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 Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
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 Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck?  [Re: Economist]
#5834929 - 07/08/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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On Afghanistan - And the US hasn't left yet, has it?
Actually I thought the US had left Afghanistan. Few troops left behind to protect Karzai from being torn limb from limb and some to hunt Mullah Omar and that's about it. The rest of the country has been handed over to deranged warlords to rule as they see fit.
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 Economist
in training
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5834982 - 07/08/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said:
So what are the alternatives? The US continues as it is? Do you think things will suddenly come good?
It's hard to see how they could do any worse. At least they might not face the same hatred from the Iraqi people.
This is the most profoundly backwards logic I have ever heard in my life.
"It's hard to see how they could do any worse" is not an affirmative response.
Personally I think tha the Russian Pop Group T.A.T.U. seems very personable, and what man doesn't like two attractive girls who get busy with each other while producing dance hits? Let's put THEM in charge of Iraq because "It's hard to see how they could do any worse" and besides, "at least they might not face the same hatred from the Iraqi people".
Or wait! There's an even better alternative! Let's put the board of directors of Mitsubishi corporation in charge of Iraq! They've managed to keep profits up despite rising production costs! Yay! Besides, "It's hard to see how they could do any worse, at least they might not face the same hatred from the Iraqi people".
The fact of the matter is that the statement "It's hard to see how they could do any worse," is NOT an endorsement of any sorts.
Again, Alex213, you have supported the suggestion that the UN should take over in Iraq. The same organization that ruined Haiti, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Cambodia, Angola, East Timor, etc. shoud be put in charge of Iraq. And again, I am asking for an affirmative reason why. What *benefit* would the UN have that other organizations would not?
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Alex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
#5835007 - 07/08/06 12:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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This is the most profoundly backwards logic I have ever heard in my life.
I'll take that as a compliment 
The fact of the matter is that the statement "It's hard to see how they could do any worse," is NOT an endorsement of any sorts.
True, true. But I still think the UN would have a better idea than TATU.
The same organization that ruined Haiti, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Cambodia, Angola, East Timor, etc. shoud be put in charge of Iraq.
WHOA there. Lets's not make things TOO simplistic and pat for the sake of the argument. Each of those countries has a whole load of history behind them that you can't blame on the UN.
And again, I am asking for an affirmative reason why
Try and look at it from an Iraqi viewpoint rather than an american. Put yourself in an Iraqis shoes for a moment. Lets make it even more obvious, put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi who lost his family to american gunfire. Why might you prefer a UN presence in the street rather than a US one?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5838124 - 07/09/06 09:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said:
"The same old story we got?" Were you even a fetus then? No, grasshopper, the justification for the US taking over the French position in Vietnam was to prevent the spread of communism and the mass murder of the S. Vietnamese. Both of which happened when we left. That worked out well.
You were around but it sounds like you never paid too much attention.
Soon after taking office. President Richard Nixon introduced his policy of "vietnamization". The plan was to encourage the South Vietnamese to take more responsibility for fighting the war. It was hoped that this policy would eventually enable the United States to withdraw gradually all their soldiers from Vietnam.
Does the story sound familiar?
Nixon's "vietnamization" was the surrender. We ran away. They were slaughtered. It was hoped that this policy would eventually enable the United States to withdraw gradually all their soldiers from Vietnam. Bullshit. The whole fucking country knew it was a surrender and a death sentence for many S. Vietnamese. We spend years there, lose 50,000 troops, kill hundreds of thousands of the enemy, and they still keep coming. And there was some retard who had "hope" that the ARVN could hold up?????? You may be able to find some lying jackass who said he had hope to gild this particular turd (first defeat)but nobody believed him.
Quoting your own term papers again?Quote:
Incidentally, the justification for invading Iraq wasn't "To make the Iraqi security services stronger and then leave". It was WMD.
As has been explained to you several times, there were numerous reasons given for invading Iraq, not only WMDs. Nor has anybody other than yourself offered the above as justification for invading Iraq. It probably isn't even a necessary condition for our departure if the Iraqi government decides it's time for us to go, but I doubt they'll do that.
For the impaired: "reason for invading" does not equal "condition for leaving". They are different things.
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5838226 - 07/09/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quoting your own term papers again?
No, I'm quoting Richard Nixon. Substitute Iraq for Vietnam and see if anything sounds familiar.
In January I could only conclude that the precipitate withdrawal of American forces from Vietnam would be a disaster not only for South Vietnam but for the United States and for the cause of peace.
We have adopted a plan which we have worked out in cooperation with the South Vietnamese for the complete withdrawal of all U.S. combat ground forces, and their replacement by South Vietnamese forces on an orderly scheduled timetable. This withdrawal will be made from strength and not from weakness. As South Vietnamese forces become stronger, the rate of American withdrawal can become greater.
I have not and do not intend to announce the timetable for our program. And there are obvious reasons for this decision which I am sure you will understand
http://www.usconstitution.com/richardnixon'svietnamization.htm
As has been explained to you several times, there were numerous reasons given for invading Iraq, not only WMDs.
But as you never seem to grasp no matter how many times it's explained to you, WMD was the only remotely legal excuse for launching a war of aggression. All the other excuses were obviously illegal which is why the WMD bullshine was pushed so hard.
Nor has anybody other than yourself offered the above as justification for invading Iraq.
You're confused. I said WMD was the excuse for invading Iraq.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5838432 - 07/09/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said:
Quoting your own term papers again?
No, I'm quoting Richard Nixon. Substitute Iraq for Vietnam and see if anything sounds familiar.
In January I could only conclude that the precipitate withdrawal of American forces from Vietnam would be a disaster not only for South Vietnam but for the United States and for the cause of peace.
We have adopted a plan which we have worked out in cooperation with the South Vietnamese for the complete withdrawal of all U.S. combat ground forces, and their replacement by South Vietnamese forces on an orderly scheduled timetable. This withdrawal will be made from strength and not from weakness. As South Vietnamese forces become stronger, the rate of American withdrawal can become greater.
I have not and do not intend to announce the timetable for our program. And there are obvious reasons for this decision which I am sure you will understand
http://www.usconstitution.com/richardnixon'svietnamization.htm
This was absent from your previous post, which is what I responded to. I also note that there isn't much mention in the above of any "hope" that the S. Vietnamese would be able to hold them off. "Withdrawal will be made from strength????" Oh we certainly had the strength to prevail, just not the will. This is what we called at the time "face saving bullshit." As I noted previously, and fully expected, you certainly were able to find one of those liars. And Nixon was a world champion liar. But nobody believed them then. Not even their dogs.
At any rate, the alleged term paper citation is this:
"Soon after taking office. President Richard Nixon introduced his policy of "vietnamization". The plan was to encourage the South Vietnamese to take more responsibility for fighting the war. It was hoped that this policy would eventually enable the United States to withdraw gradually all their soldiers from Vietnam."
You cited this as an authoritative source to illustrate my cluelessness, yet offered no link. Is it or is it not from either your or someone else's term paper? If not, where, pray tell, did it come from? I believe I've caught you doing this before.
Quote:
As has been explained to you several times, there were numerous reasons given for invading Iraq, not only WMDs.
But as you never seem to grasp no matter how many times it's explained to you, WMD was the only remotely legal excuse for launching a war of aggression. All the other excuses were obviously illegal which is why the WMD bullshine was pushed so hard.
Several nations have similarly concluded that that was one of several legally (what legally? The UN?)acceptable reasons. Failure to comply with the inspections was enough all by itself. Enough of this. It's been done over and over again.Quote:
Nor has anybody other than yourself offered the above as justification for invading Iraq.
You're confused. I said WMD was the excuse for invading Iraq.
"the justification for invading Iraq wasn't "To make the Iraqi security services stronger and then leave"."
You're the only person I ever saw put "make Iraqi security forces stronger" in the context of justification.
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Economist
in training
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5839387 - 07/09/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said:
True, true. But I still think the UN would have a better idea than TATU.
By my point was that this can't be backed up by anything. You can "think" the UN would do a better job in Iraq than TATU, or the US, or anyone, but there's no proof.
In 60 years of peacekeeping, decolonization, and nation building, the UN has failed to have 1 success story. Not ONE. Why should Iraqis trust an organization with such a history of failure?
Quote:
Alex213 said:
WHOA there. Lets's not make things TOO simplistic and pat for the sake of the argument. Each of those countries has a whole load of history behind them that you can't blame on the UN.
You mean like how it would be wrong to blame deaths based upon sectarian violence in Iraq on the us?
Quote:
Alex213 said:
Try and look at it from an Iraqi viewpoint rather than an american. Put yourself in an Iraqis shoes for a moment. Lets make it even more obvious, put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi who lost his family to american gunfire. Why might you prefer a UN presence in the street rather than a US one?
Are you an Iraqi? No? Then it's silly for you to claim to know "how they think".
As for me, if I was an Iraqi, prefering a UN presence in the street or a US one? Hmm...let's see...
The UN and the US both complained about corruption and oppression in my government, which I was powerless to change...but who actually DID something about it?
Furthermore, who would the UN send? The same peacekeepers that ESTABLISHED a child-prostitution ring in Bunia, Congo? Or just the ones who decapitated 13 year old girls after raping them in Sierra Leone? Maybe they'd send the same peacekeepers that happily stood by while the Rwanda genocide happened, armed but unwilling to intervene...
No thanks, I'll take the US forces.
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Economist
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5839407 - 07/09/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said:
It sets the example. If you commit a war crime - and starting a war of aggression is the ULTIMATE war crime - then you face justice.
And you honestly believe that President Bush deserved prosecution more than say...the government of Angola?
They started a war of aggression, committed massive human rights violations in the process, haven't even attempted to police their own military forces (when a US soldier commits a crime, he's brought to justice, not so in Angola).
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zappaisgod
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Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5839439 - 07/09/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The only war of aggression was instigated by Saddam. There was a cease fire with terms he was to abide by. He failed to abide. The war was resumed. Same war. What were you 7 years old for the Kuwait invasion, Alex? Did you get all of your knowledge of this from the Ward Churchills of the world?
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5839620 - 07/09/06 05:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The only war of aggression was instigated by Saddam. There was a cease fire with terms he was to abide by. He failed to abide. The war was resumed. Same war. What were you 7 years old for the Kuwait invasion, Alex? Did you get all of your knowledge of this from the Ward Churchills of the world?
Way to keep it civil zappa. How does age have anything to do with the history of a world event. I dont remember how the American Revolution took part because i wasnt born then but most people have a good idea of it. Your logic is flawed.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#5839914 - 07/09/06 06:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I was civil.
I have read and heard so much bullshit written about the seventies and what went on that I just shake my head in wonderment. Almost everybody I know who lived through it agrees with me. The same goes for the Iraq situation. Todays 20 somethings never knew that it was an absolutely no brainer that Saddam did a hideous thing invading Kuwait and had to be dealt with. You do know that he basicly lit the whole country on fire when he retreated, don't you? Or did you "forget" that part? That's just one example of shit that gets glossed over. Or the Kuwaiti prisoners he never released. No, it's very different when you experience something in real time as opposed to reading about it in your lefty-tinged texts. I do not mean to infer or impute in any way that I was part of any operation. I was just an aware individual when decisions were being made and news was happening. It is very different. You'll see.
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Alex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5841109 - 07/10/06 12:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I also note that there isn't much mention in the above of any "hope" that the S. Vietnamese would be able to hold them off.
Read it again.
Oh we certainly had the strength to prevail, just not the will. This is what we called at the time "face saving bullshit." As I noted previously, and fully expected, you certainly were able to find one of those liars. And Nixon was a world champion liar. But nobody believed them then. Not even their dogs.
What are you talking about? My point is the same story is being recycled from Vietnam for Iraq.
Several nations have similarly concluded that that was one of several legally (what legally? The UN?)acceptable reasons.
Source?
Failure to comply with the inspections was enough all by itself.
Wrong. That's why the UN refused to have anything to do with it.
You're the only person I ever saw put "make Iraqi security forces stronger" in the context of justification.
You're not making any sense. Staying there until the Iraqi security forces are stronger is the justification for staying in Iraq now. You claimed it was the justification for invading.
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Alex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
#5841121 - 07/10/06 12:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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By my point was that this can't be backed up by anything. You can "think" the UN would do a better job in Iraq than TATU, or the US, or anyone, but there's no proof.
So is there proof the US will?
In 60 years of peacekeeping, decolonization, and nation building, the UN has failed to have 1 success story. Not ONE. Why should Iraqis trust an organization with such a history of failure?
No, I'm not buying this. Just like I'm not buying you're idea that everything the US touches turns into a paradise.
You mean like how it would be wrong to blame deaths based upon sectarian violence in Iraq on the us?
If the US hadn't invaded would those deaths be happening or not?
Are you an Iraqi? No? Then it's silly for you to claim to know "how they think".
You don't have to be an Iraqi to know how you react when foreigners invade your country and rape and slaughter your family. You just have to be human.
The UN and the US both complained about corruption and oppression in my government, which I was powerless to change...but who actually DID something about it?
In the process turning the place into the most dangerous country on earth where gangs roam Baghdad pulling people out of cars and slaughtering them at will? I'm not sure I'd consider that a positive if I lived in Baghdad.
The same peacekeepers that ESTABLISHED a child-prostitution ring in Bunia, Congo? Or just the ones who decapitated 13 year old girls after raping them in Sierra Leone? Maybe they'd send the same peacekeepers that happily stood by while the Rwanda genocide happened, armed but unwilling to intervene...
No thanks, I'll take the US forces.
Yeah, the ones who rape 16 year olds and then slaughter their entire families, massacre civilians and shoot handicapped people in the face.
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Alex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5841127 - 07/10/06 12:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Todays 20 somethings never knew that it was an absolutely no brainer that Saddam did a hideous thing invading Kuwait and had to be dealt with. You do know that he basicly lit the whole country on fire when he retreated, don't you?
What is this? "Make up a different excuse every time your other excuse gets demolished?".
It's a no-brainer that Iraq wasn't invaded in 2003 because Saddam set the oil wells on fire in 1991. Not even Bush claimed that as an excuse.
I was just an aware individual when decisions were being made and news was happening. It is very different. You'll see.
You obviously wern't that aware. You hadn't even heard of Vietnamization before I told you about it.
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Redstorm
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5841710 - 07/10/06 09:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you're not buying that the UN can't fix Iraq, then show us a success story.
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Redstorm]
#5841759 - 07/10/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Too vague a question, too big a topic.
Here's a book that will give you more information (350 pages and this is just the first volume):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0833035894/202-6161480-8395844?v=glance&n=266239
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Redstorm]
#5841777 - 07/10/06 09:29 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not reading a book to answer a single question. If you think the UN can do a better job than the US, what history of the UN leads you to believe this?
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Redstorm]
#5841784 - 07/10/06 09:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well what do you mean by "success"? The US invasion of Iraq could be seen as a succes by some people and as a failure by others. The invasion of Afghanistan could be considered a success in one way and a failure in another. We could go on describing the successes and failures of different UN or US operations forever. There's no easy simple, pat answer.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5841791 - 07/10/06 09:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Stop beating around the bushes and give me an example of a nation that the UN built that has been stable afterwards.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Redstorm]
#5841804 - 07/10/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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El Salvador, Eastern Slavonia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Sierra Leone.
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