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 Telepylus
Babyman
Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 996
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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 Re: god proof  [Re: dblaney]
#5729393 - 06/09/06 12:56 AM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Different men have different views, "good"/"bad", "wholesome"/"unwholesome" are entirely subjective.
This statement is False.
We all know that Child Abuse, or Torturing people for example, is bad and unwholesome, and there are no two ways about it.
Just because maybe you yourself haven't devised a method to determine what is good or bad, doesn't mean that nobody else has either.
Good and Bad are not subjective, unless your trapped in a system where you can't describe what you're seeing, you can't correlate events and circumstances into clear answers of what is wholesome or unwholesome.
And especially if there is no one wholesome around you to give you any validation.
In our culture, often dishonesty & sinister deeds are greatly rewarded, while good deeds go unnoticed.
I'll tell you something else that isn't subjective.
A mother breastfeeding her child, or a fireman risking his own life to save an elderly man who he doesn't even know.
Can you say these are Evil deeds?
That this sort of wholesomeness is somehow wrong or bad?
There is a clear distinction between the soul of a person who yearns to nurture life, and a person who gets off on torturing it or destroying it.
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 dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
Basilides said:
Man, what happened to you in the last few weeks? 
You seem to have undergone a massive philosophical shift. The Jesus quote has been replaced by Rotton's founder 
Not too massive, but I have been reading a book that has shifted my metaphysical worldview and has helped get me more in touch with reality, I think.
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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We all know that Child Abuse, or Torturing people for example, is bad and unwholesome, and there are no two ways about it.
There are no two ways about it only because you aren't considering the other point of view. The man who abuses his child doesn't think he is bad. In fact he must think that it's an important thing and that some good will result. Otherwise he would be a sadist, and a sadist is someone who mistakenly thinks that the person being hurt actually derives pleasure from being hurt, probably from a poor psychological development. Either way, the abuser generally does not consider themself to be evil or bad.
Good and Bad are not subjective
Then would you be so kind as to define what is objectively and absolutely/universally good, and what is objectively and absolutely/universally bad?
A mother breastfeeding her child, or a fireman risking his own life to save an elderly man who he doesn't even know.
Can you say these are Evil deeds?
I could if the mother had AIDS and knew it, yet was breastfeeding anyways.
There is a clear distinction between the soul of a person who yearns to nurture life, and a person who gets off on torturing it or destroying it.
I think you're looking at things only in black and white. Destruction is just as much a part of nature as construction. It's folly to think that you are somehow above creation and destruction and can look down on them and declare one to be good and the other to be bad. They are interdependent and becoming attached to one and averse to the other generally results in suffering because nature keeps on destroying and keeps on creating.
Furthermore, if you simply look around the world and at history, you can see how different leaders have different (subjective) views on what is right and wrong. For instance, there have been men who had a view of what was right (such as a nation free of the Jews) and were willing to do anything to see that their view came to fruition. I'll bet you and I can both agree that the Holocaust was evil, but did Hitler think it was evil? No, I don't think so. He didn't wake up one morning and think to himself "Gee, I'm feeling really evil today, I think I'll exterminate an entire population or two." Rather, he did what he thought was right and necessary.
Also, you can't say that God is only Good. If you say that, and also say that God is omniscient and omnipotent, then how do you explain the presence of evil? Just from reading your post you can tell that you agree that there is evil. But if God is only Good then there wouldn't be evil. Thus we must conclude either there is no such God, or God doesn't discriminate between good and evil. If you choose the latter, then again, who are you to label something absolutely good or evil when even God doesn't do that? How do you know that such dividing and labelling isn't evil itself?
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Telepylus
Babyman
Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 996
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
#5730698 - 06/09/06 12:02 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Let me try to explain in a way that you can understand.
Let's take Osama Bin Ladin as an example
And set him right beside George Bush.
In the mind of extremist muslims like Osama Bin Ladin
America is evil
The way we take our liberties in the world is unwholesome to Osama.
So they attack us, causing destruction and killing innocents who most of them are really only trying to be good and raise their families the best way they know how.
So then George bush drops bombs on the terrorists, claiming that they are Evil- in fact he even used the word "evil" to describe them.
So the world kinda sees two factions, a Christian One, and a Muslim One.
Both of these men, Osama & George, they both believe that they are Holy, and that the other is Evil.
But the Truth of the matter is both are correct.
Both are evil.
They are not evil themselves, but they allow evil to move through them due to their timespace positions.
They both allowed themselves to be trapped in something they cannot get out of.
They are both examples of warriors who have succumbed to Dishonesty, and the Father of Lies.
If they held true to what is wholesome and right they would believe in the power of god, and therefore they wouldn't need weapons to fight with.
So, your ideas of the polarities of Good & Evil being generated by the Same God, this is true.
But your conclusion that this means everything is subjective or okay, is false.
Just because osama thinks he's right, or george thinks he's right, doesn't make it true.
Because only Honesty and Love ring True.
You asked what is universally good or bad, i've given many examples already.
Bad means assuming that you have the right to decide someone elses personal liberties.
God gave us free will for a reason, and to deny any other being personal liberties is to defy God.
And this is exactly what Osama Bin Ladin does, he's under control of Satan because he's trapped into a spacetime position that he cannot escape from. Like George being trapped in the Presidency.
Basically, if you see evil happening around you, it's really not your job to destroy it, because destruction is not honest, rearrangement is honest.
It doesn't take any skill to obliterate Life.
What takes skill is negotiating with Life.
A mother doesn't give her milk to destroy hunger, hunger cannot be destroyed only altered
Her milk is a creative wholesome force of creativity to the cells of her infants body & brain.
Destruction makes things unwhole by breaking them into primary constituents.
Creation makes things Whole, and together.
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Law of Love
Edited by Telepylus (06/09/06 12:09 PM)
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Destruction feeds life.
It's only ignorance and misunderstandings, not evil. If a baby takes a toy from another baby it is not cause it's inheritly evil. He or she just doesn't see the consequences.
Edited by dr_mandelbrot (06/09/06 12:30 PM)
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Telepylus
Babyman
Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 996
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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Re: god proof [Re: dorkus]
#5730803 - 06/09/06 12:38 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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not an accurate statement.
you could say Deconstruction feeds life.
Deconstruction is the wholesome way to reduce things to their primary elements.
Destruction is ordained upon things which are already broken in such a way that Deconstruction is a futile option.
Evil constructions will fall to destruction, and annihilation.
While wholesome things are deconstructed and recycled.
An atomic bomb blast will utterly destroy whatever it hits.
But the Wind & Water that deconstruct a stone into dust, is not destructive, it is just gently rearranging things by the might of God.
All things seek whole patterns, because whole patterns are strong to withstand destruction and deceitful patterns.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
#5731452 - 06/09/06 04:20 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said:
Quote:
Basilides said:
Man, what happened to you in the last few weeks?
You seem to have undergone a massive philosophical shift. The Jesus quote has been replaced by Rotton's founder
Not too massive, but I have been reading a book that has shifted my metaphysical worldview and has helped get me more in touch with reality, I think.
Hey - not everyone can escape the Wheel of Life in one lifetime, I guess 
--------------------
    
"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,674
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 13 hours, 38 minutes
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
#5731463 - 06/09/06 04:29 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said:
Ok I've just done both, and I didn't see anyone. What am I doing wrong?
You aren't deluding yourself... that is what you are doing wrong. You aren't suspossed to just engage in activity and directly perceive the experience of it, you are also suspossed to operate an abstract, mental program that will assign more meaning to it. Duh! 
Reality is reality, but it is also God when you delude yourself. 
   
Peace. 
--------------------
  
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 23,674
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 13 hours, 38 minutes
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
#5731467 - 06/09/06 04:30 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said:
To which I would have replied that if the Holy One is one, without a second, if It is nondual, then why bother saying that the Holy One is One or all that other jargon? It just becomes a tautology: "God is everything" = "Everything is everything".
Precisely. "God" is ineffective in representing any aspect of reality.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Telepylus
Babyman
Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 996
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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yes God = EveryThing is EveryThing
Man = HalfWay to EveryWhere
dblaney, it is possible for me to give you proof of God over the computer too, but you'd have to want it bad enough to follow my instructions.
have you ever done shrooms?
we'll call that Step 1.
before we continue,
can you handle Step 1 at least?
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
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Just what is reality?
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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
Basilides said:
Quote:
dblaney said:
Quote:
Basilides said:
Man, what happened to you in the last few weeks?
You seem to have undergone a massive philosophical shift. The Jesus quote has been replaced by Rotton's founder
Not too massive, but I have been reading a book that has shifted my metaphysical worldview and has helped get me more in touch with reality, I think.
Hey - not everyone can escape the Wheel of Life in one lifetime, I guess
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Reality is reality, but it is also God when you delude yourself.
Sweet! That means that I'm typing this message into God RIGHT NOW! Now how many people can say that? Eh? Eh?
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
Telepylus said:
dblaney, it is possible for me to give you proof of God over the computer too, but you'd have to want it bad enough to follow my instructions.
have you ever done shrooms?
we'll call that Step 1.
before we continue,
can you handle Step 1 at least?
Well sure! What's step 2?
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Telepylus
Babyman
Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 996
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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Quote:
Basilides said:
Just what is reality?
Reality can be anything.
But from our Human Perspective, reality is built of a Mutual Dream Network, bound together by people loving each other, and loving ideas, and loving life.
maybe this will help clarify the nature of how reality is constructed through Consciousness.
(And it must be first understood that there is only one thing in the universe: Consciousness. Even Atoms are conscious. All consciousness is is a feild of alternating Phi Ratio patterns moving through all things and connecting things into network.)
---------------------------------------------
ENOCHIAN AXIOMS.
1. Man, and every entity (thing) in existence, is in his (its) essence a monad. This monadic essence expresses itself as a subjective 'I' and an objective 'NOT-I'.
2. A monad's geometric equivalent is the sphere. The center is the 'I'. The surface of the sphere is the 'NOT-I'.
3. The 'I' is conscious individuality.
4. The 'NOT-I' is the world in which the 'I' finds itself at any given point in time and space.
5. Every geometric point in space is an 'I-NOT-I' monad in some stage of self-expression.
6. Any 'I' can communicate with any other 'I' only in so far as their 'NOT-I's' intersect.
7. A world is defined as a set of intersections of a host of 'NOT-I's' at any given point in time and space.
8. Subsets of 'I's' are mutually exclusive.
9. Subsets of 'NOT-I's' may be either exclusive or inclusive.
10. The monadic essence of each monad allows multitudinous expression, but no 'I' can ever separate itself from or exist independently of its 'NOT-I'.
THEOREMS OF ENOCHIAN PHYSICS.
1. Every person is an 'I-NOT-I' monad.
2. Every point in space is a consciousness center.
3. Energy flows from one cosmic plane or sub-plane to an adjacent cosmic plane or sub-plane through Laya centers, dimensionless points of space which serve as channels for the flow of energies and forces.
4. Spirit is unmanifested energy. Matter is manifested energy.
5. Every manifestation within space and time is dualistic.
6. Space, time, and consciousness come into existence simultaneously.
7. Every energy field and every force in our universe is directed by the True Will.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 1 year, 5 days
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
#5731684 - 06/09/06 05:43 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said:
Quote:
Basilides said:
Quote:
dblaney said:
Quote:
Basilides said:
Man, what happened to you in the last few weeks?
You seem to have undergone a massive philosophical shift. The Jesus quote has been replaced by Rotton's founder
Not too massive, but I have been reading a book that has shifted my metaphysical worldview and has helped get me more in touch with reality, I think.
Hey - not everyone can escape the Wheel of Life in one lifetime, I guess
So what book did you read?
I take it someone who bleeds, eats and shits wrote it? 
--------------------
"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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And it must be first understood that there is only one thing in the universe: Consciousness
Okay. In your post you acknowledge that there is an objective world (made up of things such as atoms).
Which came first, consciousness or the objective world?
1. If you say consciousness came first, then there would be a perceiving subject without any object to perceive. Furthermore, the object being perceived (the objective world) has a causal structure, so the only possible explanation by the "Self theory" would be that the objective world arose simultaneously with the Perceiver, consciousness. (see #3)
2. If you say that the perceived objective world came first, then you run into a problem: a perceived object cannot exist if there is no subject perceiving it - the term perceived object necessarily implies the presence of a perceiver.
3. If you say that consciousness and the objective world arose simultaneously, then you have the problem that two things that exist simultaneously cannot have any connection or relationship with each other. They cannot have the relationship of being cause and result, for example. This is because something that arises simultaneously with something else has no opportunity to be that second thing's cause. It only arises at precisely the same time as its supposed result, so how could it have produced that result? It would have had no time to do so. It can therefore only be that things that arise simultaneously do so independent of each other.
In this case, it would be impossible for the perceived object and the perceiving subject to be unrelated in the way that two things that come into existence simultaneously are unrelated, because the perceived object and perceiving subject are cause and result - the cause for there being a perceiving consciousness is that there is an object to perceive. If they arose simultaneously, however, they could not have such a relationship, because the perceived object would have no opportunity to cause the perceiving consciousness to arise.
So since consciousness and the objective world cannot exist sequentially OR simultaneously, and there is no other possibility, then we must conclude that neither consciousness nor the perceived objective world are inherently existent, since they necessarily depend on each other.
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
Basilides said:
Quote:
dblaney said:
Quote:
Basilides said:
Quote:
dblaney said:
Quote:
Basilides said:
Man, what happened to you in the last few weeks?
You seem to have undergone a massive philosophical shift. The Jesus quote has been replaced by Rotton's founder
Not too massive, but I have been reading a book that has shifted my metaphysical worldview and has helped get me more in touch with reality, I think.
Hey - not everyone can escape the Wheel of Life in one lifetime, I guess
So what book did you read?
I take it someone who bleeds, eats and shits wrote it?
Hehe, yeah. It's called "The Sun of Wisdom", an interpretation of the teachings of a man named Nagarjuna who lived in the second century and used logical argumentation to prove the Buddha's points.
I would highly recommend it. Or if you have more time, there is a 5 or 6 hundred page long book with an extremely in depth analysis of every verse.
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Telepylus
Babyman
Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 996
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
#5731879 - 06/09/06 06:37 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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i'll tell you what happens as the big bang unfolds.
you have the dimensions of space and time unfolding like 0=2, 0=2=3, 1+1=1, 3=4, etc... if you need examples of these concepts i'll provide them.
in this process you have what appears to be growth and expansion.
like a hole spilling out marbles, white and black or what you might call subjective and subjective aspects, male or female or positive & negative.
in this process two things will lose themselves in union to become a third thing altogether.
and it's through this interaction that makes it so hard to pinpoint where things are coming or going, where things are expanding or collapsing. because it is in fact doing both at the same time.
If you examine an inverted spheroid, what you're looking at is something which resembles the Sun, with the dense core as gravity, and the surface of spiraling energies, it is both pulling in energy through the spiral force pinwheels on the surface, toward the center(zero point, the moment of creation).
And simultaneously it can also spray yet unmanifest energy outward.
you'd have to rephrase question 3, or give me an example of what you mean.
Edited by Telepylus (06/09/06 06:54 PM)
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spud
I'm so fly.
Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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You do not prove God, you know God.
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