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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6675598 - 03/16/07 01:45 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Capitalism predates Mr. Smith by several millennia




Impossible.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:and humanity has never been ignorant of human nature




I'm talking about knowledge of general human psychology. A scientific understanding of which has not been available until very recently.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Really? Do you have any knowledge whatsoever of the tenets of behavior modification? B. F. Skinner? Pavlov? Your ignorance astounds me.




Both their theories of human nature are outdated.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Your Pinker (first link) citation is irrelevant, I would love to see what point you are trying to make with that.




The relevance is that human beings don't always make the rational decision for biological reasons, so expecting that they will is irrational.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Your second citation describes the freedom to choose which capitalism has brought (ohnoes whaddaya mean I have to make a choice?)




Which is measurably harmful when there is too much choice in one area, and too little choice in others. Giving people a limited amount of money and 50 brands of cereal to choose from is just an unnecessary stress in daily life, not a good use of resources.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:And the third is just ludicrous. People who have no money are less healthy than people who do. Well fucking duh? No wealthy no healthy? Bullshit. Is it stressful to be a bum? Probably.




You're speaking more for the inhumanity of the system then its utility.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Here's all you need to know about human nature. Without a belief that reward is somehow tied to performance no one will ever perform.




Tell that to Mother Theresa. Or Martin Luther King. I hope you aren't going to say that King was in it for the dollar.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:At all. Unless you put a gun to their head. Then they'll do the minimum required to not get shot. So, which do you prefer? The carrot? Or the stick? Methinks you seem to prefer the stick.




That's sick. Basically all you're saying is the only way you see human relations is with the underlying tendency of bribery or threat.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

Edited by FrenchSocialist (03/16/07 01:53 AM)

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
DarwinianLeftist

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 883
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6675614 - 03/16/07 01:55 AM (17 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And their re disbursement should be solely for the common good and not for the enrichment of a bunch of do nothing dilettantes.




So why are you arguing with me?


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Registered: 08/02/06
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Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #6675666 - 03/16/07 02:12 AM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

GnosticWarrior said:
Sorry, so long. Anyway a smart capitalist knows that profits matter over race, religion, or whatever. If your my employee, I don't care if your black as long as you can produce. If your a consumer, I don't care if a muslim made it, as long as its a quality product at a cheap price.




I think you are underestimating the tremendous role luck plays in the system. A lot of people born in the poorest neighbors come from families of two or even three generations of unemployment. The numbers listed by Ben Stein indicate that millions of Americans are living in poverty.

What you just talked about in your post is a story. A story of how capitalism works in theory. For that story to be true you need fair competition, rational consumers, and equal opportunity. Little if any of which exists in our actual system.

The distinction between public and private institutions is ultimately just one of labels. What is private industry? It merely indicates a type of autocracy, or oligarchy, one where the threat of force is merely less apparent. Ultimately, its just putting one person or a small group in charge of a vast organization. The difference between government and private industry is thus, more often then not, a superficial distinction- the point of that being the government has more safeties. The government operates under a system of accountability that has evolved over centuries, private institutions have no such mechanisms.

Remember that the private enterprises promoted by Adam Smith were never supposed to operate at the vast scales they do today.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

Edited by FrenchSocialist (03/16/07 02:18 AM)

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OfflineTheGreatDictator
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6675800 - 03/16/07 04:08 AM (17 years, 17 days ago)

I like to watch zappaisgod squirm. :laugh:


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Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence. -Richard Dawkins -

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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6675813 - 03/16/07 04:21 AM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
I think you are underestimating the tremendous role luck plays in the system. A lot of people born in the poorest neighbors come from families of two or even three generations of unemployment. The numbers listed by Ben Stein indicate that millions of Americans are living in poverty.





Yes, you're right about the luck factor. Warren Buffett addresses this issue. He feels he won the lottery of life to born an american. No one had a choice in the matter of their birth. He and Bill Gates are on the similar line of thinking. But they believe that they are more effective/efficient allocators of resources than any government could be. Though they do appreciate the fact that America provides the opportunity for them to be where they are.

Bill Gates started his private foundation to redistribute wealth to those less fortunate that you stated. Warren Buffett trusts Gates decision making skills to achieve the most good per a dollar spent. They had WB's granddaughter on Oprah and she sounded a little dissapointed that the family members weren't going to get more money to be the one's to do the giving back. Sounds like WB to me. BG with his foundation and WB with his donation in essence minimizes the amount of money that would end up in the govt's hand.

Capitalists want the decisions of how resources should be allocated put in the "best" hands. I like this concept. Though I do think that every person in the world should have some sort of basic human rights and living conditions. I think this is what BG is trying to accomplish with his foundation. It all comes down to what is the best system to select a leader. But even America with George Bush, can people like BG,WB, and Oprah exist and operate their goals in trying to create equality in the world.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6675858 - 03/16/07 05:33 AM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
How so? To my knowledge, when the system of capitalism was first proposed by Adam Smith, humanity was largely ignorant of human nature.



The system of capitalism wasn't "proposed" by anyone. Smith was simply trying to describe the system that had naturally evolved.

Capitalism does infact predate Smith by milennia. The notion of the market economy can be found in both Ancient Rome and Ancient China (Check out Lao Tzu if you don't believe me).

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
As I have stated before:

Data from evolutionary psychology would suggest otherwise.1 Also, new scientific research suggests that too much choice actually harms an individuals well-being.2 And the inequality that arises from it also tends to create long-term stress related health problems.[url=http://hiderefer.com/?http://obssr.od.nih.gov/Content/Publications/Articles/SOCIALIN.htm]3[/url]




You put too much faith in a developing field with shaky evidence at best. Prominent biologists have repeatedly pointed out the obvious flaws with evolutionary psychology, this article from Coyne is as good a place to begin as any. It's also telling that the biggest section of the Wikipedia "evolutionary psychology" article is the controversies section.

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InvisibleArp
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: TheGreatDictator]
    #6675943 - 03/16/07 06:57 AM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Like the George American of Shroomery :cheers:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: TheGreatDictator]
    #6676300 - 03/16/07 10:14 AM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

TheGreatDictator said:
I like to watch zappaisgod squirm. :laugh:




zappaisgod was offline.  He was not in the least squirming.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6676358 - 03/16/07 10:48 AM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Capitalism predates Mr. Smith by several millennia




Impossible.

I believe Economist took care of this quite effectively.


Quote:

zappaisgod said:and humanity has never been ignorant of human nature




I'm talking about knowledge of general human psychology. A scientific understanding of which has not been available until very recently.

But that is not what you said. And the scientific understanding you cite of late is not all that great. Or generally accepted as fact

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Really? Do you have any knowledge whatsoever of the tenets of behavior modification? B. F. Skinner? Pavlov? Your ignorance astounds me.




Both their theories of human nature are outdated.

No, they are not. This is an out and out lie.




Quote:

zappaisgod said:Your Pinker (first link) citation is irrelevant, I would love to see what point you are trying to make with that.




The relevance is that human beings don't always make the rational decision for biological reasons, so expecting that they will is irrational.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. What is important is that they are their decisions. And frankly, the notion that you might have all of the information they do in making their decisions is ludicrous.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Your second citation describes the freedom to choose which capitalism has brought (ohnoes whaddaya mean I have to make a choice?)




Which is measurably harmful when there is too much choice in one area, and too little choice in others. Giving people a limited amount of money and 50 brands of cereal to choose from is just an unnecessary stress in daily life, not a good use of resources.

"Not a good use of resources" Wow, there's inefficiency in the world. Some people are stupid. Who knew. Harmful? That would depend very much on what you view as harm. "Giving people a limited amount of money" Just how much cereal do you think they need? Answer: Exactly the same amount if they had no choice at all. So they have to pick one. What a tragedy.. This reminds me of a Devo song. In ancient Rome, there was a poem, about a dog, who had two bones, he ran in circles, until he dropped dead. So, for the good of the people you would remove choice. Why am I not the least bit surprised and could you have made my point the least bit better. You and your vicious ilk would curtail the people's choice in the name of their own good.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:And the third is just ludicrous. People who have no money are less healthy than people who do. Well fucking duh? No wealthy no healthy? Bullshit. Is it stressful to be a bum? Probably.




You're speaking more for the inhumanity of the system then its utility.

Um no. Without an incentive to develop a health system there won't be one. See Skinner. Altruism is mostly a myth.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Here's all you need to know about human nature. Without a belief that reward is somehow tied to performance no one will ever perform.




Tell that to Mother Theresa. Or Martin Luther King. I hope you aren't going to say that King was in it for the dollar.

Not all rewards are monetary. King may have been in it just for the nookie, although probably not. In any event, there were other rewards beside money. Adulation for one. A very powerful motivator, peer approval. Likewise for the wrinkled loon.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:At all. Unless you put a gun to their head. Then they'll do the minimum required to not get shot. So, which do you prefer? The carrot? Or the stick? Methinks you seem to prefer the stick.




That's sick. Basically all you're saying is the only way you see human relations is with the underlying tendency of bribery or threat.




Well, the cropped quote rears its ugly head. I see it more as reward versus threat. You prefer threats, I prefer rewards.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6676427 - 03/16/07 11:22 AM (17 years, 17 days ago)

For a government cynic, you sure put a lot of faith in it to run a command economy.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: Redstorm]
    #6676516 - 03/16/07 11:53 AM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
For a government cynic, you sure put a lot of faith in it to run a command economy.




Just one of a whole slew of fallacious and self contradictory positions espoused by socialist, i.e. fascist, goons.


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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Registered: 08/02/06
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #6677363 - 03/16/07 04:01 PM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

GnosticWarrior said:

Capitalists want the decisions of how resources should be allocated put in the "best" hands. I like this concept.




So far as I've seen you've based this claim on a total of two people.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Registered: 08/02/06
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: Economist]
    #6677396 - 03/16/07 04:12 PM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
The system of capitalism wasn't "proposed" by anyone.




I looked it up and I don't see how my description is inaccurate: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proposed


Quote:

Economist said:Capitalism does infact predate Smith by milennia. The notion of the market economy can be found in both Ancient Rome and Ancient China (Check out Lao Tzu if you don't believe me).




"Capitalism generally refers to an economic system in which the means of production are mostly privately[1] owned and operated for profit, and in which distribution, production and pricing of goods and services are determined in a largely free market. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Those two conditions were not present until approximately the 16th century.

Quote:

Prominent biologists have repeatedly pointed out the obvious flaws with evolutionary psychology, this article from Coyne is as good a place to begin as any.





The arguments go back and forth like they do for every emerging scientific theory.

A similar line of objections was handled in an article of Skeptic magazine entitled Evolutionary Psychology is Here to Stay.

Quote:

In his case against Evolutionary Psychology, Buller misses — or skillfully avoids — the big picture. The interesting, though by no means novel, points he makes fit Richard Dawkins’ description of earlier such criticisms as “a catalogue of methodological shortcomings of particular studies.”24

Buller fashions his arguments like a defense attorney in a criminal case. He attempts to sow doubt regarding this or that piece of evidence, or to offer alternative interpretations as to what might have happened. The scientific method, however, is like a civil case, where the standard is not “beyond a reasonable doubt” but rather “the preponderance of evidence.” Moreover, a civil case does not require an either-or verdict of “guilty” or “not guilty;” rather, liability can be apportioned. Likewise, in the behavioral sciences especially, a good theory or hypothesis need not explain everything, but only provide the simplest and most coherent explanation.

Evolutionary psychology satisfies philosopher Imre Lakatos’ criterion that true science is “progressive.” It has proven able “to ‘digest’ (successfully account for) apparent anomalies and generate novel predictions and explanations” and therefore has “the hallmarks of a currently progressive research program capable of providing us with new knowledge of how the mind works.”25 A glance at the recently published Handbook of Evolutionary Psychology26 (edited by David Buss) shows just how vigorous and productive the field is.

Important challenges remain, however. The most important are determining the role of domain-specific versus domain-general processes27 and integrating evolutionary psychology, behavior genetics, neurosciences, and psychometrics.28

The critics notwithstanding, Evolutionary Psychology is here to stay.





Edited by FrenchSocialist (03/17/07 04:07 AM)

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: Redstorm]
    #6677403 - 03/16/07 04:14 PM (17 years, 17 days ago)

It's not faith, its a matter of basic reasoning. The more organized a system is, the more efficiently it functions. That is the basis on which we run our military, and though I may not like the military structure for ethical reasons, I cannot ignore the efficiency of such a structure.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6677421 - 03/16/07 04:22 PM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
Quote:

GnosticWarrior said:

Capitalists want the decisions of how resources should be allocated put in the "best" hands. I like this concept.




So far as I've seen you've based this claim on a total of two people.




FrenchSocialist, just wanted you to know that I have no beef with you. Someone has to represent the opposing side. I'm not going to say I'm right or you're right. Capitalism vs. Socialism, doesn't really matter. If majority of its particpant have love for their fellow man it will all work out.

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6677431 - 03/16/07 04:25 PM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Really? Do you have any knowledge whatsoever of the tenets of behavior modification? B. F. Skinner? Pavlov? Your ignorance astounds me.




Both their theories of human nature are outdated.

No, they are not. This is an out and out lie.




The human mind isn't a blank slate like the behaviorists proposed. If you are going to maintain it is I have plenty of evidence to refute you.



Quote:

zappaisgod said:Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. What is important is that they are their decisions.




That's a superstitious point of view based on the notion of free will. In any event, you are contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you are arguing for a completely deterministic world view via appealing to BF Skinner and behavioral psychology, and on the other, you are saying that people make free choices. Which is it?


Quote:

zappaisgod said:That would depend very much on what you view as harm.




Measurable harm according to scientific studies.


Quote:

zappaisgod said:Without an incentive to develop a health system there won't be one.




The US health care system lags behind Europes.



Quote:

zappaisgod said:Not all rewards are monetary.




You're just proving my point. You don't always need capitalist incentives to motivate people.


Quote:

zappaisgod said:Well, the cropped quote rears its ugly head. I see it more as reward versus threat. You prefer threats, I prefer rewards.




On what basis do you say this?


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6677979 - 03/16/07 07:11 PM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Really? Do you have any knowledge whatsoever of the tenets of behavior modification? B. F. Skinner? Pavlov? Your ignorance astounds me.




Both their theories of human nature are outdated.

No, they are not. This is an out and out lie.




The human mind isn't a blank slate like the behaviorists proposed. If you are going to maintain it is I have plenty of evidence to refute you.




Your understanding of behavior modification is flawed. It works and there is no reason to believe that a tabula rasa is necessary to explain it. This is a notion that I have heard only from you.
Quote:





Quote:

zappaisgod said:Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. What is important is that they are their decisions.




That's a superstitious point of view based on the notion of free will. In any event, you are contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you are arguing for a completely deterministic world view via appealing to BF Skinner and behavioral psychology, and on the other, you are saying that people make free choices. Which is it?




Once again, you have no understanding of behavior mod, which is not equal to determinism. They make free choices based on what they perceive to be in their interests, however they get to that perception is irrelevant. There is nothing superstitious about the perfectly acceptable scientific observation that behavior is affected by exterior events. Nor does it in any way preclude free will. Which is moot, in my opinion, to a discussion of law or politics. It is for that great wank philosophy. The problem in applying this to law is that someone must be anointed the decider. I prefer to leave that up to the individual. Anointed deciders are always a disaster, whether an individual Caesar or a Politburo. It is best that such entities be kept in check as much as feasible. You, on the other hand would give them carte blanche. Let me ask you something. What if it was ME who was Caesar?
Quote:




Quote:

zappaisgod said:That would depend very much on what you view as harm.




Measurable harm according to scientific studies.


Quote:

zappaisgod said:Without an incentive to develop a health system there won't be one.




The US health care system lags behind Europes.




Bullshit.

Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:Not all rewards are monetary.




You're just proving my point. You don't always need capitalist incentives to motivate people.




That is certainly true. I was not paid to have sex with that woman. What's YOUR point?
Quote:




Quote:

zappaisgod said:Well, the cropped quote rears its ugly head. I see it more as reward versus threat. You prefer threats, I prefer rewards.




On what basis do you say this?




Everything a government does it does at the point of a gun. You want the government to determine what is in a person's interest and make him act accordingly. I prefer to give him choices and let him choose the method to obtain his desires, whatever they are, as long as they don't harm anyone else. Would you outlaw McDonalds? Candy? Potato chips? Apparently all drugs and alcohol. Coffee too? And cigarettes?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6678104 - 03/16/07 07:59 PM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
The more organized a system is, the more efficiently it functions.




I call bullshit on that. The more organized a system is, most likely it is going to be large. When a large bureaucracy runs things, waste and corruption is inherent. That sounds like the opposite of efficiency to me.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: Economist]
    #6678293 - 03/16/07 08:55 PM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Capitalism does infact predate Smith by milennia. The notion of the market economy can be found in both Ancient Rome and Ancient China (Check out Lao Tzu if you don't believe me).



I think you're using a rather simplistic definition of capitalism. Capitalism in Europe emerged with the end of feudalism and mercantilism, both of which involved market economies. Capitalism is traditionally defined as the private control of the means of production. Now, it's true that this has always existed to some degree, as artisans have always owned the products they sell. But capitalism as we know it wasn't able to emerge until the feudal lords and aristocracy had lost control of their lands and the peasants that worked it.


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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Re: Ben Stein criticizes US inequality [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6679008 - 03/17/07 01:05 AM (17 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Your understanding of behavior modification is flawed. It works and there is no reason to believe that a tabula rasa is necessary to explain it. This is a notion that I have heard only from you.




I said both their theories of human nature are outdated.

Also, if the mind is not tabula rasa, then there are limitations to behavior modification. Both in respect to what is practical and in respect to what is desirable.



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Once again, you have no understanding of behavior mod, which is not equal to determinism. They make free choices based on what they perceive to be in their interests, however they get to that perception is irrelevant.




Either you think environment determines behavior, or you think individuals make free choices. You really haven't presented a coherent third option.

All you have done is state that you believe in both behavioral modification, and free choice, and described each individually. You haven't shown how these two mechanisms are supposed to co-exist.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Without an incentive to develop a health system there won't be one.




The US health care system lags behind Europes.




Bullshit.





The US spends almost twice as much per capita as Europe on health care, and its health care system fails to adequately cover over one quarter of the population. This is compared to western european countries where the highest recorded rate of similar failure is roughly 11% (as opposed to the United State's 26%). The US also, despite having greater wealth, has a lower rate of life expectancy, and a higher rate of obesity.

That is why the US health care system is ranked at number 37, while western European nations occupy the lion's share of the top 20 positions according to the World Health Organization's
world health report.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:That is certainly true. I was not paid to have sex with that woman. What's YOUR point?




Exactly that. The fact that people will work for motives besides that of monetary profit shows that some socialist programs can work. All some people need is opportunity.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Everything a government does it does at the point of a gun.




That's an exaggeration. Fire fighters and school teachers are hardly conducting business at the point of a gun.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:You want the government to determine what is in a person's interest and make him act accordingly.




No, I think a person's interests are already determined by factors that they cannot control. I also think that the government should set some general policies on the basis of a scientific understanding of human nature-especially in areas where market forces cannot meet social demand.

Quote:

zappaisgod said: I prefer to give him choices and let him choose the method to obtain his desires, whatever they are, as long as they don't harm anyone else.




That requires one believe in free will. I will not argue against your right to such a belief, but since it is not proven, it would be irresponsible for a society to make laws based on such a belief. Society should not make laws on the basis of faith.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:Would you outlaw McDonalds? Candy? Potato chips? Apparently all drugs and alcohol. Coffee too? And cigarettes?




Matters like that should be handled by experts on a case by case basis.

Edited by FrenchSocialist (03/17/07 03:14 PM)

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