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 Gumby
Fishnologist
 
Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 25,805
Loc: BRICK CITY, NIGGA! 
Last seen: 20 hours, 17 minutes
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 Re: Drug Legality Poll  [Re: Diploid]
#7937425 - 01/26/08 11:10 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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I see where you are coming from... But when was the last time you heard of someone sucking dick for a cheeseburger?
Out of curiosity, does data exist for alcoholism rates during/after prohibition. How about underage abuse? I'd be interested in seeing the results. Not trying to prove anything here, just want to know if the data exists.
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 KrishnaDreamer
I bleed nicotine...
Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 2,641
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Gumby]
#7937456 - 01/26/08 11:15 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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If cheeseburgers were illegal you'd bet your ass someone would suck a dick for a cheeseburger. or they would turn to other drugs (PIZZA)
alcoholism - look at al capone, murder, bootlegging, bathtub gin.
point is if someone wants to use drugs they will use them regardless. all your doing is restricting freedom.
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Live Free or Die!
You don't have to give up to let go...
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squidhead
senior citizen stoner
Registered: 12/23/03
Posts: 53
Loc: left right here
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Gumby]
#7937665 - 01/26/08 11:47 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Legalize every drug & let anyone 21 yrs old or more purchase whatever they like at either drug stores [duh] or liquor stores. Personally, I've been a non-drinker for 8 yrs now after being a drunken bastid for 25+ yrs.
Just think how legalizing everything would ruin gang revenue, free-up prison space for rapists, child molesters, murderers, etc & the govt could tax the hell out of the drugs...making lotsa $$$ for helping homeless families & hungry children.
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Acharne
That guy
Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 57
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: squidhead]
#7938054 - 01/27/08 12:53 AM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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What I don't understand is why people are arguing at all for partial legalization. Essentially, this is the system we're all living with and hating right now. People whose drug of choice is alcohol are free to buy, use, and enjoy their substance any time after their 21st birthday, while the rest of us are arrested merely for possessing our drug(s).
The real problem with this whole system is that people still want the illegal drugs. I remember seeing a speech from a member of Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP) a while ago, and one of his statements really stuck with me. "People ask me sometimes what drugs should be made legal. I tell them that whatever drugs you want people selling on the streets should be illegal, and the rest should be legal." Not an exact quote, of course, but I believe it captured the spirit.
So why should we be forced to go through illegal, and possibly dangerous, channels to get our drugs? Why not produce them legally, regulate, label, and tax them?
I really don't understand why the norm for the entire fucking world right now is prohibition.
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* That Guy *
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,492
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Gumby]
#7938635 - 01/27/08 02:32 AM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gumby said:
I live in a city plagued by crack and heroin addicts, I see their way of life every time I leave my building. I've seen a crack dealing pimp beating the shit out of his crack addicted prostitute. Do you think the people who conduct these studies have every placed themselves in the environments where addiction hits hardest?
I have seen people ravaged by drugs and other self-destructive behavior. My heart breaks for them. To treat these people with criminal charges is quite unhelpful.
Quote:
Sure studies have been conducted, probably by economists and scientists that live a much better life than those "trapped" in an inner-city environment that feeds drug addiction easily.
^^^ This is a jaded, unfair assumption. There are people on both sides of this issue who have seen the ugliest of the ugly. The only difference between them is their opinion on the best way to respond to drug addiction. Some say criminal charges, public shame, imprisonment is a suitable response. Others believe support, compassion, education and personal responsibility are more helpful approaches to people who are in trouble.
Everyone comes to their own conclusion about how to respond to bad drug-related behavior. In my mind, the response of prohibition stems from feelings of contempt, hatred, and fear. I just can't support a public policy that meets addiction with punishment, particularly when it sweeps everyone who uses drugs responsibly down with them into prison.
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Sell Your Soul
What you looking at?
Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 35,761
Loc: Over there
Last seen: 5 hours, 44 minutes
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Good Evening, Whiskey.
Hope all is well with you.
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KrishnaDreamer
I bleed nicotine...
Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 2,641
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theres studies that treat drug addictions with psychedelics, haha, legalize it all and treat the problems with current schedule 1 drugs.
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Live Free or Die!
You don't have to give up to let go...
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,492
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Gumby]
#7938836 - 01/27/08 03:30 AM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gumby said:
Diploid: please don't be defensive or judgmental on this, this is an honest conversation and I'm willing to be informed where I am wrong. I just hope that you can see this though the eyes of someone who lives at the heart of a failed War On Drugs. Running into people who are complete slaves to a drug changes your aspect on life. It's almost as if these addicts are not even people anymore, just a human shell of a body that is fueled by addiction. I'd hate to see more Americans following that same path. It's really horrible.
It's a tragedy no matter how you look at it. It's still a tragedy once you throw it in jail, stigmatize it with a criminal record, and consider it a closed case.
Gumby I can see your opinions on this issue stem from genuine compassion for people. At the heart of it all, we're all the same in that none of us wants to see others suffer.
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Cubie
Moderator
Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 8,840
Loc: Down the rabbit hole...
Last seen: 11 months, 21 days
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Imagian potatoes being illegal. And getting thrown in jail for eating them.
Its the same thing
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belligerent
Degenerate stoner
Registered: 10/31/06
Posts: 526
Loc: Hicksville, CA
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Gumby]
#7939217 - 01/27/08 08:47 AM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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I haven't studied the economics of drug legalization, but wouldn't the price of drugs drop significantly if they were made legal?
It seems to me that a lot of the drug-related crime would disappear instantly just because there isn't enough money to be made. When was the last time you heard of anyone selling their own homemade liquor? It doesn't happen because it's cheaper to buy it at the store than to make your own.
If drugs were legal, they would be mass-produced cheaply by big companies, not by the tweaker dude buying boxes of Sudafed at Wal Mart. Seriously, how much does it cost to grow weed? The risk of being arrested is the reason people are willing to pay outrageous prices to dealers instead of just growing their own.
Not only would the cost drop, but the drugs would be much more standardized and consistent than they are now. I'd guess that we'd see less deaths due to surprisingly potent batches of heroin.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,759
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Quote:
I haven't studied the economics of drug legalization, but wouldn't the price of drugs drop significantly if they were made legal?
Yes, so long as a product isn't monopolized.
Quote:
It seems to me that a lot of the drug-related crime would disappear instantly just because there isn't enough money to be made.
Again, yes. Almost all "drug"-related crime is due to two factors. 1: the trade of the product (the enormous profits to be made from it since it is illegal), not the product itself. 2: the high price as a result of prohibition that leads users/addicts to commit real crimes to finance their habit. Only a very marginal amount of real crime is attributable to the effects of the substance itself. Further, alcohol is responsible for more such violence & violation of the rights & freedoms of others than probably all illegal drugs combined.
The solution is quite simple. A rational society understands that you can't stop people from killing themselves if they so choose, but what you can do is make it so that those who decide to do so have the least negative impact on the lives & freedoms of others in the process. Prohibition does the exact opposite.
P.S. Anyone who doesn't think that, if I have to wake up early without getting sufficient sleep, or if I have to stay up for extended periods of time, that I shouldn't have the freedom to orally take amphetamines on occasion, causing absolutely no harm to anyone else doing so, then... FUCK YOU!
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"I did not know then how much was ended. When I look back now from this high hill of my old age, I can still see the butchered women and children lying heaped and scattered all along the crooked gulch as plain as when I saw them with eyes still young. And I can see that something else died there in the bloody mud, and was buried in the blizzard. A people's dream died there. It was a beautiful dream.
And I, to whom so great a vision was given in my youth; you see me now a pitiful old man who has done nothing, for the nation's hoop is broken and scattered. There is no center any longer, and the sacred tree is dead."
- Oglala Lakota medicine man Black Elk, reflecting on the 1890 Wounded Knee massacre
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,759
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Gumby]
#7947307 - 01/28/08 09:59 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I've seen a crack dealing pimp beating the shit out of his crack addicted prostitute.
Great citation, really. Let's look at how this could play out in an alternative society based on freedom & individual liberty.
1st: the sale of cocaine would be regulated & taxed. Therefore, unsavory characters (which admittedly dominate the trade of "hard" drugs when they're illegal) wouldn't be involved in its sale.
2nd: Prostitution would likewise be legal & regulated so that the women (& men) who choose to engage in it have laws & regulations to protect them, & also would have a legal avenue to report any abuse that does occur, & those who engage in abuse of prostitutes would be severely penalized because they committed a real crime (violated the rights of another).
3rd: Even if she still was crack-addicted & in an abusive situation, she could go to a medical facility to safely & effectively seek treatment for her disease (because addiction is a disease, not a crime).
It's ironic that you (or anyone, for that matter) would bring up such an example to argue that prohibition must be maintained. If those who have such a knee-jerk reaction to that event, which admittedly is a horrible situation, would take a moment to understand & access the situation fully & rationally, then they would arrive at a very radical conclusion, but one that is true nonetheless: Freedom & individual liberty work, you just have to be daring enough to have enough faith to implement them fully.
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opensaysme
Be Here Now
Registered: 07/15/07
Posts: 1,649
Loc: NJ-NY area
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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It's good to see there are still some intelligent minds at work on the shroomery. This thread is a prime example.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,202
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Therefore, unsavory characters (which admittedly dominate the trade of "hard" drugs when they're illegal) wouldn't be involved in its sale.
Indeed! There is research showing that drug cartels contribute to busybody politicians' election campaigns who are in favor of expanding the War on Drugs. So too for Muslim terrorists who make huge profits from the illicit sale of opium poppy. Duh! Prohibition makes for enormous profits, just like it did during alcohol prohibition and the resulting rise of the mafia.
If I were a Colombian drug kingpin or Muslim terrorist, my first priority would be to covertly support this type of short-sighted politician, beginning with George Bush.
And I'd be grateful to the short-sighted Shroomerites who agree with them. 
Edit: yes, it's spelled ColOmbian.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Robo Shaman
∂xм sρıяıτ мεđıμм
Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 11,863
Loc: ∫∫∫ ɗzɗyɗx
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Diploid]
#7947991 - 01/28/08 11:44 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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*Colombian 
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Robo Shaman
∂xм sρıяıτ мεđıμм
Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 11,863
Loc: ∫∫∫ ɗzɗyɗx
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Diploid]
#7948029 - 01/28/08 11:52 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Therefore, unsavory characters (which admittedly dominate the trade of "hard" drugs when they're illegal) wouldn't be involved in its sale.
That's not necessarily true,though. A drug lord will not drop out of the game just because drugs get legalized. I can guarantee you that they would just drop prices and continue smuggling in order to compete with government prices and provide the populous with cheaper drugs. Its a huge industry and there is still money to be made regardless of whether or not prohibition comes to a halt. While ending prohibition may cut down on some of the criminal element of the drug game, it will still be there; just not as prevalent as it once was. Don't expect drug lords to just give up and say 'oh well drugs are legal now, might as well just get into real estate instead now'.
Edited by Ombient (01/28/08 11:54 PM)
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Chemy
Jesus is Lord
Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 6,276
Loc: A Church
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Drug Legality Poll *DELETED* [Re: Robo Shaman]
#7948088 - 01/29/08 12:02 AM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by ChemyReason for deletion: If you are sure you want to do this, click the button below. Yes, I want to delete this post.
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Alcoholics Anonymous
Narcotics Anonymous
Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.
God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.
Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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But they WILL lose money. How many people still sell bootlegged alcohol to the masses? not many.
In order to figure that out, does anyone know the statistics of people who deal weed in Amsterdam?
To the people who were comparing making drugs illegal to making food illegal... thats kind of stretching it.
Q. I don't know anything about tobacco but how much safer is it to grow/ chew your own tobacco without any additives than it is to smoke/chew brands with tons of added crap? Or does it really matteR?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,202
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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how much safer is it to grow/ chew your own tobacco without any additives
The tobacco industry is poorly regulated, again because of short-sighted asshole politicians more interested in the lobby money than in the people they represent, George Bush among them.
A properly regulated tobacco industry (actually a properly regulated nicotine recreational drug industry) would be required to list the ingredients, just like the food industry is required to list its ingredients.
A properly regulated recreational drug industry would likewise be required to list the ingredients in their products. When you buy regulated recreational opiates, you would get what you paid for.
The way it works now is you get some opiates, some carcinogenic solvents, some plant matter, a bit of profit-making inert filler, and some who-the-fuck-knows, precisely because it's illegal and unregulated.
Only people who cannot think think drugs should be illegal.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,759
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Quote:
A drug lord will not drop out of the game just because drugs get legalized.
No, he will do so because economics dictates it.
Quote:
I can guarantee you that they would just drop prices...
No, they wouldn't. The margins would be too small to justify the risks if the product is able to be mass produced & sold legally. For example, how many illicit alcohol dealers do you know?
Do you really think that if the resale value on a gram of cocaine were $10 (to undercut the official price with taxation of, say, about $15) instead of the $60-100 that it presently is, that I would be smuggled out of Colombia & into the U.S.? It's something like $5000, probably closer to $10,000 to get a kilo of blow into the U.S. presently, I believe, depending on the size of the shipment. Do the math. It's not a wise investment, especially considering you could lose your life and/or your freedom being involved with it even if it had small profit margins, which for this it doesn't even have that, though. They'd be better off in real estate.
Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/29/08 12:53 AM)
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