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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Belief without evidence is mental illness
    #7800014 - 12/26/07 02:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It is all the same sickness and yet the individual who holds such a view fails to see it.

Christian: Islam is stupid. There is no evidence that Mohamed was God's prophet or that Allah exists.

Muslim: Christianity is stupid. There is no evidence that Jesus was God's son or that Yahweh exists.

UFO aficionado: Please don't lump me in with those who believe in ghosts, although you can group me with Crop Circle jerks, 2012 and free energy device dreamers.

Ghost buff: Please don't lump me in with those wacky UFO nut jobs. That is stupid to believe we are being visited from another galaxy. However, it is obvious that certain places are haunted and that souls sometimes remain near where they died.

On and on it goes. My unsupported belief is righteous while your unsupported belief is wacky.


Future respondent: Jeez, OG are you going to be all egotistical and tell us you hold no unsupported beliefs?

OG: Perhaps, I do. Point it/them out and I will examine it/them critically and dispassionately.


If it is not mental illness to merely hold such a belief (say due to childhood brainwashing), it certainly IS mental illness to CONTINUE TO HOLD such a belief in the face of contravening evidence or exposed inconsistencies in such a belief.


--------------------

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (12/26/07 02:45 AM)

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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800023 - 12/26/07 02:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

OG FOR PRESIDENT!!!


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800050 - 12/26/07 02:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think you're overgeneralizing things.
I agree that perhaps in most cases it CAN lead to mental illness. Belief itself is just another way of handling life's confusing moments and also replacing the deep unknown with SOMETHING.
We as humans feel the need to have it all explained, and this is a SURVIVAL trait, and if used properly and with common sense can even have positive effects. Anything that is being used with a degree of responsibility can lead to good outcomes.
Let's imagine the cavemen + lighting & fire scenery.
Perhaps the lighting killed one of his family members and he feels sad. But also it was the fire produced by it which helped him create heat for the rest of his family.
His mind has no notion about how lightings happen, but this doesn't mean that his mind doesn't wonder and feel the need to find some kind of explanation. So here comes god. God must have a human figure and mighty attributes.
The human figure is because being human is all that the caveman knows and can relate to.
The mighty powers that come along with god are all those beyond the understanding events.
He needs to get along with his life and try to make some sense of what's happening to him, and he needs to rid the pain caused by the loss of his family member. So he thinks... god must have done it... well, he took my relative away from me, but he gave me the opportunity to make fire and help myself and my family feel warm in the very cold days.
If we look deeper, we see one of the basic life principles: yin and yang. Balance. Duality. :yinyang:
It's also a sign of intelligence. Trying to understand and to alleviate pain IS a definite sign of intelligence.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800149 - 12/26/07 05:49 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If it is not mental illness to merely hold such a belief (say due to childhood brainwashing), it certainly IS mental illness to CONTINUE TO HOLD such a belief in the face of contravening evidence or exposed inconsistencies in such a belief.




Mental illness?

Come on Org.

What you describe could be a lot of things. Stupidity... blind faith... egotism... stubbornness... pride... etc ("Ignorance" is the word I'd use.). It is not mental illness when a human believes in something for no good reason.

It is a sociological issue, not a psychological illness.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Rose]
    #7800152 - 12/26/07 05:52 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yup, but it has all the chances into becoming mental illness.
Let's not forget that the sleep of reason produces monsters.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Rose]
    #7800159 - 12/26/07 06:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

it certainly IS mental illness to CONTINUE TO HOLD such a belief in the face of contravening evidence




mental illness
n. Any of various conditions characterized by impairment of an individual's normal cognitive functioning, and caused by social, psychological, biochemical, genetic, or other factors


Clinging to a belief when facts show it to be in error is certainly AN IMPAIRMENT OF COGNITIVE FUNCTIONING.


--------------------

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800179 - 12/26/07 06:17 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, and if social gullibility weren't HUMAN NATURE... I'd agree with your mental illness thesis.

So, fact man, what is your next move going to be?

Are you going to look at the evidence, or are you going to simply press on with your theory that people who don't look at evidence are socially ill?

Humans are socially gullible. Humans fall for religious scams all thew time. Lesser animals would never be so stupid.

p.s. The whole religion is a mental illness shtick is Bill Maher's. You may owe him royalties.

p.p.s. Oh, and HEY! Pulling out the definition... that's MY trademarked move! You owe me a little cash for that one. Does $3 each time you use one of my tricks sound about right?


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (12/26/07 06:25 AM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Rose]
    #7800181 - 12/26/07 06:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

:what:

Is this post for real? :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7800185 - 12/26/07 06:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Is this post for real?



What did I just say about gullibility? :tongue:

Come on MT, you gotta' entertain the Org once in a while.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Rose]
    #7800187 - 12/26/07 06:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'll have to open a thread about the proper use of emoticons :yesnod:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7800190 - 12/26/07 06:28 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Now THAT would be a philosophical discussion.

:thumbup:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflinePurple Mushroom
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Rose]
    #7800207 - 12/26/07 06:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The best way is to be agnostic to metaphysical ideas, then again
no one knows the truth about this ideas as science cannot interpret them.

If it crosses within the borders of physics, then there is going to be arguments.


--------------------
“All that we are is the result of what we have thought. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him” ~ buddah

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Purple Mushroom]
    #7800424 - 12/26/07 09:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Science cannot interpret anything. It only describes. The interpretation is that what follows outside of science and leads to new questions, which can be again scientifically formulated to get a description of the results, which has to be interpreted again and so on :smile:
Science is only one (quite reliable and objective) method of many, to describe reality. In fact, it's only a part of our total reality and there are fields existing, lying outside of its range, at least for us yet. It may be that forever, but eventually everything will be explainable through science even, which doesn't exclude he 'influence' and 'realm' of 'spirituality' - whatever, we begin to look into that by exploring our mind and its 'physical consciousness' in relation to psychology, sociology, biology and many more disciplines.
It's all about the description of dependencies and interdependencies.

The interpretation is quite in another book.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (12/26/07 09:28 AM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800465 - 12/26/07 09:52 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Point it/them out and I will examine it/them critically and dispassionately.




Alright, I just pointed out an unsupported belief.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800477 - 12/26/07 09:57 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think to some degree we all hold beliefs without solid evidence. Much of it goes unnoticed because it's to close (obvious) to be seen. All humans think unskillfully (a better term IMO), some much more than others.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleClean
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800535 - 12/26/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

-American / so-called "citizen" of any "nation" or "state" on this planet:

"My "freedom" is granted by some pieces of paper. These pieces of paper also dictate the rules of government. Government will always operate according to the rules on those pieces of paper, which are designed to ensure fairness for all.
The people that comprise the government are chosen regionally by the "citizens", to act in the best interest of those "citizens" whom they "represent". These representatives then make further "laws" that I am obligated to follow because I am a "citizen" of this "state" and "nation".

These are some of the beliefs instilled by the "educational" system, yet there is zero evidence to prove any of it.
Schools are breeding grounds of this disease. So-called "educators" are infecting our children.
Politics is a playground for the terminally ill.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800627 - 12/26/07 11:16 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

We all have our own forms of evidence. We all generalize based on our own observations. The real mental illness lies in thinking that your beliefs are in any way objective.

Quote:

Whenever you stop and reflect, "Maybe I just think or act that way because I'm a Cosmic Schmuck," you become -- for a moment -- a bit less of a Cosmic Schmuck.

The more often you have such suspicions, the less of a Cosmic Schmuck you will become. Continue relentlessly and you will make yourself ineligible for political office. Tsarists will call you a flipflopper.

On the other hoof, if you NEVER suspect that you might think or act like a Cosmic Schmuck, you will remain a Cosmic Schmuck forever. Continue on that path and you will accumulate so much power that nobody will dare tell you how enormous a Cosmic Schmuck you have become. You might even end your days in the Oval Office.

Or that's what I suspect.



-- Robert Anton Wilson


--------------------

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OfflinePurple Mushroom
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7801201 - 12/26/07 03:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Science cannot interpret anything. It only describes. The interpretation is that what follows outside of science and leads to new questions, which can be again scientifically formulated to get a description of the results, which has to be interpreted again and so on :smile:
Science is only one (quite reliable and objective) method of many, to describe reality. In fact, it's only a part of our total reality and there are fields existing, lying outside of its range, at least for us yet. It may be that forever, but eventually everything will be explainable through science even, which doesn't exclude he 'influence' and 'realm' of 'spirituality' - whatever, we begin to look into that by exploring our mind and its 'physical consciousness' in relation to psychology, sociology, biology and many more disciplines.
It's all about the description of dependencies and interdependencies.

The interpretation is quite in another book.




Your quite right, as there is the theory of everything, but it is
still just theory.

Not only this but science still cannot figure out
the mystery of the consciousness nor where it stems from (as far as ive last known).


--------------------
“All that we are is the result of what we have thought. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him” ~ buddah

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OfflineBoots
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Purple Mushroom]
    #7801225 - 12/26/07 03:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

First, an accepted definition of 'mental illness' must be established. According to textbook definitions, I don't believe that holding an unsupportted belief should be classified as a mental illness.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7801253 - 12/26/07 03:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Actually theres a bunch of different specific conditions (symptom based) that "define" mental illness.

Problem is, nobody at all can define what mentally healthy is.

How can you define insanity when you dont know what sanity is?

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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Purple Mushroom]
    #7801586 - 12/26/07 06:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Buddy, Your Ego along with mine are "just a theory". Does that make them any less meaningfull? 3, 4, 5, and 6 are just a theory but you can still have 5 of something. Consciousness for all we know could in fact be our brain betraying us into believing that we are in 'control' of our actions. More simply put: our physical form exists in more than just a 3D world; we are enlongated beings snaking through higher dimensions. Our grasp on reality could be no more than a polaroid snapshot. Still not knowing that for sure I can still find truth and meaning in my life.

When people say 'just a theory' it's as if they're saying that it's just a bullshit idea. That's not what theory is though it's so much more than just an idea.

--

Maybe mass mental illness isn't the right phrase, try 'primal thinking'.


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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OfflinePurple Mushroom
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: daytripper23]
    #7802248 - 12/26/07 10:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, yes more than idea, i should have used hypothetical theory as it is.

But the theory of everything still has yet to be proven accurate.

As with the theory of everything has other theories to prove its
validation, like string theory, m-theory, and so on.

It's logical but it doesn't mean its right (well of course), so
i concede as to you pointing that out.

Of course there is theory for consciousness, but they have yet to figure a theory as to why it came to be or where it comes from and such or atleast a proven theory.

As for belief without evidence is mental illness, isn't this contradictory or paradoxical?

This is exaggerated as to if someone believes reality is a way of
expressing thoughts, then who is to say the above?

As if there is no evidence to make that belief untrue then
there is no way to say its wrong as truth unless otherwise
it has been solved objectively.

Simply put: if the belief is subjective and there is no evidence or knowing of the objective side that the belief is about, then in turn there is no evidence to prove its wrong.

Wow this is one hell of a topic (i guess im mentally ill pffft lol), How do we know that mental illness is what it really says it is?

The evidence would have to be a thought of illness or what is consider d ill but that would mean its a belief and the evidence to go along with would be subjective correct? And to that we do not know the true nature(objective)of reality is then this concludes we are all mentally ill no? And this is then a paradox?

I think i may have a got a bit ahead of myself.



--------------------
“All that we are is the result of what we have thought. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him” ~ buddah

Edited by Purple Mushroom (12/26/07 10:49 PM)

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7803573 - 12/27/07 11:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I have no evidence that I love my girlfriend.

However when she is not near I experience a certain longing, and I find myself thinking about her more often that I do most people.

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness? Or is it simply a good way to describe a subjective experience that is made real by the spiritual aspect of my self?

Similarly, perhaps there is no evidence to suggest that Jesus was the messiah. However, my Uncle describes a specific moment when Jesus came into his heart, and he was filled with an overwhleming experience of deep unity with all aspects of the Universe. Before this happenned he was an alchoholic and a womanizer with multiple illegitamte children who he didn't talk to. Today he is clean and sober, bright and loving with a grin permanently on his face, and is actively a father and grandfather to all his progeny. I would say that he is walking evidence of what he claims to be true, that Jesus is his savior. To him, the only way he was able to change and become who he is now was by knowing Jesus. He is not mentally ill. I'd say he is in pretty good shape.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7803595 - 12/27/07 11:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness?



Love is the greatest and most beautiful form of mental illness known to man.


--------------------

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Silversoul]
    #7803608 - 12/27/07 11:31 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness?



Love is the greatest and most beautiful form of mental illness known to man.




But are you agreeing with me that love exists?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7803616 - 12/27/07 11:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You have drawn subjective conclusions as to what evidence is.

For example I would describe your longing for your girlfriend (from your description) as attachment and neediness rather than real love (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this). You saying it's a spiritual aspect of yourself would not jibe with my definition of spiritual.
See how this goes?

IMO we're all a little tilted (we all have splinters in the windmills of our minds -Carol Burnett). So that isn't even worth debate for me. But your Uncle has found a belief that works for him and that's what counts IMO. As long as he interferes with no one else then all is well.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7803683 - 12/27/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness?



Love is the greatest and most beautiful form of mental illness known to man.




But are you agreeing with me that love exists?



Yes


--------------------

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Icelander]
    #7804031 - 12/27/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You have drawn subjective conclusions as to what evidence is.




I have drawn the conclusion that evidence in itself can be subjective rather than objective in nature, because ORG's original post seemed to rest fundamentally on the notion that a lack of objective evidence of any sort of true cosmic power of Jesus or Mohammed thereby negates the validity of any subjective spiritual experience that Christians or Muslims claim to have had. Could you be more specific with your criticism?

Quote:

For example I would describe your longing for your girlfriend (from your description) as attachment and neediness rather than real love (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this). You saying it's a spiritual aspect of yourself would not jibe with my definition of spiritual.
See how this goes?




Well, my description was hypothetical, so there is no need to argue about what "love" is. That wasn't my point. I was using love as an example because most people believe it exists, although there is no evidence that it does. However you, personally, care to define love is up to you, but when it comes to producing evidence that your "love" exists and is more relevant than my "love," well than you are just as helpless as I am. That was the point of my argument.

The crux of my argument is that if it is a sign of mental illness to believe in Jesus or Mohammed than it is equally a sign of mental illness to believe in love or hate or joy or even hunger...or any internal experience that affects the intellectual mind or an individual's motivations.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7804429 - 12/27/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

We are not is disagreement here. I also believe all truth/belief is subjective.

By OCs definition we are all crazy.

I guess I didn't quite get what you were driving at.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Silversoul]
    #7804794 - 12/27/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness?



Love is the greatest and most beautiful form of mental illness known to man.




No one murders another for like, only for love.


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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Icelander]
    #7804807 - 12/27/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

By OCs definition we are all crazy.





Seems you are making progress, Grasshopper.


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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7806869 - 12/28/07 09:21 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness?



Love is the greatest and most beautiful form of mental illness known to man.




No one murders another for like, only for love.




By your definition of love maybe.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Icelander]
    #7807035 - 12/28/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness?



Love is the greatest and most beautiful form of mental illness known to man.




No one murders another for like, only for love.




By your definition of love maybe.



Yes, many people confuse love with attachment or dependency. There we are back at the first question.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7807042 - 12/28/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Indeed so. Love in most humans understanding (and actions) goes little further than the statement "I love my ice cream". If they actually looked deeply into their motives I believe it would be the same when they say, "I love my children" or "I love my girlfriend" or "I love God"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Icelander]
    #7807090 - 12/28/07 10:48 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Indeed. It's relatively simple in theory but extremly difficullt to practice.
To never be able of letting go would be similar to overeating with one's favourite ice-cream.
It will become stale, then will melt away and after that one even gets tummyache. Ignorant people even then will smash their brothers face if he will get the next portion of ice-cream.
Or beat their wives and children about that, what they themselvesn didn't/don't/won't get...

:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (12/28/07 10:54 AM)

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Icelander]
    #7807372 - 12/28/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

By your definition of love maybe.




Puh-lease! It is not MY DEFINITION, but that of the perpetrator of the crime of passion. "I loved her too much to see her with another!"

You may flatly state, "Well THAT certainly isn't love," but if you do then you are saying your viewpoint is the correct one and theirs is in error.

And isn't this personal certainty the very thing you constantly rail against on these boards?


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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7807385 - 12/28/07 01:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yes


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7809523 - 12/29/07 01:39 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If it would be the same 'love' it wouldn't destruct each other, as those who know about love know that attachment kills love.

Can you really say that someone who beats his wife or children does really love them ? That's not in my book.
In other words, can somebody love anything or anybody, without loving himself first ?
[Maybe that's worth another thread, but we had that topic already as far as I remember]
But is that 'tainted' love proof of the inexistence of love ? Au contraire.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (12/29/07 01:45 AM)

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7810077 - 12/29/07 09:34 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Can you really say that someone who beats his wife or children does really love them ?




One last time (hopefully) for those HARD OF READING, I make no claims as to what love is or is not. Abusers and murderers frequently say they love(d) their spouse. Perhaps they do much of the time unless they are drunk or in a rage, I do not know.

If you have a spat or an argument with your girlfriend does that mean that you don't love her? In other words, is ANYONE 100% loving 100% of the time? Me no think so. Does that mean that no one loves another?

You tell me.


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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7810267 - 12/29/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

So one can switch love on and off.
Does a believe in something that sometimes exists also is mental illness ?
Maybe simply only if it's believed in a situation where it is absent.
So it would be mental ill to say he beats his wife out of love.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7810310 - 12/29/07 11:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

So it would be mental ill to say he beats his wife out of love.




The more exact question was: can someone who beat their wife, love her?
I think that love can be felt even by people who suffer of severe psychosis. Because it is psychosis that makes one behave like that.
Firmly stating that it's impossible for such an individual to develop feelings of love is totally unfounded and biased.
I see this behavior more like an unhealthy mental construct which can lead one to to stop using their reason and understanding and let abandon themselves to fear and despair.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7810330 - 12/29/07 11:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

So it would be mental ill to say he beats his wife out of love.




The more exact question was: can someone who beat their wife, love her?



Maybe not exactly in this moment :shrug:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7810584 - 12/29/07 01:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Can spanking be considered love? :dominatrix:


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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7810586 - 12/29/07 01:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Of course :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7810595 - 12/29/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Somehow I knew you would understand. :yesnod:


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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7810783 - 12/29/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

:puke:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Rose]
    #7810840 - 12/29/07 03:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Are you implying that spankings have nothing to do with love? :strokebeard:

Anyways, good to see you're using emoticons :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7810867 - 12/29/07 03:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

to OC: Maybe people who continue to uphold unsupported beliefs do so to keep filled a void in that persons life, a void that imo everyone has, that helps them to function day by day.

Perhaps similar to the way you are constantly challenging and attempting to disproving other people's beliefs to fill a void in yours?

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7810874 - 12/29/07 03:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Delusion
A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary.



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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #7812524 - 12/30/07 02:18 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

ObliviousSeeker, personalisms are against the rules of this forum.

Please don't do it again.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Diploid]
    #7812552 - 12/30/07 02:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
ObliviousSeeker, personalisms are against the rules of this forum.

Please don't do it again.




why do you care?

this is a fucking internet forum

none of this matters

at all

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7812560 - 12/30/07 02:45 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

for real

we are grains of sand


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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7812572 - 12/30/07 02:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I care because it's my job.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #7813018 - 12/30/07 10:19 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
ObliviousSeeker, personalisms are against the rules of this forum.

Please don't do it again.






why do you care?

this is a fucking internet forum

none of this matters

at all




Mind your own business:rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Icelander]
    #7813080 - 12/30/07 10:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The image below if that if the first coin minted by the USA. It is a near half-dollar sized copper penny called a Fugio Cent. On the obverse are 13 interlocking circles (signifying the 13 colonies) with the words, "WE ARE ONE".

Not sure if you can read it, but on the bottom there is a message to England: "MIND YOUR BUSINESS". Those impudent upstarts!



--------------------

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7855309 - 01/09/08 06:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I guess this an old thread, but I'll reply anyway.

Belief without evidence is not mental illness. It's faith. Faith isn't necessarily belief without evidence (you can have faith in something empirically proven) but when you believe in something without empirical/rational evidence (i.e. God), that's what most consider "faith."

Has anyone considered that we all have the utmost faith in the rational mind? People who say they are atheist, or hold no unsupported belief, have complete faith that the rational mind is correct. One cannot rationally prove that the rational mind is correct. There is no rational evidence of the rational mind being correct. Is then believing your rational mind is correct not belief without evidence? Certainly, we're not all victims of mental illness, given the standard unprovable rational definition of the term :wink:

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: tsquad]
    #7855810 - 01/09/08 08:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well said my friend! I don't believe anybody could come closer to what I think!


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7855931 - 01/09/08 08:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Adopting a handed-down myth is the antithesis to thinking.

What you guys are saying is that there is absolutely no reason to believe in God, but you do anyway. That, my friends, is a sign of mental illness.


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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7856100 - 01/09/08 08:59 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe our understanding of the mind isn't complete and the term mental illness doesn't define a set group of people? Maybe mental illness should be more elastic in it's definition?

I never said that I believe in god, I think that what tsquad is trying to ultimately say is popular (world) opinion says there is a god. Mental illness is traditionally regarded as the unpopular opinion.

Is being wrongfully optimistic in a situation a mental defect?

Is being anorexic mental illness?

Is being gay mental illness? Suicidal? Power hungry (in the case of a dictatorship)? Enjoying the color blue when the obvious answer is red?

I'm not denying that some, most, or all of the above are mental illness, however I need to put them in the same category as religion.

I believe that mental illness isn't applicable to a black and white classification. There isn't a stable/non stable duality in our thought process, it's a multi-shaded extremely complex tapestry of which we don't fully grasp.


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7856200 - 01/09/08 09:22 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Mental illness is debatable and honestly I don't believe in it's common definition and in most cases I highly doubt it exists.
BUT there is delusion. Delusion exists and can lead to a series of other erroneous chain of thoughts which can create anxiety, confusion and the like. In this way I could say that mental illness exists and that is real.
Enjoying life, REALITY, is in my opinion a sign of mental health.
In this way I guess I could say that the opposite of that is not healthy for the mind. And also that it's against progress.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7856211 - 01/09/08 09:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well said my fox friend!


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7856347 - 01/09/08 09:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Fox? Are you seeing things that aren't there? Not a good sign.


--------------------

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: wyldeman007]
    #7856870 - 01/09/08 11:10 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wyldeman007 said:
Is being anorexic mental illness?





LOL yes it is, well at least thats what my psychology professor said, who happens to be a pyschologist/PhD from Berkeley. If you wanna disprove her go ahead.


--------------------

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7857123 - 01/09/08 11:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Adopting a handed-down myth is the antithesis to thinking.

What you guys are saying is that there is absolutely no reason to believe in God, but you do anyway. That, my friends, is a sign of mental illness.




Not all religious people have adopted a handed-down myth; some actually think about it...hard to believe in our country, I know.

People have every reason to believe in God, and every reason not to. Many religious people are religious because they have a reason to be, not because they are blindly accepting what someone has told them, myself included.

Also, the point I was making about the rational mind...believing in any religion is as baseless as not believing in any religion. You have no reason to believe in religion, and you have no reason not to believe in religion. That's why it's called faith. Religion, and how right it/your view is, is no more provable or evidenced than the rational mind, and how right it/your rational thought is.

"You" is used in the general sense, I'm not directing this at anybody in particular

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: tsquad]
    #7857145 - 01/09/08 11:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

People have every reason to believe in God

If that's so, they also have every reason to believe in the Tooth Fairy. :shrug:

The net sum of evidence supporting the existence of God is exactly the same as the evidence supporting the existence of the Tooth Fairy. Specifically: ZERO EVIDENCE.

believing in any religion is as baseless as not believing in any religion

Direct answer, please:

Is believing in the Tooth Fairy as baseless as not believing in the Tooth Fairy?

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Diploid]
    #7857195 - 01/09/08 11:58 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Well the tooth fairy has only "been around" for about a hundred years and has no affiliation with anything other than teeth.


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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: learningtofly]
    #7857216 - 01/10/08 12:01 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Alright. If longevity is a good metric for validity, then is believing in Santa Claus as baseless as not believing in Santa Clause? He's been around since what, about 300 A.D.?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Diploid]
    #7857226 - 01/10/08 12:02 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

There is far more evidence for some sort of intelligence underlying reality than for santa or the tooth fairy.

Many geneticists and physicists have become theists after realizing the sheer perfection and precision of "mother nature".

Thinking that the universe and life just assembled itself blindly through trial and error is like thinking a tornado could assemble a jumbo jet by tearing through a junkyard.

Maybe on a nearly infinite timescale but not over a mere 13.7 Billion years...

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Middleman]
    #7857251 - 01/10/08 12:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Thinking that the universe and life just assembled itself blindly through trial and error is like thinking a tornado could assemble a jumbo jet by tearing through a junkyard.




Creationist parroting showing a complete misuderstanding of probability and evolutionary process.

Good job! Polly want a cracker?


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Offlinetsquad
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Diploid]
    #7857254 - 01/10/08 12:10 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"Are believing in the Tooth Fairy as baseless as not believing in the Tooth Fairy?"

No. There is evidence that says the Tooth Fairy does not exist: your parents put money under the pillow and take the tooth.


If we really want to get theoretical, though, the parent taking the tooth is just the rational interpretation of the stimulus received and processed by the brain. Essentially, again what I said before, the rational mind is baseless, and we really cannot know what is Actual. I guess what I'm saying is that saying anything with any conviction is an illusion, because we are told what to think by sensory input decoded by chemicals and such. JMO

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Offlinetsquad
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Middleman]
    #7857263 - 01/10/08 12:12 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:Thinking that the universe and life just assembled itself blindly through trial and error is like thinking a tornado could assemble a jumbo jet by tearing through a junkyard.




It can.

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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7857275 - 01/10/08 12:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Thinking that the universe and life just assembled itself blindly through trial and error is like thinking a tornado could assemble a jumbo jet by tearing through a junkyard.




Creationist parroting showing a complete misuderstanding of probability and evolutionary process.

Good job! Polly want a cracker?




FTR, I'm not a creationist, but it's you materialists that do not understand probability.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Middleman]
    #7857286 - 01/10/08 12:17 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thinking that the universe and life just assembled itself blindly through trial and error is like thinking a tornado could assemble a jumbo jet by tearing through a junkyard.

Wow. I rarely see such absolute and complete utter ignorance of natural evolutionary processes even among Bible Belters and Tennessee public school officials.

You REALLY need to read a little man. Really!

I think the last time I saw such magnitude of ignorance was when I visited the Creation Museum web site. They use your same argument, you know. :thumbdown:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Diploid]
    #7857298 - 01/10/08 12:21 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I was referring to astrophysics more than evolution...

Comments like "Polly want a cracker?" and "You really need to read a little man." say more about your characters than mine.

I am, and was parroting, an interventionist, not a creationist, btw.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Middleman]
    #7857348 - 01/10/08 12:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If you don't want to be treated like a parrot then don't act like one. A brain is more than a recording device.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: daytripper23]
    #7857351 - 01/10/08 12:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Nice topic!

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Middleman]
    #7857438 - 01/10/08 01:04 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

There is far more evidence for some sort of intelligence underlying reality than for santa or the tooth fairy.

For example?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7857698 - 01/10/08 03:57 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Belief without evidence is mental illness




Quote:

Belief without evidence is assumption





There I fixed that for you.


Quote:

Future respondent: Jeez, OG are you going to be all egotistical and tell us you hold no unsupported beliefs?

OG: Perhaps, I do. Point it/them out and I will examine it/them critically and dispassionately.





Produce one rocksolid fact of absolute truth. A truth which cannot be put in question by applying logic.


Chances are you cannot. As I see it, there are no absolute truths that are known to us to be 100% correct and indisputable.

So, all there is is belief, and it boils down only to which beliefs system you adhere to and how consistently and adeptly you can adhere to it.

By your definition, we are all mentally ill. I prefer to look at it that we hold assumptions.

I have freed myself from the notion that I can have absolute certainties that anything I believe in is the rocksolid absolute truth. You however seem still ensnared by the delusion of knowing the absolute truth. Free yourself, before you hurt yourself or others with this kind of radical thought.


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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Asante]
    #7858301 - 01/10/08 09:18 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)


I have freed myself from the notion that I can have absolute certainties that anything I believe in is the rocksolid absolute truth. You however seem still ensnared by the delusion of knowing the absolute truth. Free yourself, before you hurt yourself or others with this kind of radical thought.


While I agree with you I don't think that is being said here. What is being done is applying logic and evidence and compiling a reasonable best guess. While having faith may have some positive application in certain circumstances, IMO, it's a lousy and dangerous (often to others) way to run a life.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Icelander]
    #7860044 - 01/10/08 03:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Even if it's extremely unlikely that the universe just created life there is still the possibility, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, just the same as there is the possibility that "something else" created it. No matter how ridiculous or off-chance it may seem, there is still a possibility. Fuck we need a time machine to go back and figure this shit out.


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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: learningtofly]
    #7860195 - 01/10/08 03:36 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

If you ignore the mechanics of any system it's impossible to prove or disprove. Believe what you want, nature is observable and rational therefore proof of it's existence!

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I don't deny anorexia as being a disease! I just point out that we don't fully understand the human mind. There could be no definitive mental illness for all we know!


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"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins

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