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InvisibleReoSpeedwagon153
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Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 2,098
Loc: Chetumal, Mexico
Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7124835 - 07/03/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
WHAT? i was born, LSD is made in a lab....how does that make sense?




Do you really not understand?

You come from the natural matrix of species, and evolution, and organisms, and such. Your species produces LSD, in much the same way that mushrooms produce psilocybin.

They are equally natural.


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“I thought naming myself ‘ReoSpeedwagon153’ on a forum was a funny idea in 2006.”

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Offlineenesi
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7124838 - 07/03/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
WHAT? i was born, LSD is made in a lab....how does that make sense?


you were created by a pair of humans, were you not? So was lsd :wink:

LSD was an accident, people make people all the time by accident. :wink:


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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: enesi]
    #7124916 - 07/03/07 03:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Because i was born by natural process, the same natural process which brings about other animals, not just humans. LSD is made by unnatural chemical means and is not naturally occurring except along side with a bunch of other crazy chemicals in ergot fungi. Now Mckenna has argued that Plato may have taken a type of Ergot-beer which where used for mystical rites on Crete...i believe this is called the Elysian mystery, but aren't sure.

Wiccan you said it's not proven that plants like peyote contain
other chemicals than mescaline, That is proven without a doubt by more than one source. It is also shown from some sources that many mushrooms contain unidentified psychedelic chemicals, Panaeolus Subb. is said to have the pre-cursor to serotonin plus psilocybin and psilocin, if you don't believe me. Do some research.


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"We are the one's we have been waiting for"-Hopi proverb

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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7124924 - 07/03/07 03:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
Because i was born by natural process, the same natural process which brings about other animals, not just humans. LSD is made by unnatural chemical means and is not naturally occurring except along side with a bunch of other crazy chemicals in ergot fungi.




So since you seem to know so much about this, please define the following terms:

"unnatural chemical means"

and for that matter "unnatural"

also

"other crazy chemicals"

Quote:

Now Mckenna has argued that Plato may have taken a type of Ergot-beer which where used for mystical rites on Crete...i believe this is called the Elysian mystery, but aren't sure.




Actually it was Hoffman and others who posited this theory, not McKenna.


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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: enesi]
    #7124932 - 07/03/07 03:35 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

LSD wasn't an accident, but its psychedelic effects were unexpected. (though they did not come out of the blue)

Chlordiazepoxide (Librium) was an accident. They wanted to make a molecule but botched the synthesis and ended up with Librium in their flask. They didn't know this and administered it and people felt groovy, a bit drunk and unafraid. Only then did they discover the synthesis had not produced the desired molecule.
We had the discovery of benzodiazepines thanks to this, which turned the world around.


--------------------
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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7124970 - 07/03/07 03:49 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Ok the reason I stick with the organic is-
1) They have a long history of human use, some 1000s of years and show no ill effects in those societies. LSD has been around for little over 50. XTC less than 35 years in common use.
But I don’t think anybody is arguing that XTC is equally as healthy as the plant drugs.
2) The natural plant psychedelics also demand a lot of respect and knowledge, not everybody can prepare a cacti properly, make a decent Aya’ brew, or identify the right ‘shroom; But everyone can pop an LSD blotter in their mouth or swallow some synthetic mescaline. The plant drugs almost have a built in safety net where you must gain great knowledge of them in order to use them properly, with knowledge comes respect and with respect the presence for abuse is almost non-existent. There’s plenty of LSD abusers, no one can argue that XTC is not addictive.
Buy how many “Cactus-heads” do you know? Or “Aya’ Heads”? I’ve never even heard of any....
3) The chemicals in Aya’ are almost exactly what you already have in your brain. Psilocybin VERY closely resembles serotonin. And mescaline is said to be sometimes produced under extreme circumstances in the human body (McKenna, Online Ayahuasca Discussion Recording). So these three chemicals are familiar to the human brain, so when the enter your body, your mind doesn’t say “What the fuck is that?”

I have no problem with anybody taking LSD or XTC. I do have a serious problem with Heroin, Cocaine, meth and anything else in that category. For me tho, I only prefer to put things in my body that are 1) Been used for a very long period of time and show no ill effects, 2) Demand knowledge, respect and have no rate of addiction. 3) They already occur or closely resemble chemicals already existing in the brain.


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"We are the one's we have been waiting for"-Hopi proverb

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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7124977 - 07/03/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
2) The natural plant psychedelics also demand a lot of respect and knowledge, not everybody can prepare a cacti properly, make a decent Aya’ brew, or identify the right ‘shroom; But everyone can pop an LSD blotter in their mouth or swallow some synthetic mescaline. The plant drugs almost have a built in safety net where you must gain great knowledge of them in order to use them properly, with knowledge comes respect and with respect the presence for abuse is almost non-existent. There’s plenty of LSD abusers, no one can argue that XTC is not addictive.
Buy how many “Cactus-heads” do you know? Or “Aya’ Heads”? I’ve never even heard of any....




There are plenty of people on this website alone that abuse mushrooms, do them way too often, and lose touch with reality and get embedded in their own ego because of abusing cacti and mushrooms. Have you actually done LSD? It, like all other psychedelics, demands respect to get the most out of it.

Quote:

3) The chemicals in Aya’ are almost exactly what you already have in your brain. Psilocybin VERY closely resembles serotonin.




Guess what? Like psilocybin, LSD is also an indole hallucinogen and works on your brain for the same reason of similar structure that you cite in your defense of psilocybin.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7124978 - 07/03/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

i appreicate any help i certainly dont have all the answer, you are correct Mckenna just discussed Hoffman's idea. I'm sorry i do not know the process that creates LSD, all i know is that it must be created in a "lab" or mock lab, and there is certainly no plant which i can pick blotter off of. So its not for me. I'm sure LSD can teach you alot, but i have my 3 reasons


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"We are the one's we have been waiting for"-Hopi proverb

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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7124992 - 07/03/07 03:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
i appreicate any help i certainly dont have all the answer, you are correct Mckenna just discussed Hoffman's idea. I'm sorry i do not know the process that creates LSD, all i know is that it must be created in a "lab" or mock lab, and there is certainly no plant which i can pick blotter off of. So its not for me. I'm sure LSD can teach you alot, but i have my 3 reasons




Did you know that ALbert Hoffman isolated psilocybin, recreated it SYNTHETICALLY, and presented the mushrooms in synthetic pill form to the same woman who first gave a westerner (Gordon Wasson) a psilocybin experience?

Do you think she said "oh no this isn't the same as the mushrooms?" No in fact she said, "Wow, now I can help people have this experience all year long instead of waiting for the mushroom season."

If synthetic was good enough for a 60 year old practitioner of the shamanic use of mushrooms, it should be good enough for you.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7124993 - 07/03/07 03:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I know i wont change your mind on this stuff, LSD does resemble chemicals in the brain just as psilocybin does. But psilocybin does more so than LSD. I have my 3 reason, and thats just my point of view. I believe if you stick to those 3 criteria then you'll have the healthiest drug experiences possible.


--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for"-Hopi proverb

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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7125003 - 07/03/07 03:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

ok but then theres the whole trace chemical thing that i like....so i guess i have 4 reasons. My 4th being natural drugs contain extra trace chemicals which color the psychedelic experience verus sythetics which usually only contain 1 chemical. Shit synthetic psilocybin does'nt even have any psilocin! You can't tell me that does'nt make it different. Not to mention baeocyin(i know spelling is not correct)...and other chemicals.:grin:


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"We are the one's we have been waiting for"-Hopi proverb

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OfflineAlCapwn
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Registered: 02/03/07
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7125005 - 07/03/07 04:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Health wise, synthetic is pretty much identical. However, I like organic because there's just a je-ne-sais-quoi about something grown. Also, growing your own drugs is fun. Otherwise, synthetic is still the same.


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!

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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,026
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7125008 - 07/03/07 04:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
Shit synthetic psilocybin does'nt even have any psilocin! You can't tell me that does'nt make it different. Not to mention baeocyin(i know spelling is not correct)...and other chemicals.:grin:




Maria Sabina (the mexican woman) embraced the synthetic psilocybin eagerly.  And she had probably been using mushrooms for much longer than you have.


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis

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OfflineDarkMoon21
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7125064 - 07/03/07 04:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
I believe if you stick to those 3 criteria then you'll have the healthiest drug experiences possible.





NEVER tell someone else what's good for them. Especially for something as personalized as the psychedelic experience. That being said, if you want to close the doors of perception to the lsd realm, then so be it, your missing out. But don't preach, and please don't argue. We don't need people telling us how bad these substances are from within our own community as well as without. In any case, keep an open mind, opinions only barricade out the essential experience of life. Whether synthetic or not, we're all using the substances essentially for the same reasons; peace of mind, body, and soul, exploration of ourselves and the worlds around us, and sometimes even just good ole' fashioned trippin' out.


--------------------
-=-Never Sigh For Better World
It's Already Composed
Played And Told-=-

Science gives a consistent how with an incomplete why.
Faith gives an inconsistent how with a complete why.

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Offlineenesi
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7125065 - 07/03/07 04:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
i appreicate any help i certainly dont have all the answer, you are correct Mckenna just discussed Hoffman's idea. I'm sorry i do not know the process that creates LSD, all i know is that it must be created in a "lab" or mock lab, and there is certainly no plant which i can pick blotter off of. So its not for me. I'm sure LSD can teach you alot, but i have my 3 reasons


You lack knowledge on something you are talking down upon. I think you should gather more personal experience on LSD before you take such a strong stand against it.

LSD, psilocybin,mescaline, dmt, they are all very similar. The process in which they are prepared shouldn't be the deciding factor in their usefulness as a psychedelic.

On another note, Caffine is a natural pesticide in plants and is the world's most widely consumed psychoactive substance. People using a pesticide for a stimulant doesn't seem very natural if you ask me. And i hope you don't drink energy drinks, to get the caffiene for them,some of the companies use chemical sythesis to make it.


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Invisiblethedudenj
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7125067 - 07/03/07 04:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

i have noticed Natural stuff tends not to leave negative after effects which synth do (tho not always) if anything our bodies well for some are adapted to natural pysches due to ancestral use as where synth arnt.

btw i tend to find picked mushrooms far better then anyones bought or grown tho out door grown are probally just as good.


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7125086 - 07/03/07 04:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Ha ha no doubt she had been using mushrooms longer than me, it's wonderful she accepted synthetic psilocybin. But i dout she knew much about the chemical make-up of shrooms or the fact that most shrooms contain psilocybin, psilocin and baeocyin. As i said no way synthetic psilocybin is the same of a shroom containing psilocybin, psilocin and baeocyin.


--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for"-Hopi proverb

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Offlineenesi
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: thedudenj]
    #7125088 - 07/03/07 04:22 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

thedudenj said:
i have noticed Natural stuff tends not to leave negative after effects which synth do (tho not always) if anything our bodies well for some are adapted to natural pysches due to ancestral use as where synth arnt.

btw i tend to find picked mushrooms far better then anyones bought or grown tho out door grown are probally just as good.



There are many more variables, set and setting have a greater impact on "negative after effects", then does wild versus home grown.


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Offlineenesi
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Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7125095 - 07/03/07 04:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
As i said no way synthetic psilocybin is the same of a shroom containing psilocybin, psilocin and baeocyin.



Obviously

You are comparing one chemical to 3, anyone that reads highlights magazine can tell you what's different between the two pictures.


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InvisibleChiefGreenLeaf

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,596
Re: Organics Vs. Synthetics??? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7125098 - 07/03/07 04:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I think this can be solved using Gibbs def of free energy
if the change in free energy is less then zero favored reaction (Spontaneous)
equals zero Neither the forward nor the reverse reaction prevails
greater then zero disfavored reaction (Nonspontaneous)

The equation is deltaG=deltaH-TdeltaS
deltaH is change in enthalpy
deltaS is change in entropy
T is time
if anyone knows these measurements for LSD then go ahead and end this argument

oops... i hadnt read all the thread until after i posted. my post tries to determine if there is LSD floating around in space.

Edited by ChiefGreenLeaf (07/03/07 04:31 PM)

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