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 dedjam
Electro Penguin
Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 2,139
Loc: Moralton, Statesota
Last seen: 1 year, 9 days
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 One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul
#7078764 - 06/22/07 06:51 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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Why, in a forum full of people who either have been themselves or know someone who has been put through the court system for rediculus drug charges, would you be against one of the few people that want to reform the drug system?
Put all the other BS aside. Loss of personal freedom is the worst thing a government can do to someone. Lets put aside all the other arguments just for this thread...please. Why would you not vote for a man whos platform is purely freedom? Why would you not vote for a guy that wants to make it legal for you to control your own body? Why wont you vote for a guy that would help out many of us, our friends and our family that have been prosecuted under unjust and unconstitutional drug laws?
I understand there are important things to decide on. His foreign policy turns alot of people off. But shouldnt domestic things be a priority anyways?
I understand his getting rid of the fed turns people off, but even if he were president, that wouldnt happen. The fed is to big, I know this because I work with them on a daily basis.
I understand some people want the government to help them with their health care and finances. Could you not wait for more years with that to save the thousands of people acorss this country that are being tried under an unjust legal system?
I understand there are bigger issues than drugs. Please dont think I am choosing my president based purely on his platform on drug use (moreso his platform on freedom..), but this is something that touches almost everyone in the country.
I would just like to hear the other thoughts of shroomery members on this. I want to know why, when a real candidate (yes I said real, you may not agree, but that doesnt make it any less true) comes around that wants to reform our drug laws, why such hate? If you dont support him for the Presidency, why can you not still support some of his views so other candidates pick something up from him?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,196
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 4 hours, 39 minutes
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: dedjam]
#7078853 - 06/22/07 07:32 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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> Why ... would you be against one of the few people that want to reform the drug system?
Some people like big government...
Zappa pointed out that he was one of two people that voted against a resolution calling on the UN Security Council to charge Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad with violating international laws pertaining to genocide by calling for the destruction of Israel.
However, the UN Genocide Convention defines the act of genocide as, among other things, the act of killing members of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, the targeted group.
There is a lot of room, in my mind at least, between the act of genocide and the rhetoric Ahmadinejad spews. I'm not trying to defend him, but I don't feel his comments amount to genocide. If his comments do amount to genocide, then shouldn't we be calling on the UN to deal with the KKK here in America?
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Just another spore in the wind.
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 Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,229
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: dedjam] 1
#7078938 - 06/22/07 08:04 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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Why, in a forum full of people who either have been themselves or know someone who has been put through the court system for rediculus drug charges, would you be against one of the few people that want to reform the drug system?
I'm not necessarily against him, but I am a realist. It's better to pick the fights you can win than to waste effort on those you can't.
This country is not ready to reform its drug laws. The majority of the people still believe that recreational drugs should be illegal. There is a multi-billion dollar infrastructure of police, judges, lawyers, drug testing labs, councilors, and jailers, propagandists (like DARE and NIDA), and even community groups whose living is derived from the drug war. All of them will be strongly against ending the War on Drugs and their source of income and they'll mobilize political will against anyone who tries.
And finally, there are the drug cartels who I think covertly or indirectly fund the anti-drug lobby in order to keep the war going and prices high enough to keep their drug business viable. If Islamic fundamentalists are smart, they're doing the same thing to keep opium prices high. This is speculation, but it's what I'd do if I wanted to blow up stoopid Americans on their nickle.
There's just WAY too much opposition for a president to reform our drug policies at this time. Better to focus on achievable goals, like universal health care and dumping our dependence on foreign oil, than to waste effort on the hopeless cause of reforming our drug policies.
Eventually, yes, the US will be ready, but that's not going to be this time around, IMO.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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OneMoreRobot3021
punky jewster
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 60,572
Loc: new york city
Last seen: 10 minutes, 14 seconds
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: Diploid]
#7078949 - 06/22/07 08:06 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Eventually, yes, the US will be ready, but that's not going to be this time around, IMO.
Yeah I don't believe the country is ready for drug reform on the federal level, as the reform machines in individual states are only just beginning to churn. Medical marijuana is on the books in thirteen states at present, and that's only about a quarter of all the states in the U.S.
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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.
-Erik Davis
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dedjam
Electro Penguin
Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 2,139
Loc: Moralton, Statesota
Last seen: 1 year, 9 days
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
#7078964 - 06/22/07 08:12 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
OneMoreRobot3021 said:
Yeah I don't believe the country is ready for drug reform on the federal level
What do you mean "Ready"? what does it take to become ready in your opinion?
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dedjam
Electro Penguin
Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 2,139
Loc: Moralton, Statesota
Last seen: 1 year, 9 days
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: Diploid]
#7078975 - 06/22/07 08:16 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Better to focus on achievable goals, like universal health care and dumping our dependence on foreign oil, than to waste effort on the hopeless cause of reforming our drug policies.
But see, each of those things you listed, you could also say America and its citizens are not ready for. If a goal is not achievable because people do not agree, then nothing would be accomplished.
You mentioned universal health care, im not going to take this thread off topic, but at the same time I will say that America is not ready for this. A large number of people are very agaisnt suck a socialist system.
Who decides what big changes america is ready for, and what they arent? Everything is hopeless if you have a defeatist attitude. No effort is ever wasted if it is something you believe in. Just like no vote is ever wasted by voting for someone who you think wont win.
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OneMoreRobot3021
punky jewster
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 60,572
Loc: new york city
Last seen: 10 minutes, 14 seconds
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: dedjam]
#7078979 - 06/22/07 08:18 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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We need to change the way people are educated about drugs. I really think the legalization in more (and eventually most, and then all) states of marijuana for medicinal purposes is the most realistic goal we have, and the one we should be striving for.
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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.
-Erik Davis
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dedjam
Electro Penguin
Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 2,139
Loc: Moralton, Statesota
Last seen: 1 year, 9 days
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
#7078989 - 06/22/07 08:22 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
OneMoreRobot3021 said:
We need to change the way people are educated about drugs. I really think the legalization in more (and eventually most, and then all) states of marijuana for medicinal purposes is the most realistic goal we have, and the one we should be striving for.
Again, what makes something realistic? What is a realistic goal for you, may not be for others. People see things from different perspectives.
I understand what you are saying. I just dont understand why people are willing to play politics and sell themselves short over something that touches so many people all over the country. People think it cant be done, so they make no effort to do things. This isnt just with this issue, but any issue. People think that if it is going to end in defeat it just isnt worth it, why?? Have we as americans bread a society that is scared to speak out on their beliefs because they may not come out on top in the end? Is being on the winning side, more important than being on the "right" (subjective of course) side?
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OneMoreRobot3021
punky jewster
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 60,572
Loc: new york city
Last seen: 10 minutes, 14 seconds
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: dedjam]
#7079001 - 06/22/07 08:25 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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Because government on the federal level is not going to concern itself with this until it becomes a fiery issue in individual states...that's what makes states' rights to medicinal marijuana a more realistic goal. If you're counting on the federal government to fix all your laws for you and have it trickle down instead of affecting change on the local level and working it up to the federal level, maybe you should get a nanny too.
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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.
-Erik Davis
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,229
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
#7079077 - 06/22/07 08:53 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think the push for medical marijuana is the smartest thing the pro-freedom crowd has done with respect to drug laws. Most of the citizenry currently thinks decriminalizing recreational drugs would be a horrible mistake but some of them are willing to give medical marijuana a try.
When/if marijuana eventually becomes legal under federal law and social collapse doesn't follow, the mindless drones of society will see that maybe marijuana isn't so bad after all and they'll be more willing to embrace further drug policy reform.
One step at a time.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: dedjam]
#7079271 - 06/22/07 09:55 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
gopenguins said:
Again, what makes something realistic?
You have to compare the outcomes of small-steps vs. big-leaps.
Look at the current situation in Britain. Cannabis was decriminalized suddenly, and without the intermediate steps of medical or prescription-based systems.
Now it's being blamed for everything from grisly murders to state-wide mental health decline.
You even get ridiculous stories like this one, where someone consuming nearly 1/2 an ounce of cannabis a day is characterized as a "normal user":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6734289.stm
(note, she says "20 joints a day" I'm assuming each joint is 1/2 a gram, maybe she rolls tiny joints, but I would still argue that even 20 joints a day is extreme, no matter how small)
Most of these stories are out-right bogus. For example, the claim that cannabis is the cause of a rise in mental health admissions in British hospitals is dubious at best.
Similar links have been shown between ANY substance use and schizophrenia, not just cannabis (link, link, link). And yet the minute cannabis is decriminalized people come out of the wood-work blaming it for everything.
Were Ron Paul elected President he could easily direct the Justice Department to stop prosecuting drug cases, and thus defacto end the drug war.
But if he did, substances like psilocybe-containing mushrooms or cannabis would likely be blamed for every little blip in crime, education, or health-related statistics.
I don't want to see this happen, and so I favor small steps over big ones.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: Economist]
#7079483 - 06/22/07 10:51 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ron Paul favors transitional periods as well. He says this and understands why they are necessary. When he has only a few minutes of air time, or a small space in an ad to get his major platforms across , he can't get into detail about his plans for transitions.
I don't use illegal drugs myself and have concerns about sharing the roads with 16 year olds doing 20 in a 50 who think they are going waaaaay to fast at 20.  The roadways suck as it is
However, trying and incarcerating people for pot is nonsense and a huge waste of tax payer money. Ron Paul realizes that.
I support him for other reasons myself.
I do have have concerns that a significant percentage of society may not be responsible enough with any added freedoms and liberties his Leadership would provide us. So many people have a reckless, careless and destructive streak in them, who take miles when you give them a yard.
Yet, I have issues with authority myself and tend to the pioneer spirit in general and would rather take my chances with the down sides of added freedoms, than live in a nation that continues to tighten the screws on our freedoms and liberties at ridiculous expenses to all of us.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 34,565
Last seen: 22 minutes, 44 seconds
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#7079605 - 06/22/07 11:36 AM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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I cannot support Mr. Paul because although I think I might agree with his drug policy it is utterly irrelevant for two reasons
1. President or not, he won't be able to do a fucking thing about it
2. In every other area he seems to be an utter loon
I'm also not sure if he agrees with my stance on drug laws. I know many of you here don't. I favor total legalization for all responsible adults (children and retards are excluded). No exceptions. None. I'll also be the first to kick you to the curb if you blow it. Kind of a nasty position, I know, but I'm for freedom AND personal responsibility. You cannot have either without the other. If you refuse to accept responsibility you do not deserve absolute freedom to destroy yourself. This goes for mountain climbers and motocross as well.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,196
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 4 hours, 39 minutes
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: zappaisgod]
#7079857 - 06/22/07 12:42 PM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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> I favor total legalization for all responsible adults
I'm 100% with you on this.
> President or not, he won't be able to do a fucking thing about it
Jimmy Carter tried and didn't get very far.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Ythan
٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶
Registered: 08/08/97
Posts: 14,939
Loc: NY/MA/VT Border 
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: zappaisgod]
#7080760 - 06/22/07 04:55 PM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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It's unfortunately that some people see his unconventional beliefs and label him a 'loon', while others see his slim chances and write him off as a waste of time. The fact is libertarianism has been part of American politics since the country's inception, the only loony thing is he's bringing it back to the forefront. I agree than some of his positions may be, at best, overly idealistic and unworkable in the current political climate, but he's said as much. We're voting for president here, not dictator. He helps shape policy, he doesn't chisel it in stone, and he's just one of many politicians guiding future legislation. I would argue you want someone who's a little over-the-top to ensure your interests get fairly represented against all the opposing forces (not that I'm implying Paul's over the top but he's definitely principled, passionate and dedicated).
I really doubt you'll see the UN or Medicare disappear under a Paul administration. He could spend all 8 years lobbying for it and like people have said I just don't think the country is ready yet. But what you might see is a more balanced national budget reflecting classical conservative values, less emphasis on the war on drugs, lower taxes, more states' rights... small but noticeable changes which would increase freedom and personal liberty without changing the underpinnings of American life as we know it. Whether or not Paul wins the nomination, the more attention he gets the more his ideas will be subsumed by the American public and the other candidates. It's never a waste of time. I think the people who say he's crazy and there's no point supporting him are just being impetuous, and I'm a little insulted since I share most of his views and so do a lot of other rational intelligent people.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: Ythan]
#7080797 - 06/22/07 05:04 PM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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I also don't agree with him that much and do not think he defines libertarianism. Nor you, for that matter, and there seems to be a total windmill tilting thing with you and this guy. Isolationism and moving away from "managed" trade, as the loons like to call it, is so utterly impractical as to be chemically induced.
As much as I would like to spread the doctrine, this guy isn't helping.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,196
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 4 hours, 39 minutes
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: Ythan]
#7080801 - 06/22/07 05:04 PM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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> while others see his slim chances and write him off as a waste of time
I don't see it as a waste of time, even if I know he cannot win. The fact that people are making noise lets the sheep know that they have options other than Bush or Clinton.
> I'm a little insulted by it since I share most of his views and I think they're perfectly sensible.
I try not to become insulted as everybody is entitled to an opinion, but I do agree with you... I certainly share most of his views.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,392
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: Ythan]
#7080969 - 06/22/07 05:42 PM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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Sigh.
What so many people seem not to understand here is that this guy isn't running as an Independent (i.e. Ralph Nader or Ross Perot) or as a Libertarian -- he is vying for the candidacy of the Republican Party. That is a whole 'nother ball of wax.
There is no way in hell this guy stands even the tiniest chance of winning the Republican Party's nomination. The Republicans want to WIN the presidency next time round. To do so, they have to nominate a guy who will appeal to independents, sure, but -- and this is a BIG but -- it has to be a guy the Republican base can stomach as well. That guy ain't Ron Paul.
Now, if Ron Paul were to persuade the Libertarian Party to run him as their candidate, different story. He would certainly get more votes in the presidential election than Nader and Badnarik combined got in 2004. Probably double that total or more.
But he ain't gonna be appearing on the ballot as the Republican candidate. Get used to it.
Phred
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: Phred]
#7081058 - 06/22/07 06:00 PM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul
Political positions of Ron Paul
As a Registered republican I cant find much to disagree with him on.
I like him better than the other Political Whores who have entered the Race.
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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"
We have "reckless fiscal policies"
America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.
Americans deserve better
Barack Obama
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Ythan
٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶
Registered: 08/08/97
Posts: 14,939
Loc: NY/MA/VT Border
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Re: One thing I dont understand about Shroomery and Ron Paul [Re: Phred]
#7081224 - 06/22/07 06:48 PM (4 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ron Paul did run as a Libertarian in 1988, he's getting more exposure as a Republican. zappaisgod, what is your definition of libertarianism and what the fuck is "a windmill tilting thing"?
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