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 SneezingPenis
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 What is wrong with suicide?
#6721006 - 03/28/07 03:18 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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why is there such an urge to prevent it?
why is it considered charitable or noble to "help people" through suicidal times?
I think the general concensus is that suicide is selfish, but isnt it just as selfish to hang that guilt on someone, one more thing for them to feel bad about as they have their toe on the trigger, the pills in their hand, or as they sit in their bathtub with a razor blade?
Our society, IMO, has some really fucked up ideas and views associated with death. We characterize and categorize it like eskimos do with snow. We have murder, suicide, "old age", man slaughter, justifiable homocide (war) and the memoriam inducing "accidental tragedy that extinguished his/her life far too soon". Within these categories, we have even more sub-categories.
but in the end, death is death, and how it is reached or brought about affects the living. because of our societal taboos we are affected differently by how that death is brought about. What does it matter if someone kills themselves?
To prove my point, lets take Bob for example. Bob has seriously been contemplating suicide for a while now, he doesnt enjoy life, he doesnt even like himself. Finally, Bob decides to do it, but the one person he remotely cares about has a birthday coming up, so he decides to hold off for a few days, and as he is strolling around, hoping, searching for that childish wonder he had with the world at one point, he is hit by a car and killed on the spot.
Now, the only real difference between Bobs two possible deaths was about 72 hours and a noose, but our perception of his death, and even his wake/ceremony had been completely altered.
at any moment, we can die. death is death. i think we can better understand and "cope" with it if we suspend our conditioned reactions and emotions for only a few moments to gain a window of clarity and realize that death is simply just death.
cease with the "what if's" and "I coulda done this". Bodily death is imminent for all of us, and if you are of the school of philosophy which holds all life as a unique thing to be cherished, then why waste your own living life placating conditioned responses to societal taboos?
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 MushmanTheManic
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Quote:
why is there such an urge to prevent it?
Generally, you don't want the ones you care for and love to die...
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Cloud9
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
Now, the only real difference between Bobs two possible deaths was about 72 hours and a noose, but our perception of his death, and even his wake/ceremony had been completely altered.
it's interesting to think about.
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lukeboots
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I think the reason there's such an urge to prevent it because lots of people recover from suicidal tendencies. As loving companions, why not at least try to keep them around, in case their depression / suicide urges subside someday? 
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it stars saddam
Satan
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There's nothing wrong with suicide. It's a personal decision and a form of self expression; it also helps to decrease overpopulation, and your splattered brains may someday help to fertilize a beautiful tree.
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SneezingPenis
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
why is there such an urge to prevent it?
Generally, you don't want the ones you care for and love to die...
right, but when someone says "D00d, i took like 8 vicodin the other day and got so fucking wasted" there is a highly different response than "I want to kill myself".
why isnt there an intervention and empathetic discussions when someone relates to a loved one that they dont wear seatbelts?
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lukeboots
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In the case of seatbelts, that's not a direct cry for attention - it could be simple forgetfulness, among many other things. If you unbuckle your selt belt and drive off a bridge; that's suicide. Smoking is not considered straight-forward suicide either, though it's certainly a death-wish. And people do try to prevent both of those things.. it's just not nearly as urgent as a response to hearing "I want to die, I'm going to die tonight."
edit: Also, in the instance that someone says they ate a bunch of vicodin and got wasted - I generally tell that person (I've had friends with those sorts of habits) that they are going to die, and that if they don't want to, they have to stop. Again, it's not a case of direct-suicide, just a misunderstanding of the consequence of "recreation".
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funky ass music: Planet of Dinosaurs // Rich Whiskey
Edited by lukeboots (03/28/07 03:44 PM)
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MushmanTheManic
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Quote:
right, but when someone says "D00d, i took like 8 vicodin the other day and got so fucking wasted" there is a highly different response than "I want to kill myself".
The response is probably different because suicide is associated much more closely (how much closer can you get?) to losing the person forever than popping pills is. They are both bad, but suicide is more immediate and unreversable. Killing yourself with drugs is generally a slower process and it might take longer for people to realize the druggie is in serious danger.
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 barfightlard
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The only thing wrong with it is that we still have World War 3 to look forward too.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: lukeboots] 1
#6721179 - 03/28/07 03:53 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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well, here is how I see it. If someone wants to kill themselves, then who am I to tell them that is wrong, or go off on some self-righteous crusade to enforce my beliefs and emotional attachments onto that person and try to override their life choice?
if it is just a cry for help, i choose not to indulge in that persons passive attention cravings. Either you will commit suicide or not. it is your life, im only here to pass the time with conversation and companionship until one of us dies.
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it stars saddam
Satan
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What was the point in starting this thread if you've already realized that there's nothing wrong with suicide? Just looking to spread your god-like wisdom?
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SneezingPenis
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only to act as a catalyst for personal reflection and understanding. offering an alternate viewpoint rarely seen in this forum. its a take-it-or-leave-it type thing.
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MushmanTheManic
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Quote:
If someone wants to kill themselves, then who am I to tell them that is wrong, or go off on some self-righteous crusade to enforce my beliefs and emotional attachments onto that person and try to override their life choice?
Ultimately, unless you physically restrain the person, it is their choice whether to go on living or not. I fail to see the harm in trying to persuade someone that they shouldn't end their life just yet. You don't seem to have a problem trying to convince us that society has a fucked up view of suicide, so why couldn't you argue against the views of a suicidal person? Being suicidal doesn't give you any special rights.
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SneezingPenis
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in my defense, i believe that i prefaced the statement about societies views being fucked up with IMO.
and im not against persuasion, it is everyones right to say what they want, just as it is everyone's right to not listen to what someone is saying.
I feel i am merely putting it into a different perspective, which is why this is a forum, and not a gun to your head or a law passed to prevent you from doing so.
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lukeboots
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I get what you're saying, but I don't think it does too much extra harm to a suicidal person to attempt persuading them away from death. They're already sad enough to die, saying "I'll miss you don't die" isn't going to tip them over the edge any further. I just don't see the point in apathy towards the suicidal.
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funky ass music: Planet of Dinosaurs // Rich Whiskey
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it stars saddam
Satan
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: lukeboots]
#6721312 - 03/28/07 04:26 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Most of the time a suicide threat is completely hollow and is easily exposed as desperate attention-grabbing. I know because I used to do this all the time. If someone really wanted to kill themselves they would just do it, though there are obviously exceptions.
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bigtee212
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im gonna toss this out
its because life is a bitch, its just a horrible businnes, and to be fair wed all like to lay down, relax, be done with it, but we dont, because we have all these forced "loves" and connects. that why family is what it is. anyways, deep down everyone just wants to get out, but the more people that they can get to stay in the game with them the better they feel, so when somone decides to exit, its because they almost envy them, and because they arent there anymore to comfort then or provide company on the terrible ride.
it may seem like that an obvious explaination, but i dunno, its just far enough away from the normaly accepted theory i think to work well
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it stars saddam
Satan
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: bigtee212]
#6721330 - 03/28/07 04:29 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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lukeboots
fresh futuristic
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Yeah, I know. I've dealt with hollow suicide threats. While it can be difficult to discern the attention grabbers from the honest ones, it just takes careful discretion. I don't condone blubbering at the feet of a makeup clad 15 year old every time they threaten to slit their wrists. But, if someone seriously has issues in their life that need to be worked out, they might just be honest and it wouldn't hurt a damn thing to take the time to discuss it with them.
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flower_child
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Well, I've seen a handful of suicidal guys and girls get through those times and end up feeling happy to be alive in the weeks/months/years afterwards.
It is for the reason that while I do not say "Don't do it." "You'll go to hell." "Think of your family" and so on trying to guilt trip them into living, I do encourage them to give life a little bit more time. I point out that they will die eventually no matter what, but the probability that life will get better with time is close to 100%.
Life's awesome when you're enjoying it. I like to show others that you can always find joy in the incredible gift of life. Everyone's going to feel suicidal at some point in there life. Some more than others. But there's nothing wrong with encouraging them to stick around for a little while longer and see what happens.
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Anything written above this is just a sorry attempt to seem cool to strangers. It is false information.
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kotik
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
why is there such an urge to prevent it?
perhaps those trying to prevent it are the selfish ones - they would rather convince the suicidal to put up with their agony day after day, so that they can feel better about themselves - and for "saving" a life.
just playing devil's advocate here...
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Icelander
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Good post. I agree.
why is there such an urge to prevent it?
For the same reason doctors can't say to patients you are going to die now.  Everyone's afraid of the boogy man.;)
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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BlueCoyote
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Letting that, what harms you, also kill yourself ?
For me, that's a never. Harming me is enough, then I call for battle and better die within that, before giving up and away myself.
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cellardoor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6721518 - 03/28/07 05:25 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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my two cents:
suicide is cowardly, its running away rather than confronting the "demon." it seems those that choose suicide are just unwilling to try to change their negative perspective. agony is relative. too fuckin bad that the upper-middle class people cant stand working in a cubicle, at least they have a home to return to at the end of the day, food to eat, and a bed to sleep in, not that suicide is excluded to the upper-middle class.
but dont get me wrong, its their choice, and i agree with you guys, "If someone wants to kill themselves, then who am I to tell them that is wrong, or go off on some self-righteous crusade to enforce my beliefs and emotional attachments onto that person and try to override their life choice?" the leading cause of death is life.
and theres always fate to consider...
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"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."~William Blake
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capliberty
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
why is there such an urge to prevent it?
why is it considered charitable or noble to "help people" through suicidal times?
I think the general concensus is that suicide is selfish, but isnt it just as selfish to hang that guilt on someone, one more thing for them to feel bad about as they have their toe on the trigger, the pills in their hand, or as they sit in their bathtub with a razor blade?
Our society, IMO, has some really fucked up ideas and views associated with death. We characterize and categorize it like eskimos do with snow. We have murder, suicide, "old age", man slaughter, justifiable homocide (war) and the memoriam inducing "accidental tragedy that extinguished his/her life far too soon". Within these categories, we have even more sub-categories.
but in the end, death is death, and how it is reached or brought about affects the living. because of our societal taboos we are affected differently by how that death is brought about. What does it matter if someone kills themselves?
To prove my point, lets take Bob for example. Bob has seriously been contemplating suicide for a while now, he doesnt enjoy life, he doesnt even like himself. Finally, Bob decides to do it, but the one person he remotely cares about has a birthday coming up, so he decides to hold off for a few days, and as he is strolling around, hoping, searching for that childish wonder he had with the world at one point, he is hit by a car and killed on the spot.
Now, the only real difference between Bobs two possible deaths was about 72 hours and a noose, but our perception of his death, and even his wake/ceremony had been completely altered.
at any moment, we can die. death is death. i think we can better understand and "cope" with it if we suspend our conditioned reactions and emotions for only a few moments to gain a window of clarity and realize that death is simply just death.
cease with the "what if's" and "I coulda done this". Bodily death is imminent for all of us, and if you are of the school of philosophy which holds all life as a unique thing to be cherished, then why waste your own living life placating conditioned responses to societal taboos?
I dunno, maybe you should try it out, if its all good.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
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why is there such an urge to prevent it?
Hell if I know. One person out of, what's it up to now, 6.5 billion and 200,000 more popping out every day? And if he doesn't kill himself, nature will in a few years anyway.
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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capliberty
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Diploid]
#6721652 - 03/28/07 06:01 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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its around 6.7 last I checked, I know we need more tsunamis right, them things are devastating on the populous
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Diploid
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Posts: 14,228
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 Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: capliberty]
#6721679 - 03/28/07 06:08 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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its around 6.7 last I checked
Thank the other drooling moron, the pope, whose infallible word consistently tells the giant breeding masses of starving flesh with HIV in the third world that condoms are a sin against God. 
Ain't religion grand?
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Huehuecoyotl
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Bob is better off dead. The world is a better place without him. The primary cause of most of the violence and misery in the world is unhappy people.
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Maybe there is no Heaven. Maybe this is all pure gibberish — a product of the demented imagination of a lazy drunken hillbilly with a heart full of hate who has found a way to live out where the real winds blow — to sleep late, have fun, get wild, drink whiskey, and drive fast on empty streets with nothing in mind except falling in love and not getting arrested...
--HST
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aryah
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: We characterize and categorize it like eskimos do with snow.
I know this has nothing to do with this topic, but this urban myth needs debunking, particularly since, it may have come from a patronising kind of racism.
Eskimos dont have more words for snow than say speakers of english.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
http://www.mendosa.com/snow.html
Eskimo languages have more than one word to describe snow. For example, Yupik has been estimated to have around 24 — but English has at least 40, including "berg", "frost", "glacier", "hail", "ice", "slush", "flurry", and "sleet".
and the numbers reported in various articles even in respectable newspaper have often been in hundreds. Given any lack of references for such claims, its also an interesting fact about the state of journalism today.
and this by the second link and some other papers Ive seen but cant manage to dig up is a very generous counting of eskimo snow words.
Edited by aryah (03/28/07 06:59 PM)
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Diploid
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 Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: aryah]
#6721863 - 03/28/07 06:59 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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I wouldn't know about that. I live in Miami. 
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Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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bradley
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Diploid]
#6721996 - 03/28/07 07:26 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think wrong is a stupid word in pretty much any context.
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bradley
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I shouldn't say "stupid"....more specifically I mean "wrong" seems to maintain the sole quality of confusing the subjective with the absolute. like good and bad...every experience is different; a common denominator can be found in any subset of the whole set. God I am high...
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b0red5tiff
NWO Disinformation Agent
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: bradley]
#6723176 - 03/29/07 02:16 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
What is wrong with suicide?
nothing.
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Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
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kaiowas
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6723245 - 03/29/07 03:15 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said:
Bob is better off dead. The world is a better place without him. The primary cause of most of the violence and misery in the world is unhappy people.
humans aren't the only beings on the planet. in fact, we are a small portion of what's really here on earth. Violence is inherent in everything here, from trees to insects to the ultimate battle of 'fungi vs. bacteria' <---now that's a real battle that has been raging for millions of years.
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: kaiowas]
#6723310 - 03/29/07 04:01 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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What I intended to say with those words was "willful violence, and unconscious misery". The very fact that we have weapons capable of wiping out our species testifies to the fact that unhappiness is the standard with most people.
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Maybe there is no Heaven. Maybe this is all pure gibberish — a product of the demented imagination of a lazy drunken hillbilly with a heart full of hate who has found a way to live out where the real winds blow — to sleep late, have fun, get wild, drink whiskey, and drive fast on empty streets with nothing in mind except falling in love and not getting arrested...
--HST
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kaiowas
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6723337 - 03/29/07 04:18 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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unhappiness is a standard, but I feel that it isn't THE standard.
the same technology that could blow each other up could help save each other as well.
I think the government and media has a big role to play. These are institutions that have influence over the minds of others. Just like the Catholic church used to be the domineering power, transnational corporations, governments, and the media; along with institutions like the IMF, World Bank, GATT, WTO, and the UN, are big players in the the social mess that we currently have now
influence on information is where it's at.
let me put it another way, you say it is our weapons that is a determining indicator for our mental well being. Though we may be the users of such weapons, how many people go out of their way to create such things? WHO actually creates these?
sure they may have derived from our hunter gatherer roots, but the fact still remains it the relative few who make weapons of mass destruction, and it is the many who use it. The amount of people who use it is besides the point, because like I said before, information can be processes in many forms through many different mediums. It is these mediums that have the ability to 'create' our unhappiness.
In short, happiness is just as standard as unhappiness, and the type of weapons we have should not be an indicator of which feeling is more applicable.
that's my rant 
what do you think?
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie
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Muppet
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pfft...I already KNOW that my 'opinion' is just gonna kill this thread (and I appologize for that one)
but yeah - I *personally* believe that there is NOTHING wrong with the 'idea' of suicide
(except...you know...that it (typically) affects those that genuinely care about 'us')
I (personally) feel that suicide is PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE...and that the ONLY reason it's seens as anything other then that is because 'they' simply don't understand the mindset behind all of this
...BUT AT THE SAME TIME...
I ALSO feel that the only reason there are so many people opposed to this one is because they don't 'understand the mindset' behind it
I don't (necessarily) AGREE with the thought process behind all of this...allthough...I do actually 'understand' it
but yeah - that's all a mute point I suppose
and I digress on that one 
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 Ravings of a Madman
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gregorio
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Muppet]
#6723475 - 03/29/07 05:45 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Suicide causes unimaginable grief, pain, and sorrow to the surviving family members. I suppose that would be my main problem with it.
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Muppet
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: gregorio]
#6723511 - 03/29/07 06:06 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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yeah...but in MY case anyway - I'm pretty sure no one fucken cares if I'm here or not 
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Ravings of a Madman
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: cellardoor]
#6723661 - 03/29/07 07:44 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
cellardoor said:
my two cents:
suicide is cowardly, its running away rather than confronting the "demon." it seems those that choose suicide are just unwilling to try to change their negative perspective. agony is relative. too fuckin bad that the upper-middle class people cant stand working in a cubicle, at least they have a home to return to at the end of the day, food to eat, and a bed to sleep in, not that suicide is excluded to the upper-middle class.
but dont get me wrong, its their choice, and i agree with you guys, "If someone wants to kill themselves, then who am I to tell them that is wrong, or go off on some self-righteous crusade to enforce my beliefs and emotional attachments onto that person and try to override their life choice?" the leading cause of death is life.
and theres always fate to consider...
This is a pretty black and white look at this issue. There are many reasons someone might kill themselves. Some might be cowardly and others take great courage.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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demius
broccolilocks
Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 36,619
Loc: the popcorn stadium 
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Muppet]
#6723667 - 03/29/07 07:47 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilocyberin said:
but in the end, death is death, and how it is reached or brought about affects the living
exactly
have you and I ever talked (in any detail or at all) about death, or, the absence of physical life?
Quote:
kotik said:
perhaps those trying to prevent it are the selfish ones - they would rather convince the suicidal to put up with their agony day after day, so that they can feel better about themselves - and for "saving" a life.
hit the nail on the head. It's funny because most people see suicide itself as a selfish act (depriving the family of love and memories, bringing grief/misery to other's lives, disappointing others, etc...) when yet all the reasons they give are purely selfish, yet they are too blinded by these feelings to see it as selfishness.
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vigilant_mind
unfazed
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
Loc: boco
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: demius]
#6723802 - 03/29/07 08:30 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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My dad committed suicide when I was 10. I don't blame him one bit.
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,474
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
why is there such an urge to prevent it?
A few reasons off the top of my head:
- A person's suicide causes untold heartache to the friends and family of that person; some people think it is worth attempting to prevent that.
- Threats of suicide are most often appeals for attention or assistance. It isn't always a terrible idea to provide those two things to somebody in need.
- Even those seriously considering suicide can recover from their plight and go on to lead healthy, productive lives. Some consider this an acceptable, even desirable outcome for another person.
- Suicide is an act of violence, and many people don't like violence and will try to prevent it.
- To many, suicide is a tragedy, because it is a permanent, irreversible response to a problem which is almost certainly not permanent.
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#6724127 - 03/29/07 10:11 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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A person's suicide causes untold heartache to the friends and family of that person; some people think it is worth attempting to prevent that.
I will always take exception to this one. No one causes another to suffer, that is always a choice. Some choose to suffer and some choose to understand. It's all a choice. If I had a love one who was suffering I would have to respect them as they are. If I did truly love them for themselves and not what they could do for me I would love them unconditionally and let them decide their fate and then I would hopefully rejoice in the fact that I loved them for who they were and always honored that. I would feel sad (as a choice maybe) for myself because I might miss them but as their friend I would never choose "untold suffering" as IMO that would dishonor them.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 13,918
Last seen: 4 minutes, 18 seconds
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#6724147 - 03/29/07 10:17 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Even those seriously considering suicide can recover from their plight and go on to lead healthy, productive lives. Some consider this an acceptable, even desirable outcome for another person.
and some of them go on to "taking others with them". This assumes that what you consider a healthy, productive life is better than being dead.
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gregorio
Stranger
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,797
Loc: NapTown
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Muppet]
#6724167 - 03/29/07 10:23 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Muppet said:
yeah...but in MY case anyway - I'm pretty sure no one fucken cares if I'm here or not
I think you would be surprised in just how wrong you are.
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vigilant_mind
unfazed
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
Loc: boco
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Well, I'd say that preservation of the species plays a large role in our motivation for preventing suicide.
I'm naturally inclined to believe that a healthy, stable lifestyle is certainly more pleasing than death, but that is not ubiquitously applicable. For example, if I were to be quadriplegic, with third degree burns all over my body, I would be pissed as hell if I was kept from taking my own life. Others would selfishly try to keep me here, but that's not really fair now is it?
There are most certainly circumstances that are worse than death. I consider suicide to be ok in those particular situations.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: gregorio]
#6724178 - 03/29/07 10:25 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
gregorio said:
Quote:
Muppet said:
yeah...but in MY case anyway - I'm pretty sure no one fucken cares if I'm here or not
I think you would be surprised in just how wrong you are.
Not important if others care. What is of great importance is if the poster cares.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
vigilant_mind said:
Well, I'd say that preservation of the species plays a large role in our motivation for preventing suicide.
I'm naturally inclined to believe that a healthy, stable lifestyle is certainly more pleasing than death, but that is not ubiquitously applicable. For example, if I were to be quadriplegic, with third degree burns all over my body, I would be pissed as hell if I was kept from taking my own life. Others would selfishly try to keep me here, but that's not really fair now is it?
There are most certainly circumstances that are worse than death. I consider suicide to be ok in those particular situations.
Right on! 
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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gregorio
Stranger
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,797
Loc: NapTown
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#6724187 - 03/29/07 10:28 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
A person's suicide causes untold heartache to the friends and family of that person; some people think it is worth attempting to prevent that.
I will always take exception to this one. No one causes another to suffer, that is always a choice.
You wanna bet?
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,736
Loc: Here
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
why is there such an urge to prevent it?
Generally, you don't want the ones you care for and love to die...
yeah seriously. If any thing, you should be pissed about how society enables feelings like this to occur. Narcissism within a family, parents not spending enough time with their kids.. suicide. Those who live through suicidal tendancies are usually relieved that they didn't go through it. Most of the time they're just seeking attention by the idea of suicide as a means to get that attention.
now euthanasia(however it's spelled) I think that's fucked up how the elderly are not allowed to end their lives if they so desire. Then again, what do I know. Rules and regulations may or may not work in our favor but if you have such a problem with it then why don't you go become a politician and do something about it.
--------------------
Click here to check out lineups for Magnoliafest and Springfest in Live Oak, FL
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao ~Tao Te Ching/Daodejing
"Find what you're looking for by not looking for it." ~Old Hippie Philosophy
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,474
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#6724205 - 03/29/07 10:34 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
A person's suicide causes untold heartache to the friends and family of that person; some people think it is worth attempting to prevent that.
I will always take exception to this one. No one causes another to suffer, that is always a choice. Some choose to suffer and some choose to understand. It's all a choice. If I had a love one who was suffering I would have to respect them as they are. If I did truly love them for themselves and not what they could do for me I would love them unconditionally and let them decide their fate and then I would hopefully rejoice in the fact that I loved them for who they were and always honored that. I would feel sad (as a choice maybe) for myself because I might miss them but as their friend I would never choose "untold suffering" as IMO that would dishonor them.
I congratulate you.
I agree that suffering is a choice, but let's be realistic here. Very few people have the wisdom to stoically accept the suicide of a loved one. As wise as my mother is, my suicide would undoubtedly result in her suffering, even if that suffering is technically her 'choice.'
Should theft be acceptable to me because I'm better off choosing to practise nonattachment to my possessions? A zen master may not care if somebody steals his lawnmower; so is it reasonable to expect that response from everybody?
The question I was answering was something along the lines of "Why is there such an urge to prevent suicide?"
Regardless of whose choice it is to suffer, discouraging suicide is a perfectly reasonable method of attempting to prevent a lot of pain to a lot of people. Whose responsibility it is to prevent that pain is irrelevant.
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
#6724222 - 03/29/07 10:41 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes very few people. But for the sake of humanity the rest need to make some changes. Or it's down that same old path forever.
I might present someone with my perspective and alternatives if I felt they hadn't considered them. But past that, it's none of my business.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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vigilant_mind
unfazed
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 1,717
Loc: boco
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Next year I'm hoping on getting a job working for a crisis/suicide hotline. It will be very interesting see how much that experience teaches me.
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,474
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#6724233 - 03/29/07 10:44 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Yes very few people. But for the sake of humanity the rest need to make some changes. Or it's down that same old path forever.
Hehe... certainly. But that's a whole new thread 
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Silversoul
Holon
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 22,562
Loc: Mostly harmless
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Diploid]
#6726021 - 03/29/07 06:58 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
I wouldn't know about that. I live in Miami.
They got a different kind of snow down there.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,228
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Silversoul]
#6726046 - 03/29/07 07:07 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Actually, I remember one night when I was about 12 the forecast for Miami actually called for "light snow flurries". As it happens, in the morning when I was getting ready for school, I looked out the window and voila, light snow! 
I freaked and yelled to my mom that it was snowing outside. She thought I was joking until I dragged her outside.
My brother and I stayed home from school that day. We tried to make snowballs but it was such a light dusting that just touching it melted it.
I'll never forget that day. 1977, I think it was.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,677
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 4 hours, 26 minutes
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Diploid]
#6726076 - 03/29/07 07:15 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'll start typing louder so your hearing aid can pick it up, pops.
--------------------
  
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
 
 
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,228
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Dam whipper snapper. Hrumph!
Where the hell did I put my teeth?
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Diploid]
#6726465 - 03/29/07 09:01 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Am i right to assume that people always kill them selves because they are unhappy, or discontent? Or at least theyre the only ones who can be reasoned with. If they want to die because theyre excited to meet god, or something like that, your not going to convince anyone out of it in that case.
What if someone thinks that quality of life is define purely by what you make of it, and that these suicidals are simply not catching on to this? Is this self-righteous? Ill deffinately agree with that, but I also think that everybody should consider and accept that personal happiness might be a matter that can always be achieved through personal wisdom, and that we might just not realize it. Many people believe this, and i think this is their motivation to "help" others. Personally I dont know what i think of this, but i dont think it sounds too out there.
Really, most people who are trying to stop a suicide probably arent at the point where happiness is actually a perspective that they can always assume (although many think this), so maybe these people shouldnt do this. Or maybe they should because the basic concept is correct, even though they havent attained it.
Yea, some people think theyre happy, and theyre obviously just material addicts, or your average idiot, and them convincing you to live because life is good, worth living and so on, is insulting. So happiness isnt always derived from wisdom either. But also i dont think you have to be a Buddha to realize this either. Im certainly not in the position to assume that this is the case, but i think its a valid assumption/perspective.
--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,228
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: daytripper23]
#6726561 - 03/29/07 09:24 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Reminds me of the night a few years ago when Brandon Vedas (aka Ripper) killed himself while in the Shroomery IRC channel.
--
The Sunday Times
March 25, 2007
ABOUT 100 internet chatroom users who witnessed a British man kill himself online — including some who allegedly incited him to hang himself — were this weekend being traced by detectives to be questioned over their roles in the “cyber suicide”.
Kevin Whitrick, 42, from Telford, Shropshire, killed himself after being goaded in an “insult” chatroom at the Paltalk website. One of the users is claimed to have told him: “F***ing do it. Get on with it.”
The death has highlighted concerns that some internet forums encourage people to take their lives. According to one charity which works to prevent suicide, there have been 17 deaths in the UK since 2001 which involved chatrooms or sites which give advice on suicide methods.
The Home Office is reviewing the laws over the possible prosecution of internet users who “aid, abet, counsel or procure” others to take their own lives. Campaigners want the police to investigate and prosecute those involved in encouraging online suicides.
A West Mercia police spokesman said yesterday that detectives were working with an American internet service provider to identify about 100 people who were in the chatroom when Whitrick killed himself. They will be offered counselling, but police will also want to reconstruct the online dialogue leading up to Whitrick’s death.
It has been claimed that many of those online thought that Whitrick was play-acting. But detectives will want to establish whether any of those involved were seriously inciting the father of two to kill himself.
Whitrick, who used the online name Shyguy_17_1, was filmed by his computer webcam as he prepared to hang himself. He knocked a hole in his ceiling and attached a rope around an exposed joist.
Tim Bennet, a Paltalk user, said: “We were in an insult chatroom where people trade insults and have a go at each other. A couple of people told me what he was planning to do.
“Then Shyguy_17_1 turned his camera on. You could see him smash through the ceiling, then standing on a chair he hung a rope over an uncovered joist and tied it around his neck.
“People were still having a go at him, telling him to get on with it, shouting abuse over their microphones and writing messages — but he did not respond. And then he did it.
“I initially thought that it was a fake, because you couldn’t see his feet, but then his face started turning blue. I felt sick. The mood suddenly changed, everyone was concerned for him and started talking about calling the police and trying to help him.”
Another Paltalk user, who asked not to be identified, said: “I didn’t think it was real. I have known Kevin for over four years; he always went by his user-names of R1 and ShyBoy_17_1, but he told his close friends on the sites his real name.
“I couldn’t believe he was doing this. He was on the screen shouting, ‘I’ve had it, you think I am full of s**t, not this time’. I hoped it was a stunt but I knew it was real.
“Other people were egging him on, telling him to get on with it, but I was just thinking: this is dangerous. One guy who was chatting on his microphone shouted at Kevin, ‘F***ing do it, get on with it, get it round your neck. For f**k’s sake he can’t even do this properly’.
“Others were talking to him with his old user-name R1 and telling him to stop it. Then all of a sudden it became clear it was not a hoax . . . I watched what happened and felt sick, others were claiming that he was faking it and was still stood on a chair but I knew he was dead.”
According to reports this weekend, as Whitrick died, those in the chatroom realised the seriousness of the situation. One chatroom user is reported to have said: “His face is turning purple. This guy is dead.”
Another contributor added: “Is this real?” Computer users alerted police who traced Whitrick’s address and forced their way into his apartment, but they arrived too late to save him.
Whitrick, who worked for an electrical company in Shrewsbury, was divorced from his wife Paula. The couple had twins, a boy and a girl, aged 12. In a statement, Paula said: “Kevin was a loving father and family man. He was the life and soul of the party and an extremely considerate and kind person. He will be so sadly missed by us all.”
The case raises concerns that many internet users are detached from the impact of what they say online. In a similar death in 2003, Brandon Vedas, a 21-year-old from Phoenix, Arizona, collapsed from a fatal overdose of prescription drugs after he was apparently encouraged to take the drugs by others online.
One user told Vedas: “Eat more . . . that’s not much . . . I wanna see if you survive or you just black out.”
Vedas’s brother Rich said after the death: “These people treat it like somehow it’s not the real world. They forget it’s not just words on a screen.”
In Japan, which has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, there has been a significant increase in suicide pacts arranged via the internet. “Youngsters find that on internet chat sites they can talk about the most intimate of issues with total strangers — including vague notions of wanting to die,” said Mafumi Usui, a psychology professor at Niigata Seiryo University, who has studied the phenomenon.
“Most of them aren’t serious. But say one chat participant starts suggesting concrete plans . . . that’s when the internet can encourage suicide.”
There has also been at least one case in Britain of strangers meeting on the internet and arranging a suicide. Chris Aston, 25, a Manchester University PhD student, and Maria Williams, 42, from southeast London, killed themselves in February 2005 after they met online.
Campaigners want websites giving detailed advice on suicide methods to be shut down. They also want any online users who goad on those considering suicide to be prosecuted.
Paul Kelly, a trustee of Papyrus, the charity which works to prevent suicide in young people, said: “Some of these sites which incite or give advice on suicide are horrifying. They are encouraging vulnerable people to take their own lives.”
Kelly’s own son Simon committed suicide in 2001 after researching methods of death online. Kelly has compiled details of 16 other deaths since 2001 involving the internet.
Following the government’s review of laws in the area, campaigners say they should be up-dated to make it explicit that incitement to commit suicide via websites or online is an offence. The maximum penalty would be 14 years in jail.
Many search engines, such as Google, already ensure there are prominent links to organisations such as the Samaritans when computer users search online under the word “suicide”. But there are concerns that there is no UK organisation which monitors suicide websites and collates complaints.
Web chats before dying
Kevin Whitrick. Died March 21 2007, Shropshire
Shyguy_17_1 (Whitrick): I’ve had it, you think I am full of s***, not this time.
- F****** do it, get on with it, get it round your neck. For F***’s sake he can’t even do this properly.
- Oh my God, this is serious. Someone should call the police.
- His face is turning purple. This guy is dead.
- His face is turning red. OMG (Oh My God).
- Is this real?
Brandon Vedas, 21. Died January 12 2003, Arizona
Ripper (Vedas): Tonight is a (good) night fellas...klono, methadone, restoril, inderal, weed. bottoms up.
- Dude you just drank it. Ripper: Yeah.
- Eat more Ripper: Righty hoe.
- F****** eat it. Ripper: Ripper has perished.
- You’d better not go to sleep
- Breathe
- Man don’t die
timesonline.co.uk
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,736
Loc: Here
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Diploid]
#6726596 - 03/29/07 09:40 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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holy shit, that actually made the news?
--------------------
Click here to check out lineups for Magnoliafest and Springfest in Live Oak, FL
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao ~Tao Te Ching/Daodejing
"Find what you're looking for by not looking for it." ~Old Hippie Philosophy
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crovian
try to enlighten myself
Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 1
Last seen: 10 months, 15 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Cracka_X]
#9006493 - 09/30/08 01:12 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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buddhist are actually one of the only religions where it is ok to committ suicide. but you have to do it not for spite. but for good like to feed a hungry lion. the way in which you leave this life will determine the way in which you will be reborn. thus if your all pissed off you will have a whole nother life that reflects that. and than chances of being born a human again are slim to none. they say it is like a blind turtle that surfaces every hundred years, comming up in the whole ocean inside of a whoola hoop on the surface.
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we are one with everything in a world full of nothing.
Edited by crovian (09/30/08 01:15 AM)
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: crovian]
#9006935 - 09/30/08 06:08 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think it would be good if a confirmation screen was shown before people reply to an old thread. I might request it actually.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Diploid]
#9006962 - 09/30/08 06:17 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Reminds me of the night a few years ago when Brandon Vedas (aka Ripper) killed himself while in the Shroomery IRC channel.
--
The Sunday Times
March 25, 2007
ABOUT 100 internet chatroom users who witnessed a British man kill himself online — including some who allegedly incited him to hang himself — were this weekend being traced by detectives to be questioned over their roles in the “cyber suicide”.
Kevin Whitrick, 42, from Telford, Shropshire, killed himself after being goaded in an “insult” chatroom at the Paltalk website. One of the users is claimed to have told him: “F***ing do it. Get on with it.”
The death has highlighted concerns that some internet forums encourage people to take their lives. According to one charity which works to prevent suicide, there have been 17 deaths in the UK since 2001 which involved chatrooms or sites which give advice on suicide methods.
The Home Office is reviewing the laws over the possible prosecution of internet users who “aid, abet, counsel or procure” others to take their own lives. Campaigners want the police to investigate and prosecute those involved in encouraging online suicides.
A West Mercia police spokesman said yesterday that detectives were working with an American internet service provider to identify about 100 people who were in the chatroom when Whitrick killed himself. They will be offered counselling, but police will also want to reconstruct the online dialogue leading up to Whitrick’s death.
It has been claimed that many of those online thought that Whitrick was play-acting. But detectives will want to establish whether any of those involved were seriously inciting the father of two to kill himself.
Whitrick, who used the online name Shyguy_17_1, was filmed by his computer webcam as he prepared to hang himself. He knocked a hole in his ceiling and attached a rope around an exposed joist.
Tim Bennet, a Paltalk user, said: “We were in an insult chatroom where people trade insults and have a go at each other. A couple of people told me what he was planning to do.
“Then Shyguy_17_1 turned his camera on. You could see him smash through the ceiling, then standing on a chair he hung a rope over an uncovered joist and tied it around his neck.
“People were still having a go at him, telling him to get on with it, shouting abuse over their microphones and writing messages — but he did not respond. And then he did it.
“I initially thought that it was a fake, because you couldn’t see his feet, but then his face started turning blue. I felt sick. The mood suddenly changed, everyone was concerned for him and started talking about calling the police and trying to help him.”
Another Paltalk user, who asked not to be identified, said: “I didn’t think it was real. I have known Kevin for over four years; he always went by his user-names of R1 and ShyBoy_17_1, but he told his close friends on the sites his real name.
“I couldn’t believe he was doing this. He was on the screen shouting, ‘I’ve had it, you think I am full of s**t, not this time’. I hoped it was a stunt but I knew it was real.
“Other people were egging him on, telling him to get on with it, but I was just thinking: this is dangerous. One guy who was chatting on his microphone shouted at Kevin, ‘F***ing do it, get on with it, get it round your neck. For f**k’s sake he can’t even do this properly’.
“Others were talking to him with his old user-name R1 and telling him to stop it. Then all of a sudden it became clear it was not a hoax . . . I watched what happened and felt sick, others were claiming that he was faking it and was still stood on a chair but I knew he was dead.”
According to reports this weekend, as Whitrick died, those in the chatroom realised the seriousness of the situation. One chatroom user is reported to have said: “His face is turning purple. This guy is dead.”
Another contributor added: “Is this real?” Computer users alerted police who traced Whitrick’s address and forced their way into his apartment, but they arrived too late to save him.
Whitrick, who worked for an electrical company in Shrewsbury, was divorced from his wife Paula. The couple had twins, a boy and a girl, aged 12. In a statement, Paula said: “Kevin was a loving father and family man. He was the life and soul of the party and an extremely considerate and kind person. He will be so sadly missed by us all.”
The case raises concerns that many internet users are detached from the impact of what they say online. In a similar death in 2003, Brandon Vedas, a 21-year-old from Phoenix, Arizona, collapsed from a fatal overdose of prescription drugs after he was apparently encouraged to take the drugs by others online.
One user told Vedas: “Eat more . . . that’s not much . . . I wanna see if you survive or you just black out.”
Vedas’s brother Rich said after the death: “These people treat it like somehow it’s not the real world. They forget it’s not just words on a screen.”
In Japan, which has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, there has been a significant increase in suicide pacts arranged via the internet. “Youngsters find that on internet chat sites they can talk about the most intimate of issues with total strangers — including vague notions of wanting to die,” said Mafumi Usui, a psychology professor at Niigata Seiryo University, who has studied the phenomenon.
“Most of them aren’t serious. But say one chat participant starts suggesting concrete plans . . . that’s when the internet can encourage suicide.”
There has also been at least one case in Britain of strangers meeting on the internet and arranging a suicide. Chris Aston, 25, a Manchester University PhD student, and Maria Williams, 42, from southeast London, killed themselves in February 2005 after they met online.
Campaigners want websites giving detailed advice on suicide methods to be shut down. They also want any online users who goad on those considering suicide to be prosecuted.
Paul Kelly, a trustee of Papyrus, the charity which works to prevent suicide in young people, said: “Some of these sites which incite or give advice on suicide are horrifying. They are encouraging vulnerable people to take their own lives.”
Kelly’s own son Simon committed suicide in 2001 after researching methods of death online. Kelly has compiled details of 16 other deaths since 2001 involving the internet.
Following the government’s review of laws in the area, campaigners say they should be up-dated to make it explicit that incitement to commit suicide via websites or online is an offence. The maximum penalty would be 14 years in jail.
Many search engines, such as Google, already ensure there are prominent links to organisations such as the Samaritans when computer users search online under the word “suicide”. But there are concerns that there is no UK organisation which monitors suicide websites and collates complaints.
Web chats before dying
Kevin Whitrick. Died March 21 2007, Shropshire
Shyguy_17_1 (Whitrick): I’ve had it, you think I am full of s***, not this time.
- F****** do it, get on with it, get it round your neck. For F***’s sake he can’t even do this properly.
- Oh my God, this is serious. Someone should call the police.
- His face is turning purple. This guy is dead.
- His face is turning red. OMG (Oh My God).
- Is this real?
Brandon Vedas, 21. Died January 12 2003, Arizona
Ripper (Vedas): Tonight is a (good) night fellas...klono, methadone, restoril, inderal, weed. bottoms up.
- Dude you just drank it. Ripper: Yeah.
- Eat more Ripper: Righty hoe.
- F****** eat it. Ripper: Ripper has perished.
- You’d better not go to sleep
- Breathe
- Man don’t die
timesonline.co.uk
Have we sunk so low that we can't even be responsible for ourselves and our actions? Nobody made this person do anything. Nobody convinced him to do anything. He choose, for whatever wise or stupid reason to end it. Therefore it's nobodies business but his. Let it go and do your life. We need to weed out the gene pool a little bit better IMO.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Boots
Disenchanted
Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: flower_child]
#9009798 - 09/30/08 05:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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If somebody wants to kill themselves, let them. It honestly shouldn't affect you in the long run. Sure, you'll be sad for awhile but if anything, it's a courageous move; somebody didn't like the situation they were in, so they took themselves out of it, instead of compromising with it.
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awesomebastard
Lost
Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 4,891
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I have nothing against suicide.
I have had friends confide in me and I kept my mouth shut.
Did I try and convince them otherwise? You bet.
They didn't end up going through with it but if they did I would respect it.
It's your life and no one else's.No one has the right to tell you you have to continue living.
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"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser
Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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> it's a courageous move; somebody didn't like the situation they were in, so they took themselves out of it, instead of compromising with it.
WTF? Since when is giving up more courageous than dealing with your problems? It's the complete opposite of courage, if anything.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 22,903
Loc: Street of Dreams
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No man is an island. (Hes a peninsula?)
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Boots
Disenchanted
Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9012249 - 10/01/08 06:23 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
> it's a courageous move; somebody didn't like the situation they were in, so they took themselves out of it, instead of compromising with it.
WTF? Since when is giving up more courageous than dealing with your problems? It's the complete opposite of courage, if anything.
How is suicide not a way of dealing with your problems? If anything, it's the most effective way.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Boots]
#9012253 - 10/01/08 06:24 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I like to think of it as our ace in the hole.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Boots]
#9012279 - 10/01/08 06:36 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Boots said:
Quote:
zouden said:
> it's a courageous move; somebody didn't like the situation they were in, so they took themselves out of it, instead of compromising with it.
WTF? Since when is giving up more courageous than dealing with your problems? It's the complete opposite of courage, if anything.
How is suicide not a way of dealing with your problems? If anything, it's the most effective way.
Taking your ball and going home doesn't mean you win the game. It means you're a loser.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9012281 - 10/01/08 06:38 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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By your standards you mean. I'm glad I don't think this way.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9012290 - 10/01/08 06:42 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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But suicide turns your own problems into other peoples' problems. That's why it's so selfish.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9012303 - 10/01/08 06:47 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!
People make their own problems by how they think and how they let their emotions run wild without understanding how they come about.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9012353 - 10/01/08 07:07 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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They can make their own problems that way, but having your brother commit suicide can also bring about some problems pretty damn quick, I imagine.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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awesomebastard
Lost
Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 4,891
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9012410 - 10/01/08 07:33 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
But suicide turns your own problems into other peoples' problems. That's why it's so selfish.
Ya and others that dont respect that persons choice, they arnt selfish.
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"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser
Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9012731 - 10/01/08 09:32 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
> it's a courageous move; somebody didn't like the situation they were in, so they took themselves out of it, instead of compromising with it.
WTF? Since when is giving up more courageous than dealing with your problems? It's the complete opposite of courage, if anything.
It's pretty damn courageous to throw off your natural survival instinct in favor of a complete unknown--the person committing suicide is essentially casting their life to the fates for the possibility of never existing again, getting reborn into a lower form of life, or worse yet: burning in the fires of Hell for all of eternity because suicide is a sin.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,041
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Quote:
YawningAnus said:
why is it considered charitable or noble to "help people" through suicidal times?
Maybe because at the time someone has reached suicidal thoughts theyre severely depressed & some people dont like to see other people depressed.
Some people actually enjoy seeing other people happy, weird huh?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9013043 - 10/01/08 10:56 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
They can make their own problems that way, but having your brother commit suicide can also bring about some problems pretty damn quick, I imagine.
Only if you choose to see them as problems.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9013884 - 10/01/08 02:13 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
zouden said:
> it's a courageous move; somebody didn't like the situation they were in, so they took themselves out of it, instead of compromising with it.
WTF? Since when is giving up more courageous than dealing with your problems? It's the complete opposite of courage, if anything.
It's pretty damn courageous to throw off your natural survival instinct in favor of a complete unknown--the person committing suicide is essentially casting their life to the fates for the possibility of never existing again, getting reborn into a lower form of life, or worse yet: burning in the fires of Hell for all of eternity because suicide is a sin.
It's not some D&D game where if they don't like their character they can just reroll. You deal with what you've got, and anyone who gives up just because they think they're unhappy is weak and selfish, IMHO.
Quote:
Only if you choose to see them as problems.
The same would apply to the person considering suicide. They should stop seeing their life as a series of problems.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9013903 - 10/01/08 02:18 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's not some D&D game where if they don't like their character they can just reroll. You deal with what you've got, and anyone who gives up just because they think they're unhappy is weak and selfish, IMHO.
Why does one have to keep on living, if they don't wish to? Can you perhaps bring a universal argument that proves that choosing to live is the answer to everything?
What about those who expect that their loved ones shouldn't kill themselves just because they should consider how much it would hurt them? Couldn't that be considered selfish?
Quote:
The same would apply to the person considering suicide. They should stop seeing their life as a series of problems.
Why should they do that?
--------------------
   
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9013919 - 10/01/08 02:21 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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You deal with what you've got, and anyone who gives up just because they think they're unhappy is weak and selfish, IMHO.
have you ever had to grow up to a very abusive drunk father?
not all children are immune to negative emotional states... in fact children are quite susceptible, and when abused it grows with them and becomes a constant battle imo. some would just prefer not to live, i don't blame them.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deranger]
#9013938 - 10/01/08 02:25 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree. No one is obligated to continue living. It is overstepping to think that we can sit in judgment regarding someone else's decision to end their life.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9013952 - 10/01/08 02:27 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
But suicide turns your own problems into other peoples' problems. That's why it's so selfish.
But continuing to live & wishing you were dead will not become a problem for your loved ones? How could that possibly be true? It is selfish to live, it is selfish to die. Humans are selfish, so what?
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9013995 - 10/01/08 02:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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>I agree. No one is obligated to continue living.
Agreed.
> It is overstepping to think that we can sit in judgment regarding someone else's decision to end their life.
It depends whether it's a good decision made with full understanding of the pros and cons. I will concede that there are times when it might be the best option. My issue is that most of the time it's not a good decision - it's usually young people, who haven't had the experience to know that life can get better, or they're oblivious to the effect their death would have on people around them.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9014014 - 10/01/08 02:42 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Actually, the age group with the highest rate of suicide is those 65 and older.
Either way, is it really up to us to decide whether someone's suicide was a good decision? Humans make stupid decisions all the time, and many of these decisions result in their death and/or the death of others. How is suicide any more or less acceptable than smoking cigarettes, eating fatty foods, being sedentary, speeding, driving while drunk, etc...etc...?
I think it would be terrific if the stigma against seeking counseling did not exist, and if all the counselors were highly skilled and empathic, and if parents noticed when their kids were depressed, and so on. Not only would this help the few kids who would otherwise commit suicide go on to live an enjoyable life, it might help those who would otherwise have gone on living in misery.
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9014055 - 10/01/08 02:51 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Actually, the age group with the highest rate of suicide is those 65 and older.
 wow that's a new one.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9014121 - 10/01/08 03:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Actually, the age group with the highest rate of suicide is those 65 and older.
Wow, you learn something new every day
Quote:
Either way, is it really up to us to decide whether someone's suicide was a good decision? Humans make stupid decisions all the time, and many of these decisions result in their death and/or the death of others. How is suicide any more or less acceptable than smoking cigarettes, eating fatty foods, being sedentary, speeding, driving while drunk, etc...etc...?
Those are risky behaviours, but much less risky than suicide. You can always quit smoking when you see the error of your ways.
Quote:
I think it would be terrific if the stigma against seeking counseling did not exist, and if all the counselors were highly skilled and empathic, and if parents noticed when their kids were depressed, and so on. Not only would this help the few kids who would otherwise commit suicide go on to live an enjoyable life, it might help those who would otherwise have gone on living in misery.
Amen.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9014161 - 10/01/08 03:11 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
Suicide simply puts some temporal certainty into an uncertain event.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deranger]
#9014212 - 10/01/08 03:21 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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The 45-54 year old age group had the greatest increase in suicides from 1999-2004. (20% as compared to 2% in the 15-24 year old age group.)
By the numbers, the most-likely person to commit suicide in the U.S. is a white male aged 45 or older.
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awesomebastard
Lost
Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 4,891
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9014259 - 10/01/08 03:29 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
> It is overstepping to think that we can sit in judgment regarding someone else's decision to end their life.
It depends whether it's a good decision made with full understanding of the pros and cons. I will concede that there are times when it might be the best option. My issue is that most of the time it's not a good decision - it's usually young people, who haven't had the experience to know that life can get better, or they're oblivious to the effect their death would have on people around them.
What constitutes a good decision?
Whatever it is it's an opinion not fact.
You have no idea what someone else is going through.
To call someone selfish for killing themselves is ignorance at it's worst.
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"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser
Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9014275 - 10/01/08 03:32 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Uh oh... 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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>What constitutes a good decision?
A decision made with full knowledge and after proper consideration of the options. It's the difference between good, bad, or wrong. Wrong is when you made the wrong choice. Bad is when you made an uneducated choice.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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awesomebastard
Lost
Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 4,891
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9014353 - 10/01/08 03:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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but you say that it's "wrong" to make a "bad" decision.
right wrong good and bad all sound like opinions to me.
--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser
Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Okay, well it's my opinion that people shouldn't make irreversible decisions that affect everyone around them without fully considering all the options.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9014402 - 10/01/08 03:53 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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That's an impossible standard, and would apply to many decisions besides suicide. Who would determine that someone had "considered all the options"? The individual? Society? A psychiatrist? The Pope?
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9015230 - 10/01/08 06:30 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
zouden said:
> it's a courageous move; somebody didn't like the situation they were in, so they took themselves out of it, instead of compromising with it.
WTF? Since when is giving up more courageous than dealing with your problems? It's the complete opposite of courage, if anything.
It's pretty damn courageous to throw off your natural survival instinct in favor of a complete unknown--the person committing suicide is essentially casting their life to the fates for the possibility of never existing again, getting reborn into a lower form of life, or worse yet: burning in the fires of Hell for all of eternity because suicide is a sin.
It's not some D&D game where if they don't like their character they can just reroll. You deal with what you've got, and anyone who gives up just because they think they're unhappy is weak and selfish, IMHO.
Who did you hear this from?
The dungeon master?
God is a crop that is grown in the church, much like wood is grown in a woodlot.
If I learned to harvest God and make it into slavery through the concept of suicide-as-evil I would build that machine in an instant.
Quote:
Quote:
Only if you choose to see them as problems.
The same would apply to the person considering suicide. They should stop seeing their life as a series of problems.
Or maybe people should stop realizing that they know how other people should think?
Just a thought though. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9015299 - 10/01/08 06:44 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Okay, well it's my opinion that people shouldn't make irreversible decisions that affect everyone around them without fully considering all the options.
Okay, well it's my opinion that every decision is irreversible and they all affect everyone around them and it's impossible to consider all the options.
So stop making so many irreversible decisions.
STOP IT.
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9015862 - 10/01/08 08:47 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Those are risky behaviors, but much less risky than suicide.
How is suicide risky? Are you saying that if you don't do suicide you won't be dead? We all are on the way to dying and ultimately it makes little difference when.
Look at all the long dead broken hearted people who were devastated by the death of someone dear. They don't care anymore and that's because it really doesn't matter except subjectively and that is a choice. I think that's a good thing. Each person will come an go. The how and where only matter in your mind and you get to decide that. But that's as important as it gets IMO.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9016788 - 10/02/08 12:23 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Isn't suicide all about making the decision that your own suffering is more important than that of others? What if you're wrong?
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Boots
Disenchanted
Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9017291 - 10/02/08 06:55 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Isn't suicide all about making the decision that your own suffering is more important than that of others? What if you're wrong?
How can rational self-interest be wrong?
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden] 1
#9018630 - 10/02/08 01:30 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Isn't suicide all about making the decision that your own suffering is more important than that of others? What if you're wrong?
Then you must go to hell.
It's the only reasonable thing that could happen.
But really- if you commit suicide to relieve your own suffering you successfully prove that it was more important than the suffering of others from your perspective.
I should also mention that suicide doesn't have to be about ending your own suffering, and it can be about ending the suffering of others. There's not enough food to feed every mouth, one less mouth brings it that much closer. Elderly Inuit men would leave on ice-flows to die voluntarily. Suicide can also be about honor, and enacting a concept stronger than life (see Seppuku).
We have just been bred to fear death at pain of eternal torture. If we learn that we can transcend life and death with choice then our masters might have to find a better hamster wheel than God and The Dollar. That's all.
If you look at our hospitals filled with rich elderly who do not know where they and survive solely by the virtue of taking 42 pills per day; and you look at third world countries where children cannot get the 2 pills per day they need to survive-
you might start to understand there are much more selfish things than suicide on the wheel of life.
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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But that's not the kind of suicide I was talking about - euthanasia is a separate issue, and one I'm strongly in favour of.
It's not suicide itself that I oppose. It's people being dicks. And I think in a lot of cases, suicide is a particularly dickish move.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9018810 - 10/02/08 02:24 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Because you owe people your life? Even if you are utterly miserable, a complete failure, in constant physical and emotional pain, etc... it is better for those who love you that you remain alive?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9018849 - 10/02/08 02:35 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
But that's not the kind of suicide I was talking about - euthanasia is a separate issue, and one I'm strongly in favour of.
It's not suicide itself that I oppose. It's people being dicks. And I think in a lot of cases, suicide is a particularly dickish move.
Possibly true. But I'd rather be able to have control over my own destiny than ultimately defer to what other people may or may not think.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9019020 - 10/02/08 03:13 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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That's reasonable. But I think it should continue to be stigmatised and heavily discouraged (except in cases like euthanasia) .
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9019235 - 10/02/08 04:01 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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That doesn't stop people from killing themselves. If our natural instinct to survive isn't enough to stop them, social censure certainly isn't going to do it!
If it was not heavily stigmatised and discouraged, perhaps those who are "on the fence" about it might feel more comfortable talking to someone about their despair. As it stands, people who experience despair & consider suicide are more likely to hide their feelings until they are overwhelmed. The fact that they are hiding such a big secret probably makes them feel very alone & isolated from the rest of humanity.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9019250 - 10/02/08 04:04 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
But that's not the kind of suicide I was talking about - euthanasia is a separate issue, and one I'm strongly in favour of.
It's not suicide itself that I oppose. It's people being dicks. And I think in a lot of cases, suicide is a particularly dickish move.
I find this ironic.
I have a close friend who began acting like more of a dick as he got older. He met stiff opposition from most of his friends, only me and very few others still showed him understanding (coincidentally he wasn't a dick to us).
People opposed him being a dick so much that he took a bottle of pills and cut his wrists.
His body was too strong.
I've told him I respected him for his decision, and that I believe it was his right. He and I have always connected well, he seems much healthier when he has a friend who doesn't judge him than when he is opposed for being a dick.
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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I wonder, if he had killed himself, would his friends regret not being nicer to him? I don't know the situation, of course, but I think a lot of the time people are shocked when someone commits suicide and wish they could have done something that would have made him change his mind. Very few people accept it as "the right choice for him".
Veritas: great post, as usual
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9022633 - 10/03/08 07:17 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I am not sure how much they would have regretted how they were, and how much they would have regretted how he was. Would it not be in favor of his motives if they did regret how they were?
Most people would not accept it as 'the right choice' for someone else because most people seem to like to assign blame rather than take responsibility, and it is hard to blame a corpse.
To mistreat someone to the point of suicide and then explain to them that there is 'more to life' is simply to deny the extent of their pain for your own benefit. (Live with it, get better, don't do this to me.)
If someone is going to commit suicide out of pain, showing them honest understanding and respect for their position is the compassionate way to treat them. Emotionally indulging them and pretending things are better than they are is simply playing with the neural circuits you would consider broken.
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Jackenobi
Hermes
Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 1,355
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
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i dont know about suicide, but maybe those tired of their human life should court death
make death a maiden
no need to be so vulgar and direct now is there?
--------------------
read books
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,677
Loc: Red Panda Village
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Jackenobi]
#9022979 - 10/03/08 09:20 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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What are you suggesting, that they contract a terminal illness or something? 
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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i believe suicide is wrong because it is throwing away the one gift that is undeniable to everyone. the opportunity to exist. the opportunity to have happiness, stress, love, anger, the OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE OPPORTUNITIES.
to throw away the opportunity, rather than make the best of it, is truly taking this magical universe of infinite possibilities fore granted (to say the least).
IMO.
--------------------
Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness. 
 9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9023328 - 10/03/08 10:51 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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A gift? What are you talking about?
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Jackenobi
Hermes
Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 1,355
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: fireworks_god] 1
#9023478 - 10/03/08 11:38 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
What are you suggesting, that they contract a terminal illness or something?
no just get really into danger sports
...for example
for as a wise man once said - its better to burn out, than to fade away
in case you were wondering that was the kurgan from highlander
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read books
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9023483 - 10/03/08 11:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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uh YEAH.
anyone who has eaten Psilocybin mushrooms KNOWS that the Psilocybin experience is a gift, to be self-conscious and aware of our own thoughts is a gift, to be ALIVE is a gift, and the fact that there is even STUFF, aka MATTER, floating around out there is a gift.
there could be NOTHING, but instead there is SOMETHING. so if you don't believe that life is a gift, then maybe you should go eat some mushrooms
i like to ask myself these 3 questions:
1. Why is there something, Matter, instead of nothing? 2. How did some of that matter acquire the property of life? 3. How did some of that life evolve self-consciousness, the ability to be aware of our own thoughts, emotions, and actions?
those 3 questions remind me that existence is a gift. this universe is a gift. this FORUM is a gift.
need more explanation?
--------------------
Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
Edited by PookztA (10/03/08 11:42 AM)
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9023496 - 10/03/08 11:44 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why is it necessarily a "gift" that we exist, that we have experiences, that the Universe exists? A gift from whom? What if this all simply happened, and is continuing to happen, for no particular reason besides the fact that it could happen?
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Jackenobi
Hermes
Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 1,355
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9023531 - 10/03/08 11:55 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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re self-aware consciousness
had a weird moment recently watching a documentary called 'life after man' (try tv-links etc if interested...)
the show goes through the stages of nature reclaiming the planet if man suddenly ceased to exist but all else - his marks etc - remained intact at first.
i think it said 1000 years and there wouldnt be a trace left to the naked eye... or something
aaaaanyway, it was talking a little about the unique experience of a consciousness aware of itself... the narrative over a pack of wolves running in lush vegetation...
weirded me right out
all so beautiful, but creatures of instinct, without reflection and self appraisal, without man's (speculatively) unique awareness... it seemed indeed nothing at all could exist. space, the cosmos, the earth, everything.
then i remembered the adage, if a tree falls in the woods...
wow i had a right oooohhh moment
it was great
it is a gift.
so anyway, thanks for your patience, back to the suicide chat
ps. not being selfish is a terrible reason for not committing suicide - the endless brilliance of existence is a better one... was all it took for me to dismiss any suicidal thoughts before they ever arose, no matter what i felt and suffered
life is spectacular
if you can't relate listen to paul mccartney and wings hits until you get it
pps. im serious
--------------------
read books
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9023532 - 10/03/08 11:55 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PookztA said:
uh YEAH.
anyone who has eaten Psilocybin mushrooms KNOWS that the Psilocybin experience is a gift, to be self-conscious and aware of our own thoughts is a gift, to be ALIVE is a gift,
Wow, look, I have eaten shrooms and I don't KNOW that! 
How do you explain THAT?
A gift from whom, may I ask?
Quote:
and the fact that there is even STUFF, aka MATTER, floating around out there is a gift.
I suppose that even the fact that we fart is a gift, right? 
Quote:
there could be NOTHING, but instead there is SOMETHING. so if you don't believe that life is a gift, then maybe you should go eat some mushrooms
This is not an argument that deserves any bit of attention in a debate oriented forum.
Quote:
i like to ask myself these 3 questions:
1. Why is there something, Matter, instead of nothing? 2. How did some of that matter acquire the property of life? 3. How did some of that life evolve self-consciousness, the ability to be aware of our own thoughts, emotions, and actions?
What does this have to do with what we were talking about and HOW to you think this will show in any way that life is a gift?
Quote:
those 3 questions remind me that existence is a gift.
I am sorry, I just don't see it there... how exactly (step by step) do these questions "remind" you that life is a gift?
Quote:
this universe is a gift. this FORUM is a gift.
need more explanation?
Yes, I do! 
I need the explanation that I have initially asked for and didn't receive yet.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Jackenobi
Hermes
Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 1,355
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9023540 - 10/03/08 11:57 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Why is it necessarily a "gift" that we exist, that we have experiences, that the Universe exists? A gift from whom? What if this all simply happened, and is continuing to happen, for no particular reason besides the fact that it could happen?
because life is what you make of it?
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read books
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doja42
Stoney Baby
Registered: 07/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: Kennesaw, Ga
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Jackenobi]
#9023578 - 10/03/08 12:05 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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The only reason I dint agree with suicide is because most of the time the problems that people try to escape with suicide are problems that we impose on ourselves because we believe that we aren't living the way that we should. Every time I have felt like I couldn't go on, I take a toke or two and and feel ELATED to be alive! When I do shrooms or toke, it makes me realize that something so simple can take away all these superficial problems that we have.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Jackenobi]
#9023585 - 10/03/08 12:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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And what if one comes to the realization that indulging yourself into this kind of fantasy in more detrimental than beneficial?
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: doja42] 1
#9023597 - 10/03/08 12:11 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
doja42 said:
The only reason I dint agree with suicide is because most of the time the problems that people try to escape with suicide are problems that we impose on ourselves because we believe that we aren't living the way that we should. Every time I have felt like I couldn't go on, I take a toke or two and and feel ELATED to be alive! When I do shrooms or toke, it makes me realize that something so simple can take away all these superficial problems that we have.
And this is great that you can transcend the things that sometimes become problematic for you. 
However, it is quite obvious that, for some reason, some people can't do that, or otherwise they wouldn't decide that it's best for them to end their lives.
Why should these people keep on living, just because other people tell them that they could get over whatever their problems are?
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Jackenobi]
#9023599 - 10/03/08 12:11 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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im not going to answer the "WHOM" questions because i have no clue. it could be a natural process. it could be a "God". whatever the reason... something put this into motion, "the ball is rolling", and you are here, and you have to deal with it.
now, how to deal with it. you HAVE to chose of these options... otherwise you can just ignore thinking about the topic:
1. You can believe that its a curse, that we are stuck here because we have to be...
2. or you can believe that its a gift, that the fact that we are even able to open our eyes, breathe air, and hold a conversation, which there is MUCH BENEFIT to doing (i.e. laughing, happiness, smiling, learning new things, meeting new people). In order to believe its a gift, you do not have to identify the giver of the gift. To make this more understandable, perhaps swap the word GIFT with OPPORTUNITY. an opportunity is a situation where you have a chance to do something.... we are ALL in a situation where we have a chance to do something. we can fart, which is fun... but we can also tell jokes, experience different life forms such as insects and bacteria, experience happiness just by LOOKING at something or THINKING about something...
damnit... those things i just listed are only examples of how we could put this gift / opportunity to good use... they do not explain why i believe it is a gift / opportunity.
HERE IT IS: The fact that we can experience joy out of thin air, positive, pleasurable sensations such as happiness, love, humor, truth, honesty, respect, etc... the fact that those things are just floating around, waiting for us to initiate them... says to me that this is a gift / opportunity. if this was a prison of some sort, there wouldn't be so many awe-inspiring things around. the fact that in the vast, empty vacuum of space, we are here... on this chunk of rock that is floating around a giant fusion reactor (the sun), which in turn is revolving around a giant black hole.........
this universe is far too infinite, far too complex, far too amazing, that we could all just be "lucky" or "unlucky" to be here, experiencing what we are experiencing. the fact that i get to talk to intelligent people like you guys, who actually care about what i am saying, is a gift. and the fact that you are just a few small gifts within a much larger gift that bears INFINITE gifts, every moment, its hard to believe that you are even questioning it. i hope that you are only questioning to understand my position in more detail, and not because you for some reason might believe that this infinite playground of ever-unfolding possibilities is anything less than a gift.
we have the opportunity to change peoples lives, to help people take more out of their days, and i really just wanna help as many people as i can along the way. simply 'passing through life', or worse yet, suicide, is throwing away an opportunity to brighten someones day. i dont ever want to experience knowing that i could have prevented someone from throwing away their opportunity by helping them to get more outta life. and the fact that i have that opportunity to help others, is a GIFT.
--------------------
Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9023611 - 10/03/08 12:14 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PookztA said:
uh YEAH.
anyone who has eaten Psilocybin mushrooms KNOWS that the Psilocybin experience is a gift, to be self-conscious and aware of our own thoughts is a gift, to be ALIVE is a gift, and the fact that there is even STUFF, aka MATTER, floating around out there is a gift.
there could be NOTHING, but instead there is SOMETHING. so if you don't believe that life is a gift, then maybe you should go eat some mushrooms
i like to ask myself these 3 questions:
1. Why is there something, Matter, instead of nothing? 2. How did some of that matter acquire the property of life? 3. How did some of that life evolve self-consciousness, the ability to be aware of our own thoughts, emotions, and actions?
those 3 questions remind me that existence is a gift. this universe is a gift. this FORUM is a gift.
need more explanation?
I need an explanation of how you know there will not be an even greater 'gift' awaiting our experience through the doorway of death.
I also need an explanation of how life can be a gift to a child who is blessed to be born in Iraq, lives on the verge of starvation in terrible suffering for 5 years, and is accidentally blown up by an American soldier.
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9023629 - 10/03/08 12:19 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PookztA said:
those 3 questions remind me that existence is a gift. this universe is a gift. this FORUM is a gift.
I agree with this viewpoint, although gift seems a bit of a loaded word in that it implies someone gave you it.
I do think we should be thankful that we're here right now; that we exist; and that we're capable of experiencing such feelings as love, pleasure, and the psychedelic experience of Oneness with the Universe as opposed to having never existed to begin with.
Rather than ranting at the fact that we're going to die someday and not have the opportunity to live forever, we should instead be thankful for the "gift" that we were here in the first place. This doesn't imply that there's a reason for why we exist; simply that existence and all the emotions, feelings, and experiences of life are vastly preferable to having not lived at all.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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i never said DEATH i bad, i said self-initiated death, AKA SUICIDE, is bad.
and don't act like starving babies get any less out of life then you do.
for one, they arent bitching about life. they are way more thankful to breathe air and drink water than you or I ever will be able to comprehend. the simple act of eating a small meal, because of its rarity in the child's life, may be the equivalent of 10,000 orgasms which we may experience.
each person has their unique place, and a unique opportunity to take just as much out of life as the next person. it just turns out that many of us, like me and you, are spoiled, so we stop appreciating things like food, shelter, and water, as much as the starving child. this is why we must use our rich foundations to reach further than that child. the child is happy just eating food and drinking water. you and I however, should be making bigger changes, such as influencing the way people think so that there are less and less starving children.
if we killed ourselves, we wouldn't be helping anyone...
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Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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Jackenobi
Hermes
Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 1,355
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9023636 - 10/03/08 12:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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it all boils down to a matter of choice i suppose
one may feel elated at life more often than otherwise
one may feel contrary
i say choice but maybe i should say perception
i can't really answer directly because i don't regard an overflowing loving heartmind as fantasy
i dont see the point in encouraging desolation, which is what the counter-arguments to life as gift suggest to me.
not that i;ve never fed from the misery tree until i was thoroughly sated. though even then i am happy with the gift, the opportunity to experience moribund hope, springing from the mire. too much of this can be a crutch and then thorn in the side in my experience.
interestingly, i have said 'I' a lot in this post
just goes to show how subjective the arguments are getting i suppose
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read books
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9023642 - 10/03/08 12:22 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
PookztA said:
those 3 questions remind me that existence is a gift. this universe is a gift. this FORUM is a gift.
Rather than ranting at the fact that we're going to die someday and not have the opportunity to live forever, we should instead be thankful for the "gift" that we were here in the first place. This doesn't imply that there's a reason for why we exist; simply that existence and all the emotions, feelings, and experiences of life are vastly preferable to having not lived at all.
this guy is a gift. and so are the rest of ya! 
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Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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doja42
Stoney Baby
Registered: 07/22/08
Posts: 59
Loc: Kennesaw, Ga
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9023651 - 10/03/08 12:23 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
doja42 said:
The only reason I dint agree with suicide is because most of the time the problems that people try to escape with suicide are problems that we impose on ourselves because we believe that we aren't living the way that we should. Every time I have felt like I couldn't go on, I take a toke or two and and feel ELATED to be alive! When I do shrooms or toke, it makes me realize that something so simple can take away all these superficial problems that we have.
And this is great that you can transcend the things that sometimes become problematic for you.
However, it is quite obvious that, for some reason, some people can't do that, or otherwise they wouldn't decide that it's best for them to end their lives.
Why should these people keep on living, just because other people tell them that they could get over whatever their problems are?
You cant toke or shroom and realize that there is something bigger than your petty problems? I dint mean that do sound as harsh as it does, but the people I know that mope and cant get over their problems wouldn't be caught dead on this website. They turn to a church or a god to tell them exactly how to live their life to make them happy, which to me is the opposite way to be happy. You have to decide for you what makes you happy, and I feel that pot relaxes you just enough to do that without caring what other people think.
To me it seems like these rules on how you should live life are preventing you from actually just living in the moment. For example, I am a pot head (aka drug addict) a 5th year college Junior and dint go to church. Some people would feel like they are a failure because they aren't living up to some self imposed ideal. I however, choose to spend my short time here being as happy as I can doing what ever it is that makes me happy.
If people want to end their life thats their choice, I'm just saying that if suicidal people smoke and then still want to die, maybe it is best for them. If pot cant make you happy, I dint know what will!
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Jackenobi]
#9023663 - 10/03/08 12:25 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jackenobi said:
it all boils down to a matter of choice i suppose
you are right friend... i just like to encourage people, or rather, help them, to become more aware of their situation, so that we can all make the choice to help others to grow so that they can help others... as often as possible.
the domino effect: inspire 2, he inspires 2, they each inspire 2, etc. etc. etc. and 2 is a small number
hell, this discussion may have already saved a few kids lives! who knows how many of us will some day adopt a starving child, or donate thousands of dollars to a "feed the children" organization, or who knows what!
i love you guys!
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Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9023717 - 10/03/08 12:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PookztA said:
im not going to answer the "WHOM" questions because i have no clue. it could be a natural process. it could be a "God". whatever the reason... something put this into motion, "the ball is rolling", and you are here, and you have to deal with it.
now, how to deal with it. you HAVE to chose of these options... otherwise you can just ignore thinking about the topic:
I do not HAVE TO believe one of those things...
I have to believe you said that I have to (unless I want to create some very complex psychological routines in myself, and at that point I would still believe this, just much more indirectly)
Quote:
1. You can believe that its a curse, that we are stuck here because we have to be...
2. or you can believe that its a gift, that the fact that we are even able to open our eyes, breathe air, and hold a conversation, which there is MUCH BENEFIT to doing (i.e. laughing, happiness, smiling, learning new things, meeting new people). In order to believe its a gift, you do not have to identify the giver of the gift. To make this more understandable, perhaps swap the word GIFT with OPPORTUNITY. an opportunity is a situation where you have a chance to do something.... we are ALL in a situation where we have a chance to do something. we can fart, which is fun... but we can also tell jokes, experience different life forms such as insects and bacteria, experience happiness just by LOOKING at something or THINKING about something...
So where do you go when you die?
It must be a place where there are no conversations, and there is no laughing, and no opportunity.
I have never been there before personally, I would like to hear more.
Quote:
damnit... those things i just listed are only examples of how we could put this gift / opportunity to good use... they do not explain why i believe it is a gift / opportunity.
HERE IT IS: The fact that we can experience joy out of thin air, positive, pleasurable sensations such as happiness, love, humor, truth, honesty, respect, etc... the fact that those things are just floating around, waiting for us to initiate them... says to me that this is a gift / opportunity. if this was a prison of some sort, there wouldn't be so many awe-inspiring things around. the fact that in the vast, empty vacuum of space, we are here... on this chunk of rock that is floating around a giant fusion reactor (the sun), which in turn is revolving around a giant black hole.........
this universe is far too infinite, far too complex, far too amazing, that we could all just be "lucky" or "unlucky" to be here, experiencing what we are experiencing. the fact that i get to talk to intelligent people like you guys, who actually care about what i am saying, is a gift. and the fact that you are just a few small gifts within a much larger gift that bears INFINITE gifts, every moment, its hard to believe that you are even questioning it. i hope that you are only questioning to understand my position in more detail, and not because you for some reason might believe that this infinite playground of ever-unfolding possibilities is anything less than a gift.
we have the opportunity to change peoples lives, to help people take more out of their days, and i really just wanna help as many people as i can along the way. simply 'passing through life', or worse yet, suicide, is throwing away an opportunity to brighten someones day. i dont ever want to experience knowing that i could have prevented someone from throwing away their opportunity by helping them to get more outta life. and the fact that i have that opportunity to help others, is a GIFT.
Are you sure that joy comes from thin air?
Would you believe this if you had a gun in your face for your entire life? If you watched your father shot, and your mother gang raped?
Life is infinite; and infinitely subjective. I do not claim to know what the 'right' thing to do with it is, even with ending it being one of the choices.
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9023719 - 10/03/08 12:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Or, you have the third option: cutting the bull shit, stop lying to yourself, and realize that the truth of the matter is that you don't know 
There! What's wrong with simply admitting that we don't have a clue about what life is and how did we end up existing?
Your post suggests that, if one stops believing that life is wonderful gift that has to be enjoyed, one would live a life of misery and despair, yet I see nothing to show that this is true. In fact, there are people who live their lives being aware of the things they don't know about the origins life, and still are perfectly happy, maybe even more so than those who blindly believe in something that can be proven as fake at any second, and as a result of all that realize that they have based their entire lives on a mountain of lies and delusion.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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MANGO:
1. you dont have to believe one of those things, you can ignore them, but as soon as u stray from neutral.. you are either believing that lifes a good thing, an opportunity, perhaps even a gift..
or if you stray towards the negative, you begin to classify it as a prison, a curse, a 'purgatory', or whatever.
2. its not necessary to explain my opinion on after life, even though i believe in it. i will simply introduce it, and let you think about it on your own. this is a discussion about whether suicide is wrong, and why we think its wrong... and my justification of why i think its wrong is because to me, it is like "throwing away an opportunity to do something good for yourself and for others"
i believe in after life because we are ultimately made of energy, and energy cannot be destroyed. it can be rearranged, dispersed, manipulated, changed in form, but it cannot be destroyed. We are energy.
i believe that your after life is greatly a product of what you do on the planet while you are here. although no one will experience a negative after life, it is very possible that those who cut their time short on this planet, selfishly removing themselves from the planet rather than helping themselves or helping others, may experience a lesser quality after life. still a good one, but perhaps, say, if you do enough good deeds here on earth, that when we pass on, we may be given the ability to fly! but suicide people wouldnt get that ability... although they still would be able to run very fast... haha jk. these are just humorous ways of me partially demonstrating my beliefs to you, so please dont get offended by me not taking the after life discussion too seriously.
now enough on after life...
3. i did not literally mean that happiness comes out of THIN air. i meant that someone can find happiness in nearly anything. even depressed individuals who are severely negative due to chemical imbalances and deficiencies in their nervous system still find pleasure in common tasks such as eating, bathing, having sex, etc. but STILL, i will go further when i say that those individuals are not stuck in their ways. thanks to the powerful, mind-imprinting mental states that can be achieved by consuming appropriate psychedelics, these people may be opened up to a new way of thinking about the world.... and while thinking in that altered way, if you play them some uplifting classical music, or uplifting ambient psychedelic music, they may experience the most intense form of pleasure that they had ever experienced, instantly motivating their nervous system to start producing more of whatever neurotransmitter they were previously lacking on.
depression is being treated with entheogenic compounds and MDMA, post traumatic stress disorder is also being treated with those compounds, Obsessive compulsive disorder is ALSO being treated with these compounds, etc. etc. etc.
i dont believe in suicide, because if someone kills themself before i have a chance to get to them, or before YOU have a chance to get to them, that is one less person that is on this planet to enrich our experience, to enrich our community, and to inspire other potential suicide-partakers to think twice before throwing it away.
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Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: doja42]
#9023753 - 10/03/08 12:47 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
doja42 said:
If pot cant make you happy, I dint know what will!
Yes, but this is still a personal view, and maybe you need to realize that even if pot makes you happy, it just won't do the same thing for others. Other people will find happiness in who knows what else, and it doesn't mean that maybe it's best for them to die. Some people might even provide their own happiness from the inside, without needing pot or a girlfriend or a dog to do it for them.
Where I'm getting at is that we're in no way able to determine what's best for others, and that also we're not in the position to measure how "good" one's decision was.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9023763 - 10/03/08 12:49 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Or, you have the third option: cutting the bull shit, stop lying to yourself, and realize that the truth of the matter is that you don't know
dude, im not bull shitting, i am just perceiving life differently than you.
its not about KNOWING what it is... its about getting more out of it.
if you are satisfied with what you are getting, then there is no need to alter your perception of what we have. in my opinion, you are a happy and awesome person, and theres no need for you to listen to what i have to say any more seriously than just holding this friendly conversation.
i am not telling you what to believe, i am telling you what I believe, so take it for what you will.
secondly, im not talking about ORIGINS of existence at all friend, im just simply telling you that i choose to think of existence as a gift and as an opportunity, rather than something i am "stuck with". that is alll, it doesnt have to go any deeper than that, ok?
are you cool with my response? i do not want to offend you, and sorry if i did... although i dont see how i could have. 
and as for helping other people with things like marijuana, sure they dont work for EVERYONE, but they work for MANY people when combined with positive conversation and good music for example... so it is not a futile effort to try and help people be happier using things like marijuana... its actually a very good thing, but at the same time, we cant be ignorant and just assume that marijuana will fix just anyones problems.
we are all right here, no one is disagreeing i believe!
--------------------
Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9023861 - 10/03/08 01:14 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I completely understood what you were saying from the start and I have nothing against your personal opinion. You are absolutely free to believe whatever you want and live your life the way you choose.
I was simply showing you that, until now, reality doesn't show any signs that life is a gift or anything like that. This is only because we are in a debate forum, and you sustained that it is wrong to take your life because it is a gift. By demonstrating that your premise had no base in reality, I also demonstrated that your conclusion was also erroneous. Other than that I am in way in the position to tell you what to believe and why to not believe in something.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9023923 - 10/03/08 01:28 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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fine ill rephrase:
it is wrong to take your life because there are agents of change, like psilocybin mushroom shamanic rituals, and people that can help. not seeking for help, and choosing to end your life instead, is the easy and selfish way out. if that person chose to seek change instead, they may be able to benefit other potential suicide victims by sharing their "new found appreciation for life" with those potential victims.
both are solutions to problems, but the latter results in saving others from having to deal with more stress and problems, rather than just fixing / running from one's OWN problems.
is that better?
--------------------
Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9023927 - 10/03/08 01:29 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why is life preferable to not-life?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9023951 - 10/03/08 01:35 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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because in life you have the opportunity to help others, where as in 'not-life', we have no idea what it consists of, if anything...
im about to leave this topic of conversation because few people are putting out actual points, rather, they are just asking questions to try and expose holes in my points, even though my points are still valid, just not as thorough as some of you might prefer...
theres no right answer, its subjective of course, but in all honesty, i have portrayed a much better justification of my subjective opinion than most other recent topic replyers, whom are in support of suicide, have given of theirs.
so speak up, tell me why suicide is so good, tell me why its the best way to deal with depression / problems, as opposed to seeking help, or waiting around for help (for those that are unable / unwilling to seek it)?
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Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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zannennagara
Found in Space
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 424
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9024163 - 10/03/08 02:10 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think someone who has committed suicide can and does help others more than you're suggesting.
They can help other people in difficult times by validating the suffering, and showing in the most concrete way imaginable that there is a common urge to escape the woes of life and seek the "or not to be" half of the Hamlet soliloquy - the suicide shows that one is not alone in those feelings. Telling a despairing person that life is a gift will alienate them much more than showing them that others have despaired too and sought a way out.
It's not so easy to separate euthanasia from other suicide as it seems - if it's noble for an elderly person to help a family struggling to support him or her, why not for young people who also have a hand in family troubles, whether through a negative "dragging down" or expensive and ineffective psychiatric treatments? Sure, young lives have an opportunity to change, but miracle cures or cheaper painkillers could arrive for the elderly too.
Suicide is maybe the best proof of free will we have, even if you believe free will is an illusion, because it shows a person has the capability to counteract the strongest unconscious drive there is - were it deterministic, it still makes the world a more interesting place. Living with the possibility of death at any moment - not just from external factors - can free people from a good deal of fear.
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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9024367 - 10/03/08 02:52 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PookztA said:
because in life you have the opportunity to help others, where as in 'not-life', we have no idea what it consists of, if anything...
So why is helping others preferable to not-helping them?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9024430 - 10/03/08 03:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PookztA said:
fine ill rephrase:
it is wrong to take your life because there are agents of change, like psilocybin mushroom shamanic rituals, and people that can help. not seeking for help, and choosing to end your life instead, is the easy and selfish way out. if that person chose to seek change instead, they may be able to benefit other potential suicide victims by sharing their "new found appreciation for life" with those potential victims.
Mushrooms and shamanic rituals don't have the same effect on everybody.
Why should you insist on someone to "seek for help", when all the help there is comes from inside, and from personal motivation? And even of you might be the impression that mushrooms are responsible for one's change of attitude, it is the person itself that's responsible for it, even though it might ave been influenced in a way by a psychedelic experience.
Since that motivation is completely gone in people who choose to end their lives, why make things even more difficult for them? Couldn't the same "selfishness" (even though everything we do is for selfish reasons, even if we choose to solve our problems instead of running away from them) be attributed to those who would prefer to have someone around, even though they know they're not happy?
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9024436 - 10/03/08 03:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PookztA said:
MANGO:
1. you dont have to believe one of those things, you can ignore them, but as soon as u stray from neutral.. you are either believing that lifes a good thing, an opportunity, perhaps even a gift..
or if you stray towards the negative, you begin to classify it as a prison, a curse, a 'purgatory', or whatever.
I classify classification as a way to prevent experience from being recalled as it was. I classify positive and negative as labels.
How contradictory, for me to classify such things.
Quote:
2. its not necessary to explain my opinion on after life, even though i believe in it. i will simply introduce it, and let you think about it on your own. this is a discussion about whether suicide is wrong, and why we think its wrong... and my justification of why i think its wrong is because to me, it is like "throwing away an opportunity to do something good for yourself and for others"
i believe in after life because we are ultimately made of energy, and energy cannot be destroyed. it can be rearranged, dispersed, manipulated, changed in form, but it cannot be destroyed. We are energy.
Well sweet, suicide won't work anyway.
So why is it wrong for the energy in a body to choose to leave it?
Quote:
i believe that your after life is greatly a product of what you do on the planet while you are here. although no one will experience a negative after life, it is very possible that those who cut their time short on this planet, selfishly removing themselves from the planet rather than helping themselves or helping others, may experience a lesser quality after life. still a good one, but perhaps, say, if you do enough good deeds here on earth, that when we pass on, we may be given the ability to fly! but suicide people wouldnt get that ability... although they still would be able to run very fast... haha jk. these are just humorous ways of me partially demonstrating my beliefs to you, so please dont get offended by me not taking the after life discussion too seriously.
now enough on after life...
3. i did not literally mean that happiness comes out of THIN air. i meant that someone can find happiness in nearly anything. even depressed individuals who are severely negative due to chemical imbalances and deficiencies in their nervous system still find pleasure in common tasks such as eating, bathing, having sex, etc. but STILL, i will go further when i say that those individuals are not stuck in their ways. thanks to the powerful, mind-imprinting mental states that can be achieved by consuming appropriate psychedelics, these people may be opened up to a new way of thinking about the world.... and while thinking in that altered way, if you play them some uplifting classical music, or uplifting ambient psychedelic music, they may experience the most intense form of pleasure that they had ever experienced, instantly motivating their nervous system to start producing more of whatever neurotransmitter they were previously lacking on.
Ok well first off, I buy into the whole chemical driven machine theory as a mechanism by which those who control the chemicals and the clinical diagnoses will gain control over the chemistry of others. When someone is depressed they should be given the ability to overcome their personal chemistry, not an addictive drug to entrap them further...
Quote:
depression is being treated with entheogenic compounds and MDMA, post traumatic stress disorder is also being treated with those compounds, Obsessive compulsive disorder is ALSO being treated with these compounds, etc. etc. etc.
i dont believe in suicide, because if someone kills themself before i have a chance to get to them, or before YOU have a chance to get to them, that is one less person that is on this planet to enrich our experience, to enrich our community, and to inspire other potential suicide-partakers to think twice before throwing it away.
There is a big difference between not wanting someone to kill themself and believing they would be 'wrong' in doing so. People have the rights over their own lives, if you want someone to feel better about life, restricting them from leaving it is no way to go about it. Restricting someone from having the power of decision over their own life only serves to further dis-empower them and bring them into the control of others.
If I believed this was a world where people should not have control over their own bodies, I would think we had the right to judge those who took their own lives. I don't; I think individual control in this world should source from within the individual, and I think any mechanism which prevents an individual from having self control is ends and means. To tell someone you enjoy them in this life is to show them you care; to tell someone they have no right to leave this life because they will hurt others is to show them you don't.
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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nonwo
truth seeker
Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1,431
Loc: southern usa
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: flower_child]
#9024490 - 10/03/08 03:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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if you going to do it go postal
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yellow red black and white cometogether as humans and fallow the path the creater intended
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9028238 - 10/04/08 11:18 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
That's reasonable. But I think it should continue to be stigmatised and heavily discouraged (except in cases like euthanasia) .
Why, so you can feel comfortable? I'm really wondering what business it is of yours?
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9029408 - 10/04/08 04:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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You mean if one of my friends kills themselves? Of course it's my business...
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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FuManchu
Psilly ol' Man
Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 2,855
Loc: Big Kahuna Burger
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9029466 - 10/04/08 04:15 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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i would never condone suicide
but if the reason is there and good enough then get it over with, just dont be so selfish as to make it so someone else cops the wrath.
sorry excuse me lol
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~BRUG LIFE~
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: FuManchu]
#9029519 - 10/04/08 04:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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suicide is a selfish way to deal with ones problems, because rather than dealing with the problems in a way that helps one as WELL as helping those around them, such as seeking treatment, or a shamanic ritual...
choosing suicide as the method of dealing with the problems causes family members and friends who loved that individual to experience drastic pain.
i dont believe suicide is right, because it hurts the people around that person. its selfish.
--------------------
Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9029546 - 10/04/08 04:48 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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My thoughts exactly.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9029623 - 10/04/08 05:32 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Give me one single example of something that's not selfish please.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9029648 - 10/04/08 05:41 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Everything is selfish to some degree, but some things are worse than others.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,677
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 4 hours, 26 minutes
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9029660 - 10/04/08 05:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PookztA said:
suicide is a selfish way to deal with ones problems, because rather than dealing with the problems in a way that helps one as WELL as helping those around them, such as seeking treatment, or a shamanic ritual...
Are you implying that choosing to deal with the circumstance that helps oneself and those around you, such as receiving treatment, is not selfish? What do you even mean when you say "selfish"? Why is being "selfish" a negative thing?
Quote:
choosing suicide as the method of dealing with the problems causes family members and friends who loved that individual to experience drastic pain.
Um, sorry, but this is completely false. A human being's emotional state is their own personal responsibility, even if they allow that state to be influenced by external events. The perspective you have put forth on how the causation of emotional experience works is just not the way reality operates.
Quote:
i dont believe suicide is right, because it hurts the people around that person. its selfish.
I can't grasp this reasoning. Suicide is not "right", and it is selfish, because other people cause themselves to suffer as result of someone they know committing it, but the person themselves, who are obviously suffering immensely and cannot find any other way to make it stop, should not take the one action that will alleviate their suffering?
By your reasoning, the people who are hurt by someone they know committing suicide are being selfish, because instead of seeking a way of dealing with their own emotional problems in a beneficial way, such as seeking therapy, they instead hold the unreasonable expectation that others should suffer or otherwise do what they think is best with their own lives in order for themselves to no longer suffer.
The double standard that you put forth in this thread is blatantly obvious.
Let me ask you a question:
Do you, honestly now, think that the people who commit suicide actually want to do it?
Let me know what you think.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,677
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 4 hours, 26 minutes
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9029661 - 10/04/08 05:46 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
My thoughts exactly.
Well then, my reply address your point of view on the matter equally as much, so feel free to reply to me as though it was specifically addressed to you.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9029675 - 10/04/08 05:52 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Everything is selfish to some degree, but some things are worse than others.
What kind of measurements did you take in order to determine this?
While I agree, generally, that some thing are more so than others, I really can't see how you have concluded that all suicides are generally more selfish than other things.
Also, even the actions that seem to benefit a larger group of people and not only the individual are still made for selfish reasons. The person who did that action did it because it was, in one way or another, in their interest.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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>who are obviously suffering immensely and cannot find any other way to make it stop
This is the central assumption that I disagree with. I do not believe that this is always the case.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9029856 - 10/04/08 06:57 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
>who are obviously suffering immensely and cannot find any other way to make it stop
This is the central assumption that I disagree with. I do not believe that this is always the case.
Ok, let's say in some cases people even find an orgasmic pleasure in the idea of taking their lives. What's the problem with that? 
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,677
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 4 hours, 26 minutes
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9029867 - 10/04/08 07:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
>who are obviously suffering immensely and cannot find any other way to make it stop
This is the central assumption that I disagree with. I do not believe that this is always the case.
Even if it wasn't, it is still their own choice, but it is plainly obvious that they couldn't find another way to make it stop, or else they would have made it stop. I mean, honestly, I don't see how it couldn't be any more clear than that. Otherwise, if they just wanted to kill themselves even though they knew they could alleviate their suffering other ways, or just because they thought it would be interesting to do, then why would it matter?
It is their fucking life. 
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9029899 - 10/04/08 07:09 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Everything is selfish to some degree, but some things are worse than others.
Shrimp cannot really be considered shellfish.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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FuManchu
Psilly ol' Man
Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 2,855
Loc: Big Kahuna Burger
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You're absolutely right, it is their life, everyone elses opinion is exactly that, an opinion.
As far as i know, i never had any say in the matter of me being born Lol
What about suicide for the reason of that the game of life is up/over?
Does that alone hold enough grounds?
One thing selfish about alot of suicides is how they go out,
i know life isnt always fair,
its just not right to drive youself head on into on coming traffic or to throw yourself infront of a train or so on,
theres no need to take someone elses life with yours or put your blood on someone elses hands.
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~BRUG LIFE~
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9030089 - 10/04/08 08:04 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
>who are obviously suffering immensely and cannot find any other way to make it stop
This is the central assumption that I disagree with. I do not believe that this is always the case.
Not all suicides are out of mere avoidance of pain and suffering.
What about suicide bombers?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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FuManchu
Psilly ol' Man
Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 2,855
Loc: Big Kahuna Burger
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9030201 - 10/04/08 08:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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would you call that patriotism or terrorism? or other? lol
--------------------
~BRUG LIFE~
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: FuManchu]
#9030218 - 10/04/08 08:41 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Both--it's just a matter of who you ask.
If you truly believe that what you're doing is right, there is no more fear of death.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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FuManchu
Psilly ol' Man
Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 2,855
Loc: Big Kahuna Burger
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9030263 - 10/04/08 08:56 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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i would have to disagree with that last sentence
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~BRUG LIFE~
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theshiz777
Friend
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 155
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: daytripper23]
#9030398 - 10/04/08 09:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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To me the thing wrong with suicide is that the person trying to kill them selves has lost hope, and as a believer I feel you should never lose hope.
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FuManchu
Psilly ol' Man
Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 2,855
Loc: Big Kahuna Burger
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: theshiz777]
#9030442 - 10/04/08 09:49 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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as a believer in what? some may say nothingness some may say everything
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~BRUG LIFE~
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 12 hours, 56 minutes
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: theshiz777]
#9030451 - 10/04/08 09:51 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
theshiz777 said:
To me the thing wrong with suicide is that if I try to kill myself I've lost hope, and as a believer I feel I should never lose hope.
Fixed.
Why project your beliefs onto other people's actions?
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FuManchu
Psilly ol' Man
Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 2,855
Loc: Big Kahuna Burger
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: theshiz777]
#9030514 - 10/04/08 10:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
theshiz777 said:
To me the thing wrong with suicide is that the person trying to kill them selves has lost hope, and as a believer I feel you should never lose hope.
Yes but thats you and youre not thinking outside of the square there
--------------------
~BRUG LIFE~
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9031502 - 10/05/08 07:08 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
You mean if one of my friends kills themselves? Of course it's my business...
But it's not your business. You may have feelings about it one way or another but the choice doesn't belong to you and you have no rights in the matter.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
theshiz777
Friend
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 155
Last seen: 3 months, 27 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9031747 - 10/05/08 09:30 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I believe the question is what is wrong with suicide, right. i simply gave an opinion on what is wrong with it, take it for what you want. I have my opinion the way you have yours. I never pushed anything on anyone so please dont accuse me of that, simply stating my opinion to the questions at hand.
I could care less if you blew your brains out or whatever, it doesnt affect my life, just saying, that i feel people shouldnt loose hope. Is there something wrong with that, or should I start attacking your opinions too?
Oweyervishice I guess I could also ask you why project your opinions on my beliefs?
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9032223 - 10/05/08 11:35 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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OH MY GOD:
After consuming 2 grams of mushrooms last night at the sacred Mosquoketa caverns near Cedar Rapids, IA, my friend coincidentally brought up the topic of suicide without ever knowing that I have recently been speaking my opinion on suicide here in this Shroomery forum thread. how amazing, that the universe decided to open my lid on a subject that i could not have been more wrong about...
after much discussion and taking my wise friend's points to heart, i have realized that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH SUICIDE. it is each individuals choice to either use his life, or to end his life.... and perhaps even to end it with hopes of there being a better after life awaiting him or her on the "other side".
even though suicide draws negative attention to the death, hurting friends and family, it is equally good because it offers those friends, family members, and the global audience a highly charged issue to learn from, and benefit from, if they can view the suicide as an opportunity to grow. it may help people to appreciate their own lives more, it may even help people to reach out to other people who they may fear they could lose to suicide, that they had not previously considered suicidal candidates.
after a very powerful mushroom experience, exploring the forest all night in the cold rain from 2:30am until 11am this morning, having deep, DEEP conversations about extra terrestrials, life, our source of creation, free will, and suicide, i honestly have had my eyes opened to the fact that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH SUICIDE, as it is each individuals own choice.
sure I will try to prevent it, for i never want to lose any friend or acquaintance prematurely (before natural causes or accidents), but still, if someone does successfully commit suicide, we must just learn from their choice, and focus on taking whatever messages and lessons there are to be taken from the suicide, and moving forward in a positive, hopefully, and more motivated attitude to reach out and help others.
sorry for ALL of those i offended by saying suicide was wrong.
i STILL believe that life is a gift and an opportunity, but i no longer feel suicide is morally wrong, as it is each individuals own choice as to whether or not they want to continue existing in this physical body.
Thank you Psilocybin, once again, the great teacher has imparted new wisdom, open-mindedness, and understanding upon me.
Thank you guys for this awesome intellectually stimulating discussion! this forum is AMAZING!
-Abraham Rodriguez
 SHINE ON!
--------------------
Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9032373 - 10/05/08 12:08 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why do you consider the caves sacred? Because someone else has?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,677
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 4 hours, 26 minutes
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9032555 - 10/05/08 12:51 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Sounds like you had a great experience.
I'm glad you realized that someone shouldn't be forced to live simply because they are already living and because some find great opportunities in the living of their life. It would be most preferable if everyone was able to work out their life situation so that they would not feel the need to commit suicide, and its certainly a worthwhile goal to strive for, but if someone is, for whatever reason, struggling with their life and cannot find any way to continue living, then there is nothing wrong with their committing suicide. I'd much prefer someone to no longer exist than to continue to exist in a state of uncontrollable suffering.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
|
origuami
The Cap'n
Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 7,939
Loc: New England, USA
Last seen: 8 days, 17 hours
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but they leave such an awful mess.
the should at least do it without leaving a mess, jump in a volcano you pussies!
--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9032947 - 10/05/08 02:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zouden said:
You mean if one of my friends kills themselves? Of course it's my business...
But it's not your business. You may have feelings about it one way or another but the choice doesn't belong to you and you have no rights in the matter.
Agreed, but I'm pointing out that even though it's not my choice, I'm still affected by it. That's where my concern lies.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,677
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 4 hours, 26 minutes
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9033238 - 10/05/08 03:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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You choose how you are affected by it. Are you suggesting that people should be forced to live so that you don't upset yourself emotionally?
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
|
Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 12 hours, 56 minutes
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: theshiz777]
#9033247 - 10/05/08 03:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
theshiz777 said:
Oweyervishice I guess I could also ask you why project your opinions on my beliefs?
I have no choice. 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: theshiz777]
#9033264 - 10/05/08 03:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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i simply gave an opinion on what is wrong with it, take it for what you want. I have my opinion the way you have yours. I never pushed anything on anyone so please dont accuse me of that,
I don't remember accusing you of anything personal. I thought I was debating a subject and like you gave your opinion I had an opinion on what you wrote.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9033284 - 10/05/08 03:23 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PookztA said:
OH MY GOD:
After consuming 2 grams of mushrooms last night at the sacred Mosquoketa caverns near Cedar Rapids, IA, my friend coincidentally brought up the topic of suicide without ever knowing that I have recently been speaking my opinion on suicide here in this Shroomery forum thread. how amazing, that the universe decided to open my lid on a subject that i could not have been more wrong about...
after much discussion and taking my wise friend's points to heart, i have realized that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH SUICIDE. it is each individuals choice to either use his life, or to end his life.... and perhaps even to end it with hopes of there being a better after life awaiting him or her on the "other side".
even though suicide draws negative attention to the death, hurting friends and family, it is equally good because it offers those friends, family members, and the global audience a highly charged issue to learn from, and benefit from, if they can view the suicide as an opportunity to grow. it may help people to appreciate their own lives more, it may even help people to reach out to other people who they may fear they could lose to suicide, that they had not previously considered suicidal candidates.
after a very powerful mushroom experience, exploring the forest all night in the cold rain from 2:30am until 11am this morning, having deep, DEEP conversations about extra terrestrials, life, our source of creation, free will, and suicide, i honestly have had my eyes opened to the fact that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH SUICIDE, as it is each individuals own choice.
sure I will try to prevent it, for i never want to lose any friend or acquaintance prematurely (before natural causes or accidents), but still, if someone does successfully commit suicide, we must just learn from their choice, and focus on taking whatever messages and lessons there are to be taken from the suicide, and moving forward in a positive, hopefully, and more motivated attitude to reach out and help others.
sorry for ALL of those i offended by saying suicide was wrong.
i STILL believe that life is a gift and an opportunity, but i no longer feel suicide is morally wrong, as it is each individuals own choice as to whether or not they want to continue existing in this physical body.
Thank you Psilocybin, once again, the great teacher has imparted new wisdom, open-mindedness, and understanding upon me.
Thank you guys for this awesome intellectually stimulating discussion! this forum is AMAZING!
-Abraham Rodriguez
SHINE ON!
IMO it's not the suicide or the personal feeling of loss that bothers many or most or all, as much as it is the fear of death, aka death anxiety.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
You choose how you are affected by it. Are you suggesting that people should be forced to live so that you don't upset yourself emotionally?
Well, I'm not saying they should be forced to live (you can't really enforce that anyway) but I just wish that people would recognise that suicide can be, and often is, extremely inconsiderate.
Also, I wish people would stop using the statement 'you choose how you are affected by it' because that's... not really the case. If it were, couldn't depressed people just choose to be happy? That'd reduce the number of suicides. Or people in chronic pain could just ignore it? The fact is, not everyone has complete control over their emotions, and this applies both to those contemplating suicide, and those who would be affected by it. The only thing we can hope to do is to reduce suffering in the world, and to do that we need to consider everyone.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9033315 - 10/05/08 03:31 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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would recognise that suicide can be, and often is, extremely inconsiderate.
Just like farting but we get them out somehow.
Considerate, not considerate, the difference is all in how you choose the see things. I don't find it inconsiderate in the least. I find it liberating and am glad I and everyone else isn't completely controlled by convention and has some choice in this matter.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden] 1
#9033326 - 10/05/08 03:33 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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If it were, couldn't depressed people just choose to be happy?
Yes they could. But they are afraid of what it takes to be really happy. They don't want to face all the messy shit that got them where they are.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9033337 - 10/05/08 03:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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>But they are afraid of what it takes to be really happy. They don't want to face all the messy shit that got them where they are.
Do you think then, for those people, that suicide is the best option? A good option? A bad option?
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9033366 - 10/05/08 03:44 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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How could it be best good or bad? That is personal judgment an if I picked one then I would be giving you my egos world view.
It would be different in each case of course but in the end its just "an option" along with many others of you're looking. If it feels best to you then you need to follow your choices and accept the consequences.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander] 1
#9033371 - 10/05/08 03:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
If it were, couldn't depressed people just choose to be happy?
Yes they could. But they are afraid of what it takes to be really happy. They don't want to face all the messy shit that got them where they are.
I read/skimmed a 600 page tome on depression (can't remember the title or the author). His research into every popular modality for treating depression and 15 years of research came to the conclusion that depression may be managed, but not cured.
Thinking happy, positive thoughts had negligible affect on the clinically depressed.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Plasmid
Absent
Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 1,719
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
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Quote:
YawningAnus said:
why is there such an urge to prevent it?
I would want to prevent a suicide simply because I see it as an unnecessary end to a human life. It wouldn't be about preventing suicide per se, for me, but about preventing a needless death.
Quote:
why is it considered charitable or noble to "help people" through suicidal times?
Probably because you don't get much out of it in the end.
Quote:
I think the general concensus is that suicide is selfish . . .
Suicide is selfish. Wanting someone you care about not to kill themselves so that you can continue to enjoy their company is selfish. Selfishness is not always bad.
Quote:
Our society, IMO, has some really fucked up ideas and views associated with death. We characterize and categorize it like eskimos do with snow. We have murder, suicide, "old age", man slaughter, justifiable homocide (war) and the memoriam inducing "accidental tragedy that extinguished his/her life far too soon". Within these categories, we have even more sub-categories.
And you know what linguists would tell you about Eskimos? That snow was important to them. Your culture, whichever culture you identify with, is not the only culture that talks about death. I'm pretty sure that all cultures recognize death and have more than one word to describe how someone dies and the meaning of the actions around it.
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but in the end, death is death
Yes, death is death, but not all deaths are the same. You shouldn't ignore all the variations in an event just because the basic underlying occurrence is the same.
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What does it matter if someone kills themselves?
That's just a stupid fucking question and I'll tell you why? It matters because other people care about others' lives. Some suicides will matter more to more people than other suicides, but suicide matters to people because death is generally upsetting and people don't like to lose loved ones.
Quote:
To prove my point . . .
As far as I can tell, your points are that society has "fucked up" ideas about death and suicide doesn't matter. You've not bothered to try explaining your points. You've just asked a lot of questions and I'm wondering if you're going to start doing some explaining.
Quote:
at any moment, we can die.
And we can always chose not to kill ourselves.
Saying that we can die any moment should remind you of how precious life is and that if you chose to commit suicide, you can't take that back (unless you don't die). What you missed in your example with "Bob" in pointing out the differences was the biggest and most important difference: in one case, Bob was killed due to circumstances beyond his control, while in the other case Bob decided to end his own life. Bob didn't have to kill himself.
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i think we can better understand and "cope" with it if we suspend our conditioned reactions and emotions for only a few moments to gain a window of clarity and realize that death is simply just death.
I don't think that our reactions and emotions to death are conditioned by culture. I think that they are mostly conditioned by evolution and that we probably won't be able to override emotional reactions which are "hard wired" into our brains.
Saying that "Death is just death" says absolutely nothing. What is the point of saying that? It's EMPTY in content. If I were to insist that "torture is simply torture" does that make torture any less unpleasant?
Quote:
cease with the "what if's" and "I coulda done this".
Sometimes it is a good idea to reflect on why you chose a particular course of action and how you might have chosen a better course. If you want to learn from your experiences, this kind of reflection is probably healthy.
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Bodily death is imminent for all of us
Really? The way medicine is going these days, I figured that I have a good chance of surviving for another 50 years. I don't consider that "imminent."
Quote:
then why waste your own living life placating conditioned responses to societal taboos?
What the fuck? First of all, I don't think most people have a choice. Emotional responses are not consciously decided upon. You can consciously chose how to respond to your emotions, but you can't just wake up one morning and say, "You know what, I'm a fucking drone. I'm not going to think about and respond to death in the same way. It's blind conformism." And how is this a waste of life? You seem to be saying that if a person thinks about and emotionally responds to death in a socially normal manner that they have wasted their lives?
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9033387 - 10/05/08 03:49 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
How could it be best good or bad? That is personal judgment an if I picked one then I would be giving you my egos world view.
It would be different in each case of course but in the end its just "an option" along with many others of you're looking. If it feels best to you then you need to follow your choices and accept the consequences.
So you don't have an opinion either way? What about in specific cases? For example, if your best friend was contemplating suicide, would you try and talk him out of it?
Orgy: I agree, that fits my understanding of depression too, but I chose to avoid that argument
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
If it were, couldn't depressed people just choose to be happy?
Yes they could. But they are afraid of what it takes to be really happy. They don't want to face all the messy shit that got them where they are.
I read/skimmed a 600 page tome on depression (can't remember the title or the author). His research into every popular modality for treating depression and 15 years of research came to the conclusion that depression may be managed, but not cured.
Thinking happy, positive thoughts had negligible affect on the clinically depressed.
Yes and a million pages can be wrong. Exercise, sunlight, change of diet especially white sugar and white flour, essential fatty acids; there seems to be a connection between learned helplessness and depression. I could go on but Veritas is leaving the room. According to Veritas you can fix depression and she said that she did it in herself.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (10/05/08 04:02 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9033428 - 10/05/08 04:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Orgy: I agree, that fits my understanding of depression too, but I chose to avoid that argument
It is a popular misconception to comingle unhappiness with depression. People may have a near-perfect life and still suffer.
Antidepressants don't work by flooding the brain with thoughts of rainbows and unicorns and flowers, but by attempting to rebalance neurotransmitter levels.
I suffered for many years. How I pulled out I do not know exactly (no pharms), but I could have an uncontrollable crying jag for no apparent reason. I would not be thinking about the past or personal losses or paths not taken; i,.e thinking sad thoughts.
I could be out hiking on a sunny day or visiting my best friend at the beach or out to dinner with a fine woman and have to excuse myself until the storm passed.
Those who believe one merely has to get tough with themselves or reprogram their mind are not knowledgable about severe depression.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
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Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 4 hours, 26 minutes
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Plasmid]
#9033440 - 10/05/08 04:01 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Also, I wish people would stop using the statement 'you choose how you are affected by it' because that's... not really the case. If it were, couldn't depressed people just choose to be happy?
They could if they knew how. Anyways, even if one hasn't assumed enough personal responsibility to consciously direct how they feel, its still within their domain. I'm simply saying that the idea that others shouldn't commit suicide because others haven't assumed enough responsibility to not inflict suffering upon themselves as a result isn't a reasonable one.
Quote:
Plasmid said:
What the fuck? First of all, I don't think most people have a choice. Emotional responses are not consciously decided upon.
They aren't as long as you don't make conscious decisions on how to emotionally respond. Some people do. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9033448 - 10/05/08 04:04 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yes and a million pages can be wrong.
I understand that your off-the-cuff opinion carries more weight than one who dedicated his life to healing/curing depression.
Quote:
Exercise, sunlight, change of diet especially white sugar and white flour, essential fatty acids; there seems to be a connection between learned helplessness and depression.
Even during my darkest days, I got lots of sunlight, stayed off ALL drugs & alcohol and worked out daily.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Orgy: I agree, that fits my understanding of depression too, but I chose to avoid that argument
It is a popular misconception to comingle unhappiness with depression. People may have a near-perfect life and still suffer.
Antidepressants don't work by flooding the brain with thoughts of rainbows and unicorns and flowers, but by attempting to rebalance neurotransmitter levels.
I suffered for many years. How I pulled out I do not know exactly (no pharms), but I could have an uncontrollable crying jag for no apparent reason. I would not be thinking about the past or personal losses or paths not taken; i,.e thinking sad thoughts.
I could be out hiking on a sunny day or visiting my best friend at the beach or out to dinner with a fine woman and have to excuse myself until the storm passed.
Those who believe one merely has to get tough with themselves or reprogram their mind are not knowledgable about severe depression.
A lifetime of burying your emotions will cause them to get out through the cracks. A lifetime of burying your emotions will leave patterns that would be painful and an incredible struggle to change. But that just means it's very difficult, not that it cannot be done.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Quote:
They could if they knew how.
They could also cure themselves of cancer if they knew how.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9033491 - 10/05/08 04:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Your ignorance on this subject is making me depressed.
Article
What is Clinical Depression?
When we refer to depression in the following pages, we are talking about "clinical depression." Clinical depression is a serious medical illness that negatively affects how you feel, the way you think and how you act. Individuals with clinical depression are unable to function as they used to. Often they have lost interest in activities that were once enjoyable to them, and feel sad and hopeless for extended periods of time. Clinical depression is not the same as feeling sad or depressed for a few days and then feeling better. It can affect your body, mood, thoughts, and behavior. It can change your eating habits, how you feel and think, your ability to work and study, and how you interact with people. People who suffer from clinical depression often report that they "don't feel like themselves anymore."
Clinical depression is not a sign of personal weakness, or a condition that can be willed away. Clinically depressed people cannot "pull themselves together" and get better. .
In fact, clinical depression often interferes with a person's ability or wish to get help. Clinical depression is a serious illness that lasts for weeks, months and sometimes years. It may even influence someone to contemplate or attempt suicide.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
They could if they knew how.
They could also cure themselves of cancer if they knew how.
I have a friend who actually did cure himself of cancer. The doctors were mystified.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9033502 - 10/05/08 04:14 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zouden said:
You mean if one of my friends kills themselves? Of course it's my business...
But it's not your business. You may have feelings about it one way or another but the choice doesn't belong to you and you have no rights in the matter.
Agreed, but I'm pointing out that even though it's not my choice, I'm still affected by it. That's where my concern lies.
Ohhhh...
So suicide shouldn't be allowed because YOU'RE selfish! I get it now. 
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Zactly!
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9033529 - 10/05/08 04:19 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Please answer this question:
People that do too much Ecstasy get depressed because:
1. They have a lifetime of suppressed emotions.
2. Are not dreaming of dolphins cavorting in tropical seas.
3. Their brain chemistry is out of whack.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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I choose numbers 1 and 3. Number one caused number three over time.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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People who have sex on Ecstasy get depressed because their orgasms will never feel as good again. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Your ignorance on this subject is making me depressed.
Article
What is Clinical Depression?
When we refer to depression in the following pages, we are talking about "clinical depression." Clinical depression is a serious medical illness that negatively affects how you feel, the way you think and how you act. Individuals with clinical depression are unable to function as they used to. Often they have lost interest in activities that were once enjoyable to them, and feel sad and hopeless for extended periods of time. Clinical depression is not the same as feeling sad or depressed for a few days and then feeling better. It can affect your body, mood, thoughts, and behavior. It can change your eating habits, how you feel and think, your ability to work and study, and how you interact with people. People who suffer from clinical depression often report that they "don't feel like themselves anymore."
Clinical depression is not a sign of personal weakness, or a condition that can be willed away. Clinically depressed people cannot "pull themselves together" and get better. .
In fact, clinical depression often interferes with a person's ability or wish to get help. Clinical depression is a serious illness that lasts for weeks, months and sometimes years. It may even influence someone to contemplate or attempt suicide.
And where's the palpable evidence that points towards the existence of such a thing? 
Because, other than the testimony of the depressed, saying that they can't pull themselves out of there, there is absolutely nothing that says that.
What about the people that have been diagnosed with clinical depression, and, after years, they have made a miraculous recover? Does it mean that their diagnosis was wrong all this time?
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3,635
Last seen: 12 hours, 56 minutes
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Can a chemically unbalanced brain be separated from the mind corresponding to it?
People who do too much X feel depressed because their chemicals are whacked, or, they have felt these amazing states under the influence and sober reality is now a drag.
Admittedly I know very little about this stuff...just throwing it out there.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9033563 - 10/05/08 04:28 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
What about the people that have been diagnosed with clinical depression, and, after years, they have made a miraculous recover?
I am one who made such a recovery, yet I can point to no modality as the corrective agent.
Quote:
And where's the palpable evidence that points towards the existence of such a thing?
The clinically depressed have out of whack neurotransmitters. This is measurable.
People doing too much E demonstrate this affect.
Next thing you know you and Ice are going to be telling us that people can think their way out of Alzheimers'...
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Next thing you know you and Ice are going to be telling us that people can think their way out of Alzheimers'...
No,
it seems that someone is trying to change the subject however.
If I get scared the chemicals released in my body/brain effect me. If I calm myself down the same thing happens. Are you saying this is impossible?
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Your ignorance on this subject is making me depressed.
Article
What is Clinical Depression?
When we refer to depression in the following pages, we are talking about "clinical depression." Clinical depression is a serious medical illness that negatively affects how you feel, the way you think and how you act. Individuals with clinical depression are unable to function as they used to. Often they have lost interest in activities that were once enjoyable to them, and feel sad and hopeless for extended periods of time. Clinical depression is not the same as feeling sad or depressed for a few days and then feeling better. It can affect your body, mood, thoughts, and behavior. It can change your eating habits, how you feel and think, your ability to work and study, and how you interact with people. People who suffer from clinical depression often report that they "don't feel like themselves anymore."
Clinical depression is not a sign of personal weakness, or a condition that can be willed away. Clinically depressed people cannot "pull themselves together" and get better. .
In fact, clinical depression often interferes with a person's ability or wish to get help. Clinical depression is a serious illness that lasts for weeks, months and sometimes years. It may even influence someone to contemplate or attempt suicide.
Clinical depression is a matter of clinical diagnosis. Certainly sadness and fixation of character around sadness are issues to address; but I find it a strange coincidence that incidence of depression began rapidly accelerating shortly after the advent of the anti-depressant. I also find it a strange coincidence that after suffering from diagnosed depression myself for a decade, that my eventual and complete remission came about after studying the philosophical implications of "being depressed".
Especially interesting coincidences in my progression came about while I was learning about hypnosis; about how the mind will bend to fulfill any suggestion given and accepted, and how socially I was not technically qualified to know if I was clinically depressed.
The coincidence that the industry qualified to classify me was also the industry to sell me the treatment (for private profit) was also quite striking.
I was no longer surprised by the time I abandoned my belief in depression and never saw a relapse in symptoms...
Of course my depression, although severe, longterm, and sometimes disabling; was nowhere near as severe as the sort of mind-state some even less hopeful or mentally opportunistic people find themselves in. Everyone deserves the right to drugs, and professional oversight, if they wish to modify their mind-state. I'm not sure we should have the right to make a profit industry off these new diseases however.
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9033595 - 10/05/08 04:35 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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No, what I am saying is that depression can be temporarily induced in ANYONE. This points to chemical imbalance not lack of being hugged as a child.
Am still waiting for one objective piece of evidence (not personal anecdote) to back your opinion. I can point to hundreds of papers that back what I have stated.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
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As I said you will have to talk to V (which you have already ) because the Iceman is too stoned and lazy to do the research himself.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9033627 - 10/05/08 04:41 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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At least you are not too lazy to offer up popular misconceptions.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
No, what I am saying is that depression can be temporarily induced in ANYONE. This points to chemical imbalance not lack of being hugged as a child.
Am still waiting for one objective piece of evidence (not personal anecdote) to back your opinion. I can point to hundreds of papers that back what I have stated.
The interesting thing about belief based disease is that there may be no evidence other than the belief itself; known to be untestable. There is no sugar pill for belief. This is a very convenient fact in modern mental disorder and related pharmacy.
I recommend checking out the trends for mental-health related drug prescription across the board.
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Still waiting for one person to post a credible source opposing my stance.
So far: none.
Uneducated opinions: unlimited.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Links please.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Am still waiting for one objective piece of evidence (not personal anecdote) to back your opinion. I can point to hundreds of papers that back what I have stated.
Are all those papers like the one you just provided with? Because if it's so, it most definitely doesn't prove that some depressions are short-term while others are here to stay, sticked to a person forever.
I've done quite a bit of reading on depression, and all I could find was evidence that some people state that they can't get over their depression and some evidence in chemical imbalance (but which only reflects the state of mind that the person has at the given moment, and not more than that), chemical imbalance which looks very similar in a person with a one week depression. Perhaps you can show how "clinical" depression can be differentiated from the short term depression, since the test results in chemical imbalance are similar?
Also, you example with ecstasy abuse is not good, since it is a chemical compound, outside from one's body, that is being ingested and produces chemical changes, as opposed to solely one's thoughts that make the whole change.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9033705 - 10/05/08 04:54 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Also, you example with ecstasy abuse is not good, since it is a chemical compound, outside from one's body, that is being ingested and produces chemical changes,
Everything we eat is composed of external chemicals.
Quote:
as opposed to solely one's thoughts that make the whole change.
OK, where is the evidence for that?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Everything we eat is composed of external chemicals.
But there is a big difference between water and poison.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9033727 - 10/05/08 04:57 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey, off-topic, but you got one right! 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Thanks for your support.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Still waiting for one person to post a credible source opposing my stance.
So far: none.
Uneducated opinions: unlimited.
You're missing the point. Your sources are true; just believe them and you'll know this as fact.
I spent a few years studying depression; eventually I started studying myself instead, moved to studying mind manipulation, and was mysteriously cured. My story doesn't have a double blind test, if I needed a double blind test to see if I was cured I would suspect otherwise.
The depression industry is designed entirely around double blind proofs (irrelevant to belief) and speculative suggestion that 'brain chemicals have gotcha' and the cause-effect relationship is one way. If you believe what they say is true it is a self-fulfilling prophecy; I will not convince you otherwise and I respect your freedom of belief.
My opinion:
You have every right to label yourself however you want, or to have whoever you want label you however you want; you also have the right to use whatever substances you want to alter your mind in whatever manner you want.
Proof is not something I can or want to give you, it's something we give ourselves, take it as it best suits you, prove whatever reality you believe in.
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
Edited by ExplosiveMango (10/05/08 05:06 PM)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9033754 - 10/05/08 05:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Everything we eat is composed of external chemicals.
But there is a big difference between water and poison.
Drink too much water and you'll die.
Everything is poison, nothing is poison.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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You're missing the point. Your sources are true; just believe them and you'll know this as fact.
"What the thinker thinks, the prover proves."
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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I will try to find the book that I referred to.
The author was not associated with Big Pharma. He included chapters on Tai Chi, meditation, diet, psychotherapy, exercise, fasting and so on.
Almost all the people showed some small improvement, but not one was 'cured'.
Today, I still have 'normal' mood swings, but nothing like when I went through my depression.
I did not consciously change my thought process so that does not appear to have been a factor.
I did a write up on my Adult Night Terrors some years back (which also have passed). Once again the ignorant came out and said it was psychological and due to bad dreams, when it fact it is a sleep disorder unrelated to dreaming. One goes from phase IV sleep back to being awake without passing through the other 3 stages. It is terrifying like you cannot believe and almost always occurs around 20 minutes after falling alseep.
I bring this up because it is similar in that it is physiological.
In fact, the worst attack ever came after making love to a woman I intended to marry. I fell peacefully and contentedly asleep in her arms and woke up shortly thereafter screaming and couldn't stop for several minutes; which scared the hell out of her.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Everything we eat is composed of external chemicals.
Right. Each of these chemicals with different reactions, I thought this was why you gave ecstasy as an example and not other chemical.
And since we were talking about ecstasy and since we know it's effects, and since we know about the effects of ecstasy abuse, let's just focus on that since you're the one that brought it up.
Like I was saying, ecstasy abuse creates a chemical imbalance (it is known to be a result of it based or side by side research - the group that has received ecstasy for a prolonged amount of time showed the same chemical imbalance, and the placebo group showed none).
All that abuse of E demonstrates is the result of... yes, E abuse I really fail to see how you decided to take it further and apply it to depression that's not caused by E or any other physical damage. Does electric shocks (which might result on depressions and which also results on a chemical imbalance) show that all depression is the result of "chemical imbalance"?
Quote:
as opposed to solely one's thoughts that make the whole change.
OK, where is the evidence for that?
The statement of the patients - the experience itself which is translated in thoughts, the therapist's work with the patient (therapist which gives an opinion based on the patient's thoughts)...
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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nonwo
truth seeker
Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1,431
Loc: southern usa
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if some one was going to kill themeselfs mushrooms would fix it . theyd have a bad trip think they were dieing and want to live
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yellow red black and white cometogether as humans and fallow the path the creater intended
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Quote:
ExplosiveMango said:
The depression industry is designed entirely around double blind proofs (irrelevant to belief) and speculative suggestion that 'brain chemicals have gotcha' and the cause-effect relationship is one way.
I'm going to get a paper published this year (it'll be my first ) where we report on the development of a test for antidepressant activity entirely in vitro. That is, we can observe the effect of antidepressants with a microscope and don't require live animals any more. That's how far we've come. The link between depression and biochemistry is not even questioned any more.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9034291 - 10/05/08 06:59 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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However, the negative side-effects which anti-depressants cause may be unavoidable. It's quite attractive to believe that a magic pill will cure us of our emotional illness, but I don't buy it.
If someone is terribly depressed, it will be difficult for them to participate in changes unless their symptoms are temporarily reduced through medication. However, the party line that depression is a random disorder which must be permanently controlled through medication is erroneous.
Here's some info on a study in which researchers were able to determine which patients would be able to resolve their depression through Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and which would not. It's quite interesting, as it seems to establish that depression is often a learned behavior.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060401104819.htm
IMO, too little attention is paid to the effects of poor diet, lack of exercise, irrational thought patterns, and the presence of relational verification systems (people who affirm that depression is an unavoidable response).
The fact that we can observe a chemical imbalance in those with depression implies correlation, not causation. Correcting the chemicals is like continually putting up new drywall to hide a leaky pipe--unless the source of the problem is addressed, the "solution" can only be temporary.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Next thing you know you and Ice are going to be telling us that people can think their way out of Alzheimers'...
Interesting you should mention this. I assume that you are familiar with the "nun study"? All of the nuns in a particular convent agreed to keep a journal throughout their time there & to donate their brains to science upon their death.
Autopsies of the brains revealed that several sisters had advanced Alzheimer's disease, though they had displayed NO symptoms. These sisters were among the most intellectually-active & highly educated members of the convent. It seems that their degree of neural plasticity allowed their brains to "re-route" functions away from areas destroyed by Alzheimer's, preserving their cognitive functionality without a hitch.
BTW, I seem to be missing all of the links to research which you've provided in this thread. What was the name of that big book you read? Where are the studies which prove that depression does not respond to cognitive therapy methods? I did read the article which describes clinical depression, but it did not include a single citation.
Here are a few which disprove your assertion:
Quote:
The preponderance of the available scientific evidence shows that psychological interventions, particularly cognitive-behavioral therapies (CBTs), are generally as effective or more effective than medications in the treatment of depression, even if severe, for both vegetative and social adjustment symptoms, especially when patient-rate measures and long-term follow-up are considered.
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/depression-treatment?pp=5#debate
Quote:
CBT is as effective as antidepressants for many forms of depression. It may be slightly more effective than antidepressants in treating anxiety.
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinformation/therapies/cognitivebehaviouraltherapy.aspx
I look forward to seeing your evidence.
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theshiz777
Friend
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9034753 - 10/05/08 08:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Sorry man that wasnt towards you.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9034861 - 10/05/08 08:58 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Autopsies of the brains revealed that several sisters had advanced Alzheimer's disease, though they had displayed NO symptoms. These sisters were among the most intellectually-active & highly educated members of the convent. It seems that their degree of neural plasticity allowed their brains to "re-route" functions away from areas destroyed by Alzheimer's, preserving their cognitive functionality without a hitch.
This 'use it or lose it' effect is worlds apart from consciously changing your thought patterns.
Nice try, though.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9034900 - 10/05/08 09:08 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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From Wikipedia:
Efficacy of medication and psychotherapy
Two recent meta-analyses of clinical trial results submitted to the FDA concluded that antidepressants are statistically superior to placebo but their overall effect is low-to-moderate; they often did not exceed the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence criteria for a "clinically significant" effect. In particular, the effect size was very small for moderate depression but increased with severity reaching "clinical significance" for very severe depression. These results were consistent with the earlier clinical studies in which only patients with severe depression benefited from either psychotherapy or treatment with an antidepressant, imipramine, more than from the placebo treatment.
Let's repeat this:
they often did not exceed the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence criteria for a "clinically significant" effect.
Neither drugs nor psychotherapy met the standards for a clinically significant effect.
Does not sound as if any truly efficacious method has yet been found.
There is, however, a strong hereditary component.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Your comment was that you couldn't "think your way out of Alzheimer's." Clearly, a lifetime habit of high levels of cognitive activity allowed nuns to avoid the symptoms of Alzheimer's, though their brains were damaged by the progress of the disease. Isn't this an example of "thinking your way out of Alzheimer's"? This is not directly related to the depression issue--I was responding to the additional issue you raised regarding the neurological basis of Alzheimer's.
Current research into depression and anxiety indicates that both are related to having well-established (read: habitual) neural pathways which heighten reactivity in the less-evolved portions of the brain. Cognitive therapy can alter these neural pathways & lessen both depression AND anxiety. (With no negative side-effects.)
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Actually, the statement you (apparently) quoted states that anti-depressants did not have a clinically-significant effect for mild depression. It does not say the same regarding psychotherapy. Where is your link?
Oh, here it is: Wiki Article
Perhaps you declined to link to it because it is currently identified as having issues requiring a major overhaul?
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9034999 - 10/05/08 09:34 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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From the same article:
He pointed out that the first-line alternative to medication is psychotherapy, which does not have superior efficacy.[143]
Antidepressants in general are as effective as psychotherapy for major depression, and this conclusion holds true for both severe and mild forms of MDD.
***ANECDOTE ALERT***
Got off the phone with my best buddy earlier today. Unbeknownst to me *known him for over 10 years), he suffers from depression. On the surface, he has it all: $250K per year job, lives in gorgeous Newport Beach, fantastic house, latest car, fit, active, physically healthy, handsome, confident, many male and female friends, etc.
He has been through both medication and psychotheraphy. He slowly weaned himself off Zoloft and just recently went to the emergency room for an acute anxiety attack. Has had to go back on medication.
Bottom line: I think 'experts' have a few pieces of the puzzle, but are far from truly understandiung what is going on.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9035018 - 10/05/08 09:39 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Perhaps you declined to link to it because it is currently identified as having issues requiring a major overhaul?
Perhaps you are fabricating/projecting false motivation.
More likely the poster was simultaneously playing multiple poker games which supercedes The Shroomery in priority.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Your source is wikipedia?
Seriously though, you have yet to prove that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. 
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9035661 - 10/06/08 01:51 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Actually, the statement you (apparently) quoted states that anti-depressants did not have a clinically-significant effect for mild depression.
That's my understanding. There is almost certainly different grades of depression with different causes. Some forms, the most serious ones, do not respond to CBT, because they have an underlying physiological cause. Until we get proper definitions and descriptions for the different grades of depression, it will be difficult to identify the correct treatment for each patient.
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Your source is wikipedia?
Seriously though, you have yet to prove that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance.
It's pretty easy to induce depression in animal models. We can even do it by knocking out the neural stem cells with targeted x-rays.
We also know that exercise helps depression, by restoring the neurogenic profile. That is, exercise can revert the physiological changes that induce depression and this is still consistent with the 'chemical imbalance' theory.
This is my field of research
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9035822 - 10/06/08 03:48 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I have never said that there isn't a chemical imbalance, what I was arguing about was the fact that it is a totally baseless statement to say that depression is the result of it. This chemical imbalance must be caused by something, and it makes more sense to think that the cause are the thoughts themselves, the experience of one's perception.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,299
Loc: Americas
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9035826 - 10/06/08 03:51 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Actually, the statement you (apparently) quoted states that anti-depressants did not have a clinically-significant effect for mild depression. It does not say the same regarding psychotherapy. Where is your link?
Oh, here it is: Wiki Article
Perhaps you declined to link to it because it is currently identified as having issues requiring a major overhaul?
Thank you. People bashing antidepressants constantly distort the study I'm sure he's refering to. I can guess which one it is.
That study doesn't support that SSRI's are wrothless, at all, and doesn't even investigate many.
Read the damn study, people, if you're going to spout what you decided are its conclusions.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,299
Loc: Americas
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9035834 - 10/06/08 03:56 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
I have never said that there isn't a chemical imbalance, what I was arguing about was the fact that it is a totally baseless statement to say that depression is the result of it. This chemical imbalance must be caused by something, and it makes more sense to think that the cause are the thoughts themselves, the experience of one's perception.
So if I punch you and you fall over and crack your head, falling wasn't what caused you to crack your head? It was me punching you? Or you making me upset? Or my girlfriend upseting me? Or my train that was late causing me to meet you when normally I wouldn't?
You can play the chain of causation game forever till we're talking about vibrating molecules and particles that have quantum uncertainty, which allows you to conclude their is no cause to anything.
Right now it appears that our moods are caused by our brain chemistry. That something else causes brain chemsitry is irrelevant. Are you saying you can have a mood without the brain chemistry? So your mood is influencing the chemistry? And the mood and chemistry is just a correlation with no causual relationship between each other?
What are you saying?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: johnm214]
#9035949 - 10/06/08 05:30 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
So if I punch you and you fall over and crack your head, falling wasn't what caused you to crack your head? It was me punching you?
But if there wasn't for you to punch me, the fall wouldn't have occurred.
What you're suggesting with this (not so good) example, instead of becoming aware of the details of our thoughts and what's triggering them, in order to be able to direct them where we consciously decide so we can prevent a depression, is that we should just let our emotions flow chaotically, hoping that this segment of depression won't become a habit.
Quote:
It was me punching you?
Indeedy. 
Quote:
Or you making me upset?
No, it's not me making you upset - it is you making yourself upset. I think that it's very important to note this difference.
It is your entire responsibility and decision how you react to different stimuli. No need to look further in the cause-effect chain, it begins and starts right at you. Everything is filtered and refined through your own mind; there is no pre-determined reaction to an outside stimuli, even though some might like to believe that. 
Quote:
Right now it appears that our moods are caused by our brain chemistry. That something else causes brain chemsitry is irrelevant.
Depends on what you want to change.
If you want to change just the surface (making people less depressed), you chemically alter the brain's reactions.
If you want to consciously change the imbalance, then you work on the thoughts.
I guess I am not in the measure to say what's universally best, because this belongs to personal preference. Some might be too lazy to want to work on themselves, so they prefer a pill. Others want to produce a change that will give them freedom from any outside factors and they choose to know how their minds works.
Quote:
Are you saying you can have a mood without the brain chemistry?
Where did I say that?
I think you might just be assuming, since I definitely wasn't implying such a thing.
Just because I said that we can dynamically manipulate our thoughts in order to change the brain chemistry, it doesn't mean that our chemistry doesn't affect the way we feel, they influence each other; but what we directly have control of is our thoughts, so doesn't it make sense to reach our chemical reactions thought a medium that we know?
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
Edited by MushroomTrip (10/06/08 06:24 AM)
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9036043 - 10/06/08 06:35 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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(re post so others can see my new stance)
OH MY GOD:
After consuming 2 grams of mushrooms last night at the sacred Mosquoketa caverns near Cedar Rapids, IA, my friend coincidentally brought up the topic of suicide without ever knowing that I have recently been speaking my opinion on suicide here in this Shroomery forum thread. how amazing, that the universe decided to open my lid on a subject that i could not have been more wrong about...
after much discussion and taking my wise friend's points to heart, i have realized that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH SUICIDE. it is each individuals choice to either use his life, or to end his life.... and perhaps even to end it with hopes of there being a better after life awaiting him or her on the "other side".
even though suicide draws negative attention to the death, hurting friends and family, it is equally good because it offers those friends, family members, and the global audience a highly charged issue to learn from, and benefit from, if they can view the suicide as an opportunity to grow. it may help people to appreciate their own lives more, it may even help people to reach out to other people who they may fear they could lose to suicide, that they had not previously considered suicidal candidates.
after a very powerful mushroom experience, exploring the forest all night in the cold rain from 2:30am until 11am this morning, having deep, DEEP conversations about extra terrestrials, life, our source of creation, free will, and suicide, i honestly have had my eyes opened to the fact that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH SUICIDE, as it is each individuals own choice.
sure I will try to prevent it, for i never want to lose any friend or acquaintance prematurely (before natural causes or accidents), but still, if someone does successfully commit suicide, we must just learn from their choice, and focus on taking whatever messages and lessons there are to be taken from the suicide, and moving forward in a positive, hopefully, and more motivated attitude to reach out and help others.
sorry for ALL of those i offended by saying suicide was wrong.
i STILL believe that life is a gift and an opportunity, but i no longer feel suicide is morally wrong, as it is each individuals own choice as to whether or not they want to continue existing in this physical body.
Thank you Psilocybin, once again, the great teacher has imparted new wisdom, open-mindedness, and understanding upon me.
Thank you guys for this awesome intellectually stimulating discussion! this forum is AMAZING!
-Abraham Rodriguez
SHINE ON!
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Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9036046 - 10/06/08 06:37 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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oh and the area is "sacred" because native americans once inhabited the area... and also because many of my friends have used this place as their habitat for shamanic experiences.
perhaps not that sacred, but very 'important' to my friends for years, as a safe haven filled with natural wonders (forest, caverns, creeks, wooden suspension bridge, diverse wild life, rock formations, bluffs, etc.) for which to get reacquainted with nature
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Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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j0nnyb0y05
IBelieveInBelivin
Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2,063
Loc: Going Going, Back Back to
Last seen: 29 days, 4 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9036251 - 10/06/08 07:59 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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what I consider wrong with suicide
lets see here
-for one i think it deals with a level of immaturity in alot of young people.
-another reason would be that even though suicide directly effects the individual, it destroys a family thus furthering the damage done. so your not really only harming yourself but others in the act of.
-I can see points to commit suicide, like loss of family or to avoid a more painful death. there are situations where i can say i will feel less bothered by the incident.
-my biggest reason is that your taking what i consider "the easy way out"
but before i go, i will say that i do have personel exp with it, as my sister attempted suicide when i was 7 years old. I did really know what it meant at the time, but i cherish our relationship. and to think by the philosophy on this board "she had the right to suicide" is just bs because that would have ruined my life as a kid and i would have been a completely different individual than i am today, for one i would have been a very depressing person.
ok phew thats my 2 cents.
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.....Healing Of People Everywhere.....
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9036317 - 10/06/08 08:18 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
That's my understanding. There is almost certainly different grades of depression with different causes. Some forms, the most serious ones, do not respond to CBT, because they have an underlying physiological cause. Until we get proper definitions and descriptions for the different grades of depression, it will be difficult to identify the correct treatment for each patient.
Actually, if you review the articles to which I've already linked, you will see that the evidence does not support this assertion. CBT is effective on all degrees of depression. All degrees of depression may have an underlying physiological cause, (accustomed neural pathway) and CBT changes this cause by re-training the brain.
The article regarding the use of brain scans to determine which patients will respond to CBT explains this more fully. If patients display a pattern of overactivity in one area, and underactivity in another (I can be more specific if you wish, but you may get more out of reading the literature on this issue), then they WILL benefit from CBT.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: johnm214]
#9036343 - 10/06/08 08:26 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Right now it appears that our moods are caused by our brain chemistry. That something else causes brain chemsitry is irrelevant.
It is irrelevant that our thoughts change our brain chemistry? For me, this concept is one of the most empowering I have ever heard. We create and sustain our emotional states by communicating with ourselves about what events mean.
OK, just in case that wasn't emphasized enough:
!!!!!!
We create and sustain our emotional states by communicating with ourselves about what events mean.
The chemicals within our brain are not activating themselves, they are not in control of the show. WE are in control of the show, or out of control if we choose to abdicate our responsibility.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9036537 - 10/06/08 09:26 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
The chemicals within our brain are not activating themselves, they are not in control of the show. WE are in control of the show, or out of control if we choose to abdicate our responsibility.
We are the chemicals within our brain. We can either modify them through external chemistry (such as pharmacological anti-depressants), or through a feedback loop of brain chemicals affecting brain chemicals.
There is no mysterious "we" present somewhere in the physical brain.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9036552 - 10/06/08 09:31 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think she used the word we to make reference to our conscious side.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9036610 - 10/06/08 09:45 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
The chemicals within our brain are not activating themselves, they are not in control of the show. WE are in control of the show, or out of control if we choose to abdicate our responsibility.
We are the chemicals within our brain. We can either modify them through external chemistry (such as pharmacological anti-depressants), or through a feedback loop of brain chemicals affecting brain chemicals.
There is no mysterious "we" present somewhere in the physical brain.
I never said that there was a mysterious we. It is not mysterious at all to recognize that I am initiating processes within my brain and body. Aren't you? The chemicals are the mode of communication, not the communicator.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9036633 - 10/06/08 09:50 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Sure, one can refer to themselves as I, but this is no more than a misnomer for a group of connected neural modules that together forms the illusion of consciousness.
The chemicals are both the mode of communication and the communicator. If the chemicals aren't us, then what are we?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9036650 - 10/06/08 09:54 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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The awareness which initiates and oversees and synthesizes our experiences is most likely physical, not chemical. The human "CPU" has access to all areas of the brain & to the rest of the body through the nervous system. It is not accurate to view our consciousness in terms of neurochemicals.
This is my favorite guess regarding which physical structure is the "CPU": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centromedian_nucleus
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9036665 - 10/06/08 09:57 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ah, I see; so you're saying we should include neurons, synapses, and chemicals in our definition of I.
Fair enough--I was too specific.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9036766 - 10/06/08 10:16 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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As most of our neurons are established prior to birth, it seems likely that our "I" exists as a neuronal structure. We are born with many more neurons than we will ever use, and most of them are selectively pruned during early childhood.
What we learn during our lifetime is represented in the axonal connections between neurons, and it is THIS portion of our cerebral physiology which we influence by what we think. We can reinforce these connections with habitual thoughts, creating a superhighway upon which future electrochemical signals can quickly travel. This is the mechanism of depression and anxiety disorders, as we create a literal "path of least resistance" for electrochemical signals to reach the amygdala.
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 7 months, 20 days
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9036829 - 10/06/08 10:30 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
As most of our neurons are established prior to birth
not true. it was once thought that neurons were so highly specialized that neurons did not divide, and therefore, new neurons were not produced.
now it is widely known that although neurons don't divide, neuronal precursor cells (neuronal stem cells), including glial cells, are constantly dividing and producing new neurons.
irrelevant to the discussion, but figured id make sure the information you are putting out is accurate
i learned this in my Fundamental Neurobiology course at the University of Iowa, which i am currently enrolled in. I was first exposed to this fact last semester, in my Intro to Neurobiology course.
neurons are still being produced in our brains at this very moment, which allows us to change the way we think and alter the current neuronal networks that already exist in our brain, allowing us to form new memories, lose old habits, and change our personalities
neuronal plasticity for the win!
--------------------
Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9036886 - 10/06/08 10:43 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
That's how far we've come. The link between depression and biochemistry is not even questioned any more.
Please stop making this so easy for me...
This is exactly my point, you prove it well.
We have indoctrinated around the belief that it's a one way condition. Yet the link between neuro-chemistry and consciousness is known to be an associative one, not exclusively cause and effect. We just choose to omit or gloss over that while we talk about which SSRI (or NEW SNRI! TRY ONE TODAY!) is the right one.
You've come so far that depression sufferers are not even allowed to question the truth. Just like how far the Christians came in preventing believers from ever questioning God.
In all honesty, I think it is an excellent illusion, ensuring roles for the neuro-chemical definition makers for years to come, and utter disbelief in the devout followers of any other path to salvation from their own minds.
It's a job well done, I really think this.
Look at how far you've come!
You don't even have to study the consciousness anymore to prove depression, you just look at chemicals under microscopes.
But you can't have me back.
--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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(Forgive me for not reading all of this post, it's just too damn long and I don't have the time. Hopefully, I'll be addressing something unique...)
Quote:
I think the general concensus is that suicide is selfish
This is partially true, but I also think that there is a general consensus that no "rational" person would commit suicide. Suicide has been made into the symptom of a mental disease. Apparently, suicide is an "objectively demonstrable departure from adaptive biological functioning." (The quote was a medical definition of a disease.) Indeed, I can see why this conclusion would be easily reached - death is very bad as far as biological functioning is concerned. (Although not necessarily bad for adaptive biological functioning, but that is a whole other issue.)
The belief that no rational person would commit suicide inevitably leads to the paternalistic view that suicidal people need to be prevented from acting upon their wish and that they must be "helped."
Plus, from a utilitarian perspective, suicide definitely is selfish and immoral. The suicidal person wishes to fulfill a desire that would cause immense suffering for others.
And, there is no doubt that we live in medicalized society which blends together utilitarianism and Christianity. Most people, even the religious, consider pain to be bad and pleasure to be good. This is a very hedonistic/utilitarian belief and quite contrary to the teachings of Christianity, which has a totally different rationale for "good" and "bad." Catholics especially frown on suicide, because of Saint Thomas Aquinas' philosophy of natural law - all things must run their natural course.
Too pull all this together, our culture is very biased towards suicide being wrong - utilitarianism and Christianity consider it immoral; to add to the wrongness of it, it is even considered a disease (or result of a mental disease or irrationality, etc.)
In some respects, the "general consensus" is correct. The problem is when this reasoning is transformed into a universal. Certainly, suicidal thoughts can be the result a mental disease, but that does not mean that every suicidal person is irrational. For example, what about a person that is suffering from an incurable disease? Wishing to escape constant and inevitable suffering does not seem irrational in the least. Should we physically prevent this person from committing suicide? I would even argue that many individuals diagnosed with depression or that consider themselves depressed are not irrational.
The problem with suicide is that it is an irreversible and permanent act. An irreversible, permanent action is usually a bad response to a transient problem, such as depression.
It seems impossible to create a universal statement about suicide that does not wrong some particular group - those with terminal illness, the depressed adolescent, the depressed widow, the suicide bomber, the psychotic, the prisoner, etc. All of these groups need to be approached differently. I think helping the depressed adolescent through suicidal times is charitable and noble, simply because the adolescent's potential to be happy and fulfilled in the future is so much higher than for other groups. If they die, they'll never be able to experience this. On the opposite side of the spectrum, preventing those with a terminal illness from ending their own life to escape suffering, like the Pro-Life movement advocates, seems downright heinous.
Personally, I think all suicidal people should be helped (in the most general sense of this word), some should be physically prevented from committing suicide, and others should be allowed to die. Ultimately, suicide is an individual's choice and I think this choice should be respected. (Except for suicide bombers - fuck those guys!)
Quote:
isnt it just as selfish to hang that guilt on someone
Yes. This method of suicide prevention is detestable. It is just adding pain to pain.
Quote:
because of our societal taboos we are affected differently by how that death is brought about. What does it matter if someone kills themselves?
If you strictly speaking about the people effected by the suicide and not the suicidal person, then I agree in some sense. Although, different deaths arouse different emotions - a murder is going to make people sad as well as angry/revengeful, an accidental death is going to make people sad and possibly powerless (a "victim of circumstances" as Curly would say), etc. But, regardless of peoples emotions, death is still just death. And it is inevitable.
Oh, and all those categories are very important to insurance companies!
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9036949 - 10/06/08 11:01 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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There are two things I would like to note about your position.
If it doesn't work for someone then you and Ice both say 'they just didn't want to be cured' as if people want to suffer.
And then you say that depression is due to erroneous thinking yet you fail to address that most people get over it over time without drugs or CBT.
If I did not consciously change my thinking and got better, then doesn't that speak to a different causal agent altogether?
Would you agree that women, in general, are more likely to be irritable or emotional during their period? Must be screwed up thinking and not hormonal fluctuation.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9036957 - 10/06/08 11:04 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PookztA said:
i learned this in my Fundamental Neurobiology course at the University of Iowa, which i am currently enrolled in. I was first exposed to this fact last semester, in my Intro to Neurobiology course.
Extremely off-topic, but have you ever been to one of MindOutPsyde's Psytrance parties? (MindOutPsyde was started by an aspiring neurosurgeon and a few others from the University of Iowa. They've hosted a bunch of psytrance parties the last few years.)
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9036959 - 10/06/08 11:06 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Note that I said "most," not "all." I'm well aware of our ability to generate new brain cells. To be clear, though, these new cells are NOT being created from glial cells. Neural stem cells are solely responsible for neurogenesis. Interestingly enough, neurogenesis appears to be suppressed or decreased by depression.
What is important to remember is that we are far more affected by our axonal network than we are by the presence of new neurons. It is equivocal whether these new neurons actually promote learning, as it has not been adequately demonstrated that this is a benefit of neurogenesis. New neurons appear to be restricted to the hippocampus and the olfactory bulb, so their participation in neuroplasticity is limited.
Neuroplasticity is far more dependent upon reconfiguration of the axonal connections between existing neurons, which are responsive to our thoughts. When we continue to think in rigid, habituated ways, we simply broaden the existing connections. But new, innovative thoughts must generate new connections, and thus reconfigure our neural network.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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The suicidal person wishes to fulfill a desire that would cause immense suffering for others.
So two children see their mother die of cancer or suicide. One is devastated and the other relieved and grateful.
So now I want you to show evidence that your quote above bears any resemblence to the truth.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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I'll reply to your questions when you provide some sources for your assertions.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9036970 - 10/06/08 11:08 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
One is devastated and the other relieved and grateful.
One gets left a huge chunk o' cash and the other gets zilch.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9036991 - 10/06/08 11:12 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
I'll reply to your questions when you provide some sources for your assertions.
You can't ask that. It's just too much.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Quote:
If it doesn't work for someone then you and Ice both say 'they just didn't want to be cured' as if people want to suffer.
Maybe some people do want to suffer, but that's besides the point.
Getting to know yourself and facing your fears and weaknesses is really scary, especially when you have no experience on how to do it, so I guess it makes sense to say that some people just give up. It's not like the results are instantaneous and the long wait makes that fear amplify. I have experienced this first hand and I remember that I really didn't even suspect how much it will pay off, and how the whole matter looks from within. Things can look very distorted and what feels like some evil demon grabbing you and throwing you all over can turn into you becoming more and more familiar with your lacks and doubts, which can lead to a very good outcome if you insist enough.
So why are you just assuming that people who never get over their depression are either seriously ill, or they want to suffer?
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9037004 - 10/06/08 11:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Do I really need a reference on womans' mood swings and menses or my own experience of recuperation?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9037019 - 10/06/08 11:19 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
The suicidal person wishes to fulfill a desire that would cause immense suffering for others.
So two children see their mother die of cancer or suicide. One is devastated and the other relieved and grateful.
So now I want you to show evidence that your quote above bears any resemblence to the truth.
Huh? Did you actually read my post or just skim it to find a phrase you thought you could disagree with? I already addressed this point.
Quote:
The problem is when this reasoning is transformed into a universal.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (10/06/08 11:21 AM)
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Do I really need a reference on womans' mood swings and menses or my own experience of recuperation?
I'm asking you for sources which support your earlier assertion that cognitive changes had no effect on depression. As I have kindly provided sources which disprove this assertion, it is now up to you to provide sources which prove it. I have not claimed that humans are unaffected by hormones or neurotransmitters, nor shall I (that would be quite absurd).
However, as you have raised the question of the apparent inevitability of women being negatively impacted by their hormones, I will state for the record that the female reproductive cycle does not inevitably cause mood swings and irritability. Hormonal shifts can influence moods, but they do not create them all by themselves.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9037075 - 10/06/08 11:35 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I have to leave and will provide some when I get back.
Once again I ask you, do you believe that a woman experiencing an extreme hormonal shift can talk herself back to 'normalcy'? Must she examine her potty training when she was three?
Ice told me that taking X gave him the best feeling in the world. Not by creating new thought patterns, but by manipulating his brain chemistry. And yet he denies the very obvious inverse of this.
Doesn't gel.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Quote:
Once again I ask you, do you believe that a woman experiencing an extreme hormonal shift can talk herself back to 'normalcy'? Must she examine her potty training when she was three?
Do you know what you're talking about? The cases in which women experience severe mental problems during their cycle are very rare, and a big part of them are know to have a history of mental imbalances in general.
And yes, they can be controlled.
Quote:
Ice told me that taking X gave him the best feeling in the world. Not by creating new thought patterns, but by manipulating his brain chemistry. And yet he denies the very obvious inverse of this.
Nobody in here denied that E has an obvious effect on the human mind, however, even that experience is still decided by the person itself. It's not like all that feeling of well being is based on nothing, and also, it's not like that feeling is a guarantee. There are cases in which people experience severe anxiety during the experience, or turn the experience from blissful to frightening, with the aid of their own thoughts.
I'm wondering why you insist on bringing the ecstasy matter up all the time. 
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Examining potty training is not part of Cognitive therapy. Yes, a woman experiencing the normal hormonal shifts involved in the reproductive cycle can "talk" herself out of it OR "talk" herself into it.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9037270 - 10/06/08 12:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Examining potty training is not part of Cognitive therapy. Yes, a woman experiencing the normal hormonal shifts involved in the reproductive cycle can "talk" herself out of it OR "talk" herself into it.
Yup. My Lady taught herself how to do this (praise the Lord!) just by observing her thoughts. She didn't even know any psychotherapy. In the end, it comes down to this: the brain changes in response to stimulation, whether its behavioral or chemical (environmental stimulation) or cognition (self-stimulation.) Some stimulation is more power than others, but it is all still stimulation. You cannot will yourself to become less hormonal or more compassionate, but you can train yourself behaviorally and/or cognitively to do so.
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PookztA
Medical Student
Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 1,225
Loc: Illinois
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9037463 - 10/06/08 12:56 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Note that I said "most," not "all." I'm well aware of our ability to generate new brain cells. To be clear, though, these new cells are NOT being created from glial cells. Neural stem cells are solely responsible for neurogenesis. Interestingly enough, neurogenesis appears to be suppressed or decreased by depression.
What is important to remember is that we are far more affected by our axonal network than we are by the presence of new neurons. It is equivocal whether these new neurons actually promote learning, as it has not been adequately demonstrated that this is a benefit of neurogenesis. New neurons appear to be restricted to the hippocampus and the olfactory bulb, so their participation in neuroplasticity is limited.
Neuroplasticity is far more dependent upon reconfiguration of the axonal connections between existing neurons, which are responsive to our thoughts. When we continue to think in rigid, habituated ways, we simply broaden the existing connections. But new, innovative thoughts must generate new connections, and thus reconfigure our neural network.
very true!
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Abrahm
Spreading Psytrance & Love in the Midwest USA
Expand Your Consciousness.
9/11 Challenge: Explain the Evidence http://pookzta.blogspot.com
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
Examining potty training is not part of Cognitive therapy. Yes, a woman experiencing the normal hormonal shifts involved in the reproductive cycle can "talk" herself out of it OR "talk" herself into it.
Yup. My Lady taught herself how to do this (praise the Lord!) just by observing her thoughts. She didn't even know any psychotherapy. In the end, it comes down to this: the brain changes in response to stimulation, whether its behavioral or chemical (environmental stimulation) or cognition (self-stimulation.) Some stimulation is more power than others, but it is all still stimulation. You cannot will yourself to become less hormonal or more compassionate, but you can train yourself behaviorally and/or cognitively to do so.
Exactly! Though you can alter your personal chemistry through diet and exercise, in addition to pursuing cognitive changes. In fact, it really helps to reduce the "push" towards habituated states if you do as much as you can to support your physical health. It can be an uphill battle to make big cognitive changes while you are effectively poisoning your brain with high blood sugar, excessive animal-source fats & inadequate essential fatty acids.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: PookztA]
#9037883 - 10/06/08 02:30 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PookztA said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
As most of our neurons are established prior to birth
not true. it was once thought that neurons were so highly specialized that neurons did not divide, and therefore, new neurons were not produced.
now it is widely known that although neurons don't divide, neuronal precursor cells (neuronal stem cells), including glial cells, are constantly dividing and producing new neurons.
irrelevant to the discussion, but figured id make sure the information you are putting out is accurate
i learned this in my Fundamental Neurobiology course at the University of Iowa, which i am currently enrolled in. I was first exposed to this fact last semester, in my Intro to Neurobiology course.
neurons are still being produced in our brains at this very moment, which allows us to change the way we think and alter the current neuronal networks that already exist in our brain, allowing us to form new memories, lose old habits, and change our personalities
neuronal plasticity for the win!
Neuroscience represent
Veritas is still correct though - most of our neurons are established prior to birth. The neurons that form in later life as a result of the neural stem cells is only a tiny proportion of the total number, and most are localised to the hippocampus, the site of learning and memory. The neurons are used in forming new memories, but they also - for some reason - affect depression. If you eliminate the body's ability to produce new brains cells, severe depression results.
As an aside to this aside, no one has ever seen neural stem cells. We just know they must be there. But we're getting very close.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9037929 - 10/06/08 02:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you eliminate the body's ability to produce new brains cells, severe depression results.
Or does depression suppress neurogenesis?
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9038054 - 10/06/08 03:52 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Possibly, but there's substantial evidence that stress suppresses neurogenesis. The link between stress and depression is probably through modulation of neurogenesis.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9038057 - 10/06/08 03:54 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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It seems that stress suppresses everything except blood pressure.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
The suicidal person wishes to fulfill a desire that would cause immense suffering for others.
So two children see their mother die of cancer or suicide. One is devastated and the other relieved and grateful.
So now I want you to show evidence that your quote above bears any resemblence to the truth.
Huh? Did you actually read my post or just skim it to find a phrase you thought you could disagree with? I already addressed this point.
Quote:
The problem is when this reasoning is transformed into a universal.
I just skimmed looking for something to disagree with. It's about all I do here.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9039489 - 10/06/08 08:38 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9039507 - 10/06/08 08:44 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
It can be an uphill battle to make big cognitive changes while you are effectively poisoning your brain with high blood sugar, excessive animal-source fats & inadequate essential fatty acids.
Once again, I am missing your point. If one can talk themselves into mental health from non-health or balance from imbalance, then dietary changes should not be necessary.
Seems like you are saying: if your body is in perfect working order then your body will be in perfect working order.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Not responding until you post some sources, Mister.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9039588 - 10/06/08 08:59 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The cases in which women experience severe mental problems during their cycle are very rare, and a big part of them are know to have a history of mental imbalances in general.
Premenstrual Syndrome (PMS) and Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder (PMDD)
Many women experience symptoms of Premenstrual Syndrome (PMS). In most instances the mood symptoms and emotional components of PMS are the most troubling. To women in such cases, PMS is often referred to as Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder (PMDD).
Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder is a more severe form of PMS, affecting 5-10% of women in their reproductive years. In contrast to PMS, PMDD is characterized by more significant premenstrual mood disturbance that can seriously impact relationships and impair functioning. Many women with PMDD experience clinical levels of depression or anxiety during the week or two before each menstrual cycle. It is not uncommon that the emotional symptoms of depression anxiety and irritability can seriously interfere with normal functioning and relationships.
Common symptoms include: irritability, depressed mood, anxiety, or mood swings. Mood symptoms are only present for a specific period of time, during the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle. Symptoms emerge one to two weeks before menses and resolve completely with the onset of menses. Women with PMDD should experience a symptom-free interval between menses and ovulation. An estimated 40% of women who seek treatment for PMDD actually have a premenstrual exacerbation of an underlying mood disorder rather than PMDD. Therefore, it is important for patients to be carefully evaluated for the presence of an underlying mood disorder in order to develop the best treatment plan.
The point is that there is no evidence that women decide to do negative self talk during this time and then positive self talk after the mood disorder passes.
Yet you and V both seem to believe that positive self talk will bring them out of this.
Perhaps those with sever head trauma that have totally changed personalities can also talk themselves back to normalcy.
Quote:
I'm wondering why you insist on bringing the ecstasy matter up all the time.
I explained it pretty clearly.
If either depression or ecstasy can be induced in otherwise healthy people solely through chemical means with behaviour modification, then perhaps those undergoing severe depression MAY NOT BE VICTIMS OF THEIR OWN NEGATIVE SELF TALK, but some other factor altogether.
As an extreme, but relevant example, The Mad Hatter character in 'Alice in Wonderland' is loosely based upon a real condition; i.e. mercury poisoning as mercury was once used in the making of hats. Could such a person use CBT to return to sanity?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Still no sources. Show me the science!
CBT found to be as effective as the most-effective medication (fluoxitine) in treatment of PMDD.
http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/7714309
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9039645 - 10/06/08 09:15 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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You want the science?
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE SCIENCE!
*spittle flying off in all directions*
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9039661 - 10/06/08 09:18 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Not responding until you post some sources, Mister.
May I reference your own reference to Phineas Cage?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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You mean Phineas Gage? What does he have to do with the cognitive functionality of a brain which has not been impaled?
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9039761 - 10/06/08 09:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
What does he have to do with the cognitive functionality of a brain which has not been impaled?
So you finally admit there are limits to repairing a brain with CBT. Finally we are making progress.
Now we can argue over where the dividing line is.
Etiology of Depression
link
Exact cause is unknown. Heredity has an uncertain role; depression is more common among 1st-degree relatives of depressed patients, and concordance between identical twins is high. Hereditary genetic polymorphisms for the serotonin transporter active in the brain may be triggered by stress. People who have a history of child abuse or other major life stresses and have the short allele for this transporter are about twice as likely to develop depression as those who have the long allele.
Other theories focus on changes in neurotransmitter levels, including abnormal regulation of cholinergic, catecholaminergic (noradrenergic or dopaminergic), and serotonergic (5-hydroxytryptamine) neurotransmission. Neuroendocrine deregulation may be a factor, with particular emphasis on 3 axes: hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal, hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid, and growth hormone.
Psychosocial factors also seem involved. Major life stresses, especially separations and losses, commonly precede episodes of major depression; however, such events do not usually cause lasting, severe depression except in people predisposed to a mood disorder.
People who have had an episode of major depression are at higher risk of subsequent episodes. People who are introverted and who have anxious tendencies may be more likely to develop a depressive disorder. Such people often lack the social skills to adjust to life pressures. Depression may also develop in people with other mental disorders.
Women are at higher risk, but no theory explains why. Possible factors include greater exposure to or heightened response to daily stresses, higher levels of monoamine oxidase (the enzyme that degrades neurotransmitters considered important for mood), and endocrine changes that occur with menstruation and at menopause. In postpartum depression (see Postpartum Care: Management in the Hospital), symptoms develop within 4 wk after delivery; endocrine changes have been implicated, but the specific cause is unknown. Also, thyroid function is more commonly dysregulated in women.
Can people also talk themselves into having the longer allele or into regulating their thyroid?
How far are you saying it goes?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Show me the support for your assertion that cognitive methods are ineffective in the treatment of depression. If they are effective, then it apparently doesn't matter whether someone has a defective allele or an inactive thyroid.
If you review my posts, I never said that humans are not influenced by neurochemistry. In fact, I said that we were. What I said is that it is possible to alter your own chemistry and neurophysiology through cognitive therapy.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9039789 - 10/06/08 09:42 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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But which has a higher efficacy in the case of severe depression? I mean, ideally, one would like to cure depression using solely cognitive-behavioral techniques, but which is more effective on its own: CBT, or antidepressants?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9039806 - 10/06/08 09:46 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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From the link I posted earlier:
Quote:
The preponderance of the available scientific evidence shows that psychological interventions, particularly cognitive-behavioral therapies (CBTs), are generally as effective or more effective than medications in the treatment of depression, even if severe, for both vegetative and social adjustment symptoms, especially when patient-rate measures and long-term follow-up are considered.
CBT also has a lower drop-out rate, because it does not have the severe side-effects of medications.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9039815 - 10/06/08 09:48 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Are vegetative and social adjustment symptoms the only measures that depression is ranked by?
Or are these the only aspects of depression that CBT is equivalent to or better than medication?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9039865 - 10/06/08 10:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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What I find interesting is how many times you ducked my point.
So I will state it one last time or I will have to invoke Icelander's Ruling. (No links required).
The basic theory behind CBT is that a thought precedes a mood. Change the thought, change the mood.
Agreed?
Poor diet, hormones, brain trauma, environmental factors, thyroid, and other physiologic imbalances, etc. are not thoughts.
Do you agree?
Do you agree that any and all of those have some impact on mood?
Yes or no.
So some people's mood changes in response to something other than their thought patterns.
Agree or disagree?
In summation, if someone is NOT indulging in negative thought fantasies (with the understanding that we are all somewhat neurotic) and they become depressed, then there are no negative thoughts to reprogram.
Comprende?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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I have responded to your questions several times. Yes, other factors influence mood. However, the fact that cognitive therapies are at least as effective as medications suggests that cognition is as influential as chemistry. Where are your studies showing that it is not?
Don't accuse me of ducking when I've responded to your questions & you haven't produced a single shred of evidence. 
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bradley
Stranger
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9039926 - 10/06/08 10:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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But if someone isn't negative self talking, doesn't that beg the question, "what the hell is happening with these studies??"
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9039936 - 10/06/08 10:15 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Lets's see what these researchers have to say about CBT
LINK THIS! 
here.
*selected excerpts for brevity*
OBJECTIVE: Although cognitive behavior therapy is a widely accepted treatment for depression, the problematic nature of efficacy studies is insufficiently recognized.
METHOD: The authors reviewed original studies and quantitative analyses on the use of cognitive behavior therapy for depression. RESULTS: The authors suggested that claims for cognitive behavior therapy’s efficacy on depression have been overstated, questioned whether its efficacy fits within its theoretical underpinning, and argued against viewing cognitive behavior therapy as a universal rather than a targeted strategy.
CONCLUSIONS: Although cognitive behavior therapy may act more by its nonspecific therapeutic ingredients, the authors argued that by testing cognitive behavior therapy’s efficacy in heterogeneous study groups, rather than in specific subgroups, failure to differentiate it from control therapies may have been ensured.
It is difficult to compare individual controlled studies of cognitive behavior therapy because of methodological problems associated with a psychotherapy that is variably defined and administered. Assessment of response is also problematic. For example, improvements associated with cognitive behavior therapy have been claimed to occur early in therapy (3), at mid-term (4), and after a significant delay (5), raising questions about the appropriate endpoint for analysis and exacerbating the usual limitations of meta-analysis. Although the treatment efficacy of cognitive behavior therapy in the acute phase of depression has been evaluated in numerous reviews (e.g., references 1 and 6) and meta-analyses (e.g., references 7–10), an inconsistency across reports is worthy of emphasis.
Despite such concerns, a conservative interpretation suggests that cognitive behavior therapy is efficacious because it is superior to no treatment or the wait list control condition. In terms of superiority to other manualized psychotherapies or to basic clinical management, we suggest that the verdict of the efficacy of cognitive behavior therapy as not proven holds (the Scottish judicial system has an option of "not proven" as opposed to "guilty" or "not guilty," which is a useful call in this instance). Its efficacy may reflect nonspecific ingredients common to any psychotherapy.
As discussed, there is no clear consensus whether cognitive behavior therapy is superior or inferior to other psychotherapies,
In summary, the theoretic basis for cognitive behavior therapy in depression is difficult to validate. We suggest that viewing cognitive behavior therapy as potentially effective across heterogeneous expressions of depression leads to its being tested in those in whom a cognitive predisposition may be of quite variable relevance. A state influence model might apply in most instances and a diathesis stress model in only a minority.
It is uncertain whether cognitive behavior therapy is equally efficacious in depression of varying severity.
The depressive disorders essentially comprise three classes—psychotic, melancholic, and a heterogeneous residue of nonmelancholic disorders. The first two classes are generally viewed as more biological disorders, having a low placebo response and superior responses to physical treatments such as drugs and ECT.
...there is still not yet compelling evidence that they (i.e., those with melancholia) will respond as well to psychotherapy as pharmacotherapy
As noted earlier, the authors of the NIMH Treatment of Depression Collaborative Research Program study observed (28) that "it appears that the least cognitively impaired patients responded more favorably to cognitive therapy," challenging any effect of specific cognitive behavior therapy on underlying cognitive dysfunction. More important, symptomatic improvement may occur in the course of cognitive behavior therapy before cognitive restructuring (3). If initial improvement reflects the impact of hope and other nonspecific therapeutic ingredients, to what extent is the improvement trajectory further influenced by any specific influence of cognitive behavior therapy?
Conclusion
Cognitive behavior therapy has long been accepted as a credible therapy for depression. Despite high use and numerous evaluative studies, its efficacy (both acute phase and prophylactic) remains to be clarified, while proposed mechanisms of action may not be consistent with cognitive theories of depression.
One comment that bears repeating: "it appears that the least cognitively impaired patients responded more favorably to cognitive therapy,".
Hmmm, so the least dysfuncional patients responded better than the most dysfunctional. This is counter to just about any other medical modality and counter to the basic premise of CBT.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9039956 - 10/06/08 10:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Don't accuse me of ducking when I've responded to your questions & you haven't produced a single shred of evidence.
I have produced much evidence for the strong correlation between chemical factors and depression.
Now that I have provided a valid clinical and unbiased study of CBT, will you change your mind?
Of course not - emotional investment and all...
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: bradley]
#9039959 - 10/06/08 10:21 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Valid point, but as she has already ducked this issue at every turn...
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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The American Journal of Psychiatry is industry-sponsored research.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9040062 - 10/06/08 10:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The preponderance of the available scientific evidence shows that psychological interventions, particularly cognitive-behavioral therapies (CBTs), are generally as effective or more effective than medications in the treatment of depression,
In this article link Kirsch’s analysis that antidepressants do not have a clinically meaningful advantage over placebo (”The Emperor’s New Drugs“) has been almost universally accepted within the scientific community. Kirsch’s and his colleagues invoked the Freedom of Information Act to obtain access to the FDA database of controlled trials used in the initial approval for the most popular antidepressants. According to researcher David O. Antonuccio in his article “Antidepressants: A Triumph of Marketing Over Science?“, it is difficult to imagine a database that would offer a more fair opportunity to evaluate the efficacy of antidepressants.
The fact that Kirsch found that antidepressants were no more effective than placebo is surprising, in a way, because these results come from studies that were underwritten and designed by the drug companies themselves under conditions most favorable to the active drug condition. In other words, the deck was stacked from the start in favor of the drugs, and they still didn’t come out ahead.
So CBT is as effective as something that doesn't work.
Yay, we are all cured! 
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Please show where the flaw in the research lies.
Are you saying psychiatrist researchers would not want to understand which therapies are best?
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Are you saying psychiatrist researchers would not want to understand which therapies are best?
Yes. They have a vested interest in finding out that a specific therapy is best. Want to guess which therapy?
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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1. An accusation is not counterpoint.
2. Research, validation/invalidation have no place in science?
3. Point out the flaws in the study.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,299
Loc: Americas
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9040361 - 10/07/08 12:21 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Right now it appears that our moods are caused by our brain chemistry. That something else causes brain chemsitry is irrelevant.
It is irrelevant that our thoughts change our brain chemistry? For me, this concept is one of the most empowering I have ever heard. We create and sustain our emotional states by communicating with ourselves about what events mean.
OK, just in case that wasn't emphasized enough:
!!!!!!
We create and sustain our emotional states by communicating with ourselves about what events mean.
The chemicals within our brain are not activating themselves, they are not in control of the show. WE are in control of the show, or out of control if we choose to abdicate our responsibility.
No, it is irrelevant to the inquiry re: the causual relationship between mood and brain chemistry that their is a causual chain extending from a more fundamental cause to brain chemistry to mood. I never suggested thoughts may not change brain chemistry.
That brain chemistry causes mood doesn't mean that other things don't cause brain chemistry that in turn affects mood.
I'm saying that an effect may have several causes with a linear casual chain, and it doesn't abrogate the role of the most proximate cause any more than it does a more distant cause.
As to your later point, there are chains of effects from the release of a neurotransmiter. I think its untrue to suggest our brain is not activating itself. And while you can trace a causual chain untill it leaves the brain, that doesn't mean that, say, a schizophrenic doesn't have a cascade of events triggered by some chemical event. That's not to say a normal brain doesn't have such. So I understand your point that thought affects mood, but that doesn't mean the brain doesn't act on its own.
But this may be getting in to the semantics of cause and effect. I'm just saying that if A causes B which causes C, then A causes C and B causes C.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,299
Loc: Americas
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9040404 - 10/07/08 12:38 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Note that I said "most," not "all." I'm well aware of our ability to generate new brain cells. To be clear, though, these new cells are NOT being created from glial cells. Neural stem cells are solely responsible for neurogenesis. Interestingly enough, neurogenesis appears to be suppressed or decreased by depression.
What is important to remember is that we are far more affected by our axonal network than we are by the presence of new neurons. It is equivocal whether these new neurons actually promote learning, as it has not been adequately demonstrated that this is a benefit of neurogenesis. New neurons appear to be restricted to the hippocampus and the olfactory bulb, so their participation in neuroplasticity is limited.
Neuroplasticity is far more dependent upon reconfiguration of the axonal connections between existing neurons, which are responsive to our thoughts. When we continue to think in rigid, habituated ways, we simply broaden the existing connections. But new, innovative thoughts must generate new connections, and thus reconfigure our neural network.
If addressed later I appologize, but:
Your original point seemed to suggest that we are born as we are, being us or 'I' as was said, due to a posited glut of neurons set in place that die off leaving us with our matured selves. Your refrence to neural prunning is contrary to this prior assertion. The plasticity of synaptic sites appears to be what you were thinking of rather than some die off of neurons. I seem to have learned that neural die-off thing too at one point, however; now I'm not aware of a physiologically relevant die-off relevant to our brain development relative to this synaptic pruning you mentioned.
I think it may be a misconception we both learned along the way. I know neuronal numbers do decrease before birth or thereabouts, maybe postnatal I don't know, and likely for some time later, but I'm not sure if its known or thought this is at all relevant relative to the other changes we undergo during these times.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,299
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
The American Journal of Psychiatry is industry-sponsored research.
Why don't you say what you want to say in one post.
Are you sayin gthe journal altered this article? That they were secretly the authors? That the methods were bad or the conclusions unsound? The evidence made up?
Are you saying that "industry" pays for every article in that journal? I don't know what your point is as to this specific article. Nobody cares about the journal.
Or are we just arguing that we should make taxpayers pay for every new drug being evaluated and/or researched (with or without the FDA) all through the pipeline? Somehow I don't think socializing such is in our nation's best interest. Guess we could just forget about reasearch
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
1. An accusation is not counterpoint.
2. Research, validation/invalidation have no place in science?
3. Point out the flaws in the study.
1.) The APA makes over $60 million dollars each year from pharmaceutical companies.
2.) Huh?
3.) You didn't provide a study, just an extremely biased review piece.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: johnm214]
#9040562 - 10/07/08 02:04 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Are you sayin gthe journal altered this article? That they were secretly the authors?
I don't even know what you're talking about here? The article probably wasn't ghost written, although you can never know. If they did edit it, there would be no way of knowing, because essentially the APA and AJP are the same organization.
Quote:
That the methods were bad or the conclusions unsound? The evidence made up?
The evidence is highly biased. Given the extremely large volume of clinical and experimental data that exists, it is easy to find support for a particular opinion. I could easily pop a hundred articles out of a search engine that disprove this articles position. Most honest psychiatrists and psychologists have given up on this approach. If a person wants to make the broad claim that CBT is not effective, they're going to need to provide a meta-analysis with a humongous sample to prove this.
Quote:
Are you saying that "industry" pays for every article in that journal? I don't know what your point is as to this specific article. Nobody cares about the journal.
Most of the psychiatrists working for the APA also work for pharmaceutical companies. If CBT is a better treatment for depression than medications, they lose funding.
Quote:
Or are we just arguing that we should make taxpayers pay for every new drug being evaluated and/or researched (with or without the FDA) all through the pipeline? Somehow I don't think socializing such is in our nation's best interest. Guess we could just forget about reasearch
No, we aren't arguing about that.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Still much supposition, but not a single refutation.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Don't accuse me of ducking when I've responded to your questions & you haven't produced a single shred of evidence.
I have produced much evidence for the strong correlation between chemical factors and depression.
Now that I have provided a valid clinical and unbiased study of CBT, will you change your mind?
Of course not - emotional investment and all...
Valid, clinical & unbiased? Sure, if you say so. This review of the literature is highly selective. None of the major studies of CBT were included in their "comprehensive" analysis of CBT research. As a Psychology major, I am quite familiar with the rules regarding a review of the literature. This article clearly disregards those rules. Fail. 
Please note that I have continually acknowledged the chemical component of depression. You keep pretending that I am ducking this issue, or denying that it exists. One more time: I AGREE THAT THERE IS A CHEMICAL COMPONENT TO DEPRESSION. Was that clear enough?
What you've claimed is that cognitive methods have no effect on depression. I've presented clear evidence that this is not true. Now you're saying that anti-depressants are also completely ineffective in the treatment of depression, and pretending that your citation supported this assertion. If you'll read it over again, it clearly states that mild depression does not show a clinically-significant response to anti-depressants. This is far from proof that neither anti-depressants nor CBT are effective in the treatment of depression.
I'm not sure why you are so emotionally invested in believing that I am emotionally invested. I've stated several times that I agree that there are many factors involved in depression. The difference is, I'm also stating that we can take control of many of these factors through cognitive changes and lifestyle changes. I've provided support for this assertion, yet you continue to slant this debate by claiming that I am ducking your questions & failing to refute your arguments. WTF??
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Quote:
The point is that there is no evidence that women decide to do negative self talk during this time and then positive self talk after the mood disorder passes.
Yet you and V both seem to believe that positive self talk will bring them out of this.
Perhaps those with sever head trauma that have totally changed personalities can also talk themselves back to normalcy.
Perhaps you're giving my words a new interpretation, because I have never said that women are not affected by PMS. What I said was that it is not something that awful and uncontrollable, and that, if the woman has the intention to get out of it, she can reason her way out. Also I have said that those who don't (the so-called "Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder" ), usually seem to have a general problem with handling their emotions properly.
Here Is more information on it:
Quote:
There are 3 broad approaches to treating PMDD. While most experts recommend a combination of all 3, there have been no scientific studies to determine if combination treatment is really the best approach. It is likely that the best approach or combination of approaches will vary from woman to woman based on things like symptom severity and which symptoms are most troublesome.
Here are the 3 approaches with some examples of each:
1. Medications - including antidepressants, antianxiety drugs, analgesics, hormones and diuretics.
2. Psychobehavioral - including exercise and psychotherapies (cognitive-behavioral, coping skills training, relaxation).
3. Nutritional - including diet modification, vitamins, minerals and herbal preparations.
While the medication treatment is one of the three options, cognitive therapy and diet modifications are also two other suggested therapies. Now you personally admitted that medical treatment is ineffective, so I don't understand where you're trying to get with all that. You insist that there is a chemical imbalance taking place in depressions, but I have never stated otherwise. What I have said was that this can be changed through personal means (a change of life style and attitude), as opposed to anti depressants which don't work anyways. :shrug3:
I also have my personal experience, and I have experienced both sides of the story. When I let myself carried away by those feelings everything feels out of control (and we all know how misleading feelings can be, especially when one is being deprived of reasoning ), and each time I am staying focused and reason my way out of it, everything works just fine.
My mother however, who has a very irrational personality and usually has strong emotions about everything, could never get out of her PMS, exactly because she refuses to apply critical thinking to her emotions, because she thinks that it is entirely wrong to deny what's natural (aka emotions ).
Quote:
If either depression or ecstasy can be induced in otherwise healthy people solely through chemical means with behaviour modification, then perhaps those undergoing severe depression MAY NOT BE VICTIMS OF THEIR OWN NEGATIVE SELF TALK, but some other factor altogether.
No again.
In the E case, there is strong evidence to show what's causing the ecstatic feelings to someone (the pill - without it there would be no effects), while in a depression case there is nothing palpable to be found as a cause for it. Also, like I have already stated, one CAN talk oneself out of feeling good while rolling, directly into a state of anxiety and chaos, solely by the power of their thoughts, which is prove enough that the same thing can go for one talking their way out of depression.
Moreso, "perhaps" and "some other facts" are way too vague terms to be taken to account.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: johnm214]
#9041549 - 10/07/08 09:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Your original point seemed to suggest that we are born as we are, being us or 'I' as was said, due to a posited glut of neurons set in place that die off leaving us with our matured selves.
Erm, no, I don't think that I said that, because that is not what I believe. What I said was that the "I" who observes and synthesizes and coordinates our experiences is probably based in a neuronal structure (rather than neurochemical) because the majority of our neurons are not replaced during our lifetime.
It makes more sense that our basic awareness and sense of self would be based in a permanent structure, doesn't it? What we learn & the overall personality structure we develop is created through the axonal connections between existing neurons. We are born with an "excess" of neurons, and those which are not activated during our critical periods of growth do die off.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9041656 - 10/07/08 10:07 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Don't accuse me of ducking when I've responded to your questions & you haven't produced a single shred of evidence.
And this from the poster who demands proofs. Of course it's different when he has to do it.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: SneezingPenis] 1
#9041692 - 10/07/08 10:16 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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So from my experience and in talking to others IMO, early childhood trauma causes the stressors that eventually result in an out of balance brain chemistry leading to depression I think there is plenty of evidence of constant stress causing chemical imbalance. This was true in my case. Because of the survival programs used to deal with this stress and how long lived they were it is very difficult sometimes to alter them or implant new ones with sufficient strength to over come them. It's much easier to follow the path of least resistance and keep using programs that we know well. Why would I want to exercise if I'm depressed or eat healthy non comfort foods or talk to myself in a rational way? It takes a huge effort to change once the chemical balance in the brain and body is off and unskillful emotional programs are in place. Yet some manage it. Often the hardest part is to admit to oneself what really happened in childhood and to disengage from the people, guilt, shame, and stress of that time.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
Edited by Icelander (10/07/08 10:26 AM)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9041736 - 10/07/08 10:24 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
From the link I posted earlier:
Quote:
The preponderance of the available scientific evidence shows that psychological interventions, particularly cognitive-behavioral therapies (CBTs), are generally as effective or more effective than medications in the treatment of depression, even if severe, for both vegetative and social adjustment symptoms, especially when patient-rate measures and long-term follow-up are considered.
CBT also has a lower drop-out rate, because it does not have the severe side-effects of medications.
Quote:
The Cypher said:
Are vegetative and social adjustment symptoms the only measures that depression is ranked by?
Or are these the only aspects of depression that CBT is equivalent to or better than medication?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9041799 - 10/07/08 10:35 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Sorry, I missed your follow-up question! 
Yes, vegetative (or neurovegetative) and social adjustment symptoms are the measures used to diagnose depression. It would be fairly accurate to classify these measures as "negative physical changes" and "negative emotional changes."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9042290 - 10/07/08 12:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
One more time: I AGREE THAT THERE IS A CHEMICAL COMPONENT TO DEPRESSION. Was that clear enough?
Yet you keep repeating that addressing dysfunctional thinking EVEN WHEN THERE MAY BE NO DYSFUNCTIONAL THINKING, is helpful.
This makes no sense.
You asked me to present a counter link and I did. Now you want to to find a counter link that you agree with - an impossible task as I knew it would be.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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nonwo
truth seeker
Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1,431
Loc: southern usa
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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someone else has to clean up the mess
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yellow red black and white cometogether as humans and fallow the path the creater intended
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tripp23
Kratom Freak
Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2,700
Loc: Florida, US
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9042314 - 10/07/08 12:04 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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i always wonder stuff like this.. what gives anybody a right to tell another that any of those things are wrong. im not saying it isnt but im very curious about this. there is basically no proof that suicide or taking another's life is wrong. if it is so wrong then say a person that killed another for no intentional reason, nothing bad happens to him through out his life. sure, we say there is a hell that we may go to for those things but does anybody fully know? i think not.. what is one that kills another is a way of god's actual plan of saying it's their time to go. does anybody see where im coming from?
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"take thy medicine you filthy swine and you'll see that the world is in fact divine!"
Where does the world go when we close our eyes?
Experience my nightmarish first time of smoking Ganja!
"I "cheated" on my gf UPDATED WITH PICS *DELETED"
Post deleted by Anonymous
Reason for deletion: FML
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: tripp23]
#9042318 - 10/07/08 12:06 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
tripp23 said: what is one that kills another is a way of god's actual plan of saying it's their time to go. does anybody see where im coming from?
Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius!
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9042417 - 10/07/08 12:27 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
So from my experience and in talking to others IMO, early childhood trauma causes the stressors that eventually result in an out of balance brain chemistry leading to depression
Veritas responds: Examining potty training is not part of Cognitive therapy.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
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There's a difference between examining and insisting on examining. Countless hours of just psychoanalysis can turn out to be more detrimental than helpful, giving the past way too much importance and also giving the patient more than enough time and chances to replay all the traumatic events in his life, up until the point they might even reach and discover new ones, or consider them more to have a considerable and unbreakable power over them.
Cognitive therapy can be combined with some psychoanalysis sessions if necessary; but, most importantly, cognitive therapy focuses all it's attention on empowering the person in need by helping them learn new and constructive behaviors and realize what exactly from the old patterns were bad for themselves, by making use of critical thinking. All of this is done by the patient himself, and this matter can mean a lot for a person who was under the impression that he was not the ones who could decide how he felt.
It might be true that the past has an influence over our minds, but it is also true that the influence can be changed at any given time, if one's intentions are to produce a change within themselves. What we decide right now has a lot more influence and power than what we thought a year ago.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
One more time: I AGREE THAT THERE IS A CHEMICAL COMPONENT TO DEPRESSION. Was that clear enough?
Yet you keep repeating that addressing dysfunctional thinking EVEN WHEN THERE MAY BE NO DYSFUNCTIONAL THINKING, is helpful.
This makes no sense.
You asked me to present a counter link and I did. Now you want to to find a counter link that you agree with - an impossible task as I knew it would be.
OK, I'm done with this discussion. It seems clear that you are determined to ignore what I've actually presented & what I've actually claimed. Too bad.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9042717 - 10/07/08 01:25 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I know. Your links are gospel and my links suck.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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bradley
Stranger
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9042719 - 10/07/08 01:25 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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But aren't you curious about the claim that someone without dysfunctional thinking can be helped by CBT? How would you suppose that works?
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: bradley]
#9042734 - 10/07/08 01:28 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Shhh - we are not supposed to ask that.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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If both of you would actually read what I've posted, you would know the answer to that question. It's really no fun to debate with someone who doesn't respond to your actual claims and evidence.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9042791 - 10/07/08 01:42 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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You guys n' gals (Orgone and Veritas) seem to be arguing two different subjects.
Just sayin.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9042798 - 10/07/08 01:44 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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You cannot claim to be done with a thread and then continue.
You have overlooked every single counter-argument and pretend you are wounded.
CBT is as effective as anti-depressants.
Yet anti-depressantss are not efficacious.
What does this tell us?
I have shown multiple examples where mood is NOT linked to erroneous thinking, yet you keep ignoring that.
My personal anecdote is not evidence of anything, but yours personal history is acceptable as evidence?
This is fair and balanced?
You state the past is not a factor and yet when Ice states that the past IS a factor, you conveniently overlook it.
You ask for links and then ignore when presented.
Here, let's sum this thread up: your view is right and everyone else is wrong.
Yay, V wins!
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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If you will re-read my posts, I think you may realize that I have not said what you think I said. Until then, there is no point in discussing this with you. Mushman is right, we are discussing two different subjects. I'm not wounded, just abandoning a fruitless discussion.
If you can demonstrate that you've understood my ACTUAL argument, I would be glad to discuss it with you. I will not defend claims which I have not made.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9042889 - 10/07/08 02:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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OK, you did not state that CBT is not concerned with the past?
You did not post your personal history as evidence?
You did not totally dismiss my links?
What exactly am I missing?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9042913 - 10/07/08 02:08 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cognitive therapy can be combined with some psychoanalysis sessions if necessary; but, most importantly, cognitive therapy focuses all it's attention on empowering the person in need by helping them learn new and constructive behaviors and realize what exactly from the old patterns were bad for themselves,
As I have repeatedly pointed out, this is fine wherein that is the root of the problem, but is not contraindicated in many cases of depression.
Might as well use CBT to cure cancer.
You and V both conveniently overlook the annoying fact that CBT works best in people who are healthiest (only slightly dysfunctional). As I have pointed out this is counter to every other medical modality.
And you fail to acknowledge that depression can be induced in a healthy individual. This CLEARLY points to factors other than negative thoughts.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Quote:
And you fail to acknowledge that depression can be induced in a healthy individual.
Induced by what? Vengeful spirits?
Obviously, those feeling must be the result of something, and yes you fail to name that other something each time.
Quote:
You and V both conveniently overlook the annoying fact that CBT works best in people who are healthiest (only slightly dysfunctional).
I fail to see how exactly you determine this "slightly". By how effective the CBT was in the patient?
Couldn't it be that, some people aren't so good in organizing their thoughts and using rational thinking? We see this in people that don't manifest any worrisome sign of anxiety of depression, so I'm sure the same thing applies for people that have severe depression.
Maybe the reason why they still suffer is because their own inability of becoming aware of the harm they're doing to themselves, and not because the brain chemistry is so wild that they can't fight it.
Also, the more affected a person is, the more time they might need to rearrange their personality and create new healthy habits. Perhaps those people that have "clinical depression" stopped from reasoning their way out of depression too soon.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Please read over my posts & tell me what I have claimed. Then read over the single substantive link you've provided and check to see if I "ignored" it.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9043395 - 10/07/08 03:39 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Only about the third time, hon.
From YOUR link that YOU highlighted:
Quote:
The preponderance of the available scientific evidence shows that psychological interventions, particularly cognitive-behavioral therapies (CBTs), are generally as effective ...(as) medications.
I have posted multiple links showing that medications are not very effectual. Here is one more linky, not that you pay attention to anything at all that I post.
CBT = the efficacy of medications is your contention.
Doing a basic math substitution of the variables:
Medications do not work, therefore CBT has the same efficacy of something that does not work.
Sounds promising.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Only that, usually, after one stops the medication, the depression just pops out again. After interrupting the CBT you don't get this shit.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9043476 - 10/07/08 03:51 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Only that, usually, after one stops the medication, the depression just pops out again.
So when on the medication, the patients start magically thinking happy thoughts and once they stop the medication they start thinking miserable thoughts.
Or perhaps there is a REAL physiological problem, eh?
You asked about how depression may be induced. Sleep deprivation will induce depression and other ills in virtually everyone. Guess they just need better self-talk and not sleep.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Sleep deprivation actually has a temporary antidepressant effect while you're still sleep-deprived, FYI.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9043486 - 10/07/08 03:53 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Please read over my posts & tell me what I have claimed. Then read over the single substantive link you've provided and check to see if I "ignored" it.
Hard to debate a true believer.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9043487 - 10/07/08 03:53 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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It seems like a good therapy might involve a combination of antidepressants and CBT with the ratios tailored for each individual.
That's all I'm going to say on this subject 
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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You have established that anti-depressants may have a clinically-insignificant effect on mild depression. The article you've just linked to says that they have little effect on mild depression.
How does this establish that medications have no effect, and therefore CBT has no effect? The studies I've posted have clearly established that both medication AND CBT have a significant effect upon depression. The review article you offered did not include ANY of the major studies of CBT and depression, but rather a few unfavorable small-scale studies, which is unlikely to be an accident on the part of the authors.
You mentioned a book, but have not offered either the author or the title, so this "evidence" cannot be considered in this discussion. I did not offer my personal experiences as evidence, but rather as part of the basis for my understanding of this subject. I've taken what I learned from research & applied it to my own life, with equivalent results. This is relevant.
Here is my claim: Cognitive Therapy methods offer significant benefits for those who experience depression and anxiety. It is important to combine these methods with improvement of physical health because poor health has an impact on mood. It is important to combine these methods with exercise, because a sedentary lifestyle has an impact on mood. It is important to combine these methods with reduction of stress, because a stressful lifestyle has an impact on mood.
Since it is impossible to establish the exact reason a particular individual becomes depressed, though we can measure the changes in their brain chemistry, it makes sense to address the issue holistically. CBT is not about "thinking happy, positive thoughts," it is about learning to manipulate your neural network and neurochemistry for your own benefit. It's called learning, and it works.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9043527 - 10/07/08 04:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why, why, that's pure gibberish. If I'm depressed then nature made me that way and there's nothing to be done about it except maybe powerful meds from a trusted expert. Don't ask me how I know but I'm telling you it's gospel.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9043535 - 10/07/08 04:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Nope, the meds don't work either. You're fucked, buddy.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9043539 - 10/07/08 04:03 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hard to debate a true believer.
I know. You keep stating one must deal with their past and Veritas says that is not necessary.
One of you is very stubborn and in error.
You two fight it out amongst yourselves and get back to us when you have reached a consensus.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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What I stated was personal opinion without any links to back it up. If I was asked to back it up I would have to admit it was just my personal opinion. I can actually do that without problem.
And actually IMO one does not need to remember past experiences if they choose. I just think it's helpful to know you didn't create the problem yourself but you just might be maintaining it.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9043578 - 10/07/08 04:08 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I want to know how white sugar creates negative thoughts...
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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He didn't say that you had to resolve your past, he said that the past is when we create the neural patterns which operate in the present. Creating new patterns is the work of CBT. If you look at his original post, what he said was that people were unwilling to do what it takes to be happy. He did not specify "thinking happy thoughts," nor did he deny the effect of neurochemistry. Nor have I, nor will I.
You are arguing with ghosts.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9043612 - 10/07/08 04:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I can actually do that without problem.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I want to know how white sugar creates negative thoughts...
I don't know. I don't remember saying that.
But over consumption often has an effect on our energy levels and it takes energy to change. Depressed people often say they lack energy.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
So when on the medication, the patients start magically thinking happy thoughts and once they stop the medication they start thinking miserable thoughts.
No they relieve some of the symptoms, I didn't say that they magically induce "happy thoughts", you're the one who sad that and you're the one who sees my statements in a distorted way.
I said that, usually, after stopping the medication therapy, lots of patients report that they feel exactly how they felt before the medication, if not slightly worse.
Quote:
Or perhaps there is a REAL physiological problem, eh?
Of course there is a real PSYCHOLOGICAL problem, that's what I was saying all along.
Quote:
You asked about how depression may be induced. Sleep deprivation will induce depression and other ills in virtually everyone. Guess they just need better self-talk and not sleep.
This is how "clinical depression" occurs? As a result of sleep deprivation?
You keep on giving me these examples, which have nothing to do with what causes "clinical depression" (unless you can provide with an evidence) drawing a similarity between them and this kind of depression. Why is that?
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9043641 - 10/07/08 04:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Cocaine and meth are the answer, then?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9043642 - 10/07/08 04:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
You are arguing with ghosts.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9043646 - 10/07/08 04:19 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
It seems like a good therapy might involve a combination of antidepressants and CBT with the ratios tailored for each individual.
That's all I'm going to say on this subject
Couldn't argue against that.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9043650 - 10/07/08 04:19 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
This is how "clinical depression" occurs? As a result of sleep deprivation?
How many red pandas will you wager that I can find a link to poor sleep patterns and depression?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9043662 - 10/07/08 04:21 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I don't remember saying that.
Oh shit. Better (re)read V's post on neural plasticity, nuns and Alzhemier's.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
How many red pandas will you wager that I can find a link to poor sleep patterns and depression?
Let me guess, wikipedia?
Or, some dude's blog?
Ok, fine. Provide with evidence that sleep deprivation results in clinical depression.
Of course, this would mean that you agree that it can be treated with a change of lifestyle.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Cocaine and meth are the answer, then?
They can work for awhile. So can psychedelics. But they are bandaids usually.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9043720 - 10/07/08 04:32 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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In summation, it takes more energy to create a happy thought than a negative thought. Energy = calories. Therefore obese people are...?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Someone needs a comprehension class.
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9043742 - 10/07/08 04:35 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I could recommend one if you like. I saw one on Wiki...
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
In summation, it takes more energy to create a happy thought than a negative thought. Energy = calories. Therefore obese people are...?
It takes more emotional "energy" (i.e. willpower and focus, not calories) to change than it does to remain the same.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 13,719
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 days, 3 hours
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Still waiting for you to show the sleep deprivation - clinical depression link. 
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
In summation, it takes more energy to create a happy thought than a negative thought. Energy = calories. Therefore obese people are...?
Not quite. It takes more energy to move from one state to another. So if you want to make a move physically or mentally it helps to feel good physically and have energy. IMO Obese people are often depressed.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 52,515
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9043798 - 10/07/08 04:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9043800 - 10/07/08 04:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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One of the symptoms of depression is a change in sleep patterns...either sleeping too much or not sleeping enough. It does not seem that sleep deprivation causes depression.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9043825 - 10/07/08 04:48 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Still waiting for you to show the sleep deprivation - clinical depression link.
He went way past the Icelander rule long ago. Don't expect it now.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9043832 - 10/07/08 04:50 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Will the butter in MT's popcorn make her depressed?
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This is your drain on brugs.
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9043858 - 10/07/08 04:56 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
He went way past the Icelander rule long ago
I am just a rebel. 
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Will the butter in MT's popcorn make her depressed?
I doubt it.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9043902 - 10/07/08 05:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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What about your stance on fatty acids? (I prefer skinny LSD.)
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Balance
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9043946 - 10/07/08 05:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I do balance. I eat a pound of butter AND a pint of virgin olive oil every day.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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And see, you're not depressive. You just play one on TV.
--------------------
“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,388
Loc: Luxor
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Icelander]
#9043965 - 10/07/08 05:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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And you are not really as mean as a rattlesnake. You just want people to believe that.
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This is your drain on brugs.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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True, I'm not really mean, I'm disappointed.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,299
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
That the methods were bad or the conclusions unsound? The evidence made up?
The evidence is highly biased. Given the extremely large volume of clinical and experimental data that exists, it is easy to find support for a particular opinion. I could easily pop a hundred articles out of a search engine that disprove this articles position. Most honest psychiatrists and psychologists have given up on this approach. If a person wants to make the broad claim that CBT is not effective, they're going to need to provide a meta-analysis with a humongous sample to prove this.
Quote:
Are you saying that "industry" pays for every article in that journal? I don't know what your point is as to this specific article. Nobody cares about the journal.
Most of the psychiatrists working for the APA also work for pharmaceutical companies. If CBT is a better treatment for depression than medications, they lose funding.
The publishers did not work for the APA, and they were not funded by industry in this case. If they are funded by industry then provide evidence of such.
This study was done with a government grant.
Did this article state a "broad claim that CBT" was ineffective? I don't think they did. I also don't think you've provided any points disputing this article beyond a general rebellion against perceived improprieties you can't demonstrate.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 14,299
Loc: Americas
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9044525 - 10/07/08 06:53 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Still waiting for you to show the sleep deprivation - clinical depression link.
Sleep deprivation in depression: what do we know, where do we go? .
Biological Psychiatry , Volume 46 , Issue 4 , Pages 445 - 453
A . Wirz-Justice
Abstract: http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0006322399001250
Been my understanding that sleep deprivation probides temporary alleviation of depressive symptoms.
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psikooz
Stranger
Registered: 07/19/03
Posts: 1,023
Loc: Los Angeles
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Whats wrong with suicide?
You wake up in pellican bay, and i woop your ass.
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b0red5tiff
NWO Disinformation Agent
Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 17,629
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: psikooz]
#9044933 - 10/07/08 08:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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the only way to post in P&S is to just state your opinion and NEVER LOOK BACK. just let it go... it's easy... never reply, never check back. like suicide - it takes determination and will power.
break on through to the other side 
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Trading random Cubensis prints for stuff, PM me!
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: johnm214]
#9045365 - 10/07/08 09:14 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
That the methods were bad or the conclusions unsound? The evidence made up?
The evidence is highly biased. Given the extremely large volume of clinical and experimental data that exists, it is easy to find support for a particular opinion. I could easily pop a hundred articles out of a search engine that disprove this articles position. Most honest psychiatrists and psychologists have given up on this approach. If a person wants to make the broad claim that CBT is not effective, they're going to need to provide a meta-analysis with a humongous sample to prove this.
Quote:
Are you saying that "industry" pays for every article in that journal? I don't know what your point is as to this specific article. Nobody cares about the journal.
Most of the psychiatrists working for the APA also work for pharmaceutical companies. If CBT is a better treatment for depression than medications, they lose funding.
The publishers did not work for the APA, and they were not funded by industry in this case. If they are funded by industry then provide evidence of such.
This study was done with a government grant.
Did this article state a "broad claim that CBT" was ineffective? I don't think they did. I also don't think you've provided any points disputing this article beyond a general rebellion against perceived improprieties you can't demonstrate.
The publishers are members of the APA, plus they work for the Black Dog Institute, which is funded by Pfizer and Eli Lilly.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,613
Loc: underbelly
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: b0red5tiff]
#9047198 - 10/08/08 10:23 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
b0red5tiff said:
the only way to post in P&S is to just state your opinion and NEVER LOOK BACK. just let it go... it's easy... never reply, never check back. like suicide - it takes determination and will power.
break on through to the other side
Especially helpful if you have no evidence to back your post.
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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker
"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."
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PeopleAreDifferent
Stranger
Registered: 10/27/11
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: daytripper23] 1
#15286540 - 10/27/11 01:44 PM (7 months, 44 minutes ago) |
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I think the answer to this question is EXTREMELY simple, and it's the same one I gave to a previous very similar question. It ALL boils down to this:
It's wrong because everyone (or most people) think and believe that everybody else in the world thinks (or should think and feel) identically to the way they themselves think everything is within their own minds, based on THEIR OWN life experiences.
In other words, anyone who is having a good time, very successful with life, or happened to get through a tough situation..etc. AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMES and believes that every other person in the world has no reason to feel down or helpless - based purely on the fact that they themselves don't see or understand a problem someone else is going through, or because they feel that it's "not that big of a deal" and hold the mentality; "if I could get through it, then everybody in the world should also be able to handle it as well".
I understand that it's easy to accuse everyone else of being selfish for doing anything that's not in alignment to what you believe because you feel like it's wrong or unnecessary, but the truth is we are ALL selfish, including those who accuse everyone else but themselves. This is why everything from superficial rules, laws, commandments, man made religions, rules of society, ...etc. (that we all fall for and believe) which creates all this unnecessary trouble even exist in the first place.
Anything a person does that someone else doesn't understand or like for whatever reasoning can be considered "wrong", or a taboo to them. That's just the way it is.
It's a superficial chosen belief / rule, or an attempt to eliminate anything that may emotionally or physically hurt ourselves from happening. We all do it - we'd ALL prefer everyone else to live in pain, emptiness, and suffering and not hurt themselves - just so WE wouldn't have to suffer or have an interruption to our stream of happiness or good fortune..etc. (unless, of course, the person who wanted to die was so "out of it" and useless to us that it would be more convenient for us if that someone in particular died, and then we rationalize in our minds that "I thuought it was better for them that they passed on"..)
..Then just wait until the person who's on their high horse, who believe's "it's all good, all the time" runs into an unbearably tough situation that gives them that intense gut feeling of hurt, pain, worthlessness, & emptiness, and ALL THE SUDDEN suicide will become "ok" and will no longer be a taboo to that person anymore.
Bottom line:
We don't want anyone to die, unless it's convenient for us. "F*ck how they feel" is the mentality that's being sugarcoated and disguised here, PLAIN & SIMPLE.
I know the truth hurts, but what the heck, I'm selfish, too, and I wanted to point it out, so that's exactly what I did - because pointing it out satisfied ME. This is what I choose to believe. Therefore, EVERYBODY must agree and act accordingly!
Have a great day.
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