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 fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,071
Last seen: 25 days, 1 hour
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 Calling the Ungodly - Good News 
#7441369 - 09/22/07 05:11 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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The scripture declares all ungodly and all fall short of the glory of God. It declares man to be dead in transgressions and blind to God's standard of righteousness. It also says man is blind to these truths due to his innate state of spiritual depravity. The good news is to the ungodly, for those who are made to see their own unrighteousness before the unbending law of God. The good news is only to those who know themselves to be undone and ruined as unrighteous and without hope. The only way to know this is by the convicting power wrought by the Spirit of God on the soul of the dead wretch. This is the first step in the conversion of the unrighteous. You are not able to see yourself as ungodly. But the good news is to the ungodly. God convicts the ungodly so that the good news can apply in their consciences. He is completely sovereign in bringing the spiritually dead to spiritual life. This quickening comes with power, and the Spirit and the Word of truth is believed.
Grace overcomes all transgressions. Grace is the good news. Grace is forgiveness. Grace is love. Grace is gentle. The converted are shown God's grace and are thankful for it. They are completely undeserving of it and they know it. Life is through the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. May you one day know what I am saying. May God bless all those reading this, through Jesus Christ's precious blood alone.
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,612
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
#7441395 - 09/22/07 05:21 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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This is a good forum for this.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
#7441401 - 09/22/07 05:23 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Do you believe what the scriptures say?
(is he who hesitates really lost...)
Edited by Booby (09/22/07 05:31 PM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
 
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 24 minutes
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
#7441489 - 09/22/07 06:04 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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--------------------
    
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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WScott
⍾ (´▽｀) ⍾
Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 3,201
Last seen: 4 days, 3 hours
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7442385 - 09/22/07 11:27 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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fivepointer, did Jesus want to be worshipped as God, or did he want Man to worship God along side him?
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths
Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 201
Loc: carrollton, tx
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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 Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
#7442556 - 09/23/07 12:40 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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fivepointer, are you a Calvinist?
To be honest, I think your methodology of expressing your doctrines may be slightly off.
I mean, I'm sure you really do love the people here, and everyone in the world, but saying that someone is 'depraved' has quite a different meaning than it did to people centuries ago. Heck, even then I think it probably didn't even give the right impression.
Also, you're making it sound as if the law of God is an arbitrary whim and not common sense to every individual. Please read Romans 2 through carefully.
All that aside, what constitutes making a person 'depraved'? Is there one definition for all, or is it different for each person? What is it specifically that they have to realize about themselves and God's law in order to change and become, shall I say, good?
Also, what does God do for us after we accept Him?
Thanks for your response in advance.
Cheers  
Edited by stellar renegade (09/23/07 12:48 AM)
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,071
Last seen: 25 days, 1 hour
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: WScott]
#7442994 - 09/23/07 04:58 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
WScottsdale said:
fivepointer, did Jesus want to be worshipped as God, or did he want Man to worship God along side him?
Jesus is the express image of God, if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father. In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. The world was created by Him and for Him. I don’t see how you can worship God without worshipping Jesus as well.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,071
Last seen: 25 days, 1 hour
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fivepointer, are you a Calvinist?
The term "Calvinist" can mean different things depending on how you care to define it. I would say I agree with the TULIP, that salvation is 100% by grace, and 0% by works. In fact if someone thinks salvation is 0.0001% works they have missed the gospel entirely. Most "Calvinists" do not exclusively believe that pure grace is a gospel essential that is revealed in conversion. I believe all Arminians are unregenerate without exception, and all who tolerate Arminians (toleration is considering them within the bounds of orthodoxy) are unregenerate as well. For this I am shunned by modern "Calvinists" of today.
To be honest, I think your methodology of expressing your doctrines may be slightly off.
I mean, I'm sure you really do love the people here, and everyone in the world, but saying that someone is 'depraved' has quite a different meaning than it did to people centuries ago. Heck, even then I think it probably didn't even give the right impression.
Also, you're making it sound as if the law of God is an arbitrary whim and not common sense to every individual. Please read Romans 2 through carefully.
Romans 2 explains that man has the law written on his heart, and he is without excuse. However, man is unable to understand the righteousness of God, due to his depraved nature due to the fall. Unregenerate man can not understand the law, that it requires absolute perfection, and God is absolutely holy. Religious man stumbles on the law, thinking that he can obtain right standing with God through good works. Today this usually takes the form of believing that justification comes due to performing various righteous acts, such as making a decision, getting baptized, following sacraments, acts of penance, keeping from sin, going to church, ect.. All these things do not, and can not justify. No act done by a sinner can justify. Only the perfect law keeping of Jesus Christ is acceptable to God, man's works do not enter into the equation. If someone thinks man must synergize with Christ in some way to activate justification, they have missed the gospel.
All that aside, what constitutes making a person 'depraved'? Is there one definition for all, or is it different for each person?
The term "depraved" describes the nature of all men by birth. When most people hear the term "depraved" they think of someone who goes around killing infants, robbing, doing the most horrific acts. This is not how the term is being used here. The most seemingly good, honest, kind, "religious" man is totally depraved. The depravity is the spiritual blindness shown by holding various false notions about God, this is due to the blindness man in born into. The blindness is so total that man can not even see that he is blind. Only when the gospel is revealed does the person realize how lost and blind he was.
What is it specifically that they have to realize about themselves and God's law in order to change and become, shall I say, good? Also, what does God do for us after we accept Him?
When God shows the gospel to someone He shows them who they are by nature, and this is not pretty. The law is a killing instrument, to drive the self-righteous religionist away from themselves and to Christ and His righteousness. Then He gives them a new heart, a new nature, a real change happens to the innermost parts. Any "good" done is because God has wrought that "good" in them due to the new nature that has been freely given.
“Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.”
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Mr. Middle
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 6,531
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 Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
#7443002 - 09/23/07 05:12 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Are you doing some kind of Chaos Magic exercise where you pretend to be an evangelical Xtian?
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Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,462
Last seen: 17 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Mr. Middle]
#7443026 - 09/23/07 05:27 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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More people say Mohammed is the one true path to god than Jesus. Wouldn't it be a laugh, you die, the three representatives of the worlds major western religions all are there, and turn placards to say "Bluff."
Then you just wasted your entire life being pious for the wrong religion, when you could have lead a virtuous life without rubbing it in peoples faces.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,071
Last seen: 25 days, 1 hour
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Mr. Middle]
#7443028 - 09/23/07 05:29 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said:
Are you doing some kind of Chaos Magic exercise where you pretend to be an evangelical Xtian?
I had to Wiki "Chaos Magic", you learn something new every day. The answer to your question is no.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 6 months, 14 days
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Mr. Middle]
#7444104 - 09/23/07 12:22 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said:
Are you doing some kind of Chaos Magic exercise where you pretend to be an evangelical Xtian?
You wouldn't be mocking his beliefs, would you? That's not allowed here.
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Mr. Middle
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 6,531
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Redstorm]
#7444136 - 09/23/07 12:31 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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No. It was a serious question, due to some of his earlier threads.
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,736
Loc: Here
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
#7445848 - 09/23/07 08:39 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think a lot of what you say parallels the beliefs of others. Whether you're able to comprehend them being one in the same seems to be the major question in my mind.
In Chinese, a symbol/letter/character(caricature?) has more than one meaning. This could be the same for English but our language tends to have more precise meaning(as far as I know).
correct me if I'm wrong, but the original new testament was written in Greek? so translations would appear to me to have lost some of the original integrity of these, I guess, scriptures.
Either way, I don't know what your definition of grace or any other holy diety-like extension is but I can definately relate with others who've gone into a trance/altered-state/speak for themselves and not of a book, and have felt this unversal connection with them. At the same time, I feel like if you were to come to accept something completely alien, such that of a trance or whatever then you'd find an outrageous similarity between those feelings and the feelings you experience at an evangelical revival or maybe even sunday services.
I have no idea what right or wrong but I know the world doesn't beat to just one drum so what might be right for you may not be right for some. (I know I had to throw that in there.)
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Click here to check out lineups for Magnoliafest and Springfest in Live Oak, FL
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao ~Tao Te Ching/Daodejing
"Find what you're looking for by not looking for it." ~Old Hippie Philosophy
Edited by Cracka_X (09/24/07 12:15 AM)
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths
Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 201
Loc: carrollton, tx
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: fivepointer]
#7446528 - 09/24/07 01:43 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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fivepointer, to put it short and sweet, I think your views are more extreme than the honest impression that reality lays upon us. I know this isn't the philosophical forum so I'm not debating, but it just appears to me that you're holding onto certain experiences which appear to be very legitimate (at least I have found them to be so) and yet believing as if they're the only kind which exist.
Words are just expressions, and concepts are fluid. I believe that God is much more loose with these outward manifestations of salvation than even most people would believe. To God, salvation is in the heart (as you, fivepointer, believe), but not everybody's heart is like an on/off switch. If you'll notice in Jesus' ministry there were varying degrees of attraction to him. There was a very real dynamic of attraction vs. repulsion going on, and it is true that people could not both follow him and not follow him, but at the same time I think that many people wanted to follow him but didn't/couldn't bring themselves to, and even the Pharisees could, at times, see their sin, even though they did not repent of it. Also, disciples left him at varying points because they could accept some things he said but not others. So that's why I can't bring myself to believe precisely the same way as you do. Although, I did used to feel that way, to be honest.
Also, I believe that salvation is entirely by grace but that most people will not understand that subtle dynamic unless it's embodied in some visual act of repentance. The problem is in making sure that people know it's not because of the act that they are saved, but that their act is (if required of, or volunteered by them) a sign of their repentance.
Anyway, I think you are on the right path and basically have the right motivations about all of this.
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"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 
"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,612
Loc: underbelly
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Anyway, I think you are on the right path and basically have the right motivations about all of this.
Especially his belief that all babies that have not received salvation by accepting Christ are going to burn for eternity in hell.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Mr. Middle
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 6,531
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 Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Icelander]
#7452436 - 09/25/07 03:17 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Come on Icelander, you should know better than to generalize like that.
He never said he believed that. Not all Xtians believe the same things!
It's cool to add conflicting opinions in here, but don't be a sarcastic arse about it PLEASE! 
You have been warned. 
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 6 months, 14 days
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Mr. Middle]
#7454461 - 09/26/07 04:14 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Fivepointer said:
Quote:
The concept that everyone must have an "opportunity" is not Biblical at all. Countless millions have lived and died with no gospel "opportunity". Divine will and purpose are never frustrated by man, each and every person that God intends to save, will become saved, as a direct result of the perfect work performed by Jesus Christ on behalf of His people. Christ's work is NOT for those who perish. His work guarantees salvation for His chosen people and none others!
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/2647129#Post2647129
Quote:
People who have never heard the gospel in remote areas of the world and die unconverted, will be righteously judged on the last day and be cast into the Lake of Fire. Every one for whom Christ died will hear the gospel in time, and be converted no exceptions. God is sovereign in His actions and has predestinated who will inherit salvation, and who will be damned. Those who hold to Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc. will not be saved if they continue in that belief until they die.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5121342#5121342
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Mr. Middle
Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 6,531
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 Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Redstorm]
#7454547 - 09/26/07 05:09 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ok I see your point.
I'm praying to The Shroomery gods that "Religion" be removed from M,R+P.
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,736
Loc: Here
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Re: Calling the Ungodly - Good News [Re: Redstorm]
#7454999 - 09/26/07 08:07 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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I had no idea he has been around here that long.
that thread makes me want to vomit, eat my vomit and then vomit again.
--------------------
Click here to check out lineups for Magnoliafest and Springfest in Live Oak, FL
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao ~Tao Te Ching/Daodejing
"Find what you're looking for by not looking for it." ~Old Hippie Philosophy
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