contend that the asking of such a question, is itself, meaningless.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRevelation


Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,072
Loc: heart cave
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: Swami]
    #797173 - 08/05/02 08:13 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yes...well said. That is what I believe too. Like apples on an apple tree.


--------------------


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: Swami]
    #797233 - 08/05/02 08:44 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

*clap, clap, clap*

Well put dude. I totally agree...


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: Swami]
    #797271 - 08/05/02 09:04 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"Dig up a plant and tell me where the plant's roots end and the earth begins. It is impossible as it is a continuum"

Don't be silly, have you ever weeded a garden? It is perfectly simple to tell where the roots of a plant end.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: Swami]
    #797538 - 08/05/02 11:00 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The question is a legalese one that has no answer. It is based on the idea of division brought about by language and western thought. I contend that the asking of such a question, is itself, meaningless.

Right on. Now if we were talking about when should the human life be recognized to begin, in order to determine when constitutional rights should be granted, that would be another conversation. But the deeper, existential question "when does life begin" appears to be a question asked in the wrong way.



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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflineDasKomet
D 322
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 85
Loc: US
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: Swami]
    #798234 - 08/05/02 05:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I agree.
Must account for the space that allows for the ball.
Peace.


--------------------
The Woven World is all I see.
Put cloves in your weed and tell them its for the LSD.
.oO0 Listen to White Zombie 0Oo.


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Anonymous

Re: When Does Human Life Begin? [Re: Swami]
    #798597 - 08/05/02 08:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Has anyone here stopped to ponder if the question itself really makes sense? On the surface it certainly does, but let's look a little deeper.

Yes, I have examined this issue very thoroughly.

Does life begin when:

the sperm touches the ova?


Obviously not.

the sperm penetrates the ova's membrane?

Again, obviously not because the fertilization process is not complete.

the sperm enters the nucleus

Obviously not, same reason.

when a zygote is formed

When it is fully formed, yes.

when the zygote cleaves into a blastula

Before that.

at what nano-second in what process?

Not only is the demarcation brought into the realm of a nanosecond, it could be divided into a picosecond. When the DNA is conjoined together a new individual life is formed. Simple biology. It is the same process as downloading a file. At the exact instant that the file is fully downloaded it is, therefore, fully downloaded.

I see life as a continuum with no set starting point. I can say that human life starts when a man and a woman look at each other in the certain way and be just as correct as any other scenario here.

You are conflating the difference between poetical truth and descriptive truth. I can say with others that a human life begins when a star is formed and grok the oneness with the best of them. However, science and biology do not procede in that manner.

Dig up a plant and tell me where the plant's roots end and the earth begins. It is impossible as it is a continuum.

Where does your hand end and your arm begin?


What? Fuzzy logic? Kosko's artful book is at best fuzzy thinking. I read it and was amazed at how far off he is.

The question is a legalese one that has no answer. It is based on the idea of division brought about by language and western thought. I contend that the asking of such a question, is itself, meaningless.

It certainly has a definitive answer and I gave it. In other places in other threads you have defended your position by using logic. If logic is bereft of meaning then all things are meaningless, and, they are not. Your post seems highly inconsistent with your other answers. Please explain.

Cheers,





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