What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. - Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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fivepointer
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What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come.
#6583217 - 02/18/07 08:24 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

God's Word declares all shall be brought before God in judgment. All who fall short of the righteous demands of the law shall be punished in the Lake of Fire.

You are given this warning and are also told that God is merciful. His mercy is shown in the fact that Jesus came and saved His people from their sin. You have heard the warnings yet you do not repent from wickedness. You cannot see yourself as a sinner, since your carnal mind can not comprehend itself to be wicked, and therefore can not see the need for salvation. You are secure in your own abilities in the spiritual realm, not realizing that your best spiritual works are a stench outside of Christ's perfect righteousness. You scoff when the Word declares you are spiritually dead and need to be born again. Part of your blindness is the fact you can't see your blindness. Christ came to seek are save the lost. Are you lost? If not you will not be sought or saved. Are you thirsting for righteousness? Only the thirsty are given the living waters. Are you heavy laden with sin? Only the laden are relieved. Have you come with nothing? Come with nothing and eat without price. Grace is sweet only for those in need of it. Oh how I hope that the Spirit might break you and show you sin and righteousness and judgment. Only then can the gospel shine into your heart.

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daytripper23
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6583222 - 02/18/07 08:27 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

dont you think that obedience by fear isnt very wholesome?

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Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6583250 - 02/18/07 08:36 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

You need not fear Hell. From your words I see that you already inhabit it.

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Maybe there is no Heaven. Maybe this is all pure gibberish — a product of the demented imagination of a lazy drunken hillbilly with a heart full of hate who has found a way to live out where the real winds blow — to sleep late, have fun, get wild, drink whiskey, and drive fast on empty streets with nothing in mind except falling in love and not getting arrested...
--HST

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6583255 - 02/18/07 08:38 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

What will be your excuse when your ignorance consumes you and destroys you from the inside?

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daytripper23
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
#6583278 - 02/18/07 08:44 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

idk dude ignorance is bliss sometimes.

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Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Silversoul
Holon

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: daytripper23]
#6583296 - 02/18/07 08:48 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
idk dude ignorance is bliss sometimes.

In the short term, yes. In the long run, it will destroy you.

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Silversoul
Holon

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6583347 - 02/18/07 09:07 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

BTW fivepointer, haven't you espoused the doctrine of predestination before? Why should I need an excuse when my ultimate fate is already predistined?

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FrenchSocialist
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6583762 - 02/19/07 12:14 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Not enough evidence.

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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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elbisivni

Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6583940 - 02/19/07 01:22 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Excuse for what?

Quote:

fivepointer said:
God's Word declares all shall be brought before God in judgment. All who fall short of the righteous demands of the law shall be punished in the Lake of Fire.

He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sakes.

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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Basilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6583980 - 02/19/07 01:43 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Worship of God out of fear of hell is neither sincere nor genuine love for God

I disagree largely with your theological stance

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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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SneezingPenis
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: daytripper23]
#6584072 - 02/19/07 02:42 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6584076 - 02/19/07 02:47 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Dude I really feel sorry for you, it must suck to live in fear...

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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug:

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6584380 - 02/19/07 05:21 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Many on this board have made statements that I worship God out of fear of hell. This is a misconception. The gospel is good news, which declares mercy and forgiveness. The law with its demands and punishments can never again accuse a believer. Every sin, past, present, and future has been put away in Christ's blood forever. We are unconditionally loved and reconciled, we serve/worship out of thanksgiving, not out of fear. Godly fear is a reverential fear, an awe inspired fear, not a fear of punishment.

The Lake of Fire gets hotter and hotter with every passing sin. How long shall you ignore the warnings that God has given? The law is your accuser, it has no mercy. Turn and believe the gospel. But you say, “I can’t turn”. Well then ask that you may be given the ability to turn. You say, “I can’t believe”, ask that you might be given belief. Repent and believe the gospel and you shall be saved!

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Sinbad
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6584391 - 02/19/07 05:30 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

If God gave us his unconditional love, he would give each of us a place in heaven by his side, no matter what, not hand out eternal punishment. If he were omnipotent, yet merciful, there would be no suffering, but there clearly is. Therefore i conclude that your God either does'nt exist, is'nt how you think he is or is just not worthy of worship by anyone, for he lacks in the virtuous qualities of compassion. Either way, he is insignificant to my path.

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Edited by Sinbad (02/19/07 05:52 AM)

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flower_child
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Sinbad]
#6584443 - 02/19/07 06:18 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com

Click the lake of fire.

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Anything written above this is just a sorry attempt to seem cool to strangers. It is false information.

:strokebeard:

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leery11
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: flower_child]
#6584483 - 02/19/07 06:44 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I have sought out Christ and I have seen that he is a Jedi, that he is just some guy living in California, and he told me he wasn't what I thought he was... and that really, nothing is happening or has happened to me that would give me any "grace" or anything of that sort.

To most Christians it seems praying is enough, well I have prayed, and even considered it rational (and still may) but I do not have Christ-consciousness now, nor do I have grace, I just have the merits of my meditations and my yoga and my diet which make me happy, but I don't have some sort of kindling of holy spirit.

Where is it fivepointer? How can you be a believer if you don't belive? If he is LORD it should be made evident enough for every single person that turns open perhaps even one page of the Bible, or says simply even one prayer, thinking it a sound idea to believe in a savior.

And it is a sound idea, but only if it is true.

I am awaiting confirmation of the reality of Jesus Christ, but without that I have to rely on his messengers and I just don't seem to believe them honestly.
[yes like you said, i have prayed to even be turned toward Christianity if it is true, and allowed to believe]

I do not believe that even Hitler deserves an eternity in hell, let alone a Buddhist monk who has attained nirvana, a little Muslim child who was poisoned against the "true" way, and all other sorts of things.

If the writers of the Bible think God just, I find it hard to fathom. If God is just then all ration and reason denote universal salvation and universal forgiveness for sins, with or without atonement.

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Om bhur bhuvaha swaha tat savitur varenyam bhargo devasya dhimahi, dhiyo yonah prachodyat.
We meditate upon that supreme light , the source of all creation, may it illumine our intellects and bring us eternal life.

Edited by leery11 (02/19/07 06:48 AM)

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mr_kite
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: leery11]
#6584684 - 02/19/07 08:49 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

My excuse will be that I didnt believe in any of it. I know that ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law, but Im sure if the shit hits the fan and it turns out God does exist, that he/she/it will show his/her/its glorious compassion and install me on a cloud alongside the rest of the good guys.

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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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BlueCoyote
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6584700 - 02/19/07 08:54 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

"your best spiritual works are a stench outside..." of Love and Compassion !

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Though lovers be lost love shall not

And death shall have no dominion............................................................."Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6584784 - 02/19/07 09:32 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Many on this board have made statements that I worship God out of fear of hell. This is a misconception. The gospel is good news, which declares mercy and forgiveness. The law with its demands and punishments can never again accuse a believer. Every sin, past, present, and future has been put away in Christ's blood forever. We are unconditionally loved and reconciled, we serve/worship out of thanksgiving, not out of fear. Godly fear is a reverential fear, an awe inspired fear, not a fear of punishment.

The Lake of Fire gets hotter and hotter with every passing sin. How long shall you ignore the warnings that God has given? The law is your accuser, it has no mercy. Turn and believe the gospel. But you say, “I can’t turn”. Well then ask that you may be given the ability to turn. You say, “I can’t believe”, ask that you might be given belief. Repent and believe the gospel and you shall be saved!

Dude, I don't believe in any gospel. And becoming one with God is total libertion, no fear there, not even "reverential fear" whatever that means to you...
"Love is the law, love under will"

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Edited by MushroomTrip (02/19/07 10:47 AM)

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MushmanTheManic
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6584839 - 02/19/07 10:00 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I would blame people like you.

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PsyPost - Psychedelic Research

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: leery11]
#6584843 - 02/19/07 10:01 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
I have sought out Christ and I have seen that he is a Jedi, that he is just some guy living in California, and he told me he wasn't what I thought he was... and that really, nothing is happening or has happened to me that would give me any "grace" or anything of that sort.

To most Christians it seems praying is enough, well I have prayed, and even considered it rational (and still may) but I do not have Christ-consciousness now, nor do I have grace, I just have the merits of my meditations and my yoga and my diet which make me happy, but I don't have some sort of kindling of holy spirit.

Where is it fivepointer? How can you be a believer if you don't belive? If he is LORD it should be made evident enough for every single person that turns open perhaps even one page of the Bible, or says simply even one prayer, thinking it a sound idea to believe in a savior.

And it is a sound idea, but only if it is true.

I am awaiting confirmation of the reality of Jesus Christ, but without that I have to rely on his messengers and I just don't seem to believe them honestly.
[yes like you said, i have prayed to even be turned toward Christianity if it is true, and allowed to believe]

I do not believe that even Hitler deserves an eternity in hell, let alone a Buddhist monk who has attained nirvana, a little Muslim child who was poisoned against the "true" way, and all other sorts of things.

If the writers of the Bible think God just, I find it hard to fathom. If God is just then all ration and reason denote universal salvation and universal forgiveness for sins, with or without atonement.

You are awaiting confirmation. How does one know they are in Christ? First and foremost they believe the gospel. Not just any gospel, but the one and only gospel. Many "gospels" and "christs" abound today. But which one is true? How can you know? Today teachers are a dime a dozen, and almost all bring a false gospel. The Word is the only way to discern the true and false. Scripture tells us without faith it is impossible to please God. It also says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Scripture says every believer is given the Holy Spirit, and they have witness in themselves they are children of God.

You have notions about who you think God is, and can not reconcile many doctrines in your mind. Even though you can not understand a particular doctrine at this time, just leave it open. Don't harden yourself against the truth. If and when God is pleased to open these things, then you will understand. Scripture says all who truly seek Him shall find Him. Most seek on their own terms, not God's terms. Suffer not the little children to come to Him, which means come without preconceptions, but as a child. Every aspect of salvation must be given from above, this includes trust, faith, the new heart, repentance, ect.. The friend who wants to borrow three loaves at midnight is only answered because of his importunity (which means shameless persistence). This is how salvation is also.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6585017 - 02/19/07 11:08 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Fivepointer, care to tell us how you became a Christian? I doubt you became converted after someone approached you as judgmentally as you have approached us here on the Philosophy and Spirituality Boards.

This thread you have started is the reason so many people flee from Christianity. You (and many other Evangelicals) blatantly accuse strangers of being hell bound sinners, yet you provide no evidence to support your statements let alone your doctrine as a whole. You preach love and grace yet you practice exclusion and intolerance. While you may feel you're "doing God's will," you're nothing more than the antithesis of Christ. Where's the love?

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zappaisgod
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6585062 - 02/19/07 11:20 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I'll take my punishment like a man.

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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6585115 - 02/19/07 11:35 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Fivepointer, care to tell us how you became a Christian? I doubt you became converted after someone approached you as judgmentally as you have approached us here on the Philosophy and Spirituality Boards.

This thread you have started is the reason so many people flee from Christianity. You (and many other Evangelicals) blatantly accuse strangers of being hell bound sinners, yet you provide no evidence to support your statements let alone your doctrine as a whole. You preach love and grace yet you practice exclusion and intolerance. While you may feel you're "doing God's will," you're nothing more than the antithesis of Christ. Where's the love?

Good point.

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Ravus
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6585140 - 02/19/07 11:43 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Judeo-Christians have been warning people of an immediately impending apocalypse for over 2,000 years. By now, the probability that it will happen tomorrow is so small that I can say "Fuck Jesus!" without a worry in my little heart.

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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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flower_child
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Ravus]
#6585161 - 02/19/07 11:51 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Did you happen to look at that website I linked to, fivepointer?

You really should take a look at it. It's really quite interesting.

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Anything written above this is just a sorry attempt to seem cool to strangers. It is false information.

:strokebeard:

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Icelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6585191 - 02/19/07 12:01 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

God's Word declares all shall be brought before God in judgment.

Only the white mans Christian Bible states this as far as I know and there is no proofs anywhere that it is the word of God anymore than any other organized religion has a corner on the "word of God".

I myself from personal experience feel that this particular Christian myth is false and based in hatred and fear.

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“What is the ideal for mental health, then? A lived, compelling illusion that does not lie about life, death, and reality; one honest enough to follow its own commandments: I mean, not to kill, not to take the lives of others to justify itself.”
― Ernest Becker

"Beneath the civilized veneer, man remains the supreme predator. Cursed with what he believes is understanding, his true soul blossoms godlike in the heart of the nuclear inferno."

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6585713 - 02/19/07 02:11 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Fivepointer, care to tell us how you became a Christian? I doubt you became converted after someone approached you as judgmentally as you have approached us here on the Philosophy and Spirituality Boards.

I was raised in a non-religious house. When I was little my mother was into Spiritualism with automatic writing and seances. Then she was into the Ruth Montgomery / Edgar Cayce prophesies. My siblings got into reincarnation eastern religion. Since I was small I went along with these things. from the time I was 10 to my conversion at age 35, which was 7 years ago, I renounced all religion and became 100% agnostic Prior to conversion I considered Christians to be deluded and foolish people, as well as all other religious people. Science was my rule, nothing else.

Later the world of psychedelics was explored with about 80 psilocybin 6g trips, salvia, dxm, ghb, nutmeg, alcohol, the usual suspects. What I got out of them was the possibility that maybe there is something more than just physical existence.

People were I work said I had to "accept Jesus". Asking questions of them never got me a straight answer. So I set on my quest to understand Christianity. After several months went by I eventually "accepted", and tried to be a Christian. According to them I was now "saved". I wasn't converted until 6 months later, so for six months I was a false professor, little did I know.

So I tried to be a Christian the best I could. I still didn't understand it really. Traveled to the bookstores hoping to find a book that would explain it, no luck. Listened to TV and radio preachers, this didn't do anything for me. I now know anyone on TV or radio is 99% of the time a false teacher. I was given a Bible but still didn't "get it". I tried to follow what I read the best I could. Something strange was happening, the more I tried to be a "Christian" the more I was going in the opposite direction. The more I tried to love my neighbor, the more I realized I actually despise and hate my neighbor. Eventually over about six weeks this got progressively worse. I kept thinking how could I be a "Christian" and have such wicked thoughts that just seemed to magnify. I become a totally lost ball of ruin. I was a lost wretch, and if I were to be sent to hell it would be what I deserved. At the time I didn't know what was happening to me. This was Holy Spirit conviction, I was being showed who I was, and who Christ was and what His righteousness is. From that point on I knew I was saved. It was like a weight was taken off me. From that point on I "got it", and when I read the Bible I understood what it was saying, like it was a whole new book.

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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. *DELETED* [Re: fivepointer]
#6585784 - 02/19/07 02:29 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Huehuecoyotl

Reason for deletion: irrelevant

Edited by fireworks_god (02/19/07 04:21 PM)

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Psilocybeingzz

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6585791 - 02/19/07 02:32 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I will never accept Jesus in to my heart. And I will never let the light shine on me so to speak. And when I die, I will be recycled. Just as you will be.

The greatest mysteries are still alive and well. A 5,000 year old book didn't slay them, and neither will your religious posturing.

:crankey:

I cast the out!

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Icelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6585792 - 02/19/07 02:32 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

If the Master tells the slave that he will secure mercy if the obeys without question and will be punished by death if he disobeys, that is not love or mercy and is still slavery. Your idea of God is someone who holds a gun to your head and tells you that you have a choice. There is no freedom or joy there. That is why I gave up my "salvation" as a Christian. I wanted to really learn what love was. I didn't want to be a slave to fear of damnation if I didn't do what I was told. I have never regretted that choice even though my family and church spent much time telling me of the terrors that awaited me.

Frankly your concept of the vengeful God seems evil and unconsciousness to me.:(

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6585827 - 02/19/07 02:43 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Imao I thought that too ha ha.

_{Moderator edit: Removed quotation of off-topic comment that has since been edited out of this thread.}

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Edited by fireworks_god (02/19/07 04:23 PM)

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kotik
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6586016 - 02/19/07 03:30 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Scripture says all who truly seek Him shall find Him.

who's scripture? didnt u just mention how none of the gospels are accurate? isn't that the same as scripture?

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music: myspace.com/soundscientists

I have the heart of a child. I keep it in a jar on my shelf.

No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: kotik]
#6586034 - 02/19/07 03:35 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Lol THIS was before he realized that he didn't believe the scriptures because he was in Holy Spirit conviction... Anyways this dude sounds like a bad Hollywood movie scenario.
To the thread starter... don't you think that maybe you had this repulsion to the scripture because you were right to feel that way? And that the best way to find God is to follow what you truly feel, to listen to your intuition?

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6586151 - 02/19/07 03:56 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

So, Fivepointer, what exactly confirmed the validity of the Bible (let alone the existence of God) for you?

I consider myself to be a rational human being, so, maybe if your experience provides the sufficient evidence for the Bible's validity, you will be able to convert myself along with many other Shroomerites, as you have sought to in earnest.

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flower_child
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: flower_child]
#6586200 - 02/19/07 04:05 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

flower_child said:
Did you happen to look at that website I linked to, fivepointer?

You really should take a look at it. It's really quite interesting.

Seriously man, this really put things into perspective for me. It was in another member's signature. I'm really glad I saw it and I think you should see it too, whether you gain anything from it or not.

www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com

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Anything written above this is just a sorry attempt to seem cool to strangers. It is false information.

:strokebeard:

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snakefinder
Stranger

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6586355 - 02/19/07 04:46 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
God's Word declares all shall be brought before God in judgment. All who fall short of the righteous demands of the law shall be punished in the Lake of Fire.

You are given this warning and are also told that God is merciful. His mercy is shown in the fact that Jesus came and saved His people from their sin. You have heard the warnings yet you do not repent from wickedness. You cannot see yourself as a sinner, since your carnal mind can not comprehend itself to be wicked, and therefore can not see the need for salvation. You are secure in your own abilities in the spiritual realm, not realizing that your best spiritual works are a stench outside of Christ's perfect righteousness. You scoff when the Word declares you are spiritually dead and need to be born again. Part of your blindness is the fact you can't see your blindness. Christ came to seek are save the lost. Are you lost? If not you will not be sought or saved. Are you thirsting for righteousness? Only the thirsty are given the living waters. Are you heavy laden with sin? Only the laden are relieved. Have you come with nothing? Come with nothing and eat without price. Grace is sweet only for those in need of it. Oh how I hope that the Spirit might break you and show you sin and righteousness and judgment. Only then can the gospel shine into your heart.

That's not a good way to convince these people of something. You have to offer food and sex to make them listen.

Can you offer them food and sex? No, so give it up.
The truth will not go anyway, it will be there all the time.

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: snakefinder]
#6586366 - 02/19/07 04:48 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

He's proposing an idea for discussion that is philosophical/spiritual in nature. Naturally, there will be ideas and perspectives that not everyone cares for.

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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leery11
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
#6586449 - 02/19/07 05:12 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

thank you for sharing fivepointer, Why do you think your revelation was the only way though? You penetrated through the Bible to its Source, whatever that is right, why did the Source only author one book, if you know what I am inquiring.

Buddhism teaches all the same things that Christianity does, except it does not say that you will fair badly if you do not become a Buddhist, it tells you it is a dangerous snake to be handled with care and treated with skeptical inquiry.

Why do you think every single person with good intention or bad will literally be thrown into a lake of fire?

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falcon
In the green

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6586545 - 02/19/07 05:35 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

What shall be your excuse?

Hey, five pointer are you implying that god is going to give us a chance to make an exuse as we are judged?

Or, is it a rhetorical question intended to grab the attention of the audience?

If it is the latter, this strikes me as a very cynical ploy by one filled with the Holy Spirit.

If it is the former, are you implying that god is a sadist?

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Silversoul
Holon

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
#6586697 - 02/19/07 06:11 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I wonder what fivepointer's excuse will be when Kali comes for him.

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Grok
Has Been a Bad Boy

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
#6586709 - 02/19/07 06:13 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

fivepointer, what will your excuse be when you realize how ridiculous this stuff is? "I was too afraid to think for myself!"

Does the air judge who breaths it? Water who drinks it? Food who eats it? These are the lifegiving forces, and they give unconditionally, they have no preference, that do not decree that one be righteous in their pursuits prior to being given life. That which gives life is God; Love+All life giving earthly forces (these are the same IMO). Your ideas of God are whack. Blindness does indeed include not seeing one's own blindness, that God is all around us, and is us.

Those fearing hell create it on Earth.

Why not chill out and just enjoy 'this' craziness? Why would God need anyone to act a certain way? fivepointer, when was the last time you had an original thought? You are the type who'd likely decree an open mind as an open door for Satan or some such nonsense. Relax.

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Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal

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snakefinder
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Grok]
#6586764 - 02/19/07 06:24 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

The Biblical purge is not really about revenge, justice and whatnot.

It is more like ethnical cleaning. Some people die simply because what they are. And there is no moral at the end of story.

Though, I'm really getting anoyed at people who keep bringing up the idea of hell up, because they say they answer to christianity, but they really answer to catholic teachings, which are very loose interpretations of the bible.

The bible doesn't say you go to hell.
There is no punishment for the "wicked", they simply die of old age, and that's the end of it.

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snakefinder
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Grok]
#6586780 - 02/19/07 06:27 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cilosyb said:
Why would God need anyone to act a certain way?

are you one of those people who say rape is ok as long the woman is good looking?

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Grok]
#6586793 - 02/19/07 06:30 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cilosyb said:
Does the air judge who breaths it? Water who drinks it? Food who eats it? These are the lifegiving forces, and they give unconditionally, they have no preference, that do not decree that one be righteous in their pursuits prior to being given life.

This is my perspective on the matter. Before I form a belief, I first place it agansit the backdrop of that which can be directly perceived and observed within reality.

Personally, I have never observed anything within reality to justify adopting a preconceived notion of g*d. Concepts are excellent frameworks we form in order to assist in our ability to understand and to navigate reality, yet a concept must be derived from an observation or perception within reality in order to be an accurate represention of reality as we can know and understand it.

I myself find it unnecessary and obstructive to pick up a collection of texts and assert to myself that it is a representation of truth. Even history that I have no means of determining is an accurate portrayal of what once occured is not assumed to be absolute truth. I consider its possibillity and I seek to find that which I can learn from it.

I once had an acid trip in the Wisconsin River Valley, on top of a limestone bluff overlooking the river on a hill covered in trees, in a clearing of wild grass and a few conifers. This area of the state is known as the unglaciated area, in that the glaciers of the last Ice Age never imposed themselves on the terrain. This section of the river has literally been there for millions of years.

I could sense the history by observing what existed right then. The properties of the river, its flowing, its subsequent effects... wow I wish I was there right now (I have pictures on a camera that I need to take in and have developed, hopefully they turn out! :cool:

).

We perceive reality and we are able to create a representation of what we perceive, and we have thought processes that allow ourselves to reconstruct the crime scene, so to speak. :smirk:

My point is that I focus on directly perceive that which presents itself to me in the moment, and I subsequently understand and know reality. Its all available in this moment. What I am getting to is that not yet has g*d appeared as g*d is preconceived to be in The Bible. :shrug:

Quote:

fivepointer, when was the last time you had an original thought? You are the type who'd likely decree an open mind as an open door for Satan or some such nonsense. Relax.

Hey, its detrimental to the discussion at hand to speculate in such a manner on the poster. Let's focus on the ideas. Criticize and refute the hell out of them if you wish. The personal nature of the posters involved is not up for debate. :wink:

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: snakefinder]
#6586824 - 02/19/07 06:39 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

snakefinder said:
are you one of those people who say rape is ok as long the woman is good looking?

What relevance does this question have in regards to what he said?

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
#6586830 - 02/19/07 06:40 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I wonder what fivepointer's excuse will be when Kali comes for him.

Jesus Christ I hope Kali never comes for me when I'm on acid or mushrooms. :eek:

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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snakefinder
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
#6586834 - 02/19/07 06:40 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

snakefinder said:
are you one of those people who say rape is ok as long the woman is good looking?

What relevance does this question have in regards to what he said?

Well, he can't think of one reason to behave in a certain way, so I wanted to check if its really true

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elbisivni

Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6586846 - 02/19/07 06:43 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
So I tried to be a Christian the best I could. I still didn't understand it really. Traveled to the bookstores hoping to find a book that would explain it, no luck. Listened to TV and radio preachers, this didn't do anything for me. I now know anyone on TV or radio is 99% of the time a false teacher. I was given a Bible but still didn't "get it". I tried to follow what I read the best I could. Something strange was happening, the more I tried to be a "Christian" the more I was going in the opposite direction. The more I tried to love my neighbor, the more I realized I actually despise and hate my neighbor. Eventually over about six weeks this got progressively worse. I kept thinking how could I be a "Christian" and have such wicked thoughts that just seemed to magnify. I become a totally lost ball of ruin. I was a lost wretch, and if I were to be sent to hell it would be what I deserved. At the time I didn't know what was happening to me. This was Holy Spirit conviction, I was being showed who I was, and who Christ was and what His righteousness is. From that point on I knew I was saved. It was like a weight was taken off me. From that point on I "got it", and when I read the Bible I understood what it was saying, like it was a whole new book.

Don't you think maybe that you were too quick to label things? Too quick to take something beautiful and smash it into somebody else's mold? The transformation you experienced may have been incredible but what if you allowed yourself to interpret it using other peoples words and ideas? I think that if you keep yourself more open to the possibilities, think about all of this stuff outside of the rigid frame of mind imposed on you by other people throughout your life, you'll find much more personal and even more beautiful enlightenment. This wouldn't even necessarily exclude your beliefs but expand on them in a way that will allow you to become something much more.

You did all of those psychedelic drugs yet you seem to accept these beliefs at the whim of an invisible wind. Very odd.. and I'm not saying you're wrong, but what kind of response do you expect from people when you spout off all of the fire & brimstone catholic evangelicals are known for while ignorantly brushing off the beliefs of others? Maybe you should return for a moment back to the mindset you had in which you felt catholics were deluded and foolish and in which science was your only rule, and then assessing again your current beliefs. I think you've been maliciously duped. I mean, do you really not see hypocrisy in pretty much everything you're saying?

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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: snakefinder]
#6586851 - 02/19/07 06:45 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

He didn't assert that he doesn't have reasons and motivations for the manners in which he chooses to act, but he questioned whether or not "God" would need anyone to act in a certain way. Ultimately, I think he is asserting that there is no objective morality that is imposed upon us all.

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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shroomydan
exshroomerite

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6586981 - 02/19/07 07:16 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Suffer not the little children to come to Him,

Careful brother.

Quote:

But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me

Mark 10:14 (King James Version)
http://bible.cc/mark/10-14.htm

Adding a "not" reverses the meaning of a sentence.

I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, it's just that scripture is important and should not be misquoted.

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ck10n3
Imagine

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: shroomydan]
#6588322 - 02/20/07 12:40 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom." - Albert Einstein

"Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion –- several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven." - Mark Twain

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"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

Edited by ck10n3 (02/20/07 10:15 AM)

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Moonshoe

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6588935 - 02/20/07 08:41 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Smile everybody!

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:japsmile:

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Icelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
#6589013 - 02/20/07 09:48 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

You did all of those psychedelic drugs yet you seem to accept these beliefs at the whim of an invisible wind. Very odd.. and I'm not saying you're wrong, but what kind of response do you expect from people when you spout off all of the fire & brimstone catholic evangelicals are known for while ignorantly brushing off the beliefs of others? Maybe you should return for a moment back to the mindset you had in which you felt catholics were deluded and foolish and in which science was your only rule, and then assessing again your current beliefs. I think you've been maliciously duped. I mean, do you really not see hypocrisy in pretty much everything you're saying?

:thumbup:

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shroomydan
exshroomerite

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#6589413 - 02/20/07 12:26 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Fivepointer is not Catholic Icy, he is a protestant fundamentalist who says that catholics are going to hell. Furthermore, there is no such thing as an "evangelical catholic" unless of course you mean a catholic who evangelizes, but that is not how the term "evangelical" is generally used.

Fivepointer's theology is about as far from catholic as you can get and still be considered Christian.

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Veritas

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: shroomydan]
#6589456 - 02/20/07 12:41 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Ice was quoting a previous post by someone else.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: shroomydan]
#6590118 - 02/20/07 03:39 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Just for the record I do not consider myself a "Protestant fundamentalist". In today's setting this almost always means an Arminian (you can look that up). I do not consider Arminianism to be within the bounds of orthodoxy. Roman Catholics and almost all so called "Protestants" today almost all hold to a synergistic justification, the idea that man must sufficiently cooperate with grace to make it effective. I consider this damnable error. I would be a Calvinistic, Old School, Particular Baptist.

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6590317 - 02/20/07 04:29 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I'm a human being. :mushroom2:

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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Basilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6590636 - 02/20/07 05:52 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

It's all politics, fivepointer.

Just love God and enjoy God. Ultimate Reality as we know it does not need the defensive aid of humans. Hearts will be in Awe of Him - and other hearts will simply not desire Him.

In fact - you make it sound as if God is unbearable to be around if He systematically punishes those who don't like His company. God is the treasure of all treasures - the unseen wealth. He is pure gold hidden beneath rocks and cleaves of wood. To suggest that rejecting this treasure warrants damnation is like a King offering a palace to a peasent - and then subjecting him to the Iron maiden and torture boards because he doesn't want the palace. It simply defies logic. It's the peasent's own damn loss that he doesn't want the palace, just as it is the loss of those who so materialistically reject Deity - their punishment is simply continued exile from the Fullness of God; just as the peasent, if deprived of the palace long enough, he will eventually dwell in a self-created Hell that consists not of lakes of fire, but a state of unbearable exile and longing. The soul is said to pass through many lives before its thirst for God can no longer be ignored. And Lo! An ancient vessel has finally made its way home.

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druglord
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Basilides]
#6591120 - 02/20/07 07:24 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

fivepointer, following your deepest intuition doesn't lead everybody to the same conclusion. Even if you are seeking to address the feeling of guilt and corruption by worldly desires (even the desire to eat, for example), there are an infinite number of possible approaches. For many people, Christianity is not even a remote possibility. For anyone to pass judgement on someone else because that person is not living up to their ideals is absurd; to punish them for it is tyranny--nothing more than an exercise of power.

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falcon
In the green

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6591459 - 02/20/07 08:34 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Your explanation is a little confusing. :confused:

Do you consider yourself an Arminian?

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
#6591474 - 02/20/07 08:37 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

What I am interested in hearing is Fivepointer's reasoning behind the Bible's validity and Christianity at large.

What evidence do you base your claims on, Fivepointer?

It is not satisfactory for debate to to say "The Bible is the true, inerrant, and spoken Word of God. And we know this, because the Bible says it is." You must invoke some sort of third party validity check.

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falcon
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6591514 - 02/20/07 08:47 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I like to hear what people say about the bible also. For me the book is very dry and uninspiring. What people have to say about it is interesting. :laugh:

That's not say that it is a dry and uninspiring book, it just doesn't resonate with me.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
#6591598 - 02/20/07 09:02 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Visit a Charismatic Church. (lol)

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falcon
In the green

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6591693 - 02/20/07 09:19 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I tend to get kicked out of places like Charismatic Churches, by big guys in expensive suits. I never have a good reason as to why I should be allowed to stay, so I'm always "excused".

"Excused" seems to be another thing fivepointer could have been implying in his openning question. Which make this whole thread just that much richer. :smile:

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Shattered
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6592213 - 02/20/07 10:58 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Hi fivepointer

You said originally when you tried to be a Christian, love your neighbour, you found yourself going in the opposite direction.

After you 'got it', did that part of you change, to where you can now love your neighbours? Could you tell me a little more about that transition, your observations within yourself?

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
#6594463 - 02/21/07 03:37 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
Your explanation is a little confusing.
Do you consider yourself an Arminian?

No. I am not an Arminian.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6594529 - 02/21/07 03:55 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
What I am interested in hearing is Fivepointer's reasoning behind the Bible's validity and Christianity at large.

What evidence do you base your claims on, Fivepointer?

It is not satisfactory for debate to to say "The Bible is the true, inerrant, and spoken Word of God. And we know this, because the Bible says it is." You must invoke some sort of third party validity check.

How do I know what I believe is true? Every true believer has the witness of the Holy Spirit, which witnesses with the spirit of the believer. I did not have this before conversion.

Every believer is has been given a new heart and nature. This is a drastic difference in the life of the believer.

Man could never have invented the doctrines that compose the gospel, since it says things that man would find greatly offensive and absurd. The fact that it took 1,500 years to complete, yet the message rings throughout all the books with great harmony. The exact way the message is hidden and revealed.

The fact that many events were foretold that came to pass exactly as described.

The testimony of many witnesses that declare of the physical death and physical resurrection of Jesus as well as many miracles performed by Him and His apostles.

These are some of the reasons for knowing what I believe is true.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
#6594538 - 02/21/07 03:58 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
I tend to get kicked out of places like Charismatic Churches, by big guys in expensive suits. I never have a good reason as to why I should be allowed to stay, so I'm always "excused".

"Excused" seems to be another thing fivepointer could have been implying in his openning question. Which make this whole thread just that much richer.

The "Charismatic" movement is a great deception. The doctrines will always expose the true from the false.

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6594554 - 02/21/07 04:02 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Man could never have invented the doctrines that compose the gospel, since it says things that man would find greatly offensive and absurd.

I apologize but this is not a reasonable statement. Human beings are capable of making statements that many others will find offensive and absurd. It happens all the time, even on this website. It happened thousands upon thousands of years ago. If this is your only line of "reasoning" that suggests that man could not have written the texts of the bible completely on their own then you have demonstrated nothing of substance on the matter.

Quote:

The fact that many events were foretold that came to pass exactly as described.

Substantiation, please? Which events? Exactly as described? Elaborate.

Quote:

The testimony of many witnesses that declare of the physical death and physical resurrection of Jesus as well as many miracles performed by Him and His apostles.

Testimonials? Since when are testimonials considered to be truth? Ever read testimonials on those shady pills? "I ate this pill and my dick grew seven inches in two days - J.E.". :lol:

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Shattered]
#6594652 - 02/21/07 04:25 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Shattered said:
Hi fivepointer

You said originally when you tried to be a Christian, love your neighbour, you found yourself going in the opposite direction.

After you 'got it', did that part of you change, to where you can now love your neighbours? Could you tell me a little more about that transition, your observations within yourself?

Does a Christian sin after conversion? Yes. The difference is that a new heart has been given and a new nature implanted. So while a Christian sins it leads to eventual sorrow for that sin. Because act of sin works against the new nature a Christian can not stay in sin. Sin no longer has dominion on the converted.

Because great grace has been poured out on the Christian, this is why he should be gracious to others.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6594871 - 02/21/07 05:19 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
If God gave us his unconditional love, he would give each of us a place in heaven by his side, no matter what, not hand out eternal punishment. If he were omnipotent, yet merciful, there would be no suffering, but there clearly is. Therefore i conclude that your God either doesn't exist, isn't how you think he is or is just not worthy of worship by anyone, for he lacks in the virtuous qualities of compassion. Either way, he is insignificant to my path.

This is logic fivepointer.

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Today teachers are a dime a dozen, and almost all bring a false gospel. The Word is the only way to discern the true and false. Scripture tells us without faith it is impossible to please God. It also says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

And you have heard the word of god? I think that most likely you read/heard the word of man, after countless revisions and editing. Do you discard the ancient texts that have been uncovered and reach for your King James Version that was printed in 1995? How can one discern truth and falsehood by reading a book? Jesus Christ did not author your holy text. How can you so easily disregard ancient documents that are not in accordance with your beliefs? Are they not also records of Jesus' life and teachings? Now, common sense would say that the ancient texts likely contain more truth than the new because they were written a *hell* of a lot closer to the time period. Realistically, they can be given almost no credit for they are simply just words, written by men, in a time where there were very many misconceptions of the nature of reality. Who judges which gospel is true?

--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6594979 - 02/21/07 05:43 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
If God gave us his unconditional love, he would give each of us a place in heaven by his side, no matter what, not hand out eternal punishment. If he were omnipotent, yet merciful, there would be no suffering, but there clearly is. Therefore i conclude that your God either doesn't exist, isn't how you think he is or is just not worthy of worship by anyone, for he lacks in the virtuous qualities of compassion. Either way, he is insignificant to my path.

This is logic fivepointer.

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Today teachers are a dime a dozen, and almost all bring a false gospel. The Word is the only way to discern the true and false. Scripture tells us without faith it is impossible to please God. It also says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

And you have heard the word of god? I think that most likely you read/heard the word of man, after countless revisions and editing. Do you discard the ancient texts that have been uncovered and reach for your King James Version that was printed in 1995? How can one discern truth and falsehood by reading a book? Jesus Christ did not author your holy text. How can you so easily disregard ancient documents that are not in accordance with your beliefs? Are they not also records of Jesus' life and teachings? Now, common sense would say that the ancient texts likely contain more truth than the new because they were written a *hell* of a lot closer to the time period. Realistically, they can be given almost no credit for they are simply just words, written by men, in a time where there were very many misconceptions of the nature of reality. Who judges which gospel is true?

Just to clarify, when I use the term "gospel" I am referring to the doctrines that define the faith, this is the gospel. I am not using the word to mean books of the Bible like the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Galatians uses the word “gospel” in this way:
Gal 1:6-9
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Greek/Hebrew manuscripts are available so you can check the translators. The KJV is based on the Textus Receptus, the received text. The KJV was first printed in 1611 , the commonly used version today is the 1769 update.

These so-called newly discovered "gospels" clearly do not belong in the canon. The content and message does not belong. Also God did not see fit to preserve them by providence and keep them in His Word. God's Word is always preserved.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6595004 - 02/21/07 05:48 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I guess some people just don't get it.....

--------------------

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6595438 - 02/21/07 07:23 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Also God did not see fit to preserve them by providence and keep them in His Word. God's Word is always preserved.

And you know this how?

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elbisivni

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6596331 - 02/22/07 12:21 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity? Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh? From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.

--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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justamonkey
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
#6596378 - 02/22/07 01:00 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Icelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
#6597646 - 02/22/07 01:55 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elbisivni said:
You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity? Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh? From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.

IMO the original poster has no interest in seeing any other views. Of course he sidesteps questions he has no answer for. He, it seems, is not here to learn or discuss anything. He, it seems, is here to preach fundamentalist Christianity as part of his duty for his god. My guess is he is building up credits. I grew up around the dogmatic fundamentalist mindset. In church I was told that to read anything besides Christian literature was sinful and a waste of time. The people in my church were basically uneducated and prone to all sorts of superstitious beliefs. They repeated what they were told in church as mindless drones. Unfortunately my father was one of them. A very unhappy and fear driven man. So sad. He never was able to show any real love because he had none and believed he was a terrible sinner and groveled before his idol to beg forgiveness for being human. The only clear emotions he ever showed me were fear and wrath.:( Fortunately I have let go of much of this and feel much empathy for him and I also do for this poster. Yet I will aways stand against what they preach.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#6597683 - 02/22/07 02:02 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

In church I was told that to read anything besides Christian literature was sinful and a waste of time. The people in my church were basically uneducated and prone to all sorts of superstitious beliefs. They repeated what they were told in church as mindless drones

Same here. People told me that evidence against Christianity was the work of Satan. I was also instructed to avoid any secular texts-- since this would open my mind up to Satan's lies-- irregardless of their topic.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
#6598155 - 02/22/07 03:32 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elbisivni said:
You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity? Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh? From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.

Actually I am not trying to dodge anything. I just do not have the time to answer every question.

No group "pressured" me into anything, I was the agnostic's agnostic. I merely came with an open mind to the scriptures and they opened up to me. God reveals the gospel to those He intends to save, it is entirely a free gift. I do not see what I believe as contraining or ignorant, I see it as the wisdom of God, and a joyous thing.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6598184 - 02/22/07 03:38 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

Also God did not see fit to preserve them by providence and keep them in His Word. God's Word is always preserved.

And you know this how?

By the scriptures and nature of God. God is in charge of every event, every hair on a head. The notion that God can not preserve His Word is really saying God is not in omnipotent and can be frustrated by men. This "God" does not exist in scripture.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6598199 - 02/22/07 03:41 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Also God did not see fit to preserve them by providence and keep them in His Word

Who are you to decide that "God" did not want the lost gospels as part of the orthodox doctrine?

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6598219 - 02/22/07 03:45 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Because otherwise he wouldn't have let man change the books of the Bible, duh. :hehehe:

Either god is directly responsible for all action or no action. There is no middle-ground.

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
#6598244 - 02/22/07 03:49 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

This thread is pointless. I'm beginning to think that FivePointer is 100% smug in his current theology and has no intentions of even considering that he is at fault.

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6598265 - 02/22/07 03:52 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
This thread is pointless. I'm beginning to think that FivePointer is 100% smug in his current theology and has no intentions of even considering that he is at fault.

Its quite possible that he is, yet these are the ideas that are presented, and one can take the discussion or leave it. :shrug:

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: justamonkey]
#6598430 - 02/22/07 04:19 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Here's some applied logic of Christianity, filtered through Casteneda...it ought to be interesting, so read it up!

1. The world is evil. (All things worldly, ya know, gossip, useless power sapping soap opera stuff) Christian....but also Casteneda.

Christian method to fix #1, blame imperfection and beg for forgiveness.

The world is evil, no doubt, and no method fixes it.

Castaneda's method to fix #1, Stop the world. Do not involve yourself with it. It is useless waste of time and power.

2. The Afterlife

Christianity's view: Don't do 'bad' or you'll burn in Hell!

No one does good, and all are bad, so it is not a matter of not doing bad to avoid hell. Scripture is clear that "doing good" can never be a means to avoid hell. Salvation is not by merits, but solely by grace without works.

Casteneda's view: Afterlife? You suck at this life, get it right first!

3. Love and Acceptance

Christianity: God forgives you for being evil, so through his unconditional love, he gives you this CONDITION: Be good or burn forever.

This is openly false and opposed to Christian theology. Salvation has NO CONDITIONS. The elect are saved DESPITE who they are, not BECAUSE what they do. Everything is given from above. Faith, repentence, ect are not means of becoming justified, they are evidences of the justification that was freely given.

Casteneda: Nothing is personal, not love, not hate, nothing. It is all based on our own point of view, and that is all that matters.

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6598437 - 02/22/07 04:19 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

elbisivni said:
You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity? Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh? From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.

Actually I am not trying to dodge anything. I just do not have the time to answer every question.

No group "pressured" me into anything, I was the agnostic's agnostic. I merely came with an open mind to the scriptures and they opened up to me. God reveals the gospel to those He intends to save, it is entirely a free gift. I do not see what I believe as contraining or ignorant, I see it as the wisdom of God, and a joyous thing.

You remind me of that South Park episode about the Mormons... :lol:

But anyways... it all comes down to... whatever makes you feel safe dude...
After all, everyone perceives God according to our needs and in very much similarity to our own character and personality... In a word, the God you have in mind is a reflection of what you feel about yourself.

--------------------

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6598470 - 02/22/07 04:26 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
The world is evil, no doubt, and no method fixes it.

A.) Define "evil" as you have come to understand and utilize it.

B.) Does not right action and understanding work towards resolving the root causes of what may be defined as "evil"?

Quote:

This is openly false and opposed to Christian theology. Salvation has NO CONDITIONS. The elect are saved DESPITE who they are, not BECAUSE what they do. Everything is given from above.

So, if someone cannot act in any manner that would ensure salvation, then what is the distinction between those who are saved and those who are condemned?

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#6598544 - 02/22/07 04:38 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

elbisivni said:
You're ignoring a lot of viable questions being presented in this thread, is this for convenience due to lack of sufficient defensive/compelling evidence and a lack of true knowledge that can be the result of much needed clarity? Two-stepping around questions, providing insufficiently founded answers, etc., but I suppose this is how said system works huh? From my point of view it seems like a lot of people here are attempting to help you see the constraints and ignorance you've adopted as a result of the questionable group that first pressured you to accept Christianity.

IMO the original poster has no interest in seeing any other views. Of course he sidesteps questions he has no answer for. He, it seems, is not here to learn or discuss anything. He, it seems, is here to preach fundamentalist Christianity as part of his duty for his god. My guess is he is building up credits. I grew up around the dogmatic fundamentalist mindset. In church I was told that to read anything besides Christian literature was sinful and a waste of time. The people in my church were basically uneducated and prone to all sorts of superstitious beliefs. They repeated what they were told in church as mindless drones. Unfortunately my father was one of them. A very unhappy and fear driven man. So sad. He never was able to show any real love because he had none and believed he was a terrible sinner and groveled before his idol to beg forgiveness for being human. The only clear emotions he ever showed me were fear and wrath.:( Fortunately I have let go of much of this and feel much empathy for him and I also do for this poster. Yet I will aways stand against what they preach.

"Fundamentalist" really is not an accurate term for me for those familiar with theological terms.

No Christian "builds up credits", this sounds like Roman Catholicism. They teach such a works salvation. A Christian has ALREADY been forgiven, apart from any merits, and has FULL assurance of the forgiveness. The motivation of a believer is thanksgiving, not fear. I don't know your father's theology but it does not sound orthodox.

Most teachings in Christendom are false. If I approach a so called Christian and ask them for specifics of what they believe, they really have no clue, and most don't even read the Bible! They are drones. They do not believe the gospel that I believe in. The churches are a sea of wolves and a real disaster.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6598619 - 02/22/07 04:51 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
This thread is pointless. I'm beginning to think that FivePointer is 100% smug in his current theology and has no intentions of even considering that he is at fault.

Your right. A believer by definition knows what he believes in. If I were to say "I'm considering my beliefs", then I'm not a believer, I'm an agnostic.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6598692 - 02/22/07 05:06 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Your right. A believer by definition knows what he believes in. If I were to say "I'm considering my beliefs", then I'm not a believer, I'm an agnostic.

It is possible to believe in something yet not be certain.

Consider the following example:

I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow, but I am not certain that it will. I acknowledge the fact that it is possible the sun will not rise.

You are saying that in order to believe in something, you cannot even have questions or concerns as to the validity of that belief. In my opinion, what you're describing is ignorance, not reasonable belief.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
#6598744 - 02/22/07 05:17 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

A.) Define "evil" as you have come to understand and utilize it.

How do we know what evil is? By the law. The when the law is broken it gives evidence of being evil. The law is a killing instrument, it testifies to the nature of man. The nature of fallen man is to think that law keeping obtains merits, this is the basis of most false religion, a self-righteous delusion.

B.) Does not right action and understanding work towards resolving the root causes of what may be defined as "evil"?

The root cause of evil is fact that man is fallen. Nothing can fix that, short of conversion.

Quote:

This is openly false and opposed to Christian theology. Salvation has NO CONDITIONS. The elect are saved DESPITE who they are, not BECAUSE what they do. Everything is given from above.

So, if someone cannot act in any manner that would ensure salvation, then what is the distinction between those who are saved and those who are condemned?

The grace of God is the only distiction. This is why boasting is excluded. A saved person can not say I did X, Y or Z to get saved, then he would have a reason to boast and hold this over others heads. Grace is freely given, not given upon meeting a condition. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy.

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Sinbad
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6598908 - 02/22/07 05:43 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
No one does good, and all are bad, so it is not a matter of not doing bad to avoid hell. Scripture is clear that "doing good" can never be a means to avoid hell. Salvation is not by merits, but solely by grace without works.

This is the crux of your rotten philosophy. Good can and is frequently done in the world. Hell is a state brought to fruition through negative deeds, just as heaven is a state brought to fruition through positive seeds. Nothing can manifest without a cause, this is clearly the case from a scientific point of view, just as it is from a spiriutal.

If your God condemns good people to hell simply becuase they do not believe, then he is a seriously flawed being who is not deserving of worship by anyone. In fact, if there is an omnipotent God who forsakes any of his children to eternal suffering, whatever they have done, then he is lacking in the virtuous qualities of uncoditional love and compassion, and on such grounds should be rejected as an object worthy of veneration or devotion.

If your God was omnipotent and had unconditional love such as you claim, there would be no suffering in this world at all, as such a being would not allow it to take place in the domain of his own creation. It simply makes no sense.

You can say that we have fallen, and it is our fault. But a compasisoante, omnipotent God would not allow for such a fall in the first place. Why would he make a less than perfect situation for his children, that he loves so dearly?

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6598916 - 02/22/07 05:45 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
How do we know what evil is? By the law. The when the law is broken it gives evidence of being evil.

The law is at the whim of human beings. Laws change, laws can be reversed. Are you asserting that anyone who uses hallucinogenic mushrooms is "evil"?

Quote:

The root cause of evil is fact that man is fallen. Nothing can fix that, short of conversion.

Man is "fallen"? What does that mean? What have I personally done to receive prior judgement?

Quote:

The grace of God is the only distiction. This is why boasting is excluded. A saved person can not say I did X, Y or Z to get saved, then he would have a reason to boast and hold this over others heads. Grace is freely given, not given upon meeting a condition. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy.

So then how do you know that some are saved and some are not, and what distinction does God make in determining this? If one cannot know that one is saved by one's actions, then how can one know that another has been condemned?

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
#6599075 - 02/22/07 06:14 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
How do we know what evil is? By the law. The when the law is broken it gives evidence of being evil.

The law is at the whim of human beings. Laws change, laws can be reversed. Are you asserting that anyone who uses hallucinogenic mushrooms is "evil"?

I was not referring to political laws. The law refers to what the scripture defines as law.

Quote:

The root cause of evil is fact that man is fallen. Nothing can fix that, short of conversion.

Man is "fallen"? What does that mean? What have I personally done to receive prior judgement?

Man is imputed guilty in Adam and condemned in Adam. Man also inherits a fallen nature due to the effects of the Fall.

Quote:

The grace of God is the only distiction. This is why boasting is excluded. A saved person can not say I did X, Y or Z to get saved, then he would have a reason to boast and hold this over others heads. Grace is freely given, not given upon meeting a condition. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy.

So then how do you know that some are saved and some are not, and what distinction does God make in determining this? If one cannot know that one is saved by one's actions, then how can one know that another has been condemned?

Those who believe the gospel are saved. The belief of the gospel is the immediate fruit of salvation. Everyone that God intends to save will in good time hear the gospel and believe it. There is no salvation without the new birth, belief of the gospel, and giving of the Holy Spirit.

Many can appear to have many outwardly appearing good deeds, but this is not how one determines if someone is a Christian. The doctrine they hold to, what they believe about who Christ is and what He has done, defines the gospel. These doctrines cut right into the heart and is how a Christian decides who is and is not a fellow Christian.

What causes God to save one and not another? This is according to His good pleasure alone.

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Basilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6599128 - 02/22/07 06:21 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

What causes God to save one and not another? This is according to His good pleasure alone.

Exactly. Now kindly stop assuming on His behalf.

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6599137 - 02/22/07 06:23 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Those who believe the gospel are saved. The belief of the gospel is the immediate fruit of salvation. Everyone that God intends to save will in good time hear the gospel and believe it. There is no salvation without the new birth, belief of the gospel, and giving of the Holy Spirit.

Many can appear to have many outwardly appearing good deeds, but this is not how one determines if someone is a Christian. The doctrine they hold to, what they believe about who Christ is and what He has done, defines the gospel. These doctrines cut right into the heart and is how a Christian decides who is and is not a fellow Christian.

And what will happen to the Buddhists? They don't believe the gospel but they seem like very nice people, so much more then Christians. Will God save them? :confused:

Quote:

fivepointer said:
What causes God to save one and not another? This is according to His good pleasure alone.

If that's so, would you be ok of God would consider you unworthy of being saved?

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6599144 - 02/22/07 06:25 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And what will happen to the Buddhists? They don't believe the gospel but they seem like very nice people, so much more then Christians. Will God save them?

Don't you know anything? God only saves assholes who push their beliefs on others.

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
#6599155 - 02/22/07 06:27 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And what will happen to the Buddhists? They don't believe the gospel but they seem like very nice people, so much more then Christians. Will God save them?

Don't you know anything? God only saves assholes who push their beliefs on others.

Lol

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elbisivni

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Sinbad]
#6599232 - 02/22/07 06:42 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Seems just about as pointless as a who-is-less-competitive competition doesn't it?

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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6599320 - 02/22/07 07:03 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Those who believe the gospel are saved. The belief of the gospel is the immediate fruit of salvation. Everyone that God intends to save will in good time hear the gospel and believe it. There is no salvation without the new birth, belief of the gospel, and giving of the Holy Spirit.

Many can appear to have many outwardly appearing good deeds, but this is not how one determines if someone is a Christian. The doctrine they hold to, what they believe about who Christ is and what He has done, defines the gospel. These doctrines cut right into the heart and is how a Christian decides who is and is not a fellow Christian.

And what will happen to the Buddhists? They don't believe the gospel but they seem like very nice people, so much more then Christians. Will God save them?

Quote:

fivepointer said:
What causes God to save one and not another? This is according to His good pleasure alone.

If that's so, would you be ok of God would consider you unworthy of being saved?

Yes, I am unworthy of being saved, as is everyone else.

Many seemingly "good people" will end up in hell. Why? Because they do not have a righteousness that meets up to God's demands. The only righteousness the will be accepted is Christ's alone. As far as Buddhists, if one dies as a Buddhist, then this proves that they are under God's wrath and will end in the Lake of Fire.

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6599347 - 02/22/07 07:13 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

As far as Buddhists, if one dies as a Buddhist, then this proves that they are under God's wrath and will end in the Lake of Fire.

I don't think that's going to be a problem for them.

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6599350 - 02/22/07 07:14 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

When we dye we don't have material bodies anymore (duh) so what will that lake of fire will do to the spirits? Don't you think it's just as in vain as one slapping the air?

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Basilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6599374 - 02/22/07 07:19 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Fundamentalism, LOL

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6599455 - 02/22/07 07:40 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Many seemingly "good people" will end up in hell. Why? Because they do not have a righteousness that meets up to God's demands.

But you've already asserted that one could not know how g*d discerns who he will save and who he will condemn. If you do not know g*d's demands, then you cannot state knowingly that many people will end up in "hell" - that is, if you, at the same time, have the slightest bit of interest in maintaining a set of beliefs that, at the very least, are consistent.

Quote:

As far as Buddhists, if one dies as a Buddhist, then this proves that they are under God's wrath and will end in the Lake of Fire.

How does this prove that they will suffer g*d's wrath? You've stated yourself that one cannot know whether or not one or others will be saved by their own actions, and considering oneself a "Buddhist" or a "Christian" are actions.

Please do inform us as to how you cannot know how g*d determines who will be condemned and who will be saved, but yet you continue to assert who will be condemned and who will be saved. It clearly cannot be both. Please enlighten us.

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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Cracka_X
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6599533 - 02/22/07 08:01 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
God's Word declares all shall be brought before God in judgment. All who fall short of the righteous demands of the law shall be punished in the Lake of Fire.

You are given this warning and are also told that God is merciful. His mercy is shown in the fact that Jesus came and saved His people from their sin. You have heard the warnings yet you do not repent from wickedness. You cannot see yourself as a sinner, since your carnal mind can not comprehend itself to be wicked, and therefore can not see the need for salvation. You are secure in your own abilities in the spiritual realm, not realizing that your best spiritual works are a stench outside of Christ's perfect righteousness. You scoff when the Word declares you are spiritually dead and need to be born again. Part of your blindness is the fact you can't see your blindness. Christ came to seek are save the lost. Are you lost? If not you will not be sought or saved. Are you thirsting for righteousness? Only the thirsty are given the living waters. Are you heavy laden with sin? Only the laden are relieved. Have you come with nothing? Come with nothing and eat without price. Grace is sweet only for those in need of it. Oh how I hope that the Spirit might break you and show you sin and righteousness and judgment. Only then can the gospel shine into your heart.

We should start a crusade.

Just like we need people to work at McDonalds and be Garbage Men, we need people to goto hell. and if what you say is true, then I guess I'm going to burn. Please live YOUR life and I'll live MINE the way I believe is right.

--------------------
Click here to check out lineups for Magnoliafest and Springfest in Live Oak, FL

The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao ~Tao Te Ching/Daodejing
"Find what you're looking for by not looking for it." ~Old Hippie Philosophy

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leery11
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Cracka_X]
#6599724 - 02/22/07 08:42 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

there is a Bible passage that states that there is a spirit world, and that Jesus preached in it that people may be saved...... how exactly does this fit in with eternal punishment?

the picture of the monk is a very good point.... would their concentrative abilities disappear in hell, causing them to be phased by fire...... ? can you honestly say they were not doing the work of God that they would be so selfless and Christ-like to do this for a cause they believed in? Is this not an extreme example of taking up one's own cross in order to follow what they belive?

why use fear of hell and punishment to convince people about grace, why not make a thread that openly describes the rewards of love and benevolence and peace that will come through following Christ.

at any rate, I am working my way through the New Testament right now to see what happens.

Edited by leery11 (02/22/07 08:44 PM)

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6599874 - 02/22/07 09:25 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
When we dye we don't have material bodies anymore (duh) so what will that lake of fire will do to the spirits?

Perhaps this lake of fire is a spiritual fire. Something like this:

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
#6599882 - 02/22/07 09:27 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Looks like an acid trip. :wink:

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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Icelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: leery11]
#6601290 - 02/23/07 08:07 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

why use fear of hell and punishment to convince people about grace, why not make a thread that openly describes the rewards of love and benevolence and peace that will come through following Christ.

For me the answer is clear. Fundamentalist christians don't feel grace or love. Those are just concepts in their minds. What IMO is felt is guilt, self loathing and fear of punishment with real clarity. That's why they continually harp on this. When they believe they are saved then that dulls the fear trip they are on. This is what they call grace and love. It's on the back burner for sure and they can't really feel it like they can their blanket fear of hell. So they use what they know best.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#6603246 - 02/23/07 04:53 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
If your God condemns good people to hell simply because they do not believe, then he is a seriously flawed being who is not deserving of worship by anyone. In fact, if there is an omnipotent God who forsakes any of his children to eternal suffering, whatever they have done, then he is lacking in the virtuous qualities of unconditional love and compassion, and on such grounds should be rejected as an object worthy of veneration or devotion.

If your God was omnipotent and had unconditional love such as you claim, there would be no suffering in this world at all, as such a being would not allow it to take place in the domain of his own creation. It simply makes no sense.

You can say that we have fallen, and it is our fault. But a compassionate, omnipotent God would not allow for such a fall in the first place. Why would he make a less than perfect situation for his children, that he loves so dearly?

Nicely said! :smile:

"God" gave us (some of us anyways) brains that can reason and utilize logic. He has doomed us to an eternity of suffering because he knew how each one of us would think before he created us. He made sure that we would question blind faith and instead simply observe nature to arrive at a more reasonable interpretation of reality. He has forseen all of this, for he is all-knowing, but has still condemned us to hell.

Fivepointer, you really need to think about this paradox. This logic is your true salvation. I am afraid that if this does not make sense to you, then you will never be able to realize truth. By the way, do you know what unconditional means? Come on man, this is an easy one too! JUST THINK ABOUT IT!

--------------------

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
#6603361 - 02/23/07 05:24 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Many seemingly "good people" will end up in hell. Why? Because they do not have a righteousness that meets up to God's demands.

But you've already asserted that one could not know how g*d discerns who he will save and who he will condemn. If you do not know g*d's demands, then you cannot state knowingly that many people will end up in "hell" - that is, if you, at the same time, have the slightest bit of interest in maintaining a set of beliefs that, at the very least, are consistent.

Quote:

As far as Buddhists, if one dies as a Buddhist, then this proves that they are under God's wrath and will end in the Lake of Fire.

How does this prove that they will suffer g*d's wrath? You've stated yourself that one cannot know whether or not one or others will be saved by their own actions, and considering oneself a "Buddhist" or a "Christian" are actions.

Please do inform us as to how you cannot know how g*d determines who will be condemned and who will be saved, but yet you continue to assert who will be condemned and who will be saved. It clearly cannot be both. Please enlighten us.

The scripture is clear that those who inherit eternal life have been ordained to that end, and that salvation is a free gift of grace without works. However salvation does not happen without means. Every one who will inherit eternal life will, before they die, be converted and believe the gospel. I can not say a Buddhist will definately go to hell, because I don't know that he won't be converted prior to his death. I can say a current Buddhist is unregenerate.

There is no contradiction involved. Salvation is 100% not contingent on personal acts or merits, at the same time it is true that every saved person will believe the gospel. The belief of the gospel is not what merited the salvation, the belief of the gospel is the immediate fruit and evidence of salvation.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: leery11]
#6603442 - 02/23/07 05:47 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
there is a Bible passage that states that there is a spirit world, and that Jesus preached in it that people may be saved...... how exactly does this fit in with eternal punishment?

the picture of the monk is a very good point.... would their concentrative abilities disappear in hell, causing them to be phased by fire...... ? can you honestly say they were not doing the work of God that they would be so selfless and Christ-like to do this for a cause they believed in? Is this not an extreme example of taking up one's own cross in order to follow what they belive?

why use fear of hell and punishment to convince people about grace, why not make a thread that openly describes the rewards of love and benevolence and peace that will come through following Christ.

at any rate, I am working my way through the New Testament right now to see what happens.

I think your referring to:
1Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

This is a snip from John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible on this verse:
The plain and easy sense of the words is, that Christ, by his Spirit, by which he was quickened, went in the ministry of Noah, the preacher of righteousness, and preached both by words and deeds, by the personal ministry of Noah, and by the building of the ark, to that generation who was then in being; and who being disobedient, and continuing so, a flood was brought upon them which destroyed them all; and whose spirits, or separate souls, were then in the prison of hell, so the Syriac version renders it, lwyvb, "in hell", see Re 20:7 when the Apostle Peter wrote this epistle; so that Christ neither went into this prison, nor preached in it, nor to spirits that were then in it when he preached, but to persons alive in the days of Noah, and who being disobedient, when they died, their separate souls were put into prison, and there they were when the apostle wrote: from whence we learn, that Christ was, that he existed in his divine nature before he was incarnate, he was before Abraham, he was in the days of Noah; and that Christ also, under the Old Testament, acted the part of a Mediator, in his divine nature, and by his Spirit discharged that branch of it, his prophetic office, before he appeared in human nature; and that the Gospel was preached in those early times, as unto Abraham, so before him.

Hell is not about being able to meditate.

You seem to think sincerity can count towards one's salvation when you say look how the monk's are so selfless and Christ-like. These monks, who do not bring the gospel, are not doing God's will, they are working against Christ with a false gospel of deadly self-rightous religion.

Why preach about hell and damnation? It is an essential ingredient of the gospel, the righteousness of God. The whole gospel should be preached, not excluding any part.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6603468 - 02/23/07 05:55 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
If your God condemns good people to hell simply because they do not believe, then he is a seriously flawed being who is not deserving of worship by anyone. In fact, if there is an omnipotent God who forsakes any of his children to eternal suffering, whatever they have done, then he is lacking in the virtuous qualities of unconditional love and compassion, and on such grounds should be rejected as an object worthy of veneration or devotion.

If your God was omnipotent and had unconditional love such as you claim, there would be no suffering in this world at all, as such a being would not allow it to take place in the domain of his own creation. It simply makes no sense.

You can say that we have fallen, and it is our fault. But a compassionate, omnipotent God would not allow for such a fall in the first place. Why would he make a less than perfect situation for his children, that he loves so dearly?

Nicely said!

"God" gave us (some of us anyways) brains that can reason and utilize logic. He has doomed us to an eternity of suffering because he knew how each one of us would think before he created us. He made sure that we would question blind faith and instead simply observe nature to arrive at a more reasonable interpretation of reality. He has forseen all of this, for he is all-knowing, but has still condemned us to hell.

Fivepointer, you really need to think about this paradox. This logic is your true salvation. I am afraid that if this does not make sense to you, then you will never be able to realize truth. By the way, do you know what unconditional means? Come on man, this is an easy one too! JUST THINK ABOUT IT!

God does not merely foresee events, He causes all events to come to pass.

Unconditional love is only for those He indends to save. This is why grace is free and apart from merits. The reprobate (those He intends to damn) are not loved, they are hated. God does not love those in hell. I suggest you ponder Romans chapter 9.

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6603502 - 02/23/07 06:05 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Unconditional love is only for those He indends to save.

Then by definition, it is not unconditional.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
#6603519 - 02/23/07 06:11 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Unconditional love is only for those He indends to save.

Then by definition, it is not unconditional.

I don't see you logic. Salvation is a free gift, unconditional love. If it had a condition, then it would be a reward for a work and would cease to be unconditional.

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SoY
I am the LizardKing

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6604864 - 02/24/07 05:09 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

According to you, fivepointer, the condition is whether he likes you enough or not. Your arguments are illogical, irrational, and downright stupid. :thumbdown:

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6604931 - 02/24/07 06:32 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
According to you, fivepointer, the condition is whether he likes you enough or not. Your arguments are illogical, irrational, and downright stupid.

What reason would God have to like a sinner? There is no reason. But despite this He gives some what they do not deserve, mercy. No one is owed mercy, and if it is not given no injustice is committed.

The real insult to the "religious man" is that he is told he can do nothing pleasing to God outside of Christ. Self-righeous religionists had Jesus crucified, and this same group is still opposing Christ and His gospel of unconditional grace.

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BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605042 - 02/24/07 08:03 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Are you saying that if someone does not think the exact way you do they are going to burn in the lake of fire for all eternity? Yet you believe in freedom? If someone has the same morals as you and lives the same lifestyle they will suffer? What if a man was born and captured and forced to live in a cage his entire life and a bible was never handed to him... Will his fate be the lake of fire?

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BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605046 - 02/24/07 08:06 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

What about all the native americans who lived their entire lives without ever knowing about the gospel(because it was never introduced to them)... Lake of fire? You logic is very flawed.

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Psilocybeingzz

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605054 - 02/24/07 08:11 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

God if it exists at all, does not meddle in the petty affairs of men. When you di I see two things happening for sure. Your brain shutting down, your body decomposing. Scary stuff. :shocked:

I know some people get nervous thinking about death, but let me assure you, it will be nothing like you imagined.

YOU WILL DIE ONE DAY. And you have NO IDEA what will come next. IF anbything does at all. Chances are you will just die.

But your fear has built a lovely little construction of what will happen. And of course the "bad" people will be punished. :rolleyes:

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
#6605058 - 02/24/07 08:13 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

If God were to punish anyone, I assume it would be those who hold back our spiritual evolution.

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BuddahKillah
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
#6605073 - 02/24/07 08:22 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:

And of course the people who do not think exactly like you will be punished.

The fourth reich has arrived!

I honestly have no problems with you beliefs. I do have a problem with the fact that you condemn others for thinking differently.

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Sinbad
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605123 - 02/24/07 08:53 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

SoY said:
According to you, fivepointer, the condition is whether he likes you enough or not. Your arguments are illogical, irrational, and downright stupid.

What reason would God have to like a sinner? There is no reason. But despite this He gives some what they do not deserve, mercy. No one is owed mercy, and if it is not given no injustice is committed.

The real insult to the "religious man" is that he is told he can do nothing pleasing to God outside of Christ. Self-righeous religionists had Jesus crucified, and this same group is still opposing Christ and His gospel of unconditional grace.

If he has no unconditional love for all his children, no matter how they are suffering for thier own mistakes, then he has no compassion, and is not worthy of worship by anyone. If grace were really unconditional, then why must we believe in order to receive it?

A truly compassionate God who knew the the variations and propensities of all beings, would not set himself for or against anyone with likes or dislikes. It would be totally nonsensical and against his compassionate and unlimited nature to create beings and then judge and be angry with them because they do not believe or conform to some dogmatic way of seeing. It doesn't make sense and is contrary to divine and conventional wisdom alike.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BuddahKillah]
#6605129 - 02/24/07 08:56 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
What about all the native americans who lived their entire lives without ever knowing about the gospel(because it was never introduced to them)... Lake of fire? You logic is very flawed.

Hundreds of millions of people have never heard any gospel their entire life. If someone lives and dies and never heard any gospel before they died: they will not be saved. God teaches each and every one of His people the gospel and converts them.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BuddahKillah]
#6605141 - 02/24/07 09:00 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:

And of course the people who do not think exactly like you will be punished.

The fourth reich has arrived!

I honestly have no problems with you beliefs. I do have a problem with the fact that you condemn others for thinking differently.

I don't condemn anyone. God does the condemning.

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Sinbad
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605147 - 02/24/07 09:06 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:

And of course the people who do not think exactly like you will be punished.

The fourth reich has arrived!

I honestly have no problems with you beliefs. I do have a problem with the fact that you condemn others for thinking differently.

I don't condemn anyone. God does the condemning.

If God condemns his children for thinking differently, or believing other things, then he is not a good or just God at all, and as i said earlier, not worthy of worship by anyone.

Your POV is just bog standard backward fundamentalist thinking. You have ceased to think for yourself, and have surrendered your will to a closed minded doctrine of separation. This POV is contrary to your own spiritual evolution, and you will suffer more than anyone else will for it.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Sinbad]
#6605186 - 02/24/07 09:25 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

SoY said:
According to you, fivepointer, the condition is whether he likes you enough or not. Your arguments are illogical, irrational, and downright stupid.

What reason would God have to like a sinner? There is no reason. But despite this He gives some what they do not deserve, mercy. No one is owed mercy, and if it is not given no injustice is committed.

The real insult to the "religious man" is that he is told he can do nothing pleasing to God outside of Christ. Self-righeous religionists had Jesus crucified, and this same group is still opposing Christ and His gospel of unconditional grace.

If he has no unconditional love for all his children, no matter how they are suffering for thier own mistakes, then he has no compassion, and is not worthy of worship by anyone. If grace were really unconditional, then why must we believe in order to receive it?

A truly compassionate God who knew the the variations and propensities of all beings, would not set himself for or against anyone with likes or dislikes. It would be totally nonsensical and against his compassionate and unlimited nature to create beings and then judge and be angry with them because they do not believe or conform to some dogmatic way of seeing. It doesn't make sense and is contrary to divine and conventional wisdom alike.

God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children. Those under wrath are not His children.

As far as the role of faith in salvation. Since every part of salvation is freely given, this includes the act of believing. The belief is not a requirement, it is a gift. People are born condemned, the act of unbelief does not condemn them per se, it exposes that fact that they are already condemned since their unregenerated heart resists the gospel truths.

Christ met every demand of the law on behalf of His people, He is the sole cause of justification. Men's belief or any other work, can not enter into a cause of justification. Justification by faith only means that faith observes and makes known to the mind the justification, it does not cause the justification to happen.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605204 - 02/24/07 09:34 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

So, why would the 'selcted ones' been 'tested' through this existence here on earth ?
This is the main paradox, at least for me.
To prove the selection ? Sounds like circle-reasoning.

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605209 - 02/24/07 09:37 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children.

You mean there is another creator other than God??? :shocked:

This sounds like dangerous Gnostic heresy! :nono:

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BlueCoyote
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
#6605221 - 02/24/07 09:40 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

aeh, to five:
And what if a selected one looses his faith ? Or doesn't get it in a lifetime ?

--------------------
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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
#6605239 - 02/24/07 09:49 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children.

You mean there is another creator other than God???

This sounds like dangerous Gnostic heresy!

God raised up Pharaoh, and hardened his heart. Pharaoh was a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction. Does God love Pharaoh?

Notice the reply in the verses below. How can he find fault with Pharaoh if he was hardened? The answer is astonishing, who are you to reply against God? Two kinds of vessels in this world, vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, both are according to God's purposes.

Roman 9:17-24
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605243 - 02/24/07 09:49 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Fivepointer, what about those Christian priests who sexually abuse little children?
Of course, they believe in the Gospel and all and besides that, they preach it... will they be forgiven for abusing little children just because they believe in the gospel?

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6605251 - 02/24/07 09:54 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Fivepointer, what about those Christian priests who sexually abuse little children?

FYI, fivepointer hates Catholics.

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
#6605264 - 02/24/07 10:01 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Fivepointer, what about those Christian priests who sexually abuse little children?

FYI, fivepointer hates Catholics.

Damn!:)

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6605266 - 02/24/07 10:02 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Fivepointer, what about those Christian priests who sexually abuse little children?
Of course, they believe in the Gospel and all and besides that, they preach it... will they be forgiven for abusing little children just because they believe in the gospel?

Roman Catholicism is a false gospel, they believe a counterfeit gospel not THE ONE AND ONLY GOSPEL. If a priest who abused children were to become saved, and believe the real gospel in the future, then any and all sin is forgiven. If this happened he would cease being a Roman Catholic at conversion, and would certainly not continue in a life of such wickedness.

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605300 - 02/24/07 10:19 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

So you're saying that one can go around raping, killing, stealing and so on, and then if he becomes a real Christian and believes the gospel he's saved and forgiven... and that someone who lives his life in peace and radiates love everywhere he goes... but does not believe in the gospel... goes to hell.
Right? :rolleyes:

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6605425 - 02/24/07 11:08 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
aeh, to five:
And what if a selected one looses his faith ? Or doesn't get it in a lifetime ?

A selected one will never loose faith after they are converted. Many who are not selected say they have faith, but then fall away. They never had any salvation to begin with. You can't have true salvation and later loose it.

Every selected one will at sometime in their life be converted and believe. The elect will all be converted. You can not be one of the elect and not be converted before you die.

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BuddahKillah
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605429 - 02/24/07 11:09 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
What about all the native americans who lived their entire lives without ever knowing about the gospel(because it was never introduced to them)... Lake of fire? You logic is very flawed.

Hundreds of millions of people have never heard any gospel their entire life. If someone lives and dies and never heard any gospel before they died: they will not be saved. God teaches each and every one of His people the gospel and converts them.

Wow... so you are saying that god actually creates some people and then chooses not to show them the gospel and they go to hell because of it?

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capliberty
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605436 - 02/24/07 11:11 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

The stories came shaky from the gate, thats why I don't blindly believe, cause their is no real way of knowing exactly what went down other than speculating on it. Thats why there is about 100 different versions based off the same story/

I'm sure you account of the accurate story has something to do with what your indoctrinated with (cultural pride), and have nothing to back your claims, tell me what exactly is the truest gospels and how do you know for sure.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6605440 - 02/24/07 11:11 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
So you're saying that one can go around raping, killing, stealing and so on, and then if he becomes a real Christian and believes the gospel he's saved and forgiven... and that someone who lives his life in peace and radiates love everywhere he goes... but does not believe in the gospel... goes to hell.
Right?

You are correct. Even though the man who "radiates love everywhere" may seem really good by the standards of men, by God's standards he falls way short.

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Sinbad
Living TheMoment

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605451 - 02/24/07 11:15 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

SoY said:
According to you, fivepointer, the condition is whether he likes you enough or not. Your arguments are illogical, irrational, and downright stupid.

What reason would God have to like a sinner? There is no reason. But despite this He gives some what they do not deserve, mercy. No one is owed mercy, and if it is not given no injustice is committed.

The real insult to the "religious man" is that he is told he can do nothing pleasing to God outside of Christ. Self-righeous religionists had Jesus crucified, and this same group is still opposing Christ and His gospel of unconditional grace.

If he has no unconditional love for all his children, no matter how they are suffering for thier own mistakes, then he has no compassion, and is not worthy of worship by anyone. If grace were really unconditional, then why must we believe in order to receive it?

A truly compassionate God who knew the the variations and propensities of all beings, would not set himself for or against anyone with likes or dislikes. It would be totally nonsensical and against his compassionate and unlimited nature to create beings and then judge and be angry with them because they do not believe or conform to some dogmatic way of seeing. It doesn't make sense and is contrary to divine and conventional wisdom alike.

God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children. Those under wrath are not His children.

As far as the role of faith in salvation. Since every part of salvation is freely given, this includes the act of believing. The belief is not a requirement, it is a gift. People are born condemned, the act of unbelief does not condemn them per se, it exposes that fact that they are already condemned since their unregenerated heart resists the gospel truths.

Christ met every demand of the law on behalf of His people, He is the sole cause of justification. Men's belief or any other work, can not enter into a cause of justification. Justification by faith only means that faith observes and makes known to the mind the justification, it does not cause the justification to happen.

Everyone is a child of God since we were all created in his image, therefore we are all deserving of his unconditional love and compassion. This is what it says in the gospel. Jesus died for all our sins, and had love and compassion without limited, for each and every one of us. If God's love is reserved for those who have come into contact with and accepted the gospel, then it is a very limited and conditional love. Saying that the fact that people do not believe is proof of there condemnation is very faulty logic. There are many who have read the gospel, and do not believe because they found it illogical and unsuitable to there spiritual development.

I refuse to believe that such people who are developing spiritual qualities, such as love, compassion, forgiveness, and all other virtues on there chosen paths could be sent to eternal hell by a petty God. Not only would this be unjust, but it would be against an all compassionate Gods nature to commit such atrocities and cause such needless suffering, to all those who aren't fundamentalist Christians like yourself. How absurd! :lol:

--------------------

Edited by Sinbad (02/24/07 11:25 AM)

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elbisivni

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605480 - 02/24/07 11:25 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Debunking Every Argument of Christian Fundamentalists and Evangelists By Winston Wu

Table of Contents

Introduction
Defining the terms and type of Christianity described
Christian Fundamentalist theology and beliefs

The Christian view of world history
Christian Fundamentalist doctrines and precepts

Understanding the mentality and world view of the Christian Fundamentalist

Two powerful forces controlling their mind
Reason becoming a servant to belief
Ego gratification and self-esteem fulfillment
The benefits of extreme belief systems
The world as a battleground for souls
Why deconversion is slow and difficult psychologically and emotionally
Knowledge as protection from fear

Help and support for recovering Fundamentalists

Debunking the main arguments
Argument # 1: The Bible is the infallible word of God.

Three verses that say the Bible ISN’T God’s word!

Argument # 2: The Bible is inerrant and contains no contradictions. Its 66 books are harmonious and its 40+ writers agree on what they wrote.

Use of foreshadowing
Literary dialogue
Contradictions and discrepancies
The “read the Bible in its context” counterargument

Argument # 3: The fulfilled prophecies argument.

Imaginary messianic prophecies
Nonexistent prophecies
Failed, expired, and unfulfilled prophecies

Argument # 4: The Bible is a reliable historical document because it agrees with recorded history and archaeological evidence.
Argument # 5: The Bible is the word of God because it agrees with science and contains scientific facts.

False scientific facts in the Bible
Insects do NOT have four feet
Rabbits do not chew their cud
Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt nor dust
The bat is not a bird
Snails do not melt
The Earth is NOT flat!
The Earth is not motionless
The moon is not a light
Our sun is not the same age as the rest of the stars
Stars are not little balls of light close to the Earth!
Wind is not held in storehouses

Argument # 6: The historicity of Jesus argument.
Argument # 7: The Resurrection of Jesus Christ argument.

The arguments for the historicity of the Resurrection
The empty tomb argument
The “Apostles would not knowingly die for a lie” argument

Argument # 8: The Trilemma Argument - Lord, Liar, or Lunatic?
Argument # 9: The Pascal’s Wager argument.
Argument # 10: The evidence from testimonials/changed lives argument.

Related argument: All non-Christians are empty and unhappy, no matter what they have in the world

Argument # 11: The miracles / answered prayers argument.

Analysis of the Atheist explanation for miracles
Analysis of the Atheist explanation for answered prayers
My own theory on how and why prayer works

Argument # 12: Christianity is not a religion, but a personal relationship with God.
Argument # 13: God is good, holy, just, righteous, and fair. We are all sinners and deserve to go to hell.
Argument # 14: All other religions are the work of Satan
Argument # 15: The “taking the Lord’s name in vain” = power argument

Biblical Atrocities committed by God and his followers:
The no-win indefensible issue for Christians

Would God kill or order the killing of innocent children?
Would God order people to dash infants against rocks and floors?
Would God make parents eat the flesh of their children?
Would God order pregnant women to be ripped open?
Would God kill 70,000 people to punish one man?
Would God order his followers to kill each other?
Would God approve of a vow to kill one’s own daughter?
Would God make people eat feces?!
Why would God need the sight of severed heads to calm his anger?
Would God order the mass execution of unarmed captives?
Would a loving Jesus declare that he would kill innocent children?
Why would an all loving God discriminate against the handicapped?
Examples of how to ask Christians the no-win questions
Quiz: The Death Toll List - God vs. Satan
Biblical Atrocities Links
Atrocities committed by Christians throughout history

Discrepancies and facts that the church never told you about

Disunity among believers filled with the Holy Spirit
Evolution of the Salvation doctrine in the four Gospels
Why Jesus could not be the messiah of the Old Testament
The objective historical consensus view of Jesus
Evolution of heaven and hell in the Bible from Zoroastrianism – Good news for the fearful
The Creationist arguments against Evolution

Philosophical problems with Salvation and Damnation
Silly tidbit questions
Jesus was not a Christian and Buddha was not a Buddhist
My Theory - Religions are essentially ways of channeling energy
Conclusion

Appendix A: My Summary Response to Two Christian Missionaries
Appendix B: Mystic FaithRada Comments on My Summary Response

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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
#6605541 - 02/24/07 11:44 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children.

So you are saying that there is another, equally if not more powerful god that created everyone else? Do you even read what you type? You are implying that there is another creator. If a different god created us then shouldn't we worship that one anyway? Would he not be upset if we worshiped your god instead? :smirk:

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j3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6605551 - 02/24/07 11:49 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

*points and laughs at fivepointer*

*repents*

You religious types never fail to amuse me :laugh:

If I went back in time and replaced the bible with lord of the rings you'd be trying to save us from the evils of Sauron.

PS:

--------------------

"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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elbisivni

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6605563 - 02/24/07 11:53 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Not 100% relevant but nonetheless related:

From God Is Dangerous

Quote:

A Demon pretending to be God
The most powerful "spirit" is going to have most power, and convince most people that it is "good" and to be worshipped. The most-powerful spirit can inspire the writing of the Bible, claim the highest qualities of itself, present itself as an angel of light[2].

It can make us feel that it is right. But unless you resist this, and keep your standards very high, you may be committing a grave mistake to trust this feeling, spirit and concept. Reason and logic have to be stronger, our morals standards need to be high, and not to rely on any such influence or spirit, because we do know not if such beings are good natured or not[2].

Faith may be our weakest point, leading us (as it has in history) to commit evil, and leading us from truth. God could merely be a demon, a jinn, one of Scientologists aliens, a powerful spirit or who knows what, simply deceiving us. It can make it feel right -- as many people before have felt it is right to kill and do evil in the name of God.

--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Sinbad]
#6605622 - 02/24/07 12:21 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

SoY said:
According to you, fivepointer, the condition is whether he likes you enough or not. Your arguments are illogical, irrational, and downright stupid.

What reason would God have to like a sinner? There is no reason. But despite this He gives some what they do not deserve, mercy. No one is owed mercy, and if it is not given no injustice is committed.

The real insult to the "religious man" is that he is told he can do nothing pleasing to God outside of Christ. Self-righeous religionists had Jesus crucified, and this same group is still opposing Christ and His gospel of unconditional grace.

If he has no unconditional love for all his children, no matter how they are suffering for thier own mistakes, then he has no compassion, and is not worthy of worship by anyone. If grace were really unconditional, then why must we believe in order to receive it?

A truly compassionate God who knew the the variations and propensities of all beings, would not set himself for or against anyone with likes or dislikes. It would be totally nonsensical and against his compassionate and unlimited nature to create beings and then judge and be angry with them because they do not believe or conform to some dogmatic way of seeing. It doesn't make sense and is contrary to divine and conventional wisdom alike.

God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children. Those under wrath are not His children.

As far as the role of faith in salvation. Since every part of salvation is freely given, this includes the act of believing. The belief is not a requirement, it is a gift. People are born condemned, the act of unbelief does not condemn them per se, it exposes that fact that they are already condemned since their unregenerated heart resists the gospel truths.

Christ met every demand of the law on behalf of His people, He is the sole cause of justification. Men's belief or any other work, can not enter into a cause of justification. Justification by faith only means that faith observes and makes known to the mind the justification, it does not cause the justification to happen.

Everyone is a child of God since we were all created in his image, therefore we are all deserving of his unconditional love and compassion. This is what it says in the gospel. Jesus died for all our sins, and had love and compassion without limited, for each and every one of us. If God's love is reserved for those who have come into contact with and accepted the gospel, then it is a very limited and conditional love. Saying that the fact that people do not believe is proof of there condemnation is very faulty logic. There are many who have read the gospel, and do not believe because they found it illogical and unsuitable to there spiritual development.

I refuse to believe that such people who are developing spiritual qualities, such as love, compassion, forgiveness, and all other virtues on there chosen paths could be sent to eternal hell by a petty God. Not only would this be unjust, but it would be against an all compassionate Gods nature to commit such atrocities and cause such needless suffering, to all those who aren't fundamentalist Christians like yourself. How absurd!

You say we are all deserving of unconditional love. The Bible says we are all deserving of wrath.

The term "child of God" always refers to believers only.

Jesus called those who opposed Him children of the devil.

I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Those who are children are that way not because of creation, but by faith in Jesus Christ:
Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Jesus died for the elect, all those that will inherit eternal life, all those who believe.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6605626 - 02/24/07 12:23 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
God does have unconditional love for His children, however not all people are His children.

So you are saying that there is another, equally if not more powerful god that created everyone else? Do you even read what you type? You are implying that there is another creator. If a different god created us then shouldn't we worship that one anyway? Would he not be upset if we worshiped your god instead?

I said nothing of the sort. All are not "children of God" merely because of creation. That term only applies to the converted.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BuddahKillah]
#6605641 - 02/24/07 12:30 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

BuddahKillah said:
What about all the native americans who lived their entire lives without ever knowing about the gospel(because it was never introduced to them)... Lake of fire? You logic is very flawed.

Hundreds of millions of people have never heard any gospel their entire life. If someone lives and dies and never heard any gospel before they died: they will not be saved. God teaches each and every one of His people the gospel and converts them.

Wow... so you are saying that god actually creates some people and then chooses not to show them the gospel and they go to hell because of it?

God has created vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. No one is owed mercy.

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capliberty
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605755 - 02/24/07 01:07 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

You mean the Christians brand of mercy, the mercy in which can only be obtained by studying the sematincs of scripture, and coming up with a 1000 different opinions on what it supposedly stands for.

How about bringing some rational prof to your claims, instead of just piping off the same condesending propaganda, that promotes narrow minded brainwashing.

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MushmanTheManic
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
#6605906 - 02/24/07 02:00 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

j3ckyl said:
*points and laughs at fivepointer*

*repents*

You religious types never fail to amuse me

If I went back in time and replaced the bible with lord of the rings you'd be trying to save us from the evils of Sauron.

PS:

Awesome.

--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#6605956 - 02/24/07 02:19 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I said nothing of the sort. All are not "children of God" merely because of creation. That term only applies to the converted.

But according to you, those who convert aren't guaranteed mercy. You stated that only those that god decides to save are shown unconditional love, regardless of their beliefs/deeds. How can god not save all of his children? The converted are his children, yet he still does not show all of them mercy.... :confused:

It seems as though you are pulling this out of your ass as you go along. :shrug:

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Sinbad
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6605962 - 02/24/07 02:21 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

He means that Gods children are the only ones that are going to be saved, by converting to the gospel. That God intentionally created persons to be damned, and persons to be saved. Basically, that God is a super-asshole who only cares for a select few who are willing to swallow his dogmatic, nonsensical bullshit. Sound about right? :lol:

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6605995 - 02/24/07 02:34 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
So you're saying that one can go around raping, killing, stealing and so on, and then if he becomes a real Christian and believes the gospel he's saved and forgiven... and that someone who lives his life in peace and radiates love everywhere he goes... but does not believe in the gospel... goes to hell.
Right?

You are correct. Even though the man who "radiates love everywhere" may seem really good by the standards of men, by God's standards he falls way short.

So God's standards and wishes are for us to believe the gospel... if we do so, we're even free to kill because it doesn't matter... believeng in the gospel saves us.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6606003 - 02/24/07 02:37 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
I said nothing of the sort. All are not "children of God" merely because of creation. That term only applies to the converted.

But according to you, those who convert aren't guaranteed mercy. You stated that only those that god decides to save are shown unconditional love, regardless of their beliefs/deeds. How can god not save all of his children? The converted are his children, yet he still does not show all of them mercy....

It seems as though you are pulling this out of your ass as you go along.

1. The converted are absolutely guaranteed mercy.
2. I never said people are saved regardless of their beliefs. I said the gospel is revealed to His people and they believe it.
3. Try to read my postings carefully before you make false statements about what I said.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6606022 - 02/24/07 02:45 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
So you're saying that one can go around raping, killing, stealing and so on, and then if he becomes a real Christian and believes the gospel he's saved and forgiven... and that someone who lives his life in peace and radiates love everywhere he goes... but does not believe in the gospel... goes to hell.
Right?

You are correct. Even though the man who "radiates love everywhere" may seem really good by the standards of men, by God's standards he falls way short.

So God's standards and wishes are for us to believe the gospel... if we do so, we're even free to kill because it doesn't matter... believeng in the gospel saves us.

The grace of God by the work of Christ, who imputes His perfect righteousness, is what saves a sinner. The belief does not save, Christ saves. Scripture declares salvation is by free grace, it also warns against those who would use grace as a license for sin. Those born of God are given new natures and can not stay in sin.

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capliberty
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6606068 - 02/24/07 03:01 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If a priest who abused children were to become saved, and believe the real gospel in the future, then any and all sin is forgiven.

Quote:

The belief does not save, Christ saves. Scripture declares salvation is by free grace, it also warns against those who would use grace as a license for sin. Those born of God are given new natures and can not stay in sin.

_{Moderator Edit: Removed flame.}

Edited by fireworks_god (02/24/07 04:44 PM)

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: capliberty]
#6606073 - 02/24/07 03:03 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly my point :smile:

_{Moderator edit: Removed quotation of other user containing flames.}

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Edited by fireworks_god (02/24/07 04:45 PM)

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: capliberty]
#6606128 - 02/24/07 03:26 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

capliberty said:
Quote:

If a priest who abused children were to become saved, and believe the real gospel in the future, then any and all sin is forgiven.

Quote:

The belief does not save, Christ saves. Scripture declares salvation is by free grace, it also warns against those who would use grace as a license for sin. Those born of God are given new natures and can not stay in sin.

Just as contradicting as the scriptures he argues, don't waste your time with this moron.

You can disagree with me, but calling me a moron is not productive to discussion, and is personally hurtful.

I have explained the role of faith in justification earlier in this thread.

The idea that those under grace are now free to kill and commit great sins with impunity is opposed to the gospel. While it is true that any and all sin is forgiven, and all punishment for sin has been satisfied, Christians do not use grace as a license to sin. While under total liberty from the law, Christians obey not out of fear, but out of gratefulness and thanksgiving.

Roman 6
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life...

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6606300 - 02/24/07 04:38 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
You can disagree with me, but calling me a moron is not productive to discussion,

Precisely. As I've already stated in this thread, if one wishes to discuss the ideas that fivepointer has presented in his own thread, then feel free to contribute to the discussion in a manner consistent with the forum rules and guidelines. Flames and statements regarding the nature of the person presenting the ideas lies at odds with the purpose and intention of this forum.

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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mr_kite
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
#6606391 - 02/24/07 05:17 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

My friend isnt allowed into heaven because he's gay :frown:

Poor bastard.

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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: mr_kite]
#6606400 - 02/24/07 05:21 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mr_kite said:
My friend isnt allowed into heaven because he's gay Poor bastard.

Wait! He could be saved if he believes in the gospel :rolleyes:

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mr_kite
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6606412 - 02/24/07 05:23 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Nope, it doesnt matter what he believes, he's going to hell; this God doesnt like buggery (even though He seems to have created it in most species of animal)

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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: mr_kite]
#6606426 - 02/24/07 05:31 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Well you know, you might also go to hell... just like most of us here on this planet since Christianity doesn't agree with sex before getting married... hmmm I wonder... heaven whill be a pretty empty space considering that.

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SoY
I am the LizardKing

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: mr_kite]
#6606433 - 02/24/07 05:35 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Apparently he's automatically in!

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I don't see you logic. Salvation is a free gift, unconditional love. If it had a condition, then it would be a reward for a work and would cease to be unconditional.

Quote:

Salvation is 100% not contingent on personal acts or merits, at the same time it is true that every saved person will believe the gospel. The belief of the gospel is not what merited the salvation

Here it is again. Mull it over for a while, please.

Quote:

SoY said:

Quote:

Sinbad said:
If your God condemns good people to hell simply because they do not believe, then he is a seriously flawed being who is not deserving of worship by anyone. In fact, if there is an omnipotent God who forsakes any of his children to eternal suffering, whatever they have done, then he is lacking in the virtuous qualities of unconditional love and compassion, and on such grounds should be rejected as an object worthy of veneration or devotion.

If your God was omnipotent and had unconditional love such as you claim, there would be no suffering in this world at all, as such a being would not allow it to take place in the domain of his own creation. It simply makes no sense.

You can say that we have fallen, and it is our fault. But a compassionate, omnipotent God would not allow for such a fall in the first place. Why would he make a less than perfect situation for his children, that he loves so dearly?

Nicely said!

"God" gave us (some of us anyways) brains that can reason and utilize logic. He has doomed us to an eternity of suffering because he knew how each one of us would think before he created us. He made sure that we would question blind faith and instead simply observe nature to arrive at a more reasonable interpretation of reality. He has forseen all of this, for he is all-knowing, but has still condemned us to hell.

Fivepointer, you really need to think about this paradox. This logic is your true salvation. I am afraid that if this does not make sense to you, then you will never be able to realize truth. By the way, do you know what unconditional means? Come on man, this is an easy one too! JUST THINK ABOUT IT!

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6606494 - 02/24/07 06:00 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

If the belief of the gospel does not merit salvation, then it is not a prerequisite. Also, you just stated that salvation and god's infinite love are unconditional. If you truly believe what you have written, then the logical paradox is applicable.

Here it is again. Mull it over for a while, please.

It is not a logical paradox. Grace is entirely apart from human merits or conditions. However the EVIDENCE of the grace is an immediate belief of the gospel at conversion. Belief is the means by which grace is observed. The faith itself is not a precondition, the faith is an EVIDENCE of the grace that has ALREADY been given. God ordains the means by which the elect can observe their justification by faith.

The term justification by faith does not mean that faith is the condition that is satisfied thereby meriting salvation. It means that in the mind of the believer he has been justified, faith observing this fact, by the imputed righteousness of Christ, apart from any merits or works.

If faith were a precondition, that would turn grace into a reward for a work (the act of faith being the work). Since only perfection can be acceptable to an infinitely righteous God, then the act of faith must be PERFECTLY done, which is impossible.

Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way. If faith be a condition, then love is not unconditional, and it ceases to be love. The doctrine of justification is one of the most important doctrines of the faith.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6606635 - 02/24/07 06:53 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.

Do you even understand what you are saying!?

That means that you don't even need to believe to be saved. :smirk:

No way is this guy for real.....

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SoY
I am the LizardKing

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6606735 - 02/24/07 07:26 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Salvation is 100% not contingent on personal acts or merits, at the same time it is true that every saved person will believe the gospel. The belief of the gospel is not what merited the salvation

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I don't see you logic. Salvation is a free gift, unconditional love. If it had a condition, then it would be a reward for a work and would cease to be unconditional.

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.

Please explain how it is not a logical paradox. God's love is unconditional, right? You said so yourself (see above). In addition you stated that one doesn't need to believe in the gospel to receive salvation and that it is in no way dependent on one's actions (also above). This means that salvation is deserved by all and that it is impossible for an omipotent, gracious, merciful, ever-loving *god* to ever condemn anyone to hell.

Tighten the valve on your mindless spewing a tidge and think about the contradictions here mate!

You obviously cannot comprehend what you are saying because you are continuously saying completely contradictory things! You are blatantly ignoring my attempts to help you fix the flaw in your logic. I am dumbfounded by your lack of reasoning. :shake:

*edited for spelling

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Edited by SoY (02/24/07 07:30 PM)

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6606905 - 02/24/07 08:49 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.

Do you even understand what you are saying!?

That means that you don't even need to believe to be saved.
No way is this guy for real.....

Actually, what he's saying is that God made us as automatons who are programmed to either believe or not believe, and the ones who are programmed to believe will be saved. Kind of like a kid who gets a bunch of G.I. Joe action figures to play with some and strap others to firecrackers.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6606914 - 02/24/07 08:53 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

This thread makes me lol.

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Life_of_a_Cell
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6607342 - 02/24/07 11:24 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Only believers will be saved, but belief is not a requisite to being saved. Why don't you people get it?

Seriously though, I don't know if fivepointer is a puppet or what, but he certainly likes to quote scripture, so I've got a few juicy morsels for him.

First two show that God wants everyone to go to heaven.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But these next four show that God wants some to go to hell.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

So whether you believe that all are saved, or that some are meant to go to hell, your beliefs are in contradiction with the word of God.

In fact, even if you managed to hold those two irreconcilible beliefs simultaneously, your beliefs would still go against God's word, because God's word is contradictory to itself.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6607446 - 02/25/07 12:09 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.

Do you even understand what you are saying!?

That means that you don't even need to believe to be saved.
No way is this guy for real.....

I have explained it as clearly as I can, you just can't grasp an clear explanation. Every one who is saved believes the gospel, (the means by which they know they are saved), even the faith is a gift. There are no prerequists to meet for salvation, however this does not mean people are saved outside of the means that God provides for His people to enjoy the salvation He has wrought out for them.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6607464 - 02/25/07 12:19 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:

Please explain how it is not a logical paradox. God's love is unconditional, right? You said so yourself (see above). In addition you stated that one doesn't need to believe in the gospel to receive salvation and that it is in no way dependent on one's actions (also above). This means that salvation is deserved by all and that it is impossible for an omipotent, gracious, merciful, ever-loving *god* to ever condemn anyone to hell.

Tighten the valve on your mindless spewing a tidge and think about the contradictions here mate!

You obviously cannot comprehend what you are saying because you are continuously saying completely contradictory things! You are blatantly ignoring my attempts to help you fix the flaw in your logic. I am dumbfounded by your lack of reasoning.

*edited for spelling

"This means that salvation is deserved by all and that it is impossible for an omipotent, gracious, merciful, ever-loving *god* to ever condemn anyone to hell."

You have made a huge jump here. Love in unconditional FOR HIS PEOPLE, not those who are damned. God HATES the damned. You are missing the fact that God is just, righteous and holy, and sin earns wrath.

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daytripper23
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6607467 - 02/25/07 12:19 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

still going......lol

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Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Life_of_a_Cell]
#6607564 - 02/25/07 12:50 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

"First two show that God wants everyone to go to heaven."

These verses do not show God wants everyone to go to heaven. You have taken them out of context.

1 Tim 2:4-7
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

"All men" does not mean all men without exception, it means all types. "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." This is saying the gospel, in the fullness of God's plan, will go out to all peoples of the world, Jew and Gentile. It was a great change that the gospel would go out to the Gentiles.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Who are the "us-ward"?, the believers. All those who are predestinated will come to repentance. This is why He hasn't come back yet. He must save each and every one of His elect, none of them will perish. Once the last one is brought in He will return.

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capliberty
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6607706 - 02/25/07 02:16 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

OK you know how to recite scripture, and according to scripture, X and X and X will happen and so on and so forth............

But what makes you think all this scripture logic is all true, that all these messages your resiting are without a doubt speaking the truth. Can you prove any of this.

Cause according to another book there is no (Christ) named Jesus and theirs a god named Allah. And they seemed pretty convinced their story is true.

What makes you think your right over them, cause you never gave a thought to the possibility, and cause it wasn't what your indoctrinated with so it must have been false, and their going to hell, cause obviously they were screwed with false indoctrination.

Anyways I know the one track mind can't see other possible twists on reality, no regurgitation of the word is necessary for quick rebuke btw

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zero9ine
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6607729 - 02/25/07 02:43 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Dude, please study theology and do some contextual scripture study before posting this kind of stuff. There are some serious problematic issues with what your are saying, even though its the american super westernized gospel perpetuated by the uneducated and overly emotional. Honestly, if you want, i can show you how there may very well be no hell at all, and have more scriptural, cultural, and historical bearing on what i'm saying than you will. Does that mean its true? not necessarily, but neither does that mean i'm wrong. In fact, it means i'm more probable to be right.

some basic problematic things for you to look at.

did jesus and paul have differing theologies on hell? Look how jesus spoke to the jews of his day and incorporated what we call "hell" (actually 3 different greek words that had important meanings that we made into one word called Hell) into his parables and once bluntly making similar reference when Jesus talked to his disciples and i believe pharisees were present, about some people dying b/c a tower fell down, and he said, "do you think those people were the worst sinners in Jerusalem? I tell you, "no, they were not", but unless you repent, you will likewise perish."

Since you seem to know about hell and God's judgement, thing back on Jesus' words about it all. Now, look at Paul, who preached to the gentiles, what did he say about hell? When it came to salvation with him, it was hardly ever, if ever, anything more than "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved".

So, wait a minute....Jesus talks about salvation and it sounds like only a few are going to be saved and there's going to be a real shitty outcome for the ones trying to make it, but weren't as well prepared as the others, even if their shortcomings were their own fault. And then you have paul, speaking to the gentiles, and hell isn't an issue here, nor a motivator for salvation. Did the fact that Jesus was talking to the Jews have anything to do with the punishments he was throwing into his parables? Have you looked at the evolution of the doctrine of hell and how it was formed? I honestly believe that it is much harder to be an abomination in God's eyes than it is to be accepted by him. Salvation is easier than people make it out to be, God does transcend all humanity and "wills for all to be saved."

I am a christian. not the average one, i guess. but i want to know what i believe and why, and if its even worth believing. And i dont care anymore for subjective interpretation coming from fear or feelings. There's so much in the new testament within its context, but that requires and understanding of that culture, the setting, the condition of each of the local churches in the letters, mythology used, the meanings behind phrases used by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, and any other authors. This my friend is hard work, and everything you were taught and do believe, has been because of someone elses hard work in these areas of scriptures, but people today just ignore that fact and usually dont' know that it took a world of trouble to arrive at the ideas we have today about the bible and what it teaches. There are many important issues and questions like this that can change your whole outlook in the very instant of a new understanding.

also, why the hell is 3rd John even in the bible? Anyone???? Read it sometime, and tell me if anyone gets anything out of this book. nothing doctinal. It sounds like john saying, "i don't like this person, so don't listen to him!".

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zero9ine
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: capliberty]
#6607737 - 02/25/07 02:50 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

errr, christianity has way more bearings than islam. in fact, lol, christianity is resposible for their rise at all, and also the Jews. I believe the jews would have died out for sure if it wasn't for christianity. That was a time where defining came in to beliefs like never before. plus, look at the material used. and never take the bible at face value, there are many other factors that have to be constantly considered. The main one is context, and 2000yrs of ever changing cultures and bam, you have a world of misinterpretations and beliefs about Jesus and the bible. I like the fact that there are other religions who are so opposed to christianity. i really don't get along with 98% of christians i've ever met. I've always personally wanted another religion to spring up and rival christianity and preach that if people didn't believe their doctrine, they would go to hell, and it is worse than the christian's perception of hell. What would these poor evangelical bible thumpers do them? i think much of them would convert.

"Christians don't know love, they know fear."-NOFX

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capliberty
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: zero9ine]
#6607754 - 02/25/07 03:19 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

His is the most common attitude when regarding salvation and hell, I never got the feeling in the new or old testament that grace and salvation was an easy affair.

But who knows what they meant with these writings. Cause as you pointed out interpretation was lost due to language barriors, also their were other gosphels floating around that were excluded

Really this stuff is ridiculus as to the harsh judgement of sin, Noahs ark, and Adam and Eve are far out their IMO.

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capliberty
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: zero9ine]
#6607763 - 02/25/07 03:40 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zero9ine said:
errr, christianity has way more bearings than islam. in fact,

how do you know this for certain, one dogma says one thing, the other says another,

Quote:

lol, christianity is resposible for their rise at all, and also the Jews.

actually the Christian religion is based off the old Torah of Jewish scripture

Quote:

I believe the Jews would have died out for sure if it wasn't for christianity.

Jews came up with the idea of Christ originally, they didn't all accept Christianity or Jesus being Christ, I don't know exactly what barring Christianity had on the Jewish faith, or the Jewish faith on Christianity, I think both corrupted eaches intent.

Quote:

That was a time where defining came in to beliefs like never before. plus, look at the material used. and never take the bible at face value, there are many other factors that have to be constantly considered. The main one is context, and 2000yrs of ever changing cultures and bam, you have a world of misinterpretations and beliefs about Jesus and the bible.

Yeah mysticism was more popular back then, such as miracles, and magical creatures, cause heresy was the word of mouth, methods of reporting events were very limited and so the message was often scewed

Quote:

I like the fact that there are other religions who are so opposed to Christianity. i really don't get along with 98% of Christians I've ever met. I've always personally wanted another religion to spring up and rival Christianity and preach that if people didn't believe their doctrine, they would go to hell, and it is worse than the Christian's perception of hell. What would these poor evangelical bible thumpers do them? i think much of them would convert.

Its only natural that their are other view points that contend against Christian views,

Quote:

"Christians don't know love, they know fear."-NOFX

Its individual emphasis and interpretation

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j3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: capliberty]
#6607769 - 02/25/07 03:51 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

So fivepointer, you're saying that I could break into your house, rape your family repeatedly before slitting the throats of everyone you ever loved and I go to jail. In prison I find god and I truly believe, I preach the bible and I repent for my sins, lo and behold I get to sit on gods lap. Your theories are irrational and severely contradictory, the mere concept that God who emanates love apparently HATES some of the things he created. Plus here is another thought, we all come from adam and eve right? Our ancestors, in case you had forgotten, were kicked out of eden. Why would he want to forgive some of us and not all having kicked us out in the first place? I suppose dinosaur fossils are just there to "test your faith".

You spend too much time trying to force your beliefs on others, you want to convert us to "see the light" I personally don't want to be saved, especially not by you, I don't believe in god, not your god anyway. If you are so intent on converting us why not allow us the opportunity to show YOU the error of your ways, you obviously aren't considering that you might be wrong. Do me a favour and read this: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

The bible is full of holes and by now probably more corrupt than a worldwide game of chinese whispers yet you are obviously too blind to see that.

A taste of your own medicine since all you seem to be good at is quoting scripture, I can do that too, I can even point out the idiocy, and this is but a fraction of its full wealth:

Quote:

How many sons did Abraham have?

Abraham had only one son.

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham when he was tried, offered up Isaac, ... his only begotten son.

Genesis 22:2
Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, ... and offer him there for a burnt offering.

Abraham had more than one son.

Genesis 16:15
And Hagar bare Abraham a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.

Genesis 21:2-3
For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son is his old age .... And Abraham called him Isaac.

Genesis 25:1-2
Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

Galatians 4:22
Abraham had two sons; the one by a bond-woman, and the other by a free woman.

Does God want some to go to hell?

God wants everyone to go to heaven.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God wants some to go to hell.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

Did Jesus tell his disciples everything?

Jesus told his disciples everything.

John 15:15
For all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

There were some things that Jesus didn't tell them.

John 16:12
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

How long does God's anger last?

God's anger lasts for just a moment.

Psalm 30:5
For his anger endureth but a moment.

Jeremiah 3:12
I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.

Micah 7:18
He retaineth not his anger forever, because he delighteth in mercy.

God's anger lasts a long time.

Numbers 32:13
And the Lord's anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness for forty years.

Jeremiah 17:4
Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever.

Malachi 1:4
The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Matthew 25:41
Depart from me, he cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.

When did Jesus ascend into heaven?

On the day of his resurrection.

Luke 24:1-51
Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
...
And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. ...
And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus....
...
And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together....
...
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
...
And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Mark 16:9-19
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
...
After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
...
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
...
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

At least eight days after his resurrection.

John 20:26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Many days after his resurrection.

Acts 13:31
And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

Forty days after his resurrection.

Acts 1:2-3, 9
Until the day in which he was taken up ... he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
...
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Should we believe everything?

We should believe everything.

1 Corinthians 13:7
Believeth all things.

We should believe only when the evidence warrants belief.

Proverbs 14:15
The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Your own faith says I shouldn't believe what you say until you give me evidence and so far all you've done is preach hollow theories at us. PROVE TO ME THAT GOD IS REAL without the use of the bible, or smite me for being a non believer.

Sorry for the rant but how can you expects us to consider what you are saying when you won't even consider what we say, that you MIGHT be wrong.

ps: GOD HATES SHRIMP!!!

Quote:

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Deuteronomy 14:9-10 says:
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

pinch the tail, suck the head, burn in hell.

Why does god issue infinte punishment for finite crimes?

--------------------

"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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BlueCoyote
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6607771 - 02/25/07 03:54 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

In my gospel there is the concentration on love and unification, not hate and separation.
My gospel is about understanding and forgiveness, not ignorance and damnation.
My G*D is a LOVER not a HATER.
And I trust in that and have no doubt.

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

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j3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
#6607772 - 02/25/07 03:57 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

And if you wont do any of that then at least watch this and get back to us:

The Pharmacratic Inquisition

I believe there could be a god, but nothing the way the bible portrays such a god. Either we are all god or there is no god.

--------------------

"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: zero9ine]
#6607975 - 02/25/07 07:19 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

zero9in, sounds like you are saying ther are two gospels, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. There is only one gospel throughout any time period. The spiritual principles Jesus expressed to the Jews applies to others as well. Paul (who wrote as moved by the Holy Spirit) spoke about punishment and wrath throughout his epistles.

You assert that God "wills for all to be saved.". If you mean all of the elect I agree, I you mean all without exception I flatly disagree with your damnable Arminian theology.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
#6608001 - 02/25/07 07:37 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

j3ckyl said:
And if you wont do any of that then at least watch this and get back to us:

The Pharmacratic Inquisition

I believe there could be a god, but nothing the way the bible portrays such a god. Either we are all god or there is no god.

I'm not devoting 3 hours and 23 minutes to this video. I watched a few minutes and they state Christianity is based on drugs and shamanism. What nonsense.

Just for the record I am totally opposed to the War on Drugs, it is destructive to liberty and creates a totalitarian State. Passing laws to make people "moral" does nothing to changes men's hearts. The State and religion should be in complete separation from each other.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
#6608018 - 02/25/07 07:44 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

j3cykl,

Well what can I say to your post. You twist the scriptures to your own destruction. I'm not devoting all my time on refuting your attempts at discrediting scripture. You have it all figured out, end of discussion.

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j3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6608084 - 02/25/07 08:19 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

So by pointing out inconsistencies and problems with the scriptures i'm apparently twisting the scriptures to my destruction? Funny that, weak argument dude. You seemed quite happy to devote more hours trying to convert us to your faith but you won't even for a second consider that you might be wrong? You expose your own ignorance by saying this.

Quote:

I'm not devoting 3 hours and 23 minutes to this video. I watched a few minutes and they state Christianity is based on drugs and shamanism. What nonsense.

If you had actually watched the video you'd find out alot more, jesus wasn't the only crucified saint... The rest of that video wasn't about christianity being based on drugs and shamanism but you won't open that narrow crack in your world perspective 3 hours wide to take in another consideration that could be right. Christianity has roots in sun and star worship and at the end of the day thats all it is.

Don't give up just because of me, give me something real, i'm willing to listen to what you have to say or points that you have to make but you are totally unwilling to compromise or change to accomodate what i'm saying. Just another ignorant fundamentalist.

--------------------

"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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j3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
#6608093 - 02/25/07 08:24 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Are you so terrified that something other than what you believe in could be right?

--------------------

"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6608110 - 02/25/07 08:32 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Salvation is 100% not contingent on personal acts or merits, at the same time it is true that every saved person will believe the gospel. The belief of the gospel is not what merited the salvation

fivepointer said:
I don't see you logic. Salvation is a free gift, unconditional love. If it had a condition, then it would be a reward for a work and would cease to be unconditional.

fivepointer said:

Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.

fivepointer said:
There are no prerequisites to meet for salvation, however this does not mean people are saved outside of the means that God provides for His people to enjoy the salvation He has wrought out for them.

Okay read the last one again. If there are no prerequisites then salvation is given to all. You severely contradicted yourself in the same sentence. Do not tell me that I am not reading your posts clearly because I am. You are unable to realize basic flaws in your arguments and are completely lacking in logic. You dodge the questions that are inconvenient and totally ignore your own contradictions. What a pitiful attempt at an intelligent discussion.... :thumbdown:

--------------------

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
#6608118 - 02/25/07 08:37 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Christianity has roots in sun and star worship and at the end of the day thats all it is.

That's all it is? Sure, don't give any credit to Neoplatonism, Judaism, the mystical experiences of people like Paul or St. Augustine, or Jesus himself. Sure, it's all sun and star worship. :rolleyes:

Sorry to be sarcastic, but such excessive reductionism annoys me.

--------------------

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Mycomyth
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
#6608126 - 02/25/07 08:41 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

j3ckyl said:
Are you so terrified that something other than what you believe in could be right?

That's the problem I've noticed with all fundamentalists, of any religion. Some even believe so strongly (blindly?) that they would carry out the most heinous crimes against their fellow humans in the name of their god.

Messiah has pointed to the door......
Myc

--------------------
Wave after wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

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j3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
#6608132 - 02/25/07 08:45 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Understood and apologised, you sound like you'd be interested in temporal lobe epilepsy; the theory that religious experience could be a survival instinct and that there is a portion of our brain dedicated to religious experience.

--------------------

"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6608215 - 02/25/07 09:18 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Salvation is 100% not contingent on personal acts or merits, at the same time it is true that every saved person will believe the gospel. The belief of the gospel is not what merited the salvation

fivepointer said:
I don't see you logic. Salvation is a free gift, unconditional love. If it had a condition, then it would be a reward for a work and would cease to be unconditional.

fivepointer said:

Love is unconditional, meaning salvation is not hinged on man's acts in any way.

fivepointer said:
There are no prerequisites to meet for salvation, however this does not mean people are saved outside of the means that God provides for His people to enjoy the salvation He has wrought out for them.

Okay read the last one again. If there are no prerequisites then salvation is given to all. You severely contradicted yourself in the same sentence. Do not tell me that I am not reading your posts clearly because I am. You are unable to realize basic flaws in your arguments and are completely lacking in logic. You dodge the questions that are inconvenient and totally ignore your own contradictions. What a pitiful attempt at an intelligent discussion....

Your the one with logic that doesn't follow. How do you jump to say if no prerequestites then it must be given to all. I never said that, your the one who has come up with it. It is NOT given to all.

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6608235 - 02/25/07 09:25 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Must be a child of God = prerequisite

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j3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6608344 - 02/25/07 10:10 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I just don't understand how someone can march around trying to get others to turn to their faith when they are so unwilling to consider another perspective.

--------------------

"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
#6608352 - 02/25/07 10:12 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Must be a child of God = prerequisite

The term "child of God", as I use it, refers to someone who has been converted.

Like I have said numerous times NO HUMAN ACTION is a prerequisite. What is prerequisite is that God has elected someone to salvation. Election is prior to the creation, and prior to good or bad acts. Being a child of God is not a prerequisite, since becoming a child of God is a result of the election. God uses means to cause conversion, which causes someone to become a child of God. To say "Must be a child of God = prerequisite " is putting the cart before the horse and overturns the gospel truth of free grace justification.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
#6608357 - 02/25/07 10:13 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

j3ckyl said:
I just don't understand how someone can march around trying to get others to turn to their faith when they are so unwilling to consider another perspective.

I am not willing to consider another perspective. I'm a believer, not an agnostic. I present doctrines, those with ears will hear it.

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BlueCoyote
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6608404 - 02/25/07 10:36 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

How can someone believe that one's deeds while in this earthly incarnation don't matter, for his existence in heaven or hell ?
Every reasoning upon this will lead to paradoxes and meaningless (irrelevant) conclusion about our life on earth.

I think not that it is the Christian god fivefpointer refers to.

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Though lovers be lost love shall not

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6608429 - 02/25/07 10:47 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Like I have said numerous times NO HUMAN ACTION is a prerequisite.

Except conversion.

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MushmanTheManic
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6608438 - 02/25/07 10:51 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I am not willing to consider another perspective.

Then you should probably just shut the hell up.

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#6608458 - 02/25/07 10:59 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Probably?

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#6608492 - 02/25/07 11:11 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

I am not willing to consider another perspective.

Then you should probably just shut the hell up.

I've pondered your suggestion, answer: no

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6608508 - 02/25/07 11:16 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

What exactly do you hope to accomplish here? If people are predestined to be God's elect, then nothing you do here will have any impact on who is saved. Whoever is meant to be saved will be saved regardless of the trouble you stir up here.

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Icelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
#6608541 - 02/25/07 11:30 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

The idea of the special elect bears an unholy resemblance to Hitler and the Nazi regime. The chosen (Aryan race) were the only ones fit to inherit the earth. The rest could go to hell.(Hitler himself may have well found his justification of persecution of the Jews in the Bible and the story of Judas' supposed betrayal of Christ) This all seems fairly innocent here as far as the fundamentalists go until they gain some real power. Then the next step is to do gods work and send the unbelievers to hell themselves. This delusional thinking has happened too often in history. IMO it shows a true lack of personal/spiritual evolution to be thinking in this fasion. The Good News is we can ignore his way of belief if we so choose. Lets just hope he never really gets his hands on some power and just stays in the realm of posting at the Shroomery. :mushroom2:

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#6608574 - 02/25/07 11:39 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The idea of the special elect bears an unholy resemblance to Hitler and the Nazi regime. The chosen (Aryan race) were the only ones fit to inherit the earth. The rest could go to hell.(Hitler himself may have well found his justification of persecution of the Jews in the Bible and the story of Judas' supposed betrayal of Christ) This all seems fairly innocent here as far as the fundamentalists go until they gain some real power. Then the next step is to do gods work and send the unbelievers to hell themselves. This delusional thinking has happened too often in history. IMO it shows a true lack of personal/spiritual evolution to be thinking in this fasion. The Good News is we can ignore his way of belief if we so choose. Lets just hope he never really gets his hands on some power and just stays in the realm of posting at the Shroomery.

Icelander, wow, you have really figured me out and my secret motives. I want to become supreme ruler and throw people into hell.

Comic relief at the Shroomery.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Silversoul]
#6608584 - 02/25/07 11:44 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
What exactly do you hope to accomplish here? If people are predestined to be God's elect, then nothing you do here will have any impact on who is saved. Whoever is meant to be saved will be saved regardless of the trouble you stir up here.

Using this logic no one should evangelize. God uses means to bring His elect into faith, and one of those means is evangelization. Someone reading my posts may be elect and God may use the evangelization to bring the person to conversion.

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6608591 - 02/25/07 11:47 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Using this logic no one should evangelize.

Actually, I'm using your logic(or following it to its natural conclusion), since I don't believe in this bullshit about "God's elect." And yes, please stop evangelizing. You're no good at it.

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Icelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6608592 - 02/25/07 11:47 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I figured you out long before you ever started posting here. Remember, I used to belong to your little clique. Then one day I had the wonderful realization that the Universe really is Love and we, each and every one of us (including you dear man) are an integral part of that Love. :heart:

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#6608610 - 02/25/07 11:57 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Like I have said numerous times NO HUMAN ACTION is a prerequisite.

Except conversion.

Exactly. I don't think he understands this..... :smirk:

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6609422 - 02/25/07 04:07 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I want to become supreme ruler and throw people into hell.

I'd say you've already put yourself into that role via this thread.

Seriously, Fivepointer, has logic completely abandoned you?

I don't know how you can happily live the way you do: forcing your fundamentalist point of view on others; condemning others to hell; ignoring reason. It must suck living in fear.

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Diploid
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6609518 - 02/25/07 04:30 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Later the world of psychedelics was explored with about 80 psilocybin 6g trips, salvia, dxm, ghb, nutmeg, alcohol, the usual suspects.

Everyone knows that God hates drugs.

You're going to hell. Sorry. :shrug:

--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.

Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Diploid]
#6609540 - 02/25/07 04:35 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Diploid]
#6609587 - 02/25/07 04:47 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Mr 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Lu 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

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Diploid
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6609612 - 02/25/07 04:58 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

John 8:7

...and Jesus said: He among you without sin, cast the first stone...

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flower_child
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Diploid]
#6609744 - 02/25/07 05:30 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Fivepointer, you really should stop ignoring that link (www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com) and start doing a little bit of reading.

Before you go telling the world that they're going to hell, you should go see the real hell - a place in Israel called Gehenna. This is the word that was translated incorrectly translated into hell.

The better we get at translating the original languages of the bible, the less you see the world hell at all. The most up to date and correctly translated bibles don't even use the word hell anymore, so maybe you should put down the KJV and take a look at where your beliefs come from.

And while your at it, do a search on King James. He was quite the christian.

--------------------
Anything written above this is just a sorry attempt to seem cool to strangers. It is false information.

:strokebeard:

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: flower_child]
#6609771 - 02/25/07 05:36 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I have already examined the site. I have refuted its false teachings in other threads on this board.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6609794 - 02/25/07 05:42 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

I want to become supreme ruler and throw people into hell.

I'd say you've already put yourself into that role via this thread.

Seriously, Fivepointer, has logic completely abandoned you?

I don't know how you can happily live the way you do: forcing your fundamentalist point of view on others; condemning others to hell; ignoring reason. It must suck living in fear.

I don't condemn anyone to hell. You don't like the message so you slander the messenger. I don't live in fear I have been justified by Christ's imputed righteousness.

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MushmanTheManic
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: flower_child]
#6609806 - 02/25/07 05:45 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

He is right you know. All the fire and brimstone in Gehenna is just to keep warm during cold spells.

--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6610001 - 02/25/07 06:36 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I have already examined the site. I have refuted its false teachings in other threads on this board.

You do know that the Bible was not written to be interpreted literally, right? And why is that you label all outside sources (outside of the Bible) of information as false teachings? If anything, I would say that you are the false teacher, sir.

By the way, how old are you?

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6610057 - 02/25/07 06:46 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

He's 40 or something... :rolleyes:

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Basilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6610666 - 02/25/07 08:37 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I like how you use the phrase "false teachings" to describe virtually every opinion known to man. :lol:

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elbisivni

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Basilides]
#6611039 - 02/25/07 10:17 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I think we should all just accept the idea that according to fivepointer's facts we're all going to burn in hell for all eternity as unforgivable irredeemably lost heathenistic souls. His arguments have gone from amusing to questionable to hilarious to offensive and it's quite clear that this discussion is probably going nowhere.

He won't get what he wants, which is very unfortunate for us, and we won't get what we want, which is very unfortunate for us.

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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Cracka_X
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6611200 - 02/25/07 11:31 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not going to lay any judgement or anything but how old are you?

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Click here to check out lineups for Magnoliafest and Springfest in Live Oak, FL

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6611279 - 02/25/07 11:53 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Fivepointer, care to tell us how you became a Christian? I doubt you became converted after someone approached you as judgmentally as you have approached us here on the Philosophy and Spirituality Boards.

I was raised in a non-religious house. When I was little my mother was into Spiritualism with automatic writing and seances. Then she was into the Ruth Montgomery / Edgar Cayce prophesies. My siblings got into reincarnation eastern religion. Since I was small I went along with these things. from the time I was 10 to my conversion at age 35, which was 7 years ago, I renounced all religion and became 100% agnostic Prior to conversion I considered Christians to be deluded and foolish people, as well as all other religious people. Science was my rule, nothing else.

Later the world of psychedelics was explored with about 80 psilocybin 6g trips, salvia, dxm, ghb, nutmeg, alcohol, the usual suspects. What I got out of them was the possibility that maybe there is something more than just physical existence.

People were I work said I had to "accept Jesus". Asking questions of them never got me a straight answer. So I set on my quest to understand Christianity. After several months went by I eventually "accepted", and tried to be a Christian. According to them I was now "saved". I wasn't converted until 6 months later, so for six months I was a false professor, little did I know.

So I tried to be a Christian the best I could. I still didn't understand it really. Traveled to the bookstores hoping to find a book that would explain it, no luck. Listened to TV and radio preachers, this didn't do anything for me. I now know anyone on TV or radio is 99% of the time a false teacher. I was given a Bible but still didn't "get it". I tried to follow what I read the best I could. Something strange was happening, the more I tried to be a "Christian" the more I was going in the opposite direction. The more I tried to love my neighbor, the more I realized I actually despise and hate my neighbor. Eventually over about six weeks this got progressively worse. I kept thinking how could I be a "Christian" and have such wicked thoughts that just seemed to magnify. I become a totally lost ball of ruin. I was a lost wretch, and if I were to be sent to hell it would be what I deserved. At the time I didn't know what was happening to me. This was Holy Spirit conviction, I was being showed who I was, and who Christ was and what His righteousness is. From that point on I knew I was saved. It was like a weight was taken off me. From that point on I "got it", and when I read the Bible I understood what it was saying, like it was a whole new book.

He's 42.

I was rather surprised.

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j3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6611607 - 02/26/07 04:35 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

fivepointer, you are the weakest link. Or the missing one, I can't decide. It would certainly appear you have outstayed your welcome in a public place, LOL!!! Enjoy Hell.

--------------------

"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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Icelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
#6612332 - 02/26/07 11:16 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Well we're dipping back towards personalisms again. The fact is I don't believe this poster knows what he's talking about. I have no fear around his dire predictions. Using the brain I have been given I have, through personal experience and intuition and logic, have come up with a personal belief system which I am willing to stand behind and take any consequences that living it out may bring. The original poster will go away for good once he no longer gets responses to his posts. I know this is hard to do fellow posters but it's really the way if you want an end to this kind of thing. :mushroom2:

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#6612426 - 02/26/07 11:51 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I am not looking for an end, but rather trying to help him understand the flaws in his logic so that he may be liberated from his horrible, fear-based lifestyle. I am trying to save his *soul* by converting him to a realistic, rational world view. I am trying to help him break free of this rut so he can progress with his spiritual evolution and not live in fear and confusion for the rest of his life. I think that deep down he probably feels that something isn't right, yet it is his fear of hell that makes him *believe*. I am somewhat frustrated though because he is completely ignoring certain logical paradoxes that would help him see that *hell* simply cannot exist.

Fivepointer, you said many times that god's love is unconditional. You also agree that god is omnipotent, all-knowing, and all-powerful. These qualities alone make it impossible for him to let hell exist. If hell exists then you are suggesting that god does not have the ability to triumph over *evil*. UNCONDITIONAL love means that god will do everything in his power to ensure that everyone is converted and with him in heaven. You say that his unconditional love is only given to his *children*. That right there means that it is CONDITIONAL. How can unconditional love be conditional? A logical paradox. How can an all-powerful god not be powerful enough to save everyone from hell? A logical paradox. How can an infinitely powerful, benevolent being allow such a place as hell to exist? A logical paradox. Please ponder these ideas. I am only trying to help you. :heart:

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6612650 - 02/26/07 12:54 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
I am not looking for an end, but rather trying to help him understand the flaws in his logic so that he may be liberated from his horrible, fear-based lifestyle. I am trying to save his *soul* by converting him to a realistic, rational world view. I am trying to help him break free of this rut so he can progress with his spiritual evolution and not live in fear and confusion for the rest of his life. I think that deep down he probably feels that something isn't right, yet it is his fear of hell that makes him *believe*. I am somewhat frustrated though because he is completely ignoring certain logical paradoxes that would help him see that *hell* simply cannot exist.

Fivepointer, you said many times that god's love is unconditional. You also agree that god is omnipotent, all-knowing, and all-powerful. These qualities alone make it impossible for him to let hell exist. If hell exists then you are suggesting that god does not have the ability to triumph over *evil*. UNCONDITIONAL love means that god will do everything in his power to ensure that everyone is converted and with him in heaven. You say that his unconditional love is only given to his *children*. That right there means that it is CONDITIONAL. How can unconditional love be conditional? A logical paradox. How can an all-powerful god not be powerful enough to save everyone from hell? A logical paradox. How can an infinitely powerful, benevolent being allow such a place as hell to exist? A logical paradox. Please ponder these ideas. I am only trying to help you.

Another paradox: God created all things. Hell and all the vicissitudes of mankind are a part of creation and existence as we know it. Ergo, God created hell and is the terminal cause of all suffering. (And I am strictly referring to Fivepointer's "God.")

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leery11
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6612652 - 02/26/07 12:55 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Why is it that when talking about judgement day it is said that one reaps damnation by not feeding the least, and one attains salvation by feeding the least.

That these least ARE Christ.

It does not say "You did not believe in this doctrine" in fact the people spared said, when, when did we ever feed YOU? And they were told "when you fed the least of you, you fed me."

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: leery11]
#6612670 - 02/26/07 01:02 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Another paradox: God created all things. Hell and all the vicissitudes of mankind are a part of creation and existence as we know it. Ergo, God created hell and is the terminal cause of all suffering. (And I am strictly referring to Fivepointer's "God.")

Nice. And there are so many more......

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LoveShroomDearly
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6612720 - 02/26/07 01:17 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

My dog ate my bible...

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What I do not know now, I will know when the time is right...

This very moment is a shining expansion of the breathing universe,

This exploding sensation of complete tranquility,

The one, the all, the sweet bliss of tasting God.

---LoveShroomDearly a.k.a. LSD

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BlueCoyote
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: LoveShroomDearly]
#6613130 - 02/26/07 02:44 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

To whomever this still interests:
Free will is our most blessing and our most curse :grin:

Forgiveness is given in the exact moment, one doesn't 'sin' anymore.
This all relates to our responsible life on earth and not to some preselect virtual BS. This preselection has no impact on our current live. If so, after repenting, everyone will enter the state of a preselected.
In further words, one could say, the same heaven or hell one experiences on earth will continue in an christian assumed afterlife. Preselected or not.
:heart:

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6613439 - 02/26/07 04:13 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

The doctrine of unconditional election is not something I just came up with. It is clearly taught in scripture. I thought you might be interested in the historic Christian confessions regarding this doctrine. Please note that I hold the doctrine not because it is in a confession, but because it is in the scripture.

Gospel Standard Articles of Faith - 1888
III We believe in the everlasting and unchangeable love of God (Jer. 31:3); and that before the foundation of the world the Father did elect a certain number of the human race unto everlasting salvation, whom He did predestinate unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will (Gal. 4:5, Eph. 1:3-14, 1 Thess. 5:9, 2 Thess. 2:13, 2 Tim. 1:9, 1 John 3:1, 1 Pet. 1:2, 1 Pet. 2:9); and we believe that in fulfilling this gracious design, He did make a covenant of grace and peace with the Son and with the Holy Ghost on behalf of those persons thus chosen (2 Sam. 23:5, John 1:17), and that in this covenant the Son was appointed a Saviour, and all spiritual blessings provided for the elect, and also that their persons, with all the grace and glory designed for them, were put into the hands of the Son as their Covenant Head, and made His care and charge. (Ps. 111:8-9, Is. 42:6, Is. 54:10, Is. 55:4, Jer. 31:3, John 6:37, John 17:2, Acts 4:12, Rom. 8:29-30, Eph. 1:3, Eph. 2:13, Heb. 2:13, Heb. 6:17-18, Heb. 8:8-9.)

Midland Confession of Faith - 1655
5th. That God elected and chose, in His Eternal counsel, some persons to life and salvation, before the foundation of the world, whom accordingly He doth and will effectually call, and whom He doth so call, He will certainly keep by His power, through faith to salvation. Acts xiii.48; Ephesians i.2-4; II Thessalonians ii.13; I Peter i.2, etc.

Westminster Confession of Faith - 1646
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7]

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8]

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]

London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

The Belgic Confession - 1561
Article 16: The Doctrine of Election

We believe that-- all Adam's descendants having thus fallen into perdition and ruin by the sin of the first man-- God showed himself to be as he is: merciful and just.

He is merciful in withdrawing and saving from this perdition those whom he, in his eternal and unchangeable counsel, has elected and chosen in Jesus Christ our Lord by his pure goodness, without any consideration of their works.

He is just in leaving the others in their ruin and fall into which they plunged themselves.

The Canons of Dordt - 1618
Article 7: Election

Election [or choosing] is God's unchangeable purpose by which he did the following:

Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin. Those chosen were neither better nor more deserving than the others, but lay with them in the common misery. He did this in Christ, whom he also appointed from eternity to be the mediator, the head of all those chosen, and the foundation of their salvation. And so he decided to give the chosen ones to Christ to be saved, and to call and draw them effectively into Christ's fellowship through his Word and Spirit. In other words, he decided to grant them true faith in Christ, to justify them, to sanctify them, and finally, after powerfully preserving them in the fellowship of his Son, to glorify them.

God did all this in order to demonstrate his mercy, to the praise of the riches of his glorious grace.

As Scripture says, God chose us in Christ, before the foundation of the world, so that we should be holy and blameless before him with love; he predestined us whom he adopted as his children through Jesus Christ, in himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, by which he freely made us pleasing to himself in his beloved (Eph. 1:4-6). And elsewhere, Those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified, he also glorified (Rom. 8:30).

Article 8: A Single Decision of Election

This election is not of many kinds; it is one and the same election for all who were to be saved in the Old and the New Testament. For Scripture declares that there is a single good pleasure, purpose, and plan of God's will, by which he chose us from eternity both to grace and to glory, both to salvation and to the way of salvation, which he prepared in advance for us to walk in.

Article 9: Election Not Based on Foreseen Faith

This same election took place, not on the basis of foreseen faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, or of any other good quality and disposition, as though it were based on a prerequisite cause or condition in the person to be chosen, but rather for the purpose of faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, and so on. Accordingly, election is the source of each of the benefits of salvation. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4).

Article 10: Election Based on God's Good Pleasure

But the cause of this undeserved election is exclusively the good pleasure of God. This does not involve his choosing certain human qualities or actions from among all those possible as a condition of salvation, but rather involves his adopting certain particular persons from among the common mass of sinners as his own possession. As Scripture says, When the children were not yet born, and had done nothing either good or bad..., she (Rebecca) was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). Also, All who were appointed for eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).

Article 11: Election Unchangeable

Just as God himself is most wise, unchangeable, all-knowing, and almighty, so the election made by him can neither be suspended nor altered, revoked, or annulled; neither can his chosen ones be cast off, nor their number reduced.

Westminster Larger Catechism
Question 13: What has God especially decreed concerning angels and men?

Answer: God, by an eternal and immutable decree, out of his mere love, for the praise of his glorious grace, to be manifested in due time, has elected some angels to glory; and in Christ has chosen some men to eternal life, and the means thereof: and also, according to his sovereign power, and the unsearchable counsel of his own will (whereby he extends or withholds favor as he pleases), has passed by and foreordained the rest to dishonor and wrath, to be for their sin inflicted, to the praise of the glory of his justice.

The Savoy Declaration - 1658
3# By the decree of God for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.

4# These angels and men thus predestinated, and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

5# Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions or causes moving him thereunto, and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

6# As God bath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he by the eternal and most free purpose of his will fore-ordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified and saved, but the elect only.

7# The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6613482 - 02/26/07 04:32 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Please note that I hold the doctrine not because it is in a confession, but because it is in the scripture

That is where you err.

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BlueCoyote
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6613534 - 02/26/07 04:44 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

In time, we can speak about the citations of the bible-verses, but I wouldn't say to trust the bendings of Westminster (?), Dordt (?), some belgique confession, or London Baptist confession.
For me they sound like constructs to justify some evil deeds.

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Though lovers be lost love shall not

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6613540 - 02/26/07 04:47 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

If you trust those confessions, then why not those of the Catholics? There is no way to know which are the heretical/blashphemeous and which are the true denominations. :shrug:

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6613557 - 02/26/07 04:51 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Alright, so let me get this straight, Fivepointer.

You say that the Bible is the true spoken Word of God, and you believe this because the Bible says it is.

Well guess what, the Koran says it is the Word of God (Allah). Looks like you need to be worshiping Allah and Muhammad as well.

Seems slightly circular, no?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6613563 - 02/26/07 04:54 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Watch him just ignore that one.....

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6613701 - 02/26/07 05:39 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
If you trust those confessions, then why not those of the Catholics? There is no way to know which are the heretical/blashphemeous and which are the true denominations.

The confessions of the Catholics are contrary to scripture, that is how I know. BTW, I don't agree with all parts of the confessions posted. The teaching on election that I posted I agree with completely.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6613707 - 02/26/07 05:42 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Alright, so let me get this straight, Fivepointer.

You say that the Bible is the true spoken Word of God, and you believe this because the Bible says it is.

Well guess what, the Koran says it is the Word of God (Allah). Looks like you need to be worshiping Allah and Muhammad as well.

Seems slightly circular, no?

The faith is a mystery that needs to be revealed. Anyone can claim anything and say "God told me this or that". All I can say is I know it is true because I have witness in myself that it is. And I know you woun't understand that.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6613750 - 02/26/07 05:54 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

All I can say is I know it is true because I have witness in myself that it is. And I know you woun't understand that.

Care to explain?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6613764 - 02/26/07 05:58 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
The confessions of the Catholics are contrary to scripture

How do you really know that the scripture was accurately preserved after the council of Nicaea? How do you know that Jesus really said what he is quoted as saying? How do you know that the scripture you have is the true one?

You will say that the scripture you have is the one that god intended, therefore he made sure that you got it. What if the true *god* is Allah and he is making sure that his scripture is popularized by having Jihad? What if god is using us here on this message board to convert you to the truth? You do not know what the original scriptures are or what god intends. How could you?

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6613774 - 02/26/07 06:01 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

How do you know that the scripture wasn't just a entertainment piece of the time? How do you know that it wasn't just a novel or story?

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6613794 - 02/26/07 06:05 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

From reading Fivepointer's replies, I can infer that he has no validity check for his beliefs. Everything he believes is based upon circular reasoning. Anything contradictory or critical of his literal interpretation of the Bible is a false teaching.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Fivepointer.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6613799 - 02/26/07 06:05 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

How do you know that you are elect? As you stated before, one who converts and repents is not guaranteed salvation. Instead, it depends on whether or not god elected you before he created earth. Yes you converted and repented, but that does not mean you are elect.

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Edited by SoY (02/26/07 06:11 PM)

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6613814 - 02/26/07 06:09 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

To claim that you are elect is to claim that you can read the mind of god. How can a mere human being read the mind of god? I thought the mind of god was so powerful and complex that humans could not even contemplate it?

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6613833 - 02/26/07 06:14 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Realistically, you simply entertain the idea that you are elect. There is no way of truly knowing until your death. It is the same with scripture. You entertain the possibility that you possess the word of god, yet there is no way of knowing which religion worships the true creator.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6613843 - 02/26/07 06:16 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Say you witness a miracle. There is no way of knowing if the Christian god performed it or if Zeus came down from Olympus and performed it.

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Edited by SoY (02/26/07 08:49 PM)

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6613961 - 02/26/07 06:43 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Fivepointer, what is the logic that you use to discredit other religions?

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elbisivni

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6615157 - 02/26/07 11:14 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

POST WHORE POST WHORE!!

You do pose good questions and thoughts, but it probably all could have been consolidated into one post.

I look forward to his 'answers'

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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6615159 - 02/26/07 11:14 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

The only thing common too all religions is their belief that they alone are right.

:smirk:

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Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]

Edited by Hanky (02/27/07 03:32 AM)

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lobotomix
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Hanky]
#6615343 - 02/27/07 12:13 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

my excuse shall be:
i'm sorry father. i thought i would get away with it :blush:

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j3ckyl
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: lobotomix]
#6615675 - 02/27/07 04:25 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Fivepointer is only good at ignoring questions and points inconvenient to him. "Why can't I own a Canadian?" springs to mind, I sent it to him and little to my surprise received no answer. I'll post it again, it's worth a read especially after his other "does god hate fags?" thread. I feel it is relevant here too.

Quote:

Why Can't I Own a Canadian?
October 2002

Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted fan,
Jim

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"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
#6615690 - 02/27/07 04:39 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

j3ckyl said:
Fivepointer is only good at ignoring questions and points inconvenient to him.

One more personalism in this thread and it is going to be locked, but any attempt at suicide bombing this thread in order to get it locked will be handled appropriately as well.

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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
#6615710 - 02/27/07 04:48 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Apologies, that was badly worded. I assure I didn't intend it to be a personal attack. Once more, sorry.

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"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: j3ckyl]
#6615961 - 02/27/07 07:28 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I believe what he is saying is that regardless of assertions of men, he read the Bible and something true resonated with him, so that is why he believes in it and proclaims it the way he does.

?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: leery11]
#6616294 - 02/27/07 10:05 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Fivepointer, what is the logic that you use to discredit other religions?

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6616666 - 02/27/07 12:00 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Two peas in a pod.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#6616786 - 02/27/07 12:32 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I had hoped that the sarcasm was obvious..... :shrug:

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6617128 - 02/27/07 02:25 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I saw the sarcasm but didn't quite buy it.;)

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#6617241 - 02/27/07 03:03 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6617354 - 02/27/07 03:36 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

SoY has written numerous questions.

How do you really know that the scripture was accurately preserved after the council of Nicaea? How do you know that Jesus really said what he is quoted as saying? How do you know that the scripture you have is the true one?

You will say that the scripture you have is the one that god intended, therefore he made sure that you got it. What if the true *god* is Allah and he is making sure that his scripture is popularized by having Jihad? What if god is using us here on this message board to convert you to the truth? You do not know what the original scriptures are or what god intends. How could you?

How do you know that the scripture wasn't just a entertainment piece of the time? How do you know that it wasn't just a novel or story?

You are trying to make a point more than asking a question here. I have already in this thread given reasons for why I believe what I believe.

How do you know that you are elect? As you stated before, one who converts and repents is not guaranteed salvation. Instead, it depends on whether or not god elected you before he created earth. Yes you converted and repented, but that does not mean you are elect.

To claim that you are elect is to claim that you can read the mind of god. How can a mere human being read the mind of god? I thought the mind of god was so powerful and complex that humans could not even contemplate it?

Realistically, you simply entertain the idea that you are elect. There is no way of truly knowing until your death. It is the same with scripture. You entertain the possibility that you possess the word of god, yet there is no way of knowing which religion worships the true creator.

Say you witness a miracle. There is no way of knowing if the Christian god performed it or if Zeus came down from Olympus and performed it.

You reach conclusions out of your own imagination which is contrary to scripture and then use your faulty conclusion to debunk a premise that is contrary to scripture.

All those who are converted, who are given the Holy Spirit (which witnesses with their spirit), whose minds have been illuminated to the truths of the gospel and believe the truths, who are made new creations, have no doubt they are elect. Full assurance is the priviledge of every believer. God makes sure His children do not worship a false God, since He teaches them who He is.

Fivepointer, what is the logic that you use to discredit other religions?

My job is not to discredit other religions, it is to proclaim the gospel.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617438 - 02/27/07 04:05 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

*Holy* circular reasoning Batman!! :eek:

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6617445 - 02/27/07 04:06 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

You are trying to make a point more than asking a question here. I have already in this thread given reasons for why I believe what I believe.

What are those reasons?

I might have been spacing out some but so far all I have heard from you is scripture quoting and interpretation....

Edited by SoY (02/27/07 04:10 PM)

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6617478 - 02/27/07 04:16 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

As you stated before, one who converts and repents is not guaranteed salvation. Instead, it depends on whether or not god elected you before he created earth. Yes you converted and repented, but that does not mean you are elect.

That sounds like a pretty bad gamble. Dedicate your life to practicing rituals written in an old book; follow each and every law; love "God" with all your heart, soul, and mind. But wait...you weren't elect; you're going to hell!

I honestly don't understand how or why anyone would subscribe to this.

Fivepointer, you say that hell is a place where unbelievers (or non-elect) go. But what if there is a hell for only religious folk. Would you be willing to chance not being an Atheist if you knew that you would burn for all eternity in the hell of the pious?

Because in all reality, the hell that I have proposed is just as real as yours (in respect to evidence and such). If you'll extrapolate your thinking back 2,000 years ago you'll realize that somewhere, someone confabulated the idea of "Hell." Well, I just did the same thing. So guess what, all religious faithfuls are going to suffer the wrath of fire and brimstone for all eternity!

(And please, do not construe this as a personal attack. I am simply illuminating the absurdity of your ideas.)

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FrenchSocialist
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617479 - 02/27/07 04:17 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I also don't see why the line of questioning and explanation has to be so one sided. According to how it looks to me, this God is in a position of greater authority and hence responsibility, not less. It seems to be like this God is making extraordinary requests, from creatures of lesser means, while making no effort on its own part to aid them in these requests despite being so much more capable.

Why then does this God not have to explain some of the inexplicable actions on its part- the withholding of evidence, the punishing of people base on their thoughts/beliefs, the failure to offer anything in terms of direct aid (why not just have a giant hand appear and slap our corrupt world leaders?).

Why would I for example have to explain myself, but not the other way around? Responsibility should weigh more heavily on the person at the top then the person at the bottom.

--------------------

"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: FrenchSocialist]
#6617546 - 02/27/07 04:41 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
I also don't see why the line of questioning and explanation has to be so one sided. According to how it looks to me, this God is in a position of greater authority and hence responsibility, not less. It seems to be like this God is making extraordinary requests, from creatures of lesser means, while making no effort on its own part to aid them in these requests despite being so much more capable.

Why then does this God not have to explain some of the inexplicable actions on its part- the withholding of evidence, the punishing of people base on their thoughts/beliefs, the failure to offer anything in terms of direct aid (why not just have a giant hand appear and slap our corrupt world leaders?).

Why would I for example have to explain myself, but not the other way around? Responsibility should weigh more heavily on the person at the top then the person at the bottom.

God is glorified both in damnation and salvation of sinners. One to the praise of His justice and righteousness, and the other to the praise of His mercy and goodness. Both are created to serve His purpose, neither are worthy of the least of His mercies. Who is man to question God in this matter? (Read Romans 9) He is omnipotent, all His actions are inherently right. Just because fallen man in his unregenerated mind can not grasp these truths does not make them less true.

Man has a hard time with what scripture says about him. It says he is spiritually dead, unable to seek of know the true God. Under dominion of Satan and bound in sin. Self-deceived, especially in matters of religion, and blind to truth. It also declares God's wrath against all forms of unrighteousness, this wrath ends in eternal damnation. It declares man is at the mercy of God, not the other way around. It also declares God is absolutely righteous, yet is merciful. Despite the fact that not one deserves anything, God sends His Son to redeem a people for Himself, despite the fact they are dead in sin with a heart of stone He puts a new heart in them, He gives them the faith, He gives them all things yet they deserve nothing. Just as Jesus was hated without a cause, the vessels of mercy are loved without a cause. What a great salvation!

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: FrenchSocialist]
#6617563 - 02/27/07 04:46 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Fivepointer, maybe you can understand why I doubt you if I change one word in your statement to me.....

You reach conclusions out of your own imagination which is contrary to observed reality and then use your faulty conclusion to debunk a premise that is contrary to scripture. (Premise = observed reality).

The weak link is that you give more credibility to a book than to facts and observed reality.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6617578 - 02/27/07 04:51 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

As you stated before, one who converts and repents is not guaranteed salvation. Instead, it depends on whether or not god elected you before he created earth. Yes you converted and repented, but that does not mean you are elect.

That sounds like a pretty bad gamble. Dedicate your life to practicing rituals written in an old book; follow each and every law; love "God" with all your heart, soul, and mind. But wait...you weren't elect; you're going to hell!

I honestly don't understand how or why anyone would subscribe to this.

Fivepointer, you say that hell is a place where unbelievers (or non-elect) go. But what if there is a hell for only religious folk. Would you be willing to chance not being an Atheist if you knew that you would burn for all eternity in the hell of the pious?

Because in all reality, the hell that I have proposed is just as real as yours (in respect to evidence and such). If you'll extrapolate your thinking back 2,000 years ago you'll realize that somewhere, someone confabulated the idea of "Hell." Well, I just did the same thing. So guess what, all religious faithfuls are going to suffer the wrath of fire and brimstone for all eternity!

(And please, do not construe this as a personal attack. I am simply illuminating the absurdity of your ideas.)

Salvation is not about practicing rituals, it is about joy and truth in the Holy Spirit. Like I stated before God elects a people, AND TEACHES THEM, and provides the means of conversion. This ALWAYS happens. Yet you have decided to construct a false truth, that the elect may or may not know if they are elect. This sounds like Romanism.

There is only one hell, not one for one type of person or another, so any speculation on a false doctrine is a waste of time. You further speculate that hell only exists because someone has thought of it. Again another vain and false notion that opposes God's Word.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617594 - 02/27/07 04:57 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Still, wouldn't you agree that "salvation" as you have defined it is a pretty bad deal?

I mean really, you could "accept" Jesus Christ into your heart and be the most "Godly" and "faithful" of all Christians, yet if God didn't elect you pre-existence then you're going straight to hell!

This isn't even borderline farcical, it's utterly ignorant.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6617625 - 02/27/07 05:08 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Still, wouldn't you agree that "salvation" as you have defined it is a pretty bad deal?

I mean really, you could "accept" Jesus Christ into your heart and be the most "Godly" and "faithful" of all Christians, yet if God didn't elect you pre-existence then you're going straight to hell!

This isn't even borderline farcical, it's utterly ignorant.

God promises all those who believe the gospel shall be saved. The question then becomes "what is the gospel?" Most so called "gospels" floating around Christendom are false. Those who believe them are lost, yet they claim to be Christian. God did not go back on His promise because they never believed the gospel in the scripture, they created a "gospel" that wasn't true. All those who believe the one and only gospel, that Christ's imputed righteousness ALONE is the sole and only ground of salvation, to the exclusion of any other ground, shall be saved.

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Basilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617627 - 02/27/07 05:08 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I got to hand it to you fivepointer, this is quite the thread and you certainly have riled the forum up a bit. I just wish you would defend literal Christianity with a bit more academic embrace instead of merely invoking vaious doctrines that your detractors already reject in the first place. Take the route of C.S. Lewis instead of Jerry Falwell.

--------------------

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617655 - 02/27/07 05:16 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

God promises all those who believe the gospel shall be saved.

Let's attempt to reconcile this with your earlier statements:

Quote:

As you stated before, one who converts and repents is not guaranteed salvation. Instead, it depends on whether or not god elected you before he created earth. Yes you converted and repented, but that does not mean you are elect.

So if one converts, repents, and believes the gospel he is "saved." But that's contingent upon God's whim (whether or not he's elect). Then you venture to say that "God promises all those who believe the gospel" will be saved.

Clearly a contradiction.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Basilides]
#6617669 - 02/27/07 05:19 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I got to hand it to you fivepointer, this is quite the thread and you certainly have riled the forum up a bit. I just wish you would defend literal Christianity with a bit more academic embrace instead of merely invoking vaious doctrines that your detractors already reject in the first place. Take the route of C.S. Lewis instead of Jerry Falwell.

Jerry Falwell is a false teacher, one of a multitude today.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6617682 - 02/27/07 05:22 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

God promises all those who believe the gospel shall be saved.

Let's attempt to reconcile this with your earlier statements:

Quote:

As you stated before, one who converts and repents is not guaranteed salvation. Instead, it depends on whether or not god elected you before he created earth. Yes you converted and repented, but that does not mean you are elect.

So if one converts, repents, and believes the gospel he is "saved." But that's contingent upon God's whim (whether or not he's elect). Then you venture to say that "God promises all those who believe the gospel" will be saved.

Clearly a contradiction.

They DO NOT BELIEVE THE GOSPEL, they believe a counterfeit. God teaches His people the true gospel. There is no contradiction, other than the contradiction you are trying to fabricate.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Basilides]
#6617686 - 02/27/07 05:23 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I got to hand it to you fivepointer, this is quite the thread and you certainly have riled the forum up a bit. I just wish you would defend literal Christianity with a bit more academic embrace instead of merely invoking vaious doctrines that your detractors already reject in the first place. Take the route of C.S. Lewis instead of Jerry Falwell.

Fivepointer, Basilides is very correct here. If you want to get your point across-- especially to such a skeptical crowd--perhaps a different approach would be more efficient.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6617697 - 02/27/07 05:24 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
I got to hand it to you fivepointer, this is quite the thread and you certainly have riled the forum up a bit. I just wish you would defend literal Christianity with a bit more academic embrace instead of merely invoking vaious doctrines that your detractors already reject in the first place. Take the route of C.S. Lewis instead of Jerry Falwell.

Fivepointer, Basilides is very correct here. If you want to get your point across-- especially to such a skeptical crowd--perhaps a different approach would be more efficient.

Sorry, I don't water down the truth, those with ears will hear. Those who resist it will be hardened, both serve God's purposes.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617701 - 02/27/07 05:25 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

God promises all those who believe the gospel shall be saved.

Let's attempt to reconcile this with your earlier statements:

Quote:

As you stated before, one who converts and repents is not guaranteed salvation. Instead, it depends on whether or not god elected you before he created earth. Yes you converted and repented, but that does not mean you are elect.

So if one converts, repents, and believes the gospel he is "saved." But that's contingent upon God's whim (whether or not he's elect). Then you venture to say that "God promises all those who believe the gospel" will be saved.

Clearly a contradiction.

They DO NOT BELIEVE THE GOSPEL, they believe a counterfeit. God teaches His people the true gospel. There is no contradiction, other than the contradiction you are trying to fabricate.

I did not fabricate a contradiction, you created it yourself.

What is "the gospel?" It seems to me that anything that is valid is only what you claim true. I'm willing to venture you might even go so far as calling C.S. Lewis a false teacher.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6617708 - 02/27/07 05:28 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry, I don't water down the truth, those with ears will hear. Those who resist it will be hardened, both serve God's purposes

I'm not suggesting that you "water down the truth." Preserve your ideas but present them in a more academic and apologetic fashion. The reason your ideas are detracted by the majority of us Shroomerites is due to your presentation and rhetoric, not your message itself. (At least, that's how I see it.)

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6617717 - 02/27/07 05:31 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

God promises all those who believe the gospel shall be saved.

Let's attempt to reconcile this with your earlier statements:

Quote:

As you stated before, one who converts and repents is not guaranteed salvation. Instead, it depends on whether or not god elected you before he created earth. Yes you converted and repented, but that does not mean you are elect.

So if one converts, repents, and believes the gospel he is "saved." But that's contingent upon God's whim (whether or not he's elect). Then you venture to say that "God promises all those who believe the gospel" will be saved.

Clearly a contradiction.

They DO NOT BELIEVE THE GOSPEL, they believe a counterfeit. God teaches His people the true gospel. There is no contradiction, other than the contradiction you are trying to fabricate.

I did not fabricate a contradiction, you created it yourself.

What is "the gospel?" It seems to me that anything that is valid is only what you claim true. I'm willing to venture you might even go so far as calling C.S. Lewis a false teacher.

C.S. Lewis a false teacher, absolutely.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617722 - 02/27/07 05:33 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Then who, in your terms, is not a "false teacher?"

Thus far it seems like the only true teacher according to you is yourself.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617725 - 02/27/07 05:34 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Something else I'm curious of, how many people have converted after having you witness to them?

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6617759 - 02/27/07 05:45 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Then who, in your terms, is not a "false teacher?"

fivepointer is the only true teacher: the only man who truly understands the gospel. All other interpretations are false. All hail fivepointer! :bow:

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Hanky
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617768 - 02/27/07 05:47 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:

Sorry, I don't water down the truth, those with ears will hear. Those who resist it will be hardened, both serve God's purposes.

I serve the purposes of the flying spaghetti monster.

--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Hanky]
#6617812 - 02/27/07 05:58 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

any speculation on a false doctrine is a waste of time

Your doctrine is only true because you *believe* it is. It is your word and the word of the men who authored the Bible against ours and science's. The only difference is, science has facts and observations to back it up. Anyone who wishes to challenge such facts has the ability to observe them, and interpret their implications. With your doctrine, there is only speculation.

any speculation on a false doctrine is a waste of time

Your doctrine provides no means to establish its credibility therefore it might as well be a false doctrine. Our doctrine has many truths that may be observed at will.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6617819 - 02/27/07 06:00 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Christ's imputed righteousness ALONE is the sole and only ground of salvation, to the exclusion of any other ground, shall be saved.

This is clearly at odds with your idea that one must be elect to be saved..... :smirk:

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Basilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617838 - 02/27/07 06:07 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
I got to hand it to you fivepointer, this is quite the thread and you certainly have riled the forum up a bit. I just wish you would defend literal Christianity with a bit more academic embrace instead of merely invoking vaious doctrines that your detractors already reject in the first place. Take the route of C.S. Lewis instead of Jerry Falwell.

Jerry Falwell is a false teacher, one of a multitude today.

LOL, ok... just which "teacher" do you admire besides Jesus then?

--------------------

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Basilides]
#6617848 - 02/27/07 06:09 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

He also said that C.S. Lewis is a false teacher. I'm beginning think that Fivepointer believes in nothing but the Denomination of Fivepointer.

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Basilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617869 - 02/27/07 06:14 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
I got to hand it to you fivepointer, this is quite the thread and you certainly have riled the forum up a bit. I just wish you would defend literal Christianity with a bit more academic embrace instead of merely invoking vaious doctrines that your detractors already reject in the first place. Take the route of C.S. Lewis instead of Jerry Falwell.

Fivepointer, Basilides is very correct here. If you want to get your point across-- especially to such a skeptical crowd--perhaps a different approach would be more efficient.

Sorry, I don't water down the truth, those with ears will hear. Those who resist it will be hardened, both serve God's purposes.

I'm not asking you to compromise your beliefs to make them more appealing - I'm asking you to explain why you feel the doctrines you believe in are infallible. There has to be some recurring theme in Christianity that makes you so sure of your faith if, as you said, you used to be skeptical of the religion entirely.

--------------------

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Basilides]
#6617878 - 02/27/07 06:15 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
I got to hand it to you fivepointer, this is quite the thread and you certainly have riled the forum up a bit. I just wish you would defend literal Christianity with a bit more academic embrace instead of merely invoking vaious doctrines that your detractors already reject in the first place. Take the route of C.S. Lewis instead of Jerry Falwell.

Jerry Falwell is a false teacher, one of a multitude today.

LOL, ok... just which "teacher" do you admire besides Jesus then?

I don't "admire" any teacher but Moreno Dal Bello has a faithful site: http://www.godsonlygospel.com/

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flower_child
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Hanky]
#6617882 - 02/27/07 06:16 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Fivepointer, do you believe that if someone were to pray to God for guidance because they didn't believe that they could trust the teachings of any human being to be the true word of God, he would answer?

--------------------
Anything written above this is just a sorry attempt to seem cool to strangers. It is false information.

:strokebeard:

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Basilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: vigilant_mind]
#6617888 - 02/27/07 06:18 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
He also said that C.S. Lewis is a false teacher. I'm beginning think that Fivepointer believes in nothing but the Denomination of Fivepointer.

Even that is difficult to believe, even for a fundamentalist Christian. Outside of self-proclaimed prophets, I've yet to hear someone with the audacity to state that only their Biblical interpretation is the correct one. There has to be at least one notable Christian whose theology fivepointer agrees with. Unless of course we have a puppet on our hands here...

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: flower_child]
#6617900 - 02/27/07 06:21 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

flower_child said:
Fivepointer, do you believe that if someone were to pray to God for guidance because they didn't believe that they could trust the teachings of any human being to be the true word of God, he would answer?

No man can teach the gospel to another. It must be revealed from above and applied to the soul. This is the work of God.

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Basilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617911 - 02/27/07 06:24 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
I got to hand it to you fivepointer, this is quite the thread and you certainly have riled the forum up a bit. I just wish you would defend literal Christianity with a bit more academic embrace instead of merely invoking vaious doctrines that your detractors already reject in the first place. Take the route of C.S. Lewis instead of Jerry Falwell.

Jerry Falwell is a false teacher, one of a multitude today.

LOL, ok... just which "teacher" do you admire besides Jesus then?

I don't "admire" any teacher but Moreno Dal Bello has a faithful site: http://www.godsonlygospel.com/

OK - now we're getting somewhere! We've just increased the population of Heaven to 2 people.

Now, besides you and Morena Dal Bello, do any other self-described Christians have the correct interpretation and understanding of the Bible?

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flower_child
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617919 - 02/27/07 06:25 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

flower_child said:
Fivepointer, do you believe that if someone were to pray to God for guidance because they didn't believe that they could trust the teachings of any human being to be the true word of God, he would answer?

No man can teach the gospel to another. It must be revealed from above and applied to the soul. This is the work of God.

That's why I asked if someone were to ask God instead of man, would God answer that person's prayers.

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Anything written above this is just a sorry attempt to seem cool to strangers. It is false information.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617925 - 02/27/07 06:25 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Fivepointer, for the sake of discussion would be please state the concise definition of "the gospel," at least as it is to you.

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Silversoul
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6617930 - 02/27/07 06:26 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
No man can teach the gospel to another. It must be revealed from above and applied to the soul. This is the work of God.

Then why are you wasting your time here?

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Basilides]
#6617945 - 02/27/07 06:29 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
He also said that C.S. Lewis is a false teacher. I'm beginning think that Fivepointer believes in nothing but the Denomination of Fivepointer.

Even that is difficult to believe, even for a fundamentalist Christian. Outside of self-proclaimed prophets, I've yet to hear someone with the audacity to state that only their Biblical interpretation is the correct one. There has to be at least one notable Christian whose theology fivepointer agrees with. Unless of course we have a puppet on our hands here...

It is not audacity to know what you believe and you don't. Everyone who claims to be a Christian makes the distinction at some point of who is inside and outside of orthodox doctrine. Why is this so suprising?

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Basilides
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6618008 - 02/27/07 06:47 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, but most tend to recognize those with similar theology and subsequently worship together or construct a sense of fraternity among those who share their interpretations.

Others go a step ahead and assume the position that God is quite Merciful and forgiving of all theological schisms within Christianity, and generally regard Christians as a whole to be Children of God for their belief in Christ's divinity, not merely an elect within an elect which you seem to assume here.

Why are Catholics unsaved? They believe in the Divinity of Jesus as their Savior - their intentions are good and are not sinister. I have seen Catholics cry of joy talking about the compassionate nature of Christ, so their intentions are clearly anything but sinister or subversive.

One of my grandmothers is staunchy anti-Catholic like yourself, however she believes they are saved on the basis that they believe in Jesus, she merely contends that they are misguided in their interpretation.

I have met many non-denominal Christians like yourself, but they tend to be more inclusive to denominal Christians on the basis of their belief in Jesus (afterall, the Bible states that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which, theologically as far as I can see, can only pertain to unbelief in Christ as Savior).

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MushmanTheManic
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Basilides]
#6618154 - 02/27/07 07:26 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

I'm surprised so many of you are still willing to argue with fivepointer even after he admitted he would not consider any other perspectives - I admire your perseverance.

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PsyPost - Psychedelic Research

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FrenchSocialist
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6618988 - 02/27/07 11:10 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
I also don't see why the line of questioning and explanation has to be so one sided. According to how it looks to me, this God is in a position of greater authority and hence responsibility, not less. It seems to be like this God is making extraordinary requests, from creatures of lesser means, while making no effort on its own part to aid them in these requests despite being so much more capable.

Why then does this God not have to explain some of the inexplicable actions on its part- the withholding of evidence, the punishing of people base on their thoughts/beliefs, the failure to offer anything in terms of direct aid (why not just have a giant hand appear and slap our corrupt world leaders?).

Why would I for example have to explain myself, but not the other way around? Responsibility should weigh more heavily on the person at the top then the person at the bottom.

God is glorified both in damnation and salvation of sinners. One to the praise of His justice and righteousness, and the other to the praise of His mercy and goodness. Both are created to serve His purpose, neither are worthy of the least of His mercies. Who is man to question God in this matter? (Read Romans 9) He is omnipotent, all His actions are inherently right. Just because fallen man in his unregenerated mind can not grasp these truths does not make them less true.

Man has a hard time with what scripture says about him. It says he is spiritually dead, unable to seek of know the true God. Under dominion of Satan and bound in sin. Self-deceived, especially in matters of religion, and blind to truth. It also declares God's wrath against all forms of unrighteousness, this wrath ends in eternal damnation. It declares man is at the mercy of God, not the other way around. It also declares God is absolutely righteous, yet is merciful. Despite the fact that not one deserves anything, God sends His Son to redeem a people for Himself, despite the fact they are dead in sin with a heart of stone He puts a new heart in them, He gives them the faith, He gives them all things yet they deserve nothing. Just as Jesus was hated without a cause, the vessels of mercy are loved without a cause. What a great salvation!

That didn't answer any of my questions. Why does god have to send people like you to fight His battles instead of answering for himself? Such a god seems awfully suspicious.

Also if this God is so righteous couldn't he simply answer questions, and present evidence of his existence instead of just threatening people who disagree with him? A god who threatens people for asking reasonable questions sounds crazy. Far from being righteous the God you are talking about seems to rely on nothing more then blind faith and raw power.

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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

Edited by FrenchSocialist (02/27/07 11:20 PM)

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BlueCoyote
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: FrenchSocialist]
#6619170 - 02/28/07 12:05 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

to no one specific,
I also think he refers more to the OT GOD of the Jews. They had somehow to justify their 'race' to be selected, so they invented the term preselection.
Now, Christ jiggles with these terms and says that this preselection doesn't count to the 'seed' of Israel anymore, but everyone now could be preselected. One would recognize it on their deed, as they were without 'sin'.
This whole preselection dilemma that stands opposite to the deeds one does on earth (because they simply won't matter, if you are preselected or not) doesn't make sense to me, as I see cause and effect were exchanged. It means, your preselection leads you to good deeds so you can't and won't sin anymore automatically and then by this fulfill your preselectedness. That also stands oppose to the 'free will' as one can choose to join or reject g*d.
I think, Jesus struggled with these Jewish terms as well and for me the paradoxes yet, are not solved and if GOD would judge me on my deeds, I would respond that this is not righteous because my deeds were preselected and he might please ban himself to hell for trying to fool me with his injustice.

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

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SymmetryGroup8
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6619227 - 02/28/07 12:23 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

God likes to play mind games with me... I suspect he may be a sadist.

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Be like water my friend!

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FrenchSocialist
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6619313 - 02/28/07 01:00 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

You live up to your title. However as I understand it, he talks about burning people forever on whether they accept something highly improbable as absolute truth or not, that's disgusting.

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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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SneezingPenis
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: FrenchSocialist]
#6619320 - 02/28/07 01:03 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Im just going to give God a high five, tell him to keep it real, to fight the power, and thanks for inventing breasts.... then go my own way.

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flower_child
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6620626 - 02/28/07 01:17 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

So fivepointer, you never answered my question about whether God would answer someone who asked him for the truth.

In other words, rather than looking to humans/churches/books etc, a person realized that he really can't trust anything that comes from a human. So he prays to God that God will personally show him the truth about what God wants him to believe in any way that the person would be able to know that it was from God and in no way could it have been from any human.

Would God answer that prayer? If not, what could possibly be his reason for not answering that prayer, if he sincerely wants to save those who seek him?

--------------------
Anything written above this is just a sorry attempt to seem cool to strangers. It is false information.

:strokebeard:

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MushroomTrip
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: flower_child]
#6620690 - 02/28/07 01:34 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Lol you guys, why do you even bother? It's obvious that fivepointer will never accept another point of view... though I can't help to wonder what kind of a shock he will have when he will dye and see that all he believed in was bull shit. I don't think he will handle it very good. :shocked:

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SneezingPenis
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6620917 - 02/28/07 02:28 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

is there life after dye?

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6621073 - 02/28/07 03:12 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Would God answer that prayer? If not, what could possibly be his reason for not answering that prayer, if he sincerely wants to save those who seek him?

According to fivepointer, god doesn't want to save those who seek him, just those who he *elected* before creation.

However, fivepointer also states (and so does the BIBLE):

Christ's imputed righteousness ALONE is the sole and only ground of salvation

So which one is it fivepointer?

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Basilides]
#6621267 - 02/28/07 04:00 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Yes, but most tend to recognize those with similar theology and subsequently worship together or construct a sense of fraternity among those who share their interpretations.

Others go a step ahead and assume the position that God is quite Merciful and forgiving of all theological schisms within Christianity, and generally regard Christians as a whole to be Children of God for their belief in Christ's divinity, not merely an elect within an elect which you seem to assume here.

Why are Catholics unsaved? They believe in the Divinity of Jesus as their Savior - their intentions are good and are not sinister. I have seen Catholics cry of joy talking about the compassionate nature of Christ, so their intentions are clearly anything but sinister or subversive.

One of my grandmothers is staunchy anti-Catholic like yourself, however she believes they are saved on the basis that they believe in Jesus, she merely contends that they are misguided in their interpretation.

I have met many non-denominal Christians like yourself, but they tend to be more inclusive to denominal Christians on the basis of their belief in Jesus (afterall, the Bible states that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which, theologically as far as I can see, can only pertain to unbelief in Christ as Savior).

A schism is a division over a non-essential doctrine. It is not schismatic to divide over an essential doctrine. Catholic teaching is synergistic justification. That man enters into the act of justification. This denies the essential gospel doctrine that Christ's righteousness ALONE, apart from any merit or acts of men, is the sole and only causitive reason for becoming justified. This is just one of many Catholic doctrines that opposes the gospel.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6621296 - 02/28/07 04:10 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
to no one specific,
I also think he refers more to the OT GOD of the Jews. They had somehow to justify their 'race' to be selected, so they invented the term preselection.
Now, Christ jiggles with these terms and says that this preselection doesn't count to the 'seed' of Israel anymore, but everyone now could be preselected. One would recognize it on their deed, as they were without 'sin'.
This whole preselection dilemma that stands opposite to the deeds one does on earth (because they simply won't matter, if you are preselected or not) doesn't make sense to me, as I see cause and effect were exchanged. It means, your preselection leads you to good deeds so you can't and won't sin anymore automatically and then by this fulfill your preselectedness. That also stands oppose to the 'free will' as one can choose to join or reject g*d.
I think, Jesus struggled with these Jewish terms as well and for me the paradoxes yet, are not solved and if GOD would judge me on my deeds, I would respond that this is not righteous because my deeds were preselected and he might please ban himself to hell for trying to fool me with his injustice.

Your confusing the cause of justification. The elect are not justified because God enables them to be good, and this goodness then justifies them. The sole cause of justification is Christ atoned for the elect's sins and this is the ONLY reason why they become justified before God. The elect are also justified in their conscience by faith, the faith observing the justification. The faith in itself has no meritorious quality, it only observes what has been freely given.

Romans chapter 9 address your objection that God is unjust in judging vessels of wrath that He has created.

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Mycomyth
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6621304 - 02/28/07 04:15 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
God promises all those who believe the gospel shall be saved. The question then becomes "what is the gospel?" Most so called "gospels" floating around Christendom are false. Those who believe them are lost, yet they claim to be Christian. God did not go back on His promise because they never believed the gospel in the scripture, they created a "gospel" that wasn't true. All those who believe the one and only gospel, that Christ's imputed righteousness ALONE is the sole and only ground of salvation, to the exclusion of any other ground, shall be saved.

But...but...a few posts back you vehemently stated, even as far as providing pages of "scripture", that there are only a given number of "elect", and that the number "cannot be added to, nor diminished".

So, which is it? Can people be redeemed to eternal life, or is the number predetermined? A simple one-or-the-other answer will suffice, please. Because there is only one true gospel, right?

Anxiuos,
Myc

--------------------
Wave after wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: FrenchSocialist]
#6621310 - 02/28/07 04:17 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

FrenchSocialist said:
You live up to your title. However as I understand it, he talks about burning people forever on whether they accept something highly improbable as absolute truth or not, that's disgusting.

The cause of being condemned is the imputation of Adam's transgression, men are already born condemned. Believing is the evidence of being delivered from the condemnation. Not believing is not the cause of condemnation. The act of non-belief certainly is calling God a liar and is a sin, but this is just one sin out of zillions of other sins.

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6621313 - 02/28/07 04:18 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
No man can teach the gospel to another. It must be revealed from above and applied to the soul. This is the work of God.

Then why are you wasting your time here?

Well, why are you wasting your time here, Fivepointer?

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Mycomyth]
#6621320 - 02/28/07 04:20 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mycomyth said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
God promises all those who believe the gospel shall be saved. The question then becomes "what is the gospel?" Most so called "gospels" floating around Christendom are false. Those who believe them are lost, yet they claim to be Christian. God did not go back on His promise because they never believed the gospel in the scripture, they created a "gospel" that wasn't true. All those who believe the one and only gospel, that Christ's imputed righteousness ALONE is the sole and only ground of salvation, to the exclusion of any other ground, shall be saved.

But...but...a few posts back you vehemently stated, even as far as providing pages of "scripture", that there are only a given number of "elect", and that the number "cannot be added to, nor diminished".

So, which is it? Can people be redeemed to eternal life, or is the number predetermined? A simple one-or-the-other answer will suffice, please. Because there is only one true gospel, right?

Anxiuos,
Myc

"that there are only a given number of "elect", and that the number "cannot be added to, nor diminished"." - this is correct

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6621330 - 02/28/07 04:23 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Did you purposefully not answer the question, fivepointer?

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6621334 - 02/28/07 04:25 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6621339 - 02/28/07 04:29 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

The sole cause of justification is Christ atoned for the elect's sins and this is the ONLY reason why they become justified before God

Doesn't the Bible say that Jesus died to save all mankind? :confused:

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fireworks_god
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6621341 - 02/28/07 04:30 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
According to you being *elect* is the sole ground of salvation, for you state that Jesus did not die for everyone's sins......

How could one know whose sins Jesus did or did not die for, as a means to provide for their salvation, if the decision as to who is saved and who is condemend is made solely by God, and is not dependant on the nature of man's actions?

This point of view on the matter is so twisted and convoluted that it is truly baffling. :wtf:

--------------------

If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump:

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Mycomyth
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6621346 - 02/28/07 04:32 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

--------------------
Wave after wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

Edited by Mycomyth (02/28/07 04:34 PM)

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fireworks_god]
#6621362 - 02/28/07 04:38 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:

SoY said:
According to you being *elect* is the sole ground of salvation, for you state that Jesus did not die for everyone's sins......

How could one know whose sins Jesus did or did not die for, as a means to provide for their salvation, if the decision as to who is saved and who is condemned is made solely by God, and is not Dependant on the nature of man's actions?

This point of view on the matter is so twisted and convoluted that it is truly baffling.

That is what I have been trying to express. If god *elected* people to be saved before he even created Earth, then Jesus' sacrifice is meaningless and unnecessary. If Jesus did not die in vain, then the idea that god has his *elect* is BUNK! If god *elected* people, then not a damn thing Jesus could do would influence their salvation! It must be one or the other.

The Bible states that god wants us all to be with him in Heaven and that Jesus died for our sins in order to save us. I am not sure where it states that god damned all of us, and sent his son to redeem a select few while making sure that the rest of us burn in Hell for eternity.

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Edited by SoY (02/28/07 07:51 PM)

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fivepointer
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: flower_child]
#6621367 - 02/28/07 04:39 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

flower_child said:
So fivepointer, you never answered my question about whether God would answer someone who asked him for the truth.

In other words, rather than looking to humans/churches/books etc, a person realized that he really can't trust anything that comes from a human. So he prays to God that God will personally show him the truth about what God wants him to believe in any way that the person would be able to know that it was from God and in no way could it have been from any human.

Would God answer that prayer? If not, what could possibly be his reason for not answering that prayer, if he sincerely wants to save those who seek him?

Who seeks God? According to scripture, no one! (Ro 3:11) Yet scripture says seek and you shall find. (Mt 7:7). It also says Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. (Lu 19:10).

Notice the verses from John 6. All that are given to Jesus will come and none shall be lost. No man can come unless it has been given to him from the Father.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.... 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. ...44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day... 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Scripture says no man seeks God, this means the true God in scripture. Man will "seek" a "god" that they create out of their own imaginations. All who seek Him in truth have been taught of the Father (Jn 6:45). So can an unregenerate man seek God? No! Only God Himself will have His children seek Him in truth.

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SoY
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6621372 - 02/28/07 04:41 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

His mind is still reeling trying to encompass the circularity of it all. Give him a minute...I have full confidence that he has enough cods to use the brain his lord gave him, and will come forth with a straight answer. After all, it can't be both ways, the gospel is infallible.

And so...a warrior waits. And he knows for what he waits.
M

I have been waiting a long while with the same hopes, but he has utterly failed to show me that he can grasp the concept of logic, or even realize his own contradictions for that matter.

--------------------

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leery11
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6621614 - 02/28/07 05:48 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

"Scripture says no man seeks God, this means the true God in scripture. Man will "seek" a "god" that they create out of their own imaginations. All who seek Him in truth have been taught of the Father (Jn 6:45). So can an unregenerate man seek God? No! Only God Himself will have His children seek Him in truth. "

why aren't we all God's children? Why did he let most of us be created by someone other than him so that we would be deceived and await his wrath and hatred upon death?

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flower_child
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6621690 - 02/28/07 06:07 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

flower_child said:
So fivepointer, you never answered my question about whether God would answer someone who asked him for the truth.

In other words, rather than looking to humans/churches/books etc, a person realized that he really can't trust anything that comes from a human. So he prays to God that God will personally show him the truth about what God wants him to believe in any way that the person would be able to know that it was from God and in no way could it have been from any human.

Would God answer that prayer? If not, what could possibly be his reason for not answering that prayer, if he sincerely wants to save those who seek him?

Who seeks God? According to scripture, no one! (Ro 3:11) Yet scripture says seek and you shall find. (Mt 7:7). It also says Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. (Lu 19:10).

Notice the verses from John 6. All that are given to Jesus will come and none shall be lost. No man can come unless it has been given to him from the Father.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.... 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. ...44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day... 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Scripture says no man seeks God, this means the true God in scripture. Man will "seek" a "god" that they create out of their own imaginations. All who seek Him in truth have been taught of the Father (Jn 6:45). So can an unregenerate man seek God? No! Only God Himself will have His children seek Him in truth.

What an unsatisfying answer.

I'd say the only God created within the mind here is your God, who is most certainly not the God of Abraham.

"Man does not seek God." Oh how many nights I lay awake pleading to God that he would show me that truth, so I know that it's him I'm following and not someone like you who thinks that their personal human beliefs are the absolute undisputed truth.

In the end, I told God that I will look for whatever truth he has to offer, but until then, I don't know what I can do. I'm not going to waste my time with something I can't be sure is the truth, so until then I'm just trying to live for the greater good and be a good person while at the same time rejecting silly doctrines like those that you preach.

If I have to stand before God when I die, my answer will be what I have just told you: I asked you for the truth and you would not give it to me. If I must burn in hell for what you denied me, then so be it.

--------------------
Anything written above this is just a sorry attempt to seem cool to strangers. It is false information.

:strokebeard:

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vigilant_mind
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: flower_child]
#6622182 - 02/28/07 08:23 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Fivepointer, how many people have converted after hearing your testimony?

Honestly, given your presentation and reasoning, how can you expect anyone to subscribe to your ideas?

Also:

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
No man can teach the gospel to another. It must be revealed from above and applied to the soul. This is the work of God.

Then why are you wasting your time here?

I believe that Silversoul is correct. Why are you wasting your time here?

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BlueCoyote
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#6622996 - 03/01/07 12:55 AM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KJG) Matthew 19:16-30:
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

I did read romans 9, but the romans are no big part of my gospel as they killed Jesus and did other shit. [And I am a German, proud to have my ancestors defeated the Romans for a while here :grin:

]
I like the more direct witnesses of Christ's word.
You seem to have a favor for the betrayers, the romans and Paulus :smile:

Ok, I understand it with Paulus, as he converted like you, but why the romans ? As you clearly damn the roman catholic christs as well ?
I hold Jesus words higher than those of the romans or the 'reasonings' of his disciples.
And in my gospel there stands nothing of humans created to be evil.

Jesus was a cool dude, and a representation of the 'christ'-consciousness. He simply said, "look, do like me and you will be saved."
All the rest is arbitrary BS, imho, which is and was constructed by deluded humans or powerhungry politicians or ego-driven false preachers and false prophets.
GOD is not that wicked as they make it/her/him seem to be.

--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not

Edited by BlueCoyote (03/01/07 02:34 AM)

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Cracka_X
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6626576 - 03/01/07 10:30 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jesus was a cool dude, and a representation of the 'christ'-consciousness. He simply said, "look, do like me and you will be saved."
All the rest is arbitrary BS, imho, which is and was constructed by deluded humans or powerhungry politicians or ego-driven false preachers and false prophets.
GOD is not that wicked as they make it/her/him seem to be.

amen

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Mycomyth
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: SoY]
#6631664 - 03/03/07 01:37 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SoY said:
I have been waiting a long while with the same hopes, but he has utterly failed to show me that he can grasp the concept of logic, or even realize his own contradictions for that matter.

Alas...
And, I wasn't even looking for anything as complex as grasping the concept of logic. For me, a simple admission that, by his own quoting of scripture, a paradox was raised that was plainly noticeable by all present.

And that was "The elect were chosen before creation", yet "souls can be redeemed through the blood of a man named Jesus".

All this aside, though, I've recently come to hold the idea that organized religion, in all it's different forms, are a necessary steping stone along the path to acension. Some need those stones, some are a bit more sure-footed. That's all.

After all the pissing and posturing along the way, in the end all will know, or rather...will remember.

Holiest of Holies to you all,
M

--------------------
Wave after wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

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FocusHawaii
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Mycomyth]
#6633437 - 03/04/07 01:51 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

The split between followers and skeptics can be traced to their hierarchical frameworks from which each party takes their raw data and their interpretations from. This is actually a really good philosophical proposition, however, not for the subsequent answers but the methods humans take to reach and satisfy their conclusions. People who believe in God believe His word is the absolute, this absolute drives their conclusions and ultimately what they believe as reality: heaven/hell, sins, commandments etc. Skeptics usually posit themselves to rely on empirical information that can be theorized, proven, and recreated under the same conditions; the next step for them is to posit the experimental findings next to metaphysical ideas and derive conclusions based on the corporeal experimentation. The reality that is measurable and experimentally sound, it follows the metaphysical realities must accord.

Now that the two frameworks have been identified, albeit a little rudimentary, we can clearly see the contrast between the two. Taking the God standpoint first, we can see that the skeptic values can be correctly, under the God framework, be dismissed because it wasn't by God and therefore wrong. We've come to the frustrating and contrasting crux of the argument, God cannot be disproved, so far, under experimental circumstances and empiricism does discard something unless it can be strictly proven. This isn't a distinction followers take, their values have been dictated by an absolute therefore it's inconsequential to determine whether human think it right or wrong.

This almost infinite debate will perpetuate itself because of the values both parties have and no gains can be made unless something drastic happens; imagine arguing over a stalemate in chess which side is right or wrong. It's more interesting to think about it in philosophical implications that provide a more astute and insightful understanding.

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JH05
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: FocusHawaii]
#8526881 - 06/15/08 12:51 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10 RSV)

All six parts: http://youtube.com/view_play_list?p=1E8959214872F2FF

Edited by JH05 (06/15/08 01:01 PM)

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Visionary Tools
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#8527135 - 06/15/08 02:05 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
God's Word declares all shall be brought before God in judgment. All who fall short of the righteous demands of the law shall be punished in the Lake of Fire.

Guilt tripping just makes your followers stupid.

I've come to my own conclusions about judgement day. I have made my peace. And I know I'll be looked on favourably, because my philosophy is private, and I wouldn't want to detract from others spirituality by imposing my views. Enlightenment has to come from within, that's the entire point, you can't do it for others.

Realise this, and save yourself. Regardless of religion, there's three common rules most people obey.

1: Don't kill
2: Don't steal
3: Don't lie

The rest is bollocks, and should be kept to oneself.

--------------------

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benitoamanito
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#8527479 - 06/15/08 04:20 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

to the dude that started this thread:

stop relying on what you read.. this place is about what you learn from your own experiences...

and jesus probably had a tapeworm

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Icelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: benitoamanito]
#8527998 - 06/15/08 07:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Playing with this thread might just stir him from his slumber. :nono:

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extraordinary
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#8528037 - 06/15/08 07:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Is this from the book of revelations?

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Icelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: extraordinary]
#8528055 - 06/15/08 07:31 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Leviticus.

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Cracka_X
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: JH05]
#8528084 - 06/15/08 07:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

are you serious? did you just bring this shit back to life?

--------------------
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extraordinary
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#8528088 - 06/15/08 07:41 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

oh, i only ask because of the "lake of fire," which the beast and all of his accomplices will inevitably be thrown into as the book of revelations states

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Icelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: extraordinary]
#8528097 - 06/15/08 07:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I enjoy a good hot soak. :thumbup:

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Visionary Tools
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#8528883 - 06/16/08 02:14 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Leviticus.

Big, bad and heavy
Any sound test me tonight
Dem ah go bury
Watch this!

--------------------

Edited by Visionary Tools (06/16/08 02:16 AM)

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ObliviousSeeker
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Visionary Tools]
#8529784 - 06/16/08 12:02 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

A very dangerous misconception that many people have is that they are good enough to get to Heaven, but not bad enough to find themselves in Hell...

"All men have fallen short of the glory of God."

Jesus was the only man to live without sin. All men have sinned. Every single one. The act of sin is what condemns a person to hell. That is the punishment because God is creating a perfect world in Heaven, and in Heaven there is no place for sin.

Jesus shed his blood and died on the cross to take the penalty for all men for their sins. By believing in your heart that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, is the son of God, and was brought to life 3 days after his crucifixion and ascended into heaven, you are forgiven for the sins that you are guilty of and will have your name in Book of Life.

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Veritas

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
#8529817 - 06/16/08 12:12 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, it is also very dangerous to believe that one will still receive Christmas presents when Santa Claus "sees you when you're sleeping, knows when you're awake, knows if you've been bad or good." All ye sinners shall rue your sinful ways when Christmas morning finds the floor beneath your tree bare of gaudily-wrapped loot. Be good for goodness' sake!! :nono:

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Icelander
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
#8530323 - 06/16/08 02:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ObliviousSeeker said:
A very dangerous misconception that many people have is that they are good enough to get to Heaven, but not bad enough to find themselves in Hell...

"All men have fallen short of the glory of God."

Jesus was the only man to live without sin. All men have sinned. Every single one. The act of sin is what condemns a person to hell. That is the punishment because God is creating a perfect world in Heaven, and in Heaven there is no place for sin.

Jesus shed his blood and died on the cross to take the penalty for all men for their sins. By believing in your heart that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, is the son of God, and was brought to life 3 days after his crucifixion and ascended into heaven, you are forgiven for the sins that you are guilty of and will have your name in Book of Life.

I sure am glad that this all is subjective bs. Because it's really stoopid and a little ugly on the side. What kind of human learns to live a life based on this stuff? How ugly and cowardly and sad IMO. It's voluntary slavery. Got to pity those poor fools. :mrt:

Edited by Icelander (06/16/08 02:16 PM)

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Visionary Tools
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Icelander]
#8531124 - 06/16/08 06:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Jesus was the only man to live without sin. All men have sinned. Every single one. The act of sin is what condemns a person to hell. That is the punishment because God is creating a perfect world in Heaven, and in Heaven there is no place for sin.

When Jesus ate food, the bacteria on it would be digested. Each time he ate, millions of lives died. Killing's a sin, right?

http://www.evilbible.com/Jesus_Lied.htm

It's impossible to live without sin. Is it immoral to kill to eat? Should predators be killed for killing?

As for heaven, what a childish notion, on par with having 72 virgins in the afterlife. Just think about it, an eternity anywhere is hell, an eternity without death would lead to insanity and a fate worse than death. The soul would stagnate and wither and rot away, and a lot of christians, I'm shocked they'd allow the wool to be pulled over their eyes.

It's not noble living on blind faith. It's not noble going through life without being inquisitive. It's not noble to spout the same scripture again and again, when it does little more than cause a nuisance. In the above statement, you've just said that everyone, including yourself, will be condemned to hell, as it's physically impossible to live without sin, directly or indirectly.

God is within all life, it's not some super being, but something far less distinct, far more subtle. So subtle it took me years and years to realise, but I'm glad I remained open minded, that I kept questioning, that I didn't accept some old tome as being the ultimate universal truth. Heaven can be made here on Earth, but first there's a lot of work we all need to do, to fight the real evil.

Don't be a death cultist. Don't think that at the end there's eternal reward. Your rewards are here and now, you're one of the few out of the countless possible people that could have been, you're the lucky ones (relativly). Celebrate life and be happy, understand universal compassion, understand the commonality that links all life.

So forgive me if I get upset and dissapointed when I see people living in ignorance, living without inquisition, living in blind faith, stumbling blindly, cheating themselves from true enlightenment for immediate gratification.

--------------------

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elbisivni

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Visionary Tools]
#8531578 - 06/16/08 08:11 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
an eternity anywhere is hell, an eternity without death would lead to insanity and a fate worse than death

Yeah, pretty much..

Quote:

Icelander said:
it's really stoopid and a little ugly on the side

Quote:

Frank Zappa said:
After all, he [God] wrote this book here, and in the book it says he made us all to be just like him! So if we're dumb, then God is dumb - and maybe even a little ugly on the side."

--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Cracka_X
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
#8531735 - 06/16/08 08:58 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ObliviousSeeker said:
A very dangerous misconception that many people have is that they are good enough to get to Heaven, but not bad enough to find themselves in Hell...

"All men have fallen short of the glory of God."

Jesus was the only man to live without sin. All men have sinned. Every single one. The act of sin is what condemns a person to hell. That is the punishment because God is creating a perfect world in Heaven, and in Heaven there is no place for sin.

Jesus shed his blood and died on the cross to take the penalty for all men for their sins. By believing in your heart that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, is the son of God, and was brought to life 3 days after his crucifixion and ascended into heaven, you are forgiven for the sins that you are guilty of and will have your name in Book of Life.

Have you ever made a career choice based on what your parents told you? BUT, once you got past all the crap they instilled about how much better your path, which they determined for you, is and realize there are other paths to take... And these other paths don't look half as bad then why not see what's up over yonder?

one way, you could strengthen your faith or you could find something that fascinates you and lead you to a whole new realm of possibilities that you could NEVER see before because of your determined path.

why not? And if god created everything, including the devil, then why couldn't the bible be the devil? of all religions, christianity seems to be the most binding and most needy of all. AND THEY'RE EXEMPT FROM TAXATION! the fuck?

--------------------
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Boots
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8531790 - 06/16/08 09:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Weed is my anti-religion. :rolleyes:

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Spiritual Seeker
Nothing Matters

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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#8535182 - 06/17/08 07:46 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

We all ride diffent donkey's up the same mountain. Once we reach the top we will wonder why the fuck we scouled at people riding diffrent colored one's

--------------------
"Nothing in the world is a gift. Whatever there is to learn has to be learned the hard way."
-Don juan

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JH05
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
#8536916 - 06/18/08 10:43 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ObliviousSeeker said:
A very dangerous misconception that many people have is that they are good enough to get to Heaven, but not bad enough to find themselves in Hell...

The word hell doesn't belong in the Bible!

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter14.html

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Visionary Tools
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Boots]
#8536975 - 06/18/08 11:02 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Boots said:
Weed is my anti-religion.

Puffing the herb made me see what the Rasta's probably would call Jah.

--------------------

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ixitwistedixi
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Visionary Tools]
#8537000 - 06/18/08 11:13 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I personally believe that religion is the oldest form of Government.

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ObliviousSeeker
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Visionary Tools]
#8537029 - 06/18/08 11:28 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Quote:

Jesus was the only man to live without sin. All men have sinned. Every single one. The act of sin is what condemns a person to hell. That is the punishment because God is creating a perfect world in Heaven, and in Heaven there is no place for sin.

When Jesus ate food, the bacteria on it would be digested. Each time he ate, millions of lives died. Killing's a sin, right?

The 10 Commandments did not exist during Jesus' time on Earth...

http://www.evilbible.com/Jesus_Lied.htm

It's impossible to live without sin. Is it immoral to kill to eat? Should predators be killed for killing?

It is impossible to live without sin. That's why Jesus died for us to pay the penalty for our sins.

As for heaven, what a childish notion, on par with having 72 virgins in the afterlife. Just think about it, an eternity anywhere is hell, an eternity without death would lead to insanity and a fate worse than death. The soul would stagnate and wither and rot away, and a lot of christians, I'm shocked they'd allow the wool to be pulled over their eyes.

It's not noble living on blind faith. It's not noble going through life without being inquisitive. It's not noble to spout the same scripture again and again, when it does little more than cause a nuisance. In the above statement, you've just said that everyone, including yourself, will be condemned to hell, as it's physically impossible to live without sin, directly or indirectly.

God is within all life, it's not some super being, but something far less distinct, far more subtle. So subtle it took me years and years to realise, but I'm glad I remained open minded, that I kept questioning, that I didn't accept some old tome as being the ultimate universal truth. Heaven can be made here on Earth, but first there's a lot of work we all need to do, to fight the real evil.

Don't be a death cultist. Don't think that at the end there's eternal reward. Your rewards are here and now, you're one of the few out of the countless possible people that could have been, you're the lucky ones (relativly). Celebrate life and be happy, understand universal compassion, understand the commonality that links all life.

So forgive me if I get upset and dissapointed when I see people living in ignorance, living without inquisition, living in blind faith, stumbling blindly, cheating themselves from true enlightenment for immediate gratification.

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ObliviousSeeker
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Registered: 08/25/06
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
#8537043 - 06/18/08 11:37 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Listen, understanding the Bible is a little tricky if you don't know what you're looking at. There are "Dispensations" and "Covenants" in the Bible. A covenant is defined as "a mutual agreement between two parties." What you need to realize is that God has different ways of dealing with people during periods of time.

Take Adam and Eve for example. God had a covenant with Adam and Eve and all Adam and Eve had to do was keep six conditions God had laid down to keep the covenant in effect with all its blessings. God told them to:
1. Multiply and replenish the earth (Gen. 1:28).

2. Subdue the earth for their use (Gen. 1:28).

3. Exercise dominion over the animal creation (Gen. 1:28).

4. Have only a vegetable diet (Gen. 1:29).

5. Dress and keep the garden they were put in (Gen. 2:15).

6. Abstain from eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen. 2:17).
This covenant remained in force until Adam broke it by eating of the forbidden tree. God kept his part but man did not keep his. A trend that will sadly continue through every dispensation.

There are many covenants in the bible, that is why you see acts of violence in the Old Testament where God commanded people to kill. It is because the Law was different then...

http://www.biblebelievers.com/Dispen1a.htm#Chapter%20I

This site breaks it down completely so you understand what is going on in the not so confusing Bible.

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JH05
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Registered: 06/12/08
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
#8537098 - 06/18/08 11:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ObliviousSeeker said:
God had a covenant with Adam and Eve and all Adam and Eve had to do was keep six conditions God had laid down to keep the covenant in effect with all its blessings. God told them to:
1. Multiply and replenish the earth (Gen. 1:28).

2. Subdue the earth for their use (Gen. 1:28).

3. Exercise dominion over the animal creation (Gen. 1:28).

4. Have only a vegetable diet (Gen. 1:29).

5. Dress and keep the garden they were put in (Gen. 2:15).

6. Abstain from eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen. 2:17).
This covenant remained in force until Adam broke it by eating of the forbidden tree. God kept his part but man did not keep his. A trend that will sadly continue through every dispensation.

http://bibletruths.com/

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God’s sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God’s solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.

The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit, that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here’s the proof:

If a thousand Christians were given the assignment to write an essay describing the world as it was after God completed it, but before man sinned, I am positive that we would get one thousand essays describing the unbelievable beauty, harmony, and perfection of all creation including man and beast. However, would such essays be based on the Scriptures? Let’s look at a little understood Scripture.

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

Wow! Did you know that Scripture is in the Bible? Have you ever meditated at length on its meaning? This one Scripture does much damage to Christian doctrine. From a strictly carnal-minded approach, this Scripture is devastating. Let’s see what these words entail from Strong’s GREEK DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:

VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].

BONDAGE: slavery, subjection, subserviency.

CORRUPTION: shrivel, wither, spoil, ruin, deprave, defile, destroy, decay, perish

GROAN: moan, calamity, be in straits, murmur, grief, grudge, anguish.

TRAVAIL: pangs, to pain together, travail as in birth.

PAIN: anguish, toil for daily subsistence, starving.

The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn’t ask anyone’s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

And most of the glory that God will receive is from the glory that He gives to all mankind.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING" (John 8:44)!

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God," and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:

"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:8).

Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.

Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

The good news is that all of our suffering is for a grand purpose and will ultimately bring huge rewards. Just two verses before, Paul tells us how God subjected the whole creation to these many evils and he gives us this comforting thought:

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [’groaning and travailing in pain together until now’ Ver 22] are not worthy to be compared with the GLORY which shall be revealed in US" (Ver. 18).

Edited by JH05 (06/18/08 12:43 PM)

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elbisivni

Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: JH05]
#8538244 - 06/18/08 06:24 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The moral of the story is that knowledge is evil and you don't want to be possessed by evil, so pull the wool over your eyes and go to sleep, m'kay?

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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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falcon
In the green

Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 5,150
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Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
#8538531 - 06/18/08 07:48 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Did you get that moral from the post you replied to, :confused:

or were you replying to someone besides the previous post by JH05?

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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
#8538563 - 06/18/08 07:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Jesus was the only man to live without sin.

And we know this, how? I am serious.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

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elbisivni

Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: falcon]
#8538788 - 06/18/08 09:03 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
Did you get that moral from the post you replied to, or were you replying to someone besides the previous post by JH05?

I was replying to JH05 but it could apply to numerous posts in this thread I'm sure.. After all, it's exactly what the story of the fall of Eden implies..

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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Visionary Tools
I <3 Thomas Jefferson

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 5,462
Last seen: 15 hours, 41 minutes

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
#8540904 - 06/19/08 12:52 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

If I live in a monastry for 50 years, can I be as metaphysically confusing as these guys? I want to keep my sanity though.

Hey, god bothers! If your god is so perfect and never would do a bad thing ever, why do you have to defend it?

--------------------

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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,736
Loc: Here

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: JH05]
#8540969 - 06/19/08 01:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

All that mumbo jumbo aside, why is God referred to as a male?

why?

Wouldn't it make a tad more sense that He be female, as females are way more complex?

Also, the tone of all that rubbish sounds like a tyrannical king, high atop his throne ordering his servants.

The bible is an old book with obvious patriarchal nuances smothered all in it. That's how they did it back then and look what happened. People apply this today and look what's happening.

by all means, it brings much ease to many, but just hearing bible verses sounds like King George bossing people around.

--------------------
Click here to check out lineups for Magnoliafest and Springfest in Live Oak, FL

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fivepointer
newbie

Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,071
Last seen: 24 days, 23 hours

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Cracka_X]
#8541429 - 06/19/08 03:54 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

All have sinned in Adam. Meaning that the original sin is imputed to all humans and they are accounted guilty for it. This is why people can be condemned before the Law was given. The fact that men sin is a reflection of the fallen nature that man has since the Fall.

Since all are born condemned the only hope is that God will be merciful to them. Now God can not forgive sin without the demands of the law being satisfied. This is why the atonement MUST take place in order for a sin to be forgiven.

All sin (that is to be forgiven) is imputed to Christ's account, as if He Himself committed those sins. Since He underwent the wrath of God justice is satisfied. He redeemed His people completely.

Good enough does not cut it, God demands perfection, this is what nobody has. Only Christ was perfect, and only in Him can God look at a sinner.

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OrgoneConclusion
Pharoah & Balanced

Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 29,385
Loc: Luxor

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#8541438 - 06/19/08 03:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

A perfect being cannot make something imperfect.

Case closed.

--------------------

This is your drain on brugs.

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falcon
In the green

Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 5,150
Last seen: 15 hours, 43 minutes

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
#8541475 - 06/19/08 04:04 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

After all, it's exactly what the story of the fall of Eden implies.

Maybe, elbisivni, but JH05 post is explicit in stating that the acquisition of the knowledge of good and evil is a necessary step in man becoming like God.

Hey fivepointer, How's God doing?

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Diploid
Cuban

Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 14,228
Loc: Rabbit Hole

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: fivepointer]
#8541532 - 06/19/08 04:14 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Only Christ was perfect

Nonsense!

Only the gods Apollo, Zeus, and Thor are perfect. They form the infallible Holly Troika, as you well know.

Blaspheming threads like this one are hell-worthy. All of you non-believers don't blame me when you end up in hell on judgment day. I know I've done my part to save you. The rest is up to you! :yesnod:

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elbisivni

Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: Diploid]
#8542382 - 06/19/08 08:11 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

IMO, polytheistic beliefs are much more sensible than those of monotheists. The existence of multiple 'competing' gods could explain many of the logical-fallacies, loop-holes, hypocrisies, etc presented in association with the idea of one singular god.

I love how monotheists laugh at the ideas of polytheists as if their ideas are so much more logical and realistic. "If people have believed it for this long, then it must be true."

Nevermind that the main focus is placed on the avoidance of punishment BEFORE the thought of achieving some kind of a reward, if you really want to call it that..

Heaven and hell both sound like punishment to me from the descriptions I've heard.

--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 67,610
Loc: underbelly

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: elbisivni]
#8542448 - 06/19/08 08:30 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Heaven and hell both sound like punishment to me from the descriptions I've heard.

amen

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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,736
Loc: Here

Re: What shall be your excuse? You have been warned of the judgment to come. [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
#8543236 - 06/20/08 12:46 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

2. Subdue the earth for their use (Gen. 1:28).

3. Exercise dominion over the animal creation (Gen. 1:28).

--------------------
Click here to check out lineups for Magnoliafest and Springfest in Live Oak, FL

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