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Diploid said:
Eventually, yes, the US will be ready, but that's not going to be this time around, IMO.

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OneMoreRobot3021 said:
Yeah I don't believe the country is ready for drug reform on the federal level

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Diploid said:
Better to focus on achievable goals, like universal health care and dumping our dependence on foreign oil, than to waste effort on the hopeless cause of reforming our drug policies.

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OneMoreRobot3021 said:
We need to change the way people are educated about drugs. I really think the legalization in more (and eventually most, and then all) states of marijuana for medicinal purposes is the most realistic goal we have, and the one we should be striving for.

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gopenguins said:
Again, what makes something realistic?

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So you're saying Ron Paul can't win so nobody should support him? Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy and I dispute your 'logic'. I agree as a nation we should be able to act in our best interests. For example strengthening border security, which Paul staunchly supports. I assume your beef is with statements like this one:

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We in the past have always declared war in the defense of our liberties or go to aid of somebody,” he said. “But now we have accepted the principle of preemptive war — we have rejected the Just War theory of Christianity.

"We have to come to our senses about this issue of war and preemption and go back to traditions and our constitution and defend our liberties and defend our rights."

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Ythan said:
So you're saying Ron Paul can't win so nobody should support him? Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy and I dispute your 'logic'.

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I agree as a nation we should be able to act in our best interests. For example strengthening border security, which Paul staunchly supports. I assume your beef is with statements like this one:

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We in the past have always declared war in the defense of our liberties or go to aid of somebody,” he said. “But now we have accepted the principle of preemptive war — we have rejected the Just War theory of Christianity.

"We have to come to our senses about this issue of war and preemption and go back to traditions and our constitution and defend our liberties and defend our rights."

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He was talking about the Iraq war and yes, some people think it's ridiculous to spend up to two TRILLION dollars (over $6,500 for ever man, woman and child in the US) fighting an enemy that never posed a threat to us in the first place. To say Paul's a bad candidate or not a libertarian because you disagree with him on that issue is ludicrous. 

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And I think you are an utter fool if you don't think that Saddam was a threat.

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Ythan said:
It's ludicrous to dismiss him out of hand because you disagree with him on one pet issue. Especially a stupid one like Iraq which you can't even back up with any facts. Of course you're free to hold whatever beliefs you want and to talk as much shit as you want in this thread. I just think your belligerent condescending attitude doesn't do much to complement your tenuous grip on reality.

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To say Paul's a bad candidate (or not a libertarian) because you disagree with him on that issue is ludicrous.

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zappaisgod said:
I have backed that opinion up with more facts than you can comprehend, which is something you would barely be aware of because you hardly ever come here. 

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Bullshit. Could you explain, specifically, how Saddam Hussein was such a major threat to the United States of America and our interests?

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And I think you are an utter fool if you don't think that Saddam was a threat.

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Redstorm said:
You can add me to that parade, then, as well.

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*bumps Redstorm aside*

I am the freakin' drum major for that parade.

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Diploid said:
And I think you are an utter fool if you don't think that Saddam was a threat.

Hussein was a threat that could have been contained without a war.

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In the weeks leading up to the invasion, Hussein practically begged to have UNSCM inspectors reenter the country and begin systematic inspections. That would have found any WMD, had there been any, and prevented their future development or acquisition. All Bush had to do to keep Hussein contained was to send in the inspectors and enforce existing Security Council resolutions.

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Bush dragged us into this war because of his ego, not because Hussein was a threat. And he did it against the advice of many people who warned him that a civil war would be the likely outcome.

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And here we are...

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zappaisgod said:
Yes, here we are, with another derailed thread.

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but an interesting one.

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Just those two view-points alone freak me out.

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I would bet, most any shroomerite supporting him is all for gay rights and is pro choice. I would bet they also freaked out when they learned of his personal views there.

With all there is to gain from having Ron Paul redirecting our country back to the Constitution it was founded upon,  the risk of some states banning abortions, is one I think we are willing to take in the final analysis, when determining the greatest good for all, for the future of our country.

States can still decide to legalize gay marriage and adoption if they want to under Paul. They can right now, yet not many have. At least with Paul in, you can rest assured the Feds won't be able to tell the states, that have legalized gay rights, that they can't any longer.

Personally, whenever I find myself getting angry with local, state or the federal government, it always comes down to seeing corrupt Politrickians ignoring the Constitution or Bill of Rights to pass new laws, in favor of lobby money.



Ron Paul has proven to honor his oath to serve under those documents.

THAT truth about what else he also strongly beleives in blows me away into a positive light, much more then those two issues bothered me in a negative one.

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gettinjiggywithit said:
States can still decide to legalize gay marriage and adoption if they want to under Paul. They can right now, yet not many have.

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South Dakota did, and then the voters lined up to reverse that.

States rights all the way. The federal government should focus solely upon facillitating opinions of the states on issues like foreign policy and interstate commerce.

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Phred said:

Are those of you who favor Ron Paul as the Republican candidate for president willing to register as Republicans and get involved in selecting delegates to the Republican convention? Because that's the only way he will become the Republican candidate in 2008. All the internet polls in the world, all the threads on message boards, all the online petitions, mean exactly zero. The Republican candidate and his running mate will be chosen by Republican delegates at the Republican convention. And those Republican delegates vote the way they are directed to by the various regional Republican party honchos. So unless you want to invest some serious time and effort in your local Republican Party branch, your input amounts to exactly zero.

You want to be activists for change? Join the Republican Party today.



Phred

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Silversoul said:
There's a lot about him that I disagree with

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factory81 said:
You see how fucked up health care is in America......and thats with the private sector running it. No matter how you cut it.

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Health care in America is fucked up?

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On the Colbert report he was asked to raise his hand when he hears a government agency he would keep. DOE, IRS, everything gone.....

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I am not saying the democrats have a better health care plan, but the mail service should NOT be something for profit.

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Has anyone seen what has happened in private correctional facilities? I seen a video of guards sicking dogs on innocent people laying on the floor for example. I am not claiming a STATE ran correctional facility doesn't have some wackos running the pen, but a business has one goal.

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What we need is SOCIALIZED medicine........it would cost roughly 8 billion a year to cover everyone in America on top of Medicare which don't forget is 15% of the national budget.

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No, we don't need SOCIALIZED medicine. The countries that DO have SOCIALIZED medicine are, more and more, looking to privatization to solve the woes inherent in their system. 15% of the national budget is quite a lot for one horribly inefficent government program.

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If we spend I forgot how many hundreds of millions a day on the war in Iraq (isn't it something like 200-300 million a day). Just think what we could do with that money.

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That money is costing us a hell of a lot of money. How much are we in debt, again? And we think we can afford to piss away all of this money right now?

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So MAYBE Paul has some good foreign policy ideas, yes he speaks what I want to hear until I hear him go on about privatizing everything.

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So you must be all for a controlling, restrictive government, then. I think Ron Paul obviously realizes that the more you invest in controlling all of these different systems, the more you are wasting your resources and impeding the natural growth of these systems. The principle of a limited federal government is a notion that this country was actually founded upon, in case you weren't aware. There is nothing keeping any of these fifty states from having their own government agencies.

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If Paul became president just watch what companies start getting all these contracts and become the next Haliburton. In other words...the stock market would love it.

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What contracts?

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Bottom line, biggest issue in America. Rapid job loss / median family income = shit / Health Care.

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If every American had health insurance imagine how many hundreds of thousands of people would be put to work to take care of these people? How many hospitals would be built?

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factory81 said:
Fire,

Since you love to dissect a post....


Health care in America sucks. 50 Million without health care. My Mom still lives in America and she is a twice lung cancer patient, and now kidney cancer patient. Out of pocket expanses for me right now are just creeping above $14,300 USD for my Mothers own health care.
Why am I even talking to you about this...you respond with "Health Care is fucked up?" with your retard smiley face like you have no clue what I am talking about. You are like George Bush global warming.

All you have to pay is $14,300 and you're complaining?????? Unbelievable. Maybe you want us to pick up your rent and grocery bills too. And anthropogenic global warming is more and more looking like a hoax to me.

Clearly not everything should be in the states control. Would it be okay if Texas allowed automatic fire-arms? Then what if another state allowed abortions after the baby was out of the womb(well that would just be murder then, but what defines a human life you know?). I think some issues should be mandated by the federal government. I don't want states deciding just because they CAN they will...just because we can allow whatever smog emissions doesn't mean we should allow it now does it? As Chris Rock would say, I can drive with my feet, but that don't make it a good fucking idea.

Nonsense. Pretty much ludicrous speculation. With a large dash of straw man. (What does define human life?) There is already a wide range of gun laws from state to state, what's your point?

Mail will be obsolete? Do you also think art that isn't digital will become obsolete too? Should we just stop selling canvas, and paints now? Competitive enough to handle it all? Show me where I can ship a letter for 41 cents at any of your private shipping companies.

Wow. Just wow. I don't believe I have ever seen a more ridiculous analogy. Although I don't agree with the notion that mail will become obsolete any time soon the whole thing about art supplies is just so far out there as to be extra-galactic.

What is your point on health inspectors and restaurants? Yes you need health inspectors, and government wide standards on food. We shouldn't allow State X to allow vegetables sold with X amount of bacteria present, while State Y allows for a significantly less amount.

Corrections is the big expanse for states. You can't out source it, the government still has to pay for the people they decide to imprison. These private jails aren't ran for free you know? You can't educate the people so they can get themselves out of the ghetto, so what do you do with them? Lock them up? If you have been to our jails and seen inmates grammar (not that I am king of the grammar world) you would start to see a pattern. They lacked good education.

Maybe if their fathers had made them go to school they wouldn't be so stupid. They had a chance. They didn't take it. I have yet to see a 100% incarceration rate for any ghetto. Each one there has been put there on his own merits. (Except dopers, but that's another issue).

Yes we need socialized medicine. If I was in need of help, I wouldn't want an insurance card stopping me from it. Just like I wouldn't wish that on you either. I wish everyone could see a doctor if they see themselves in need of one. By not having socialized medicine you deny people health care. Do you suggest my mom dies because she has cancer and cannot get a job with health insurance?

Bullshit. If she can't get a job with insurance she can buy insurance. Like me. If that's important to her. Or she can save the money and start a medical trust fund herself or she can take a chance, a right which should be extended to all. The right to choose. It's called dignity.

Yeah Europe looks at private health care, but they won't. Protests would stop anything from ever happening......they look at making health care a private system like we look at making drugs legal. Yeah there is talk but there is no way in hell its happening.

"Democracies will collapse when the people realize they can vote themselves endless entitlements at the public's expense." Somebody said that or something like it. Meanwhile, things are happening to Europe, there is a change in the air. Whether this entitlement goes is unlikely but I'd rather not start down that horror here at all.

The government remains the largest employer in America. Eliminate all these departments and how many jobs would you lose? Kill the war, have socialized medicine. Spend the 8 billion dollars a year to cover all people including my mom and your mom, and the 50 million people without health insurance, SURELY they would have to build just a few hospitals and hire just a few people to take care of these people. What do hospitals bring? Jobs to a community, not just any job, but jobs that can't be out sourced, jobs that pay well. Jobs that form a good community.
Those people are almost all being cared for already. The elderly and the indigent are covered by medicare and/or medicaid. Others must pay. Should the poorest get the same care as the richest? Of course not. As a personal note, since you like personal notes so much, my mother died of lung cancer 25 years ago. It was very expensive. The company accountant had embezzled the health insurance money. My father had to pay out of his pocket. Sometimes life sucks. We didn't have a telethon although that pretty much wiped him out and then some.

Sure the system is inefficient, I mean the $223 million dollar bridge to nowhere in Alaska is a fine example of what we're doing with money in this country.

Yes, an example of the many being fleeced to benefit the few. Probably not your best tactic here.

I might revise my biggest problems in America. Education is maybe really in the top 3.

Health Care - many countries with NHS have longer life spans, better infant mortality rates, and they manage to insure everyone. How are we to say we have great health insurance, when your better off going to Cuba for a pregnancy.

I would not believe any reports from Cuba but, at any rate, one small sample is ludicrous to use to compare wholes. Maybe they don't even try to help the most at risk. Maybe they force mothers to go to the hospital. We allow people to fuck up in this country. I prefer it that way.

Foreign Policy - you can argue this, GOP polls tend to show 70% or so think the war is going okay / and or just needs more time.

OK

Economy - Have you seen the dollar lately? What more evidence do you need? The middle class is being wiped out by corporations like Wal-Mart who would love to import everything from China.

This is just ridiculous. The economy is kicking ass and almost everybody is benefiting to some degree or other. Have I seen the dollar? Yeah, why I have one right here in my pocket. Looks good to me. If the dollar declines imports go up, good right? If the dollar rises we can buy more foreign goods, good right? It makes pretty much zero difference. Unemployment is at historic lows. Wages have been and will continue to rise. They are trailing indicators. The economy is strong.

Education - I can't say this enough, educate the people, and they will respond. Education brings a drop in crime, better jobs, better communities. The ghettos sure as fuck have no educational system to brag about. How do we reward these schools who fail to make improvements in test scores? We lower government funding...doesn't that seem contrary to what we should be doing?

You have clearly not taken any behavior modification courses.

So what does the government have for an answer? Lets dumb the tests down...yeah that really helps us become a prospering nation. Im sure thats how China got to be so damn rich and smart.

China is neither. They look relatively good only because they were such shit for so long. Have you read any papers about their exports lately? Or about working conditions? I am not aware that tests are being dumbed down, which, in the end makes very little difference because it is only comparisons that matter. Grading on a curve and all that.


It's all about money.....and America doesn't have it either way. The money you hold in your wallets isn't worth what it is printed on.

Yeah. Right. Then why are you whining about the $14,300 that is worthless anyway?


The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse. — James Madison

So if the essence of government is power which is abusable. It looks like the founding fathers already predicted our doom. You just can't in this day and age let the states handle everything. Or you will have another civil war.

States, feds, towns. It's still power. And I haven't heard anybody espouse the notion of the states handling everything. The smaller the population group in charge the more likely the government will respond to the electorate. Is that bad?

Might I add that if there was no civil war, and the North didn't care about slavery. The southern portion of America would no doubt be a third world country. Its our government that issues standards for us to meet.

Interesting extrapolation. Probably wrong but who will ever know? Or care?

Rightly or wrongly, the government has a lot control in many issues. Where should power start, and where should it end? No one really knows, I don't know, and neither do you. There is no one right answer, only many opinions which can form hopefully an agreeable conclusion so we may live in peace, and be prosperous.

In a nutshell you skew my ideas pretty far. Like I said I do like many of Paul's ideas, except privatizing all kinds of shit. You don't get more of a good thing, and health care shows that.
If you think I would want to see your Mother denied health care if she had cancer your fucking sick. My mother is denied health care, and she does have cancer. I have 9 more months of out of pocket expanses to pay for to keep her going until Medicare kicks in.

Well then pal she isn't being denied health care, is she? What is wrong with you that you don't want to pay for your mother's health care? And why should I want to? I have a wife, three kids, me. You can take care of your mother.

Health care is a serious moral issue. It angers me to the extreme that you would rather see people denied health care and dying on the streets.

But she isn't being denied care

Of course in your opinion, lets keep it private, maybe we'll get more of a good thing. Is that good thing my Mom getting denied? Or the fact I have to pay her medical bills a good thing? I hope you never are faced with the issues I am, but in your great health care system I am paying out the wazoo here.

Stop whining and pay the bills. So far they strike me as peanuts. And yeah, it is a good thing you pay. Much better than me. Is this a satire?

I think the good thing would be if she didn't have to worry about money, and she could rest, and cross your nuts....recover.

I have crossed my nuts.

Let's make this personal. Incubus fucking sucks man, but I still don't want your mother to die because she has no health care. That just might be it. I think every human being should have a inalienable right to health care. If your a terrorist living at Gitmo you get health insurance, if your in jail you get health care. I am not bragging about the jails condition of life.

My own father has put it this way, if he was in a position like my mother. He would rob a bank, and wait outside the front to be caught so he could receive free medical care, three hots, and a cot. It's pretty fucking sad that we can afford to cover every prisoner in America, but we will deny citizens who break NO LAWS.


For the ten thousandth time, she isn't being denied care. Pay up.

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factory81 said:
Am I the only one who realizes if I don't pay her health insurance in America she receives no care?

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Diploid said:
America's system is just fine... If you need medical attention you get it, with or without insurance

This is partially true in the case of emergencies, but try having no insurance and a chronic condition like diabetes in the US.

See how many hospitals will up and give you a $100 bottle of insulin, syringes, and related supplies to take home and treat your condition for a month. None will.

Now, when you enter a glycemic coma and arrive in an ambulance, sure, the ER will fix you up. But then they'll send you home with no ongoing treatment until the next time you pass out for lack money to afford your insulin. Meanwhile, every day that passes with uncontrolled diabetes, your kidneys and liver accumulate irreversible damage.

And if you somehow manage to find enough money to pay for insurance, it won't matter because you'll be rejected summarily if you have pre-existing diabetes.

That's not "just fine". That's fucked up.

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gluke bastid said:

Taking government money that is being wasted in ERs and redirecting it towards providing insurance for people is not socialism, it is efficient, logical, and sustainable.

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Rewarding fuck-ups for allowing their health to deteriorate to emergency levels is retarded.

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zappaisgod said:

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gluke bastid said:

Taking government money that is being wasted in ERs and redirecting it towards providing insurance for people is not socialism, it is efficient, logical, and sustainable.

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It is unfortunately none of those things.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/bg1973.cfm

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zappaisgod said:
I keep asking and nobody answers. Ever. Why should I be forced to buy you health insurance? Privelege? No no no, I pay for my insurance. Giving it to you at no cost to you would entail YOU being priveleged.

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zappaisgod said:
Why don't you just buy your own and I'll buy mine? Seems much better to me. I make my decision on what's best for me and you make your decision on what's best for you.

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gluke bastid said:
I have debated this point with you over and over and the article you linked to is yet another piece filled with disaster scenarios dreamed up by a scaremongerer whose only hope of protecting his wealth and privelige is by scaring the less fortunate into cheating themselves out of health care.

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You should be forced to buy me health insurance and I should be forced to buy you health insurance if the majority of the voting citizens of this country decide that it should be so.

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Redstorm said:
Every heard of the term "tyranny of the majority"?

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Isn't that what caused the invasion of Iraq?